TELEARUBA — broadcast
20261029 173000 UTC
453 transcript segments
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[00:00:45] what excites
[00:01:40] so that is when the window of
[00:01:59] now how is the
[00:02:26] y está claro también en
[00:02:26] It is a temporary solution to what
[00:02:56] escape plan because that's what
[00:03:07] atado a preocupaciones con
[00:03:11] Secretary of Defense of the United States, who joined
[00:03:23] such.
[00:03:35] How are you? Good evening, it's a pleasure to greet you. I am Fernando del Rincón, welcome, welcome
[00:03:39] to Conclusiones, thank you for joining me.
[00:03:42] This, this like every night. Flavio
[00:03:46] Bolsonaro, political persecute,
[00:03:50] fugitive from justice,
[00:03:54] how do you define him?
[00:03:57] It depends on who you ask, they will tell you that Flavio Bolsonaro is a
[00:04:00] fugitive from Brazilian justice, or they will tell you that he is a
[00:04:04] political persecute who is seeking refuge and that the United
[00:04:07] States has granted it to him,
[00:04:10] but who determines that?
[00:04:13] It is determined by the political ideology of
[00:04:16] who you ask, it is determined by the
[00:04:20] justice of the country of which he is
[00:04:23] a native, who determines
[00:04:26] today what Flavio Bolsonaro is?
[00:04:31] Is he a political persecute, is he
[00:04:35] a fugitive from justice, is he a refugee, which of the
[00:04:37] three? It depends on who you
[00:04:40] ask, because if you ask
[00:04:43] the Latin American right, they might tell
[00:04:46] you no, he is a political persecute, if you ask the left,
[00:04:50] he is a fugitive from justice, but these are merely
[00:04:53] opinions, as a guest told me yesterday, from a technical
[00:04:56] point of view.
[00:05:00] No, let's forget about ideologies and
[00:05:04] let's look at it from a technical point of view, let's look at it from that
[00:05:08] technical point of view. Who should we
[00:05:11] listen to?
[00:05:13] To a justice that prevented him from leaving the country, that asked
[00:05:17] for his passports and that he
[00:05:20] precisely violated
[00:05:23] those rules that were imposed,
[00:05:26] he would have to be seen then as someone who has fled the
[00:05:30] control of the justice of his country,
[00:05:34] but then there comes the ideological
[00:05:37] interpretation, those who link the judge
[00:05:41] who determined... the justice that determined
[00:05:44] linked to an ideology and from there
[00:05:48] other governments on the other
[00:05:51] side of the coin participate, such as Argentina with my
[00:05:55] law, such as Ecuador with
[00:05:59] Noboa and the United States with Donald
[00:06:01] Trump. The truth is
[00:06:05] that Flavio Bolsonaro's case ceased to be
[00:06:08] just a Brazilian issue, Flavio Bolsonaro's case.
[00:06:12] Flavio Bolsonaro's case, today, as you want to define it, a fugitive from
[00:06:16] justice, a political persecute, a refugee, today it has
[00:06:20] become an international issue, why, because there will be a
[00:06:23] necessary confrontation
[00:06:27] between the government of Argentina with President Milei and President
[00:06:30] Lula da Silva, which already
[00:06:33] existed, but now with this element named Flavio Bolsonaro,
[00:06:37] there will surely be greater
[00:06:41] consequences, but also with... the government of the United States with President Donald Trump, who
[00:06:44] also already had tension between the two governments
[00:06:47] and
[00:06:50] to further complicate the
[00:06:54] scenario, Flavio Bolsonaro states first
[00:06:57] that he is the true elected president of Brazil,
[00:07:00] then he regrets it and says
[00:07:04] that he is the true leader of
[00:07:06] Brazil.
[00:07:09] What will happen to Bolsonaro in the United States? How long
[00:07:12] will he stay?
[00:07:15] Because President Donald Trump ends his term
[00:07:19] in approximately 2 years, and after
[00:07:22] that, where will Bolsonaro
[00:07:26] go, will he stay here, will they let
[00:07:29] him stay, will he not go, will they
[00:07:31] return him, will justice
[00:07:34] request him?
