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20260920 063000 UTC
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[00:00:01] Venezuela has a government led by Dels Rodríguez, and the
[00:00:04] scenario began to look somewhat different, at least in the
[00:00:08] political economic spheres, especially
[00:00:11] with the United States, whose relationship took a 180-degree turn in
[00:00:14] diplomatic and commercial matters. But according to the Independent International
[00:00:18] Fact-Finding Mission of the United
[00:00:23] receive Adélcy Rodríguez now Nations, the structures responsible for repression
[00:00:25] remain intact. This is essentially the message of the
[00:00:29] new report, presented this Wednesday. There are improvements, but they are limited
[00:00:33] in human rights. There have been releases from prison, an amnesty
[00:00:36] law, a slightly greater margin for protests, public meetings
[00:00:40] and civil society participation, and the mission recognizes a significant
[00:00:43] decrease in long-term detentions and enforced
[00:00:47] disappearances, but this is where the list of reduced
[00:00:50] abuses ends. According to the mission, the state
[00:00:53] institutions responsible for repression, for serious
[00:00:57] human rights violations, and for crimes against humanity, remain
[00:01:00] intact. Here
[00:01:03] different governments, not only is the crux of the matter: reducing repression is not the
[00:01:06] same as dismantling the apparatus that made it possible. After
[00:01:11] society, what January 3rd, the non-governmental organization Foro Penal reports
[00:01:14] 1,073 releases and pardons up to September
[00:01:17] 14th. However, it still registers
[00:01:20] 344 people deprived of liberty.
[00:01:24] The mission itself estimates that the figure
[00:01:27] give sustainability to everything could even reach 500. The
[00:01:29] report also speaks of complaints of torture, ill-treatment,
[00:01:33] and mentioned cases reported in the Maximum Security Penitentiary
[00:01:36] El Rodeo 1 and in Fort
[00:01:39] Huaikipuro, noting that after January 3rd, it
[00:01:43] identified a pattern of arbitrary short-term arrests
[00:01:46] aimed at intimidating opposition activists, journalists,
[00:01:50] and other members of civil society. It's an important
[00:01:54] difference: the number of people incarcerated for long
[00:01:57] periods can decrease, and at the same time, a structure capable of
[00:02:01] yes, it started intimidating can be maintained. In March, the mission had already warned that the
[00:02:04] repressive structures were mutating, they said, to stay in
[00:02:08] power. The mission
[00:02:12] the data, ready for whatever also warns about the lack of official information. There is not enough clarity about who was
[00:02:15] released, where some of the detained people are, or what their
[00:02:19] legal situation is. And that also says something about the
[00:02:22] unconstitutionality. When there isn't even sufficiently clear public
[00:02:25] information to know who is detained and under what conditions, it is
[00:02:29] almost impossible to verify the veracity of official data. The
[00:02:33] other element is that of the collectives. The mission's investigation
[00:02:36] describes them as a central component of the repressive apparatus
[00:02:39] and a broader system of social control, pointing to
[00:02:43] different degrees of coordination or convergence with state
[00:02:46] authorities and security
[00:02:48] important issue and what forces. The report lists three conditions that
[00:02:52] guarantee true change in the
[00:02:55] focus, system. Repressive structures must be dismantled. It is
[00:02:57] necessary to guarantee judicial independence, and it is
[00:03:00] imperative to properly sanction human rights
[00:03:04] violators. While this happens, for the mission, and
[00:03:07] I quote, any opening will remain fragile and
[00:03:10] reversible.
[00:03:13] The government of the acting president of Venezuela responded to the UN mission's report
[00:03:16] this very Friday. Its delegation to the United Nations in
[00:03:19] Geneva defended what they call improvements in the human
[00:03:23] rights situation in the country, such as the amnesty law or the release of
[00:03:27] up to 8,743 detainees, and requested that the
[00:03:31] allowed to record UN mission, created in 2019, not
[00:03:34] us. Short break and we'll be back with extend its mandate. That is to say, a change of government can be a
[00:03:38] political event, but
[00:03:39] notes of everything that is said, everything that dismantling a repressive apparatus is a radical
[00:03:42] unconstitutional transformation, and according to this report, that second
[00:03:46] part is still pending.
