TRTWORLD — Beyond The Game
20260806 013000 UTC
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[00:00:00] about being neutral,
[00:00:04] and the country's arms
[00:00:05] of industry wants changes to the law so it
[00:00:10] of in can export of weapon.
[00:00:12] of what
[00:00:16] is the price of swiss neutrality? is it helping
[00:00:20] others by
[00:00:20] of being of a peacemaker or simply helping
[00:00:25] a itself? neutrality, the swiss
[00:00:29] says. mean they're not ready to defend
[00:00:32] themselves, i can hit the
[00:00:34] castle and all this a country where
[00:00:38] civilian gun ownership is one the
[00:00:48] cost of sitting on the sideline beyond
[00:00:51] borders on trt
[00:00:53] world.
[00:01:08] of of Divisions
[00:01:11] of within the European Union have been exposed after more than
[00:01:14] 60,000 migrants surged into the Spanish
[00:01:17] enclave filter from Morocco. President
[00:01:23] a of the EU Commissioner Von delin has called for stronger border controls and a unified approach
[00:01:27] to migration. But how does the block move forward amid
[00:01:31] strained
[00:01:31] of relations and why did so many people storm the border
[00:01:35] on the same
[00:01:36] day?
[00:01:41] of
[00:01:44] of
[00:01:54] rian and jones. europe's migration policy is under
[00:01:57] scrutinyy after the Moroccan spanish... border was
[00:02:00] overwhelmed last week and tens of thousands of migrants
[00:02:04] swam, scrambled and stampeded their way into the
[00:02:07] Spanish City Felter. Most
[00:02:10] of the migrants have been returned home, but many are living on the
[00:02:13] streets with no shelter, food nor
[00:02:16] of water, dozens lost their lives attempting the journey.
[00:02:20] Well, Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez has blamed human
[00:02:23] traffickers for the crisis, whilst other European Union
[00:02:27] of states have accused him of being, soft on
[00:02:31] migrants, they came
[00:02:35] in their thousands, some swam desperately trying to
[00:02:39] make it to shore, others rushed the border. By the end
[00:02:43] of the day, more than 60,00 migrants had
[00:02:46] of made it into the
[00:02:46] of Spanish enclave of Thealter. I i prefer to
[00:02:50] die here than to go my back to to go
[00:02:53] of back step. Fota is one of two Spanish territories in
[00:02:57] North Africa and she is a landbarder. with Morocco, to
[00:03:01] get there, people often swim from the Moroccan town
[00:03:04] of off, which is about 5 km away. for some
[00:03:08] it was deadly journey, at least
[00:03:11] of 75 people died in the crossing, mostly from
[00:03:14] drowning. with
[00:03:15] a resident population of only 83, the influx
[00:03:19] overwhelmed thealter, and the army was deployed. prime minister
[00:03:23] Pedro sanchez traveled the last week to meet with
[00:03:26] authorities.
[00:03:37] of of in
[00:03:48] in
[00:03:48] of
[00:04:00] supreme court ruling that migrants arriving by
[00:04:03] of sea cannot immediately be
[00:04:04] of returned.
[00:04:05] of my friend has called me that the border
[00:04:13] has criticized some EU countries for what he called a
[00:04:16] selfish response. Italy's prime minister Georgia Moloni
[00:04:20] temporarily suspended the EU's border free shingen rangement with
[00:04:24] Spain
[00:04:25] in a move backed by Finland and Denmark. At
[00:04:29] an EU emergency. meeting, 22
[00:04:31] of the block's 27 member states called for coordinated
[00:04:34] action. most
[00:04:36] of the 60,00 migrants have now return to Morocco many
[00:04:39] voluntarily. it's really tough, everyone there
[00:04:43] got stopped and arrested, they don't want to sell groceries to anyone of
[00:04:47] those arriving. spain is
[00:04:50] of now securing thealter's border as the country's top court
[00:04:53] investigates just how this mass
[00:04:55] a crossing was able to
[00:04:57] happen.