[00:07:39] may happen in the future, meanwhile.
[00:07:42] In the meantime, who defines him as
[00:07:45] what?
[00:07:48] You, in your opinion, the justice of a country or the
[00:07:51] ideology that he
[00:07:52] shares?
[00:07:55] I leave that question to you,
[00:07:58] define him yourself, from a technical
[00:08:00] point of view, he has fled Brazilian
[00:08:03] justice,
[00:08:04] is he
[00:08:08] persecuted? I don't
[00:08:10] know.
[00:08:13] Political persecuted? I don't know.
[00:08:15] I
[00:08:18] cannot determine that, that will have to
[00:08:21] be determined with in-depth investigations into the situation of
[00:08:25] Flavio Bolsonaro, so
[00:08:27] receive him as you wish, as a fugitive, as
[00:08:31] a political persecute or as a refugee, everyone
[00:08:35] interprets Bolsonaro's
[00:08:36] reality as it best
[00:08:40] suits them. Let's talk about that, if you like,
[00:08:43] also about the scandal of the National Electoral Institute in Mexico, those are
[00:08:47] the two topics for tonight.
[00:08:48] noche.
[00:08:55] So I ask you to join me from this moment on, using the hashtag Conclu Bolsonaro, the hashtag is
[00:08:59] conclubolsonaro, remember your comments with this
[00:09:02] hashtag conclubolsonaro my account nx@soyfdelrincón@soyf
[00:09:06] del
[00:09:07] rico.
[00:09:18] Well, as you can see, Flavio Bolsonaro arrived in the United States, he arrived in
[00:09:21] Miami, after leaving Brazil, where the federal police
[00:09:25] said, he said, no, they demanded on
[00:09:28] Monday that he hand over his passports, he had already said it, obviously, and they
[00:09:32] told him that he was forbidden to leave the country, he was prevented from leaving,
[00:09:36] so he then ruled out having any intentions of doing so, the documents
[00:09:39] were canceled, as reported by the federal police. and his whereabouts
[00:09:43] were a mystery for hours until we received the
[00:09:47] images of his arrival, now we know things
[00:09:51] more clearly, is that he crossed to Argentina
[00:09:54] boarded a private plane there in Argentina
[00:09:58] bound for Ecuador
[00:10:01] eh made a stopover in Guayaquil and from there
[00:10:04] continued then to Miami, of course
[00:10:08] he was with his wife and his two daughters, his
[00:10:11] arrival occurs. In this context in which the
[00:10:14] Bolsonaro family has been supported, because it is not
[00:10:18] only Flavio, but also his father Jair
[00:10:21] Bolsonaro, by President Donald Trump, who has expressed.
[00:10:25] always his support for
[00:10:27] them, right? And who confirmed today that they approved his entry to the United
[00:10:30] States, but in the midst of this journey Bolsonaro did not
[00:10:34] waste time, as I was telling you, he published a
[00:10:38] letter in which he proclaimed himself the true president of Brazil,
[00:10:41] he regretted it later, he deleted it and published another version in which he says that
[00:10:45] he is the leader of Brazil, he states
[00:10:49] that the elections were stolen from him, he accuses the justice of his country of
[00:10:52] orchestrating a political persecution, without. presenting
[00:10:55] evidence to support these accusations, attention,
[00:10:58] attention, yes, he disavows the electoral result, something
[00:11:02] that not even his own party has done, and he compares
[00:11:05] himself with historical figures who led political movements from
[00:11:08] exile, he also made it clear that his departure does not mean
[00:11:12] withdrawing from politics, he announces that he will lead the opposition from the United
[00:11:16] strategy to mobilize his
[00:11:19] message, Bolsonaro also thanks
[00:11:23] Trump, of course he thanks the president of Argentina, Javier
[00:11:26] Miley, presenta a Estados Unidos como un lugar donde encuentra la
[00:11:29] no longer exists in Brazil,
[00:11:33] y justamente aquí viene la parte de la justicia brasileña,
[00:11:37] it opens the question,
[00:11:40] federal court ordered to investigate possible
[00:11:44] campaign, in particular on alleged
[00:11:47] vínculos con rock bridge network, es una red
[00:11:51] current vice president JD Vance.