[00:03:49] But is this possible with the government of Delsi Rodríguez? We discuss
[00:03:52] it with my next
[00:03:53] guest.
[00:04:00] I welcome María Eloisa Quintero, a member of the Independent International Fact-Finding
[00:04:03] Mission on Venezuela, who joins us from Geneva.
[00:04:07] We especially thank her for staying up so late
[00:04:10] to be with us, because it's past 3 in the morning there.
[00:04:14] Thank you, Marisa, for being with us. The first thing
[00:04:17] I want to try to make clear is
[00:04:21] this difference between the change of government, between having
[00:04:25] released several political prisoners, and the structure that
[00:04:28] is still in force. That is, if at any
[00:04:31] point the current government of Venezuela wanted to return to the previous situation,
[00:04:35] it has all the means to do so again.
[00:04:39] Hello, Iván, good afternoon. Yes, what worries
[00:04:42] the mission, and you have described it very well, is
[00:04:46] that while we see changes that are very
[00:04:49] positive, eh, all the
[00:04:51] mechanisms, the modus operandi,
[00:04:55] the regulations, that is, all the tools
[00:04:59] that support
[00:05:02] the acts and violations that we have been
[00:05:06] the declarations of reporting are in force. Some authorities
[00:05:09] have changed, some
[00:05:13] responsible for certain areas have been moved or transferred to
[00:05:16] other areas, but that does not mean that the
[00:05:19] practices have ceased. So we therefore called
[00:05:23] for deeper change. Now, is a deeper change possible
[00:05:27] with the same people? Because the person who is acting president until January
[00:05:31] 3rd was vice president and even had charge of Sebin, which is one of
[00:05:34] the main organizations that you question, right? Yes,
[00:05:37] we have
[00:05:41] confidence that deep changes will begin to be made. They have
[00:05:45] put a person in charge, we are not
[00:05:49] political bodies to make that kind of decision, but
[00:05:52] we are here to show facts, which is why it's called a fact-finding
[00:05:56] mission. The idea is
[00:05:58] to bring investigation results,
[00:06:02] data, figures, patterns,
[00:06:04] modus operandi,
[00:06:07] perpetrators, key actors that allow and have
[00:06:10] allowed repression, with the hope that the authorities of the
[00:06:15] the international community, will also make the necessary
[00:06:19] decisions so that this does not perpetuate and so
[00:06:22] that it does not repeat itself in the
[00:06:24] future.
[00:06:27] When we talk about these human rights violations, about repression,
[00:06:30] specifically what are we talking about? What were you able to document?
[00:06:33] We were able to document, as we have been
[00:06:36] doing during these previous years, that the
[00:06:39] main human rights violations continued.
[00:06:42] Our report covers from September
[00:06:45] of last year to August of this year. We have been
[00:06:49] registering in recent times, we have direct contact with
[00:06:52] victims, with relatives, with
[00:06:55] witnesses, with those called insiders, that is, people who
[00:06:59] having belonged to the
[00:07:01] structure dare to converse with ex
[00:07:05] with members of the collectives, as you pointed out, and
[00:07:08] these people describe from their position
[00:07:11] and provide evidence, elements and so on, and we have many
[00:07:15] registered cases, for example, on arbitrary
[00:07:18] short-term detentions, as I said, there are disappearances, there are
[00:07:21] deaths in custody,
[00:07:25] eh, we also see cases of
[00:07:28] torture, which is what hurts the most,
[00:07:30] because atrocity in this
[00:07:34] aspect, let's say, never ceases to surprise. We have
[00:07:37] unfortunately found new forms of torture. We always knew
[00:07:41] of some cases and... we had been reporting them, but now on this
[00:07:44] occasion we were able to register more
[00:07:48] and more declarations of having been
[00:07:51] victims of torture. We accredited them, and although this
[00:07:54] number increased because people have more
[00:07:58] security or because they have been released and were able to come to us to
[00:08:01] tell their suffering,
[00:08:05] the truth is that in the
[00:08:07] period we are analyzing, although we received
[00:08:11] 53 accredited complaints, 37
[00:08:15] are from the reporting period, the others
[00:08:18] are from previous periods. So we are concerned about
