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20261012 050000 UTC
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[00:00:02] I am Darío Claim in Montevideo, we are
[00:00:05] CNN. Forum with Senate candidate James
[00:00:08] Talarico, a face-to-face meeting with voters, unfiltered, unedited,
[00:00:12] will the Democratic hopeful win in a Republican
[00:00:15] state? CNN forum with James
[00:00:18] Talarico on Wednesday on
[00:00:20] CNN.
[00:00:25] We are CNN, the world leader in
[00:00:28] news.
[00:00:43] Hello, welcome to Mexico pina, it's a pleasure to greet you on this occasion to address a
[00:00:47] topic that affects all of us who live in cities, in large
[00:00:51] cities, not only in Spain, where the
[00:00:54] crisis has broken out, of course, the housing
[00:00:57] crisis, following an event that was already brewing.
[00:01:00] It is important for young people to protest and the case of Mari Carmen has unleashed everything
[00:01:04] we have seen, that is, much larger protests,
[00:01:08] governmental actions, reactions, the death of
[00:01:11] Marie Carmen, unfortunately,
[00:01:15] as a result of her eviction and, well, early elections requested by the Spanish
[00:01:18] Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez, as a result of all this, we are going to talk about the issue, where we are
[00:01:22] right now in terms of
[00:01:24] market does not work like the tortilla housing in Latin America, in large cities, because I tell you, this issue
[00:01:27] was already brewing with different manifestations,
[00:01:31] gentrification on the one hand, lack of access, high cost of
[00:01:34] housing, and we have a group of specialists who will help us
[00:01:40] sacralization of understand the phenomenon a little. This afternoon we are joined by María del Pilar Álvarez, architect, urban planner,
[00:01:43] academic at the Ibero-American University,
[00:01:46] thank you, how are you, thank you, Silvia Emmanuel, and
[00:01:49] she is regional coordinator of the Latin American office of the International Coalition for Habitat, Silvia,
[00:01:53] thank you, welcome, thank you for the invitation,
[00:01:57] we are joined by, lawyer, master in human rights and
[00:02:01] democratization from the Externado University of Colombia, thank you for being with
[00:02:04] us, welcome Carla, thank you for being here remotely and thank you for joining
[00:02:08] this panel, Silvia, let's see, the problem has many
[00:02:12] aspects, uh, lack of access to housing, I think that is the main one, from
[00:02:16] there many other things are triggered in different manifestations and yes,
[00:02:20] let's say that in recent years we have effectively seen, as you well said,
[00:02:23] this great housing crisis brewing, which is something that has
[00:02:27] become very evident in countries like Spain and
[00:02:30] Italy, but it also obviously has its
[00:02:34] effects, its reflections here, and we have talked a lot
[00:02:37] about the fact that in recent years what we have seen for different
[00:02:40] reasons has been the disconnection that has been
[00:02:43] created between housing prices and salaries,
[00:02:47] so a very recent report by the United
[00:02:52] crimes related Nations, UN-Habitat, a report on cities, tells us that this
[00:02:55] relationship between housing price and income in
[00:02:58] 2010 was, for example, 9.5, in
[00:03:02] 2023 it was already 11.7%.
[00:03:04] 11.7%.