[00:11:55] At CNN we contacted the vice president's office, we are waiting for a
[00:11:59] response and look how interesting, this
[00:12:02] investigation must determine if there were
[00:12:05] conversaciones o gestiones para
[00:12:08] obtain support, foreign funding and
[00:12:12] other things for the campaign, but of course, all this
[00:12:15] foreign, in Brazil those contributions
[00:12:18] prohibited,
[00:12:20] okay,
[00:12:24] base of Bolsonarism
[00:12:27] going to react to this
[00:12:30] move by Flavio
[00:12:33] yes, will he be able to maintain support while being far away when his own
[00:12:37] party does not disavow the
[00:12:40] result of the election,
[00:12:43] will he become a distant figure of reference as has happened in other
[00:12:46] cases, did he win or lose in
[00:12:50] terms of credibility and
[00:12:54] y de responsabilidad. como líder que se dice
[00:12:56] be,
[00:12:59] now how will this impact Lula's fourth term in terms of international
[00:13:02] relations, no, the United States,
[00:13:06] Argentina, I don't know if Ecuador, no, because it was like
[00:13:10] a stopover country of transit that maybe
[00:13:13] they weren't well aware of what was happening, but for now
[00:13:17] Argentina, Milei was very involved in the
[00:13:21] it is, it's an escape of Flavio Bolsonaro
[00:13:25] to the United States and of course there must have been coordination
[00:13:29] and the United States is aware of the whole
[00:13:32] plan, and
[00:13:36] Lula is not going to let that pass,
[00:13:39] well, I think no government would let it pass,
[00:13:43] ideologies,
[00:13:46] the context is extremely complicated, but I repeat to you and it is something that no one is talking about and that no one
[00:13:49] is taking into
[00:13:51] account,
[00:13:55] States? And what will happen in two years when Donald
[00:13:59] Trump leaves, because he has to leave, it's
[00:14:03] constitucionalmente así está determinado, cuál sería el
[00:14:06] future of Bolsonaro, because
[00:14:09] Lula will still be in power when Trump
[00:14:13] leaves, what will happen to Flavio,
[00:14:16] of course, it will depend on who wins
[00:14:19] but he is not
[00:14:23] guaranteed then. that Lula's entire mandate can be
[00:14:26] protected. Let's talk about all this, if you like,
[00:14:30] when I return with my guest who yesterday, by the way, endured the
[00:14:33] interview I had with my guest from
[00:14:36] con mi invitado de Ecuador y y Hannah
[00:14:39] was going to talk to us yesterday, but she saw that it was extended, I asked her to please
[00:14:43] help us and very kindly Hannah Nelson, who is on screen,
[00:14:47] understood the situation, accepted, accepted to
[00:14:50] support us again today, now
[00:14:54] break. I'll be back with you, this is
[00:15:00] her.
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[00:15:46] journalism for 20 years, in Mexico City, in the United
[00:15:49] States and now in Miami for CNN. CNN
[00:15:53] America is a multiplatform program where you will
[00:15:57] have information from all fields that will allow you to
[00:16:00] entender al mundo desde el ángulo que lo estén viendo. En
[00:16:04] those 3 hours you will not only have information from a
[00:16:08] political and economic field, but also health,
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[00:16:15] not to polarize, but to
[00:16:19] integrar a la
[00:16:23] me most is to
[00:16:25] inquire, investigate the why
[00:16:29] de los hechos, aquí verás lo que hace noticia y todo lo que
[00:16:33] CNN America with Rebeca
[00:16:36] Kelly. De lunes viernes en
[00:16:38] CNN.