[00:08:22] all of this, which is the manifestation
[00:08:26] of a regime, a situation
[00:08:29] of great tension, where in the
[00:08:32] current context that struggle for power is adapting,
[00:08:35] but the practices, because there is a movement, of course, because there is a change
[00:08:39] of interim government, there is
[00:08:42] a call to economic forces for
[00:08:45] investments, it is a time of great
[00:08:48] opportunity, but these times of opportunity also readjust
[00:08:52] the tensions of legitimate and illegitimate powers, and in
[00:08:56] that readjustment what we have seen is that for now
[00:09:00] the constant is one, the forms and modalities of continuing with human
[00:09:03] rights violations. Now,
[00:09:06] in addition to these releases and so on, there is a political dialogue currently
[00:09:10] led by the president of the
[00:09:12] national assembly, the brother of the acting president, and press
[00:09:16] freedom and other issues are part of that,
[00:09:20] part of that dialogue. I mean, if that dialogue prospers, these situations
[00:09:23] should end, or in reality, what ends up
[00:09:26] happening is this situation that you describe, that
[00:09:29] well, there are releases and so on, but the apparatus is still
[00:09:32] in place. We, as a
[00:09:36] mission, understand that all dialogue
[00:09:39] is positive, no,
[00:09:42] it must be mentioned that it is a dialogue between
[00:09:45] the government and a sector of civil society, it is not an
[00:09:49] integrated composition,
[00:09:52] but also it is
[00:09:55] very important to emphasize that in the
[00:09:59] dialogue there are issues that have not been put on the table,
[00:10:03] for example, specifically the issue of human rights
[00:10:06] violations, that is why we call
[00:10:10] and urge that within this dialogue process, which
[00:10:12] must always be positive, it be pluralized, but at the
[00:10:16] same time, and by pluralized I mean, the victims must be there, the
[00:10:20] figures must be there, the patterns must be there, and respect
[00:10:23] for human rights must be a central
[00:10:27] issue, not the neutralization of all the
[00:10:31] practices that lead to this situation, and above all, the
[00:10:34] victims. No, that's right.
[00:10:37] María Luisa, we're going to take a break now and then we'll continue discussing this
[00:10:40] topic. We're going to delve a little deeper into the interim government of Venezuela's response
[00:10:44] and what can be done from here on. We'll take a break and when
[00:10:47] we return here on Conclusiones, I'll continue talking with María Luisa Quintero, a member of the
[00:10:51] Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on Venezuela.
[00:14:25] We continue here in Conclusiones, dialoguing with María Loisa Quintero. She is a member of the Independent International
[00:14:28] Fact-Finding Mission on Venezuela, and we continue
[00:14:32] talking about this report that they have produced. María
[00:14:35] Luisa, I wanted to ask you about the response that the interim government of
[00:14:39] Venezuela has given to this work. They have put forward
[00:14:43] that they are doing things and
[00:14:46] they have also asked that the mission not be extended. How do you take
[00:14:50] their response?
[00:14:53] The mission has been working since 2019. I am a
[00:14:56] member, like the other two, of
[00:14:59] this period, but it is a response that we have received since
[00:15:02] then, so it doesn't surprise
[00:15:06] us. It is only our
[00:15:09] job to emphasize that we are independent, that the elements
[00:15:13] are all accredited. You can see all the mission's reports during
[00:15:17] these years and particularly in this period. It is one report
[00:15:21] and two investigation documents that are available on the website and that
[00:15:24] contain all the evidence,
[00:15:27] the citations,
[00:15:31] the victims, etc. That is, what we provide
[00:15:34] are facts based on direct
[00:15:37] sources. And at the same time, another important thing
[00:15:40] is that we point out all the positive
[00:15:44] aspects, that is, all those enumerations
[00:15:47] of changes that have been occurring, like the
[00:15:50] amnesty law. We also point out to what extent they have
[00:15:53] reached and if they have been efficient and are
[00:15:56] transparent and what remains to be done. I also call
[00:16:00] to look at all the reflections
[00:16:03] but especially the very specific recommendations.