[00:03:07] It is important to see that in 2010 we had already passed the great housing
[00:03:11] bubble crisis that was mainly experienced in the United States and Europe,
[00:03:15] even so, we had a
[00:03:18] slightly closer relationship between
[00:03:21] housing prices and salaries. What I
[00:03:25] would say today, as many specialists say, is that this
[00:03:28] disconnection leads precisely to housing that is always
[00:03:32] more unattainable, always more
[00:03:35] difficult to buy, to rent, to
[00:03:38] remain where people work. This in Mexico City is
[00:03:42] esto en la ciudad de México se
[00:03:45] the city and all reflected very much in the fact that we still have jobs
[00:03:48] concentrated in the center, in large
[00:03:52] cities, and most people live 2
[00:03:56] hours away because the price of housing, which is obviously
[00:03:58] linked to the price of land, is unattainable. That is
[00:04:02] a little bit, let's say, the situation we are in
[00:04:06] right now. It is a fundamentally urban phenomenon of
[00:04:09] urban hyperconcentration, it's not,
[00:04:12] another vision, which is may I answer, it's a phenomenon
[00:04:15] that's not just one aspect, there's the
[00:04:19] situation with the housing crisis and other
[00:04:22] phenomena around this. In
[00:04:25] this sense, it's a structural problem and
[00:04:28] being a structural problem, it's not only the
[00:04:32] concentration of employment in city centers, where
[00:04:35] it implies a mobility of
[00:04:38] the vast majority of those who work, millions of people towards city
[00:04:42] centers, speaking not only of Mexico City but also of other
[00:04:45] urban centers, but there's also the issue
[00:04:49] of, uh, precisely the distribution of land use,
[00:04:52] there's the issue of real estate pressure, there's the
[00:04:56] issue of, uh, precisely social
[00:04:59] justice towards the right to have decent
[00:05:03] discussed is how to address the issue of already an experience, the cradle of housing, it's a multi- factorial phenomenon,
[00:05:07] definitely, and right now, what is
[00:05:10] very striking is how at this moment, it's not
[00:05:14] only that this housing situation is exploding, but
[00:05:17] also that from a global
[00:05:20] point of view, this issue is not
[00:05:23] exclusive to "poor"
[00:05:26] countries, in quotes, because I don't like that
[00:05:30] term at all, but many times it is said that the problem of cities and
[00:05:33] the scarcity and housing crisis is for countries
[00:05:37] that have less, and no, the problem is global and
[00:05:40] it is impacting in a very special way
[00:05:44] Europe, Asia,
[00:05:47] Oceania, in Sydney they also have a big problem in
[00:05:50] this regard, and of course in the United States, so it is a
[00:05:54] multifactorial and very structural problem, yes, it is concentrated in urban areas,
[00:05:57] fundamentally, no, well, the thing is
[00:06:00] that it can be, and this is also
[00:06:04] often misunderstood, the issue that the problem of housing and the housing crisis is
[00:06:07] a quantitative phenomenon, that is, they are not building
[00:06:11] enough houses,
[00:06:14] and therefore there is a housing deficit,
[00:06:16] exactly,
[00:06:19] and what is social housing, what is affordable housing,
[00:06:22] and that's where the problem of housing
[00:06:26] affordability comes from, how much of the
[00:06:28] family income is being allocated
[00:06:32] to rent, that's one of the things that is
[00:06:35] currently making it impossible for
[00:06:39] young people in Europe, what is happening is that
[00:06:42] generationally, young people do not have this
[00:06:45] hope of family emancipation
[00:06:48] because what young people
[00:06:50] earn is not enough to
[00:06:54] pay for rent, or they spend 90%
[00:06:57] of their income on rent, giving up their
[00:07:00] jobs, and a very peculiar social phenomenon is happening
[00:07:04] right now, that young men and
[00:07:07] women in Europe are emancipating from their
[00:07:11] homes after 30
[00:07:14] years because there's no way that with their
[00:07:17] work income they can afford it, and something similar is happening here in Mexico,
[00:07:20] yes, it's also being recorded, let's see, Carla, we want your point of view
[00:07:23] as well, well, to summarize what has already been said,
[00:07:27] it is evidently a multifactorial phenomenon, therefore there
[00:07:31] is no single solution, but
[00:07:34] rather solutions, it is not possible to understand the housing crisis
[00:07:37] even with only one manifestation of its problems, such as the
[00:07:41] issue of rent or the price of buying a house, which yes,
[00:07:45] of course, is a fundamental part, but the housing crisis also
[00:07:48] covers other aspects, such as, for example, we were