[00:16:41] Do you have 5 minutes? We have five things for
[00:16:44] you. A podcast with the five most important topics of the
[00:16:48] día.
[00:16:51] Here at CNN, news comes first, from decisions made in
[00:16:55] Washington hasta sus repercusiones en todo Estados
[00:16:58] Unidos, América Latina y el mundo. Seguimos la historia desde
[00:17:02] todos los ángulos, directo USA, de lunes viernes en
[00:17:05] CNN.
[00:18:26] in the national ranking, a welcome to Hana
[00:18:29] Nelson, former Undersecretary of Defense of the United States, who is joining me, Hana, thank you very much for being here, especially after yesterday
[00:18:33] that we asked you to
[00:18:36] let us extend it. And it was, let's see, we were going to have 2 minutes
[00:18:40] of chat, we didn't think it was worth it, but you understood the situation well and I thank
[00:18:44] you very much Fernando and thank you very much for having me again,
[00:18:47] here
[00:18:49] with you.
[00:18:52] No, no, the pleasure is all ours, Hana, this, let's
[00:18:55] see, let's try to untangle this, Hana, I said it at the beginning of the
[00:18:59] program, let's see, what is Flavio
[00:19:02] Bolsonaro today, what is he, is he a political persecute, is
[00:19:06] he a fugitive from justice, is he a refugee in the United
[00:19:09] States, how should we define him, because I said
[00:19:13] technically, if we rely on the
[00:19:15] ruling of Brazilian
[00:19:19] fugitive, no,
[00:19:22] the element of Moraes, of the judge, this
[00:19:26] que tiene una alineación ideológica evidente con Lula
[00:19:29] eh, cómo cómo trabajar esta definición, mi
[00:19:33] in parts, no, eh, to
[00:19:36] treaty between the United States and
[00:19:40] Brazil that exists, would
[00:19:43] what they have
[00:19:46] unfortunate, but what they have done
[00:19:49] is the day after the
[00:19:52] policías afuera de la casa de su papá, Jair
[00:19:55] Bolsonaro, porque sabían que Flavio iba a visitar su papá
[00:19:59] y le pidieron a él sus pasaportes, no el
[00:20:02] Brazilian one and any other
[00:20:06] idea, with the intention. that he would be in the country while they
[00:20:09] investigated a money laundering
[00:20:12] case eh related to a colleague,
[00:20:16] an acquaintance of his who might have been a
[00:20:19] financier, a possible financier, so it is not
[00:20:22] an accusation as such eh, at
[00:20:25] least not at the moment and eh rather
[00:20:28] it is an act that can be read in a
[00:20:31] political way, the supreme judge as you say alexandre de
[00:20:35] morais who throughout this year has made several
[00:20:39] decisions that have been read in a political way and that have been a
[00:20:42] problem for the Brazil-United
[00:20:46] judge, in his eagerness to want to make sure
[00:20:49] that... he wanted to investigate Flavio
[00:20:52] politically gifting, giving a political gift to
[00:20:56] say that he is
[00:20:59] a political case,
[00:21:02] he is being politically
[00:21:05] left eh that
[00:21:08] exaggeration, but not entirely true, so
[00:21:12] he is in the United States allowed
[00:21:16] by the American government to be there without with...
[00:21:20] authorization, eh,
[00:21:22] let's see what will happen in Brazil, if they are going to
[00:21:26] started
[00:21:30] recently.
[00:21:33] Okay, if we take this perspective, according to the
[00:21:37] analysis you make, Hana, would it be correct
[00:21:40] to say then that Flavio, if the reading
[00:21:43] is political, that Flavio
[00:21:46] States, a political asylum seeker, yes. it
[00:21:50] could be said in the broadest sense of the word, but
[00:21:53] yes.