[00:16:07] Concrete ones to be able to take steps forward. That is to
[00:16:10] say, we focus on contributing
[00:16:14] for those who want to make decisions and have the political will
[00:16:17] to review these reports and find them
[00:16:20] useful. From this response given by this
[00:16:24] administration, do you believe that will
[00:16:26] exists? Not so much, and we will wait for the
[00:16:30] actions. There have been no changes today. Coincidentally,
[00:16:34] precisely at this moment
[00:16:37] that we are saying all these things, they gave permission for the first time in a
[00:16:41] very long time to
[00:16:44] the Red Cross to enter the prisons. So I
[00:16:47] think things are always slowly moving. What we need
[00:16:51] to do is emphasize how volatile
[00:16:55] some of the changes are and highlight what
[00:16:59] those structural modifications are that will
[00:17:04] we are all trying to improve.
[00:17:09] Part of the government's response has been to ask that you
[00:17:13] not extend your mission in Venezuela. You are not there to
[00:17:16] document this. Can anyone tell
[00:17:18] this?
[00:17:21] Civil society has a lot of history,
[00:17:24] that is, Venezuela has a strong and brave
[00:17:27] civil society, but they themselves call
[00:17:30] for support for the mandate of our mission. We believe
[00:17:34] it is still necessary and we hope for the renewal of
[00:17:38] the mandate that will be discussed these days
[00:17:42] here in Geneva, and we hope that it materializes.
[00:17:45] The current mandate has ended, has expired, when does it expire, let's say, how are the
[00:17:48] dates, sorry. It expires in September and
[00:17:52] it is normally renewed for 2 years, it was renewed for
[00:17:55] one year once, so we have the
[00:17:58] support of a large part of the international community that
[00:18:02] always waits to receive the reports, to see
[00:18:05] the results of them and to evaluate if it is
[00:18:08] necessary to continue in this
[00:18:12] role. We consider it vital, no, it is
[00:18:16] vital for the reasons you highlighted and many others. We must
[00:18:19] provide objective, independent support, which is our role,
[00:18:23] objective and independent, on very technical issues,
[00:18:26] yes, but always keeping society in
[00:18:32] yes, the victims, because what we do is investigate to
[00:18:35] ensure that victims have justice,
[00:18:39] and that conditions can be given
[00:18:42] to hold those who are accused
[00:18:46] accountable. Now, you have investigated,
[00:18:49] documented, produced the report, and the data
[00:18:52] is there. Now, who can do something with all of this? Who
[00:18:56] should and who can, I mean, if not the current
[00:19:00] government of Venezuela, can anyone else do something, can they force
[00:19:04] these changes that you point out to begin to happen?
[00:19:08] Yes, we and currently have,
[00:19:11] let's say, direct
[00:19:14] contact, for example, with the International Criminal Court
[00:19:18] because there has always been a cooperative relationship, and everything that
[00:19:22] one works on is taken into account. Also with the
[00:19:25] Inter-American Court, we have had the opportunity to meet with
[00:19:29] its authorities, and this serves as support for the cases that are
[00:19:33] presented one by one and need to be resolved. For example, the Inter-American Court
[00:19:36] currently has around 19 cases, if I remember
[00:19:40] correctly, that are
[00:19:43] awaiting sentencing. So the mapping of the
[00:19:47] reality, beyond the data that they are
[00:19:50] evaluating case by case, is also
[00:19:54] useful. On the other hand, civil
[00:19:57] society, the international community, and the
[00:20:00] national government itself, in each of its institutions, such as the
[00:20:03] prosecutor's office and so on, have this available. But if the
[00:20:07] local situation and justice in the nation,
[00:20:11] Venezuela, is delayed or
[00:20:14] still cannot be deepened, there is always
[00:20:17] an opportunity for universal justice. Yes, universal
[00:20:21] jurisdiction. At this moment, what does universal
[00:20:24] jurisdiction mean? That crimes against humanity can be, let's say,
[00:20:27] investigated and prosecuted in any other
[00:20:31] jurisdiction, because they are universal. At this moment in
[00:20:34] Argentina there is a very important case
[00:20:38] that is for an event that occurred in Venezuela
[00:20:41] and an extradition was requested for a person
[00:20:44] who is and was detained in Spain. This
[00:20:47] is extradition to Argentina.