[00:07:52] seeing a few weeks ago the whole issue of the
[00:07:56] evictions that began to occur in Mexico City, the whole issue of real
[00:07:59] estate mafias, uh, the whole issue of
[00:08:04] to housing and property, as well as other types of
[00:08:07] problems such as discrimination in access to
[00:08:11] housing, either for purchase or rent,
[00:08:14] abuses that occur by landlords and tenants, among many other
[00:08:18] manifestations, it is evidently a global problem, occurring in
[00:08:21] different countries around the world, but it must also be
[00:08:25] noted that the countries in which there have been
[00:08:29] advances in addressing this problem have been countries that have
[00:08:32] understood that land must be understood as a common
[00:08:35] good, as a
[00:08:39] resource that must be managed, that must be
[00:08:43] given to everyone, as a resource that must be managed rather than
[00:08:47] simply as property, no, so,
[00:08:50] although it is happening all over the world, it is not happening equally in all countries,
[00:08:54] it coincides that it is also happening in countries of the global north, there are problems in
[00:08:57] Germany, there are problems in England, in the United States, but
[00:09:01] there are very differentiated aspects compared to Latin
[00:09:04] American countries and even in Spain, the situation in Spain
[00:09:08] is serious and it is not comparable, let's say comparisons
[00:09:11] are, it seems to me, useful
[00:09:14] to identify problems and patterns, but not to measure which
[00:09:18] is the most serious, but there are factors in Spain that are not present in other
[00:09:21] European countries, and it is true that there are also elements
[00:09:25] in Mexico and in Latin America that are different from
[00:09:28] these crises, but I agree with what my
[00:09:32] colleagues commented, well, we will continue talking about each of these
[00:09:35] topics to try to understand a little bit what those differences are, I understand
[00:09:39] that comparisons are very difficult, but but I think it will help us to understand a little bit the
[00:09:43] problems we experience in each of our countries and of course to be living in Spain, we'll be back with
[00:09:47] more, in a moment here at Mizcopido.
[00:11:08] Yes, yes, it's clear, and it's very good that you come back, you
[00:11:12] said it at the beginning of the program, saying, well, assuming that
[00:11:15] this transition happens because there are a series of
[00:11:19] questions that you have explained very well, so that, that right away
[00:11:22] means, well, maybe this
[00:11:25] is not as immediate as we think. Second, the point of
[00:11:28] transparency, of maintaining transparency, which
[00:11:32] well, Bernanke got us dancing, who has been
[00:11:35] tremendously a positive asset and a
[00:11:38] great asset for the institution, and then fundamentally
[00:11:42] the structure of a
[00:11:45] strong Fed.
[00:11:48] That complexity it has right now, regionally,
[00:11:51] is a strength. Forum with Senate candidate James
[00:12:32] Talarico, a face-to-face meeting
[00:12:36] with voters, unfiltered, unedited, will the Democratic
[00:12:39] hopeful win in a Republican state? CNN and
[00:12:43] Jubil forum with James Talarico on Wednesday on
[00:12:45] CNN.
[00:14:05] We continue talking about housing, about the problems of housing
[00:14:09] that have been unleashed and triggered, and since
[00:14:12] each of you has spoken, I remember these problems come from a long time ago,
[00:14:16] that is, as was also said in Mexico, at the beginning of the year
[00:14:20] we started with the issue of evictions by even criminal
[00:14:23] organizations that take properties and don't want to leave,
[00:14:27] so, there are different problems that we experience in
[00:14:30] cities, particularly, this, that doesn't mean that other places don't have
[00:14:33] these problems, but it's not just a problem of lack of
[00:14:37] housing, of lack of solutions, absolutely, I think that
[00:14:40] indeed, when we talk about the housing crisis,
[00:14:43] immediately two avenues of debate open up,
[00:14:46] and it's very difficult to reconcile them in some
[00:14:50] way, I think it's almost impossible. On the one
[00:14:53] hand, there's always a part of the population, since we have
[00:14:57] a great property-owning culture, which has been built up over the years
[00:15:01] and which has suggested that, let's say, the most
[00:15:04] desirable thing would be for all of us to own a home,
[00:15:08] and other forms of access to housing, such as renting, have been seen for
[00:15:12] a very long time as
[00:15:14] not so desirable, something that does
[00:15:17] not satisfy the right to adequate housing, there's a lot of cultural
[00:15:21] aspect to that, there's a lot of cultural aspect to that.