[00:21:56] Okay, so he would be a political
[00:21:59] now you touch on something very important, the political interpretation that
[00:22:03] Moraes's decision to
[00:22:07] retenerlo dentro del país para poderlo investigar eh con una
[00:22:10] alineación ideológica por parte de Moraes, porque entonces tengo que
[00:22:14] entrar con la ideología de derecha y
[00:22:16] ultraderecha eh de de esta. Estados Unidos y de
[00:22:20] Argentina, no, este, final de
[00:22:23] cuentas comparten la misma eh ideología
[00:22:27] política,
[00:22:30] what is weighing more
[00:22:34] here, Jana, eh, the legal
[00:22:38] legales, las ideologías la
[00:22:41] struggle between governments
[00:22:47] that there is an
[00:22:51] effort to protect
[00:22:54] right eh, there is an effort to protect, let's say, the people
[00:22:58] who are the leaders
[00:23:02] that is clear in the
[00:23:05] actions of President Milei to
[00:23:09] candidate Bolsonaro Flavio Bolsonaro
[00:23:13] de su país más importante
[00:23:16] la acción de Estados Unidos de permitir que el pueda. de
[00:23:20] entrar sin sus pasaportes y darle autorización para que esté en
[00:23:23] Estados Unidos y supongo que también eventualmente poder trabajar
[00:23:27] eh they did the same with his brother Eduardo Bolsonaro, Eduardo Bolsonaro
[00:23:31] has an O visa which is
[00:23:34] con talentos especiales eh
[00:23:37] y él por eso está y y y con eso está en Estados Unidos,
[00:23:41] so ideology weighs more, having said that,
[00:23:44] the United States has not eh, has not reached
[00:23:48] the level of saying that... who was elected or who won the
[00:23:52] elections was Flavio
[00:23:57] the process and simply not saying if
[00:24:01] they do not recognize Lula, they are not acting
[00:24:05] against the result as
[00:24:13] What happens is that obviously the interpretation of receiving Flavio Bolsonaro
[00:24:17] speaks at that level of.
[00:24:20] confrontation with Lula, not of disavowal, which is different, Jana says it well, they are
[00:24:24] result, but they are still
[00:24:27] confronting Lula's government
[00:24:30] ideological project. Now, what conflict
[00:24:34] do you foresee? Let's see, I think that the conflict that will
[00:24:37] be prolonged is not that concerning, not
[00:24:41] in Trump- Bolsonaro terms, we
[00:24:45] know what the rule is there, it is not a matter of pressure
[00:24:48] with tariffs. it is rather a confrontation that is
[00:24:52] handled on an economic level where the United States seeks to pressure
[00:24:55] Brazil, Lula's government and complicate its
[00:24:58] existence, but Argentina, that is another
[00:25:01] story, my dear Jana, what complications, besides
[00:25:05] that, well, the distance between one and the other is very
[00:25:08] different, if you have them as
[00:25:12] because ultimately, of course, Milei has Trump's support,
[00:25:15] but the one who will have to deal with the
[00:25:18] Lula eh. the one who will have
[00:25:22] is not exactly in his best moment after the scandal he
[00:25:26] armó en España, ahora
[00:25:28] returning to Argentina, he does this in
[00:25:30] coordination, what do you foresee for the future in this
[00:25:34] relationship? Yes, and not only that, President Milei also
[00:25:38] se involucró en las elecciones en Brasil y intentó
[00:25:41] apoyar abiertamente el candidato Bolsonaro, entonces hay una serie
[00:25:45] de acciones que él ha tomado con con la idea que sí
[00:25:49] obviously wanted
[00:25:53] tanto, obviamente por sus acciones, la relación entre
[00:25:57] Argentina y Brasil, eh, entonces se ve claramente que
[00:26:00] aunque sí es el princip. principal socio comercial
[00:26:04] de Argentina, Brasil lo es, y en el caso de Brasil, Argentina es
[00:26:08] su segundo más eh, su segunda relación diplomática más
[00:26:11] importante desde una perspectiva del del
[00:26:14] Ministerio de Exteriores, por ejemplo, pones primero al embajador en Estados
[00:26:18] Unidos y después el embajador en Argentina, de ese
[00:26:21] nivel es el el tamaño de la relación bilateral, claramente el presidente
[00:26:25] Miley ha decidido que eso no es algo que a él le interese tanto ha
[00:26:29] significantly reduce. the
[00:26:32] posibilidad de cooperación entre los dos países, dicho eso, son
[00:26:36] miembros de Mercosur, hay varias otras estructuras
[00:26:39] que que requieren que los dos países estén
[00:26:42] ambassador level, in fact I think that at
[00:26:46] ese momento no tienen embajadores entre ellos, porque Lula
[00:26:49] pidió que su embajador regresara para consultas, que es lo
[00:26:53] primero que uno hace antes de sacar las relaciones diplomáticas
[00:26:56] en los entre los dos países,
[00:27:00] Yes, I think the next step
[00:27:03] from Lula's side at least will be to break
[00:27:06] they will surely keep the charges of business, which is what
[00:27:09] normally happens when there are no
[00:27:12] diplomats on the ground, the last question I
[00:27:16] ask you, Hana, with this I bid farewell, I
[00:27:19] say something that is important that I think has not been calculated
[00:27:22] here and that is the
[00:27:25] protection for Bolsonaro, whether Trump is there now and Trump will
[00:27:29] proteger aquí el tiempo que está en la presidencia en 2 años más.