[00:20:50] and it is by exercise of universal jurisdiction, so there are many
[00:20:53] ways to use this, which is
[00:20:56] facts, fact-finding, no.
[00:20:59] Finally, María, thinking a bit about this change that
[00:21:03] the United States has had regarding Venezuela, some economic sanctions have even been
[00:21:07] eliminated,
[00:21:09] eh, it has been confirmed that Donald Trump will
[00:21:13] in the framework of the United Nations General Assembly, also
[00:21:17] informally, but that they will meet,
[00:21:20] I mean, does all this complicate your work a bit, make it more
[00:21:24] difficult, do you end up being somewhat the dissidents of this
[00:21:28] new narrative that wants to be imposed on Venezuela, how does all
[00:21:31] that pressure from the United States operate on your
[00:21:35] work? Without a doubt, we can be
[00:21:39] an uncomfortable mission, but we can also be a useful
[00:21:43] mission, no. So it all depends on how the
[00:21:46] authorities want to see us. I think
[00:21:50] there's a point we haven't discussed, which is the
[00:21:53] report on the collectives, and I'd like to dedicate myself to this because it also has to do with
[00:21:57] the interests of other governments.
[00:21:59] The collectives are armed civilian groups that
[00:22:03] have been in Venezuela for a long time
[00:22:07] and they undergo a mutation,
[00:22:10] they go through different stages of historical development,
[00:22:14] but as armed civilian groups, they were
[00:22:17] born with an ideology of strong support
[00:22:20] for the Bolivarian revolution, but currently
[00:22:23] they have a very large shock
[00:22:26] force that at the same time we have been able
[00:22:29] to demonstrate with evidence, according
[00:22:33] to United Nations standards, that is, we have enough evidence to
[00:22:37] say that they have a direct link with the state
[00:22:40] and in that direct link with the state they exercise
[00:22:43] delegated functions
[00:22:46] of intelligence, security and everything you mentioned
[00:22:50] in the introduction, but also
[00:22:53] I invite you to read the report, but
[00:22:57] they also have a relationship with illicit
[00:22:59] activities, yes, and this is a very
[00:23:03] important point that we want to emphasize because
[00:23:07] illicit economies are always growing,
[00:23:10] but when there is a significant inflow
[00:23:14] of capital, such as the opening of a market
[00:23:18] or massive investment in certain sectors such as the mining sector, the
[00:23:22] oil sector, etc., that is a great advantage and opportunity for the
[00:23:25] country that attracts many
[00:23:27] actors, and not only legitimate actors, but
[00:23:31] also illicit actors, so the
[00:23:34] issue of collectives must be an
[00:23:38] we point out in our reports, because every legitimate
[00:23:41] actor must have information and legal
[00:23:45] security and not be at the disposal of
[00:23:49] illicit actors
[00:23:51] who instrumentalize civilian groups for their
[00:23:55] objectives. So I think we can be
[00:23:58] uncomfortable, as I was telling Iván just now, but we can also be very
[00:24:01] useful to project what the risk
[00:24:05] areas are that should be taken into account if we want to
[00:24:08] invest, if we want to move forward. María
[00:24:12] Luisa, we have run out of time, there is so much more to discuss. Thank you very much for being with
[00:24:15] us. That was María Quintero, a member of the International Independent Fact-Finding
[00:24:19] Mission on Venezuela. Thank you for being with
[00:24:24] the
[00:24:24] end.
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[00:30:48] everyone.
[00:30:51] We live on a beautiful planet, we have to
[00:30:53] keep it alive from any aspect of
[00:30:57] society, everyone has a voice to give.