[00:15:25] Obviously, there's also a lot of policies that have promoted, especially in the
[00:15:28] 90s, the purchase of
[00:15:32] owned housing, so we surely
[00:15:35] have a very
[00:15:38] important, very serious issue of this type, which has led
[00:15:42] us to think that only owned housing is the right to housing,
[00:15:45] so to speak, no, all other, all other formulas
[00:15:48] have been very marginalized, when there are many countries in which
[00:15:52] housing cooperatives have been talked about, other formulas have been talked about to
[00:15:56] access also obviously public rent, which when
[00:15:59] controlled can satisfy the right to housing, but
[00:16:02] I was saying, there is always a tendency to look at the housing
[00:16:06] crisis from the perspective, as you said, of a lack of housing,
[00:16:09] that more housing must be built and by building more housing
[00:16:13] we solve the problem, and this is a vision
[00:16:16] normally of the real estate sector, so to speak,
[00:16:20] of some kind of economist, but unfortunately sometimes it is
[00:16:23] majority, especially in some spaces of power, so to
[00:16:27] speak, those who can speak in certain
[00:16:31] relevant places where decisions are made,
[00:16:34] normally carry this type of message, a message that from our
[00:16:37] point of view, from human rights, from organizations, is
[00:16:41] equivocal, it is wrong, because the housing
[00:16:45] market, like any market, does not function simply
[00:16:48] by flooding,
[00:16:51] not by more, by more houses and
[00:16:54] then we flood with more housing and thus reduce the
[00:16:58] price, the problem is that the housing
[00:17:02] market, land is limited and above
[00:17:05] all today housing is traded on the stock
[00:17:09] market, nobody has an interest in its
[00:17:13] price being reduced and lowered, and on the other hand
[00:17:16] we have the organizations, the people on the
[00:17:20] street, obviously, let's say progressive
[00:17:23] governments in some way we could perhaps
[00:17:26] say that they are proposing that it is good to
[00:17:30] build more housing, more affordable housing, more social
[00:17:33] housing, public rent, but that
[00:17:36] we should also start to control the market, something that was
[00:17:39] done in the last century, that is, there are many countries that faced
[00:17:43] real estate speculation, that tried to avoid vacant lots
[00:17:46] that, let's say, imposed higher taxes
[00:17:50] precisely on underutilized housing, but
[00:17:54] then came the Thatcher era, the era,
[00:17:57] let's say, of harsh neoliberalism, in which it was
[00:18:00] proposed that no, the state had to withdraw, that we should not have seen
[00:18:04] these controls, that the most relevant thing was
[00:18:08] that we all had freedom to buy, freedom to produce,
[00:18:11] freedom of the market. Let's see,
[00:18:13] María, you took the word from me at this
[00:18:17] moment, because precisely,
[00:18:19] speaking of rights, there is the right to the city and there is the
[00:18:23] right to housing, okay, now we would have
[00:18:26] to take a look, which is not an
[00:18:30] expert's, but more than anything, I think, in your field,
[00:18:34] to see what have been the
[00:18:37] norms over the last decades
[00:18:41] regarding the supply of housing, for example, in
[00:18:44] Mexico, what has happened is that the
[00:18:47] supply of housing has
[00:18:50] been to provide the
[00:18:53] population with social housing but, look, in peripheral
[00:18:57] locations, and for many years that
[00:19:00] was the norm,
[00:19:03] for many years there was social housing after the 1985 earthquake,
[00:19:07] it started, but even so, the phenomenon of
[00:19:10] urban expansion and how we
[00:19:13] have the entire existence of dormitory cities, the phenomena of distance
[00:19:17] from where one works and has to move to
[00:19:22] the economic cost that
[00:19:25] that entailed, that situation
[00:19:29] and still entails it because we are living
[00:19:32] it right now, even though those policies are no longer in place,
[00:19:35] what is very interesting right now in terms of policies, speaking
[00:19:39] again here of Mexico City, for example, what is