[00:27:32] less, Trump has to leave. What will
[00:27:36] de quién llegue la casa blanca demócrata o
[00:27:38] Republican? Yes, first of all, who
[00:27:42] gane, cierto, si gana un candidato republicano lo mismo que
[00:27:45] tenemos ahorita, es lo que va a continuar siendo, eh, va haber
[00:27:49] protección de de grupos ideológicos de derecha,
[00:27:52] because it is eh,
[00:27:55] we suppose that the
[00:27:59] pro Trump, no, sea quien sea. Ahora, si gana.
[00:28:02] lo un candidato demócrata
[00:28:05] eh el proceso de de visas eh
[00:28:08] dado tanto a Eduardo cuanto a Flavio sí es
[00:28:11] cuestionable, entonces no me sorprendería que un
[00:28:15] gobierno demócrata revise las
[00:28:18] decisiones relacionadas a la
[00:28:21] migration, the visas of those
[00:28:24] are here
[00:28:28] protected, so to speak, but
[00:28:31] yes, I'm not surprised. If a Democratic candidate wins the elections in two
[00:28:35] years, decides to review those
[00:28:37] decisions,
[00:28:40] of course, and to reverse the decisions, that's
[00:28:44] the, that's another thing. Lula
[00:28:47] will still be in power, so Trump's mandate is not enough for Flavio to
[00:28:51] remain protected until Lula leaves. Lula will still be in power. That will
[00:28:54] be interesting when we get there. We'll cross that bridge when we
[00:28:58] come to it. For now, Jana, thank you so much as always for really being here and for
[00:29:02] the... I really appreciate it very much, thank
[00:29:05] you very much, it's always a pleasure.
[00:29:08] The pleasure is all ours. Have a great night, Hanna Nelson, former Deputy Assistant
[00:29:14] me. I'm going to take a break, I'll be back. Listen, the
[00:29:17] mega election of June 2027 in
[00:29:20] Mexico is coming,
[00:29:23] well, what can I tell you, not the scandal,
[00:29:27] catastrophe, the most serious
[00:29:30] catastrophe that could have occurred at the INE, at the National
[00:29:34] Electoral Institute with Guadalupe Tadeila,
[00:29:37] former, now former president of the electoral body. I'm
[00:29:40] going to tell you everything that happened and why it happened, but
[00:29:44] the INE, the INE is upside down today and
[00:29:47] the elections, the elections are coming.
[00:30:24] Live from Mexico
[00:30:26] City,
[00:30:29] one story can change everything. A look
[00:30:32] at the reconstruction efforts of a city and the hope of a people
[00:30:36] determined to rise up. It evolved very quickly and we never thought
[00:30:40] it would become a category five. And to understand what
[00:30:43] is happening, let's go to my colleague Ione Molinares in
[00:30:47] Washington.