[00:05:31] migrants, I
[00:05:32] mean it's almost an unimaginable number, it's
[00:05:35] huge. Spanish authorities say it was down to
[00:05:39] misinformation which fueled this rush. to the
[00:05:42] border, do we have any clearer a picture now of
[00:05:46] what actually happened? unfortunately, I think we
[00:05:50] don't have clear picture of what exactly happened, I think it's very interesting to see
[00:05:54] the huge numbers, so you say something unprecedented, we've had this sort of crisis before and this
[00:05:57] sort of issues happening in the enclave before, but this is the the first time it's
[00:06:01] happening such magnitude and such numbers, there's a lot of information, lot of different
[00:06:05] versions going around in Spain about what exactly happened, and there's a lot of
[00:06:08] information and theories perhaps from the Spanish side, we very
[00:06:12] interested to hear as well and to find out more from the Moroccan government what exactly
[00:06:16] happened from the Moroccan side the border because it all seems to indicate
[00:06:19] that for whatever reason the Moroccans decided to let this group of
[00:06:23] migrants through, there was some sort of filtration as well, it was mostly
[00:06:27] Moroccans, not people from the rest of Africa, so I'm curious
[00:06:31] to see what happens, we've seen this happen before as political gamemanship from Morocco
[00:06:35] between Spain, so I think we don't have the full picture yet, and we don't know what's
[00:06:38] going on behind the scenes in political terms, uh other than that it seems to... and
[00:06:42] issue of misinformation and the ruling that came on for the supreme court in Spain that
[00:06:46] was misunderstood or misinformed across Morocco in particular that led to
[00:06:50] the impression that migrats could just come to Spain and they were going to be allowed into the Shengen
[00:06:54] area which was completely false as we've seen and most them have come back but yeah it
[00:06:58] seems to be a combination of factors and I'm not sure we have the full picture yet
[00:07:11] and local communist is telling you, what were they saying as the events
[00:07:15] unfolded? well, I think there was just
[00:07:19] a lot of shock frankly, um, people in
[00:07:22] Thuta, the residents of Thoter feel somewhat
[00:07:26] betrayed, I think by the by the Spanish government, the
[00:07:30] central government, um, they they
[00:07:34] complained that basically, how is it possible that there was no
[00:07:38] indication in in the preceeding hours of preceeding
[00:07:41] days? that there were going to be over 60 thousand, even
[00:07:45] 70 thousand people arriving
[00:07:49] on their on their coastline, and indeed the
[00:07:53] president of Thoter did mention that in the day or
[00:07:57] to preceeding what happened, there were
[00:08:00] increasing numbers of of people arriving, I think between
[00:08:04] one and 2000, so they does seem to have been
[00:08:08] some indication that something was a miss
[00:08:11] um... things were different from usual uh,
[00:08:15] but some have suggested that Spanish police did not take
[00:08:19] this, perhaps did not take this seriously or yeah, did not
[00:08:23] have the have the full information, so I think people have have been shocked,
[00:08:27] frankly. I did want to ask Soy, did it appear to
[00:08:30] be very much a spontaneous rush or or was there any
[00:08:34] evidence of organized criminal smuggling
[00:08:37] involved from where you were when you were reporting? yeah, I mean, I
[00:08:41] think that's... very difficult to say um that something was organized,
[00:08:45] some the people who were spoken to um
[00:08:49] said that they had been guided by um
[00:08:53] Moroccan authorities, um, but that is according that's on the
[00:08:57] ground in thota, that was according to some journalists from the New York
[00:09:00] Times, um, I think it's very, very hard at the stage to ascertain
[00:09:04] what role criminal organizations played, although this is
[00:09:08] something that the Spanish government and the Moroccan government have both put
[00:09:11] forward. um, but the but the actual evidence for that
[00:09:15] is is, we have to wait
[00:09:18] to to confirm those those comments. Pedro sanchez traveled
[00:09:21] to alges just days before this latest
[00:09:25] latest surge into thealter, is this
[00:09:29] timing significant?
[00:09:33] well, it could be a that relationship between Spain,
[00:09:36] Morocco and Algeria is delicate one, it's a delicate
[00:09:40] triangle, diplomatic triangle, but Uh, currently there's
[00:09:43] more questions than answers about what were the reasons
[00:09:47] for this unprecedented invasion into
[00:09:50] Selta. There have been previous in previous years such
[00:09:54] incidents, but not at this scale, and that is
[00:09:58] why with the Patriots for Europe group, we asked for an extraordinary plenary
[00:10:02] session the European Parliament, to go into the details, see what's
[00:10:06] going on. I know that the interior ministers the
[00:10:10] European Union countries are meeting in. an online video
[00:10:13] conference uh to get some of some answers of what
[00:10:17] happened exactly. honestly it's very difficult to
[00:10:20] imagine that the Spanish government or the Moroccan government
[00:10:25] did not know what was going to happen, 50, 60,
[00:10:29] 70,00 people crossing the borders illegally a
[00:10:33] day or two doesn't happen every day, it's not something that
[00:10:36] can go on notice, not something that should go on notice,
[00:10:40] and according to latest information, there are still a couple of thousand
[00:10:44] people left in Sauta, this is
[00:10:47] unacceptable, this is a pressure on the city that
[00:10:51] is unacceptable, they have our full solidarity. they
[00:10:55] have our full support, but we need to find out what happened, that's why
[00:10:59] we are pushing for debate in the European parliament as well as soon as
[00:11:03] possible. unfortunately the European People's party
[00:11:06] refused to have this extraordinary plenary debate
[00:11:10] um because uh they sided with the left.
[00:11:13] Pablos there saying that it's unlikely that the Spanish government didn't know about
[00:11:17] this incoming surge, Spain has been criticized for
[00:11:21] reacting too slowly. what's the government's?
[00:11:26] response and has it been inadequate? yeah, i think there
[00:11:30] is some fair criticism there and i think there's been certainly the reaction was deem slow
[00:11:34] and i think it was
[00:11:35] a failure more of anything of the intelligence services, security services, because there
[00:11:39] should have been some indication. i think at the very least there was a failure of
[00:11:43] cooperation and communication between the Moroccans and the Spanish and as i
[00:11:47] said before, we don't really know why this happened right? so
[00:11:51] there's something more to the story, i'm sure, but something of course
[00:11:53] that at least i'm not priv to. and there will be more to the story, we not entirely
[00:11:57] clear why the morocans in particular first let these
[00:12:01] migrants go through and get so close to the border because usually is buffer on
[00:12:05] the Moroccan side the border, so what changed, what made them let them sort of
[00:12:09] as it were go free uh, secondly why they didn't alert the Spanish
[00:12:13] authorities and thirdly why weren't the Spanish authorities in the
[00:12:16] know of this agglomeration of people and this could happen, so there's certainly some criticism there
[00:12:20] that could be made uh, I think once the situation evolve I
[00:12:24] think... "the penaro sanchez government tried to react quickly, we saw how the
[00:12:28] situation came back under control more or less relatively quickly and things seem
[00:12:32] to be more or less going back to normal, normal, yes, there's still some uh
[00:12:36] migrants there that are left uh, but it's not something in the numbers that we saw
[00:12:40] and the majority the migrants went back pretty much immediately as soon as they got
[00:12:44] to to to celta and spain has said that Morocco has
[00:12:47] cooperated with returns, how much
[00:12:51] responsibility should Morocco bear in this incident?" "
[00:12:55] "I mean to some extent Morocco has, the responsibility of Morocco is not
[00:12:59] to protect Spanish borders, right? The responsibility to protect Spanish borders is of Spain,
[00:13:03] but also this cooperation between the two, and there has to be cooperation, and this is has been
[00:13:07] a historically complicated relationship that to be fair has been
[00:13:11] getting better the last few years. Um, why this happen, I'm not
[00:13:14] entirely sure, we've seen Morocco use the issue of
[00:13:18] migration as a political tool somehow to extract certain
[00:13:21] positions, and and it's a way of adding a little bit of lever.
[00:13:25] onto the Spanish government, it could be that this was a little bit of a warning
[00:13:29] shot the Moroccan government anticipating perhaps a change
[00:13:33] of government in Spain and saying, listen, we still have this tool at our
[00:13:36] disposal, so if anything changes in the position of Spain visas
[00:13:40] Morocco or Algeria, we can always open the flood
[00:13:44] as it were, which is going to be problematic for Spain, I don't know, the
[00:13:48] reality is we don't really no, but there's alsos of different versions of what's going on and I'm
[00:13:52] really trying to figure it out like the rest of us, we...
[00:13:55] Pablo zoe, how just how politically
[00:13:59] damaging is this proving to be for Pedro
[00:14:01] sanchez? yeah, i think it is putting
[00:14:05] pressure on him definitely. mean amongst the spanish
[00:14:08] population, obviously those people who were
[00:14:12] already supportive the partido popular, the
[00:14:16] center right party or even the far right vox, this is just you
[00:14:20] know fuel for the fire, um basically this
[00:14:23] idea that p sanchez's government just don't have
[00:14:27] control the borders the the country
[00:14:31] um and it's fair to say that people here on the ground in Malager have felt
[00:14:35] a certain amount of shock and concern if you
[00:14:38] consider that Thoter is a one hour fairy
[00:14:41] ride away from um from the Spanish mainland
[00:14:45] so I think that has really
[00:14:48] you know fueled um those people already in opposition to
[00:14:51] Sanchez um I think also we see here
[00:14:55] Sanchez looking fairly isolated within the European
[00:14:59] context and I think that's particularly what he and his government are now
[00:15:03] complaining about at European level saying that they were offered
[00:15:07] very very little support um and 22 out of
[00:15:10] 27 European nations basically signed letter that
[00:15:14] suggested that the problem lay with Sanchez and his
[00:15:18] government and his migration policies so I think
[00:15:22] yeah I think Sanchez at this point probably is feeling... a little bit, a little
[00:15:26] bit
[00:15:31] you've argued that the EU migration pact, it
[00:15:34] creates incentives for illegal. migration
[00:15:38] so what should Europe be doing differently and in
[00:15:42] particular looking at Hungary as an example
[00:15:46] of of Europe's or one of Europe's tougher
[00:15:49] borders? well the government
[00:15:52] federal has done the same mistake as the European Union has
[00:15:55] in terms of being very weak on border protection against illegal
[00:15:59] immigration. just to put this into context this
[00:16:02] crisis. the last couple of months in Spain have
[00:16:06] been about the question of legalizing hundreds of
[00:16:10] thousands in Spain and basically
[00:16:13] granting them regular status, although they entered
[00:16:17] illegally. if then there's another piece of news
[00:16:21] and we've discussed this already, that some people,
[00:16:25] it was circulating in networks or maybe even in
[00:16:27] media, that people who enter seuta
[00:16:31] illegally will be allowed to stay, well that is fueled
[00:16:35] by the months and months. uh
[00:16:38] previously where the Spanish government has moved
[00:16:41] forward on legalizing hundreds of thousands of illegals, so
[00:16:45] obviously there's a pull factor created by politics,
[00:16:49] created by the socialist government in Spain and also created with what you
[00:16:53] mentioned the EU migration pact, because what is the EU migration pact
[00:16:57] about? It's about distributing the burden of illegal