[00:19:42] starting to emerge from what is the city government
[00:19:45] which is being promoted from
[00:19:50] the right to neighborhood and community
[00:19:54] rootedness, this concept
[00:19:57] comes from 2025,
[00:19:59] we are not talking about measures, let's say,
[00:20:03] of, let's build more housing, let's give away, let's
[00:20:07] put a percentage of the rent for those who don't have, that is,
[00:20:11] certain measures that other governments in other countries are starting to
[00:20:15] quell the housing crisis, but here we are
[00:20:18] talking about it from another dynamic, the right to
[00:20:22] neighborhood and communal rootedness, which arises
[00:20:25] from another phenomenon that we haven't talked about
[00:20:29] here, which is the famous gentrification,
[00:20:31] we listen to you, no, I agree with what was
[00:20:35] mentioned, I believe that
[00:20:37] it is precisely necessary to understand that what is being
[00:20:41] housing. Housing is the capacity that people have to be able to inhabit a
[00:20:45] space with optimal conditions, let's say minimum
[00:20:48] conditions, and with legal certainty, that is,
[00:20:52] with certainty that they will not be arbitrarily evicted
[00:20:55] at any time, no. This can be achieved with ownership, but
[00:20:59] not exclusively with
[00:21:02] ownership. In fact, Silvia just mentioned it, there are other
[00:21:06] types of collective, hybrid modalities that range from
[00:21:09] housing cooperatives or community land trusts or
[00:21:13] the same rental, as well as public
[00:21:17] rental, and other different
[00:21:20] mechanisms. I agree with the issue of land banks, housing is not a
[00:21:23] cell phone, it is not a cup
[00:21:26] that is made in abstract and the environment in which it will be
[00:21:30] used as a product remains the same, but housing
[00:21:34] is connected to the city and in that sense, to make housing, you have to make
[00:21:37] a city and land policies, mechanisms such as land
[00:21:41] banks and others that have been used in different Latin American countries,
[00:21:45] I'm not talking about Scandinavian countries
[00:21:48] with budgets and with conditions that seem unattainable
[00:21:52] for our country at the moment, no, I'm talking about Latin American countries that have achieved
[00:21:55] this, and finally I think it is important
[00:21:58] to also highlight this issue
[00:22:01] of the supposed danger that property has compared to the right to
[00:22:05] housing, which is completely false. It seems to me that what
[00:22:08] Silvia mentions is very striking, how as soon as something about the right to
[00:22:12] housing is mentioned, many
[00:22:15] voices come out to make alarmist speeches,
[00:22:18] distorting and even
[00:22:22] spreading false information to generate panic every time the
[00:22:25] right to housing is mentioned. This
[00:22:30] property is not because people in Mexico have
[00:22:34] an ideological pro-property
[00:22:37] stance as such, but because we have been taught that stability is given by
[00:22:41] property, because precisely, as in Latin
[00:22:44] America, what is most common throughout a person's life are
[00:22:48] economic crises, political crises, social
[00:22:51] crises, property has been taught to us as the only thing that
[00:22:55] can give us stability in our countries, and that's where people come from, it's not that they want
[00:22:59] property, let's say, from an ideological sense, they want the
[00:23:03] certainty that they will be able to have a place to live and that they will not be
[00:23:05] arbitrarily evicted, in addition to the fact that property,
[00:23:09] like every principle, like every right, has limits and has had
[00:23:13] throughout history and currently has land
[00:23:16] uses, for example, are a limit to property, the permits that are
[00:23:20] needed for the sale of alcohol and other types of uses for property, I could also
[00:23:24] give many examples, but in addition, it must be noted that here in
[00:23:27] Mexico, the measures that are considered communist, that are
[00:23:31] considered radical in terms of the right to
[00:23:33] housing are the basic basket in terms of housing in countries
[00:23:37] like the United States or European countries, that is,
[00:23:41] we are not even asking for mechanisms that are used
[00:23:44] in
[00:23:47] explain that part a little bit, how the basic basket. In cities like
[00:23:50] New York, I imagine, everyone wants to live in New York, no, it's not enough to live in
[00:23:54] New York, you have to live in the adjacent neighborhoods,
[00:23:57] the vast majority who work in New York live outside of New York, no, let's
[00:24:01] see, I'm not saying there are no housing problems in the United States, I'm saying that the measures that
[00:24:05] exist there are basic and that we don't have them in
[00:24:08] Mexico. In the United States there are laws that protect tenants, here
[00:24:11] we have civil codes that are very brief and that do not have this
[00:24:15] rights perspective. In the United States,
[00:24:19] in large cities there is regulation of Airbnb,
[00:24:23] some with criticism like New York's, which doesn't seem to me to be the best scheme to
[00:24:26] regulate Airbnb, but they have it. In the United States there are
[00:24:30] rent subsidies in several states, there are subsidies for the
[00:24:33] rent of people who cannot pay rent. In the United
[00:24:37] States there are still public housing
[00:24:40] buildings for rent, buildings that belong to the state and the state rents them
[00:24:44] out. In the United States they have the Fair Housing Act, which
[00:24:47] is, how do you say, a law, so
[00:24:50] to speak, that what it does is prohibit discrimination in the purchase
[00:24:54] and rental of housing and establishes mechanisms to report it. I
[00:24:57] don't think the United States is a benchmark in terms of housing, in fact it has many problems
[00:25:01] and many things that I would criticize, but what I want to say and point out with
[00:25:05] this is that many basic things that are asked for in
[00:25:08] Mexico and that are labeled as communist, as extremist,
[00:25:12] are things that in the United States and in other countries that sacralize
[00:25:16] property and capitalism, etc., they have them, that is,
[00:25:20] it is not really
[00:25:22] a change in the structure, rather it seems to me that it is very
[00:25:26] comfortable to make a profit from the real
[00:25:29] estate market in Mexico because there is no regulation and there is no minimum
[00:25:33] floor of rights for tenants and even for owners,
[00:25:36] we see it with the cases of dispossession, I'm going to pause, yes, and we'll be right back with
[00:25:40] more.
[00:26:02] of that, the truth is that everything that happens in the world is being
[00:26:06] stirred up in some way, and Latin America, with all the
[00:26:09] aspects that are there, as you said, of elections, of
[00:26:13] the treaty of Mexico with Canada and with the United
[00:26:17] States, will have a spotlight on it and it comes from a moment when the
[00:26:20] markets, to follow a bit of our focus today on
[00:26:23] markets, the markets have been quite good
[00:26:27] too, and there
[00:26:30] are expectations that, to the extent that they are difficult to anticipate,
[00:26:34] certainly, but they are moving
[00:26:38] in a way they haven't in many years.
[00:29:56] We continue in Mexico, Pina, talking about the housing problem. We talked about the issue of the RBI, that a
[00:30:00] law was approved in Mexico this. has
[00:30:02] disincentivized this type of rent or is it, let's say,
[00:30:05] an approach to the problem that they make? I would say it's an
[00:30:09] approach to the problem because it's almost 2
[00:30:13] years old but one of the instruments has
[00:30:16] not really been opened. The registry
[00:30:19] is not operating
[00:30:22] exactly for the platforms and
[00:30:25] also for the people who offer their
[00:30:28] housing through this formula, and
[00:30:32] this really prevents us from having clarity regarding
[00:30:36] how many there are, where they are,
[00:30:39] that they have also protected themselves, right? To prevent
[00:30:43] this register from being opened, so it's a bit
[00:30:46] early to be able to say if it will work,
[00:30:50] but if we analyze this law
[00:30:53] comparatively with another that clearly has many more years of
[00:30:57] trying to regulate the phenomenon, I think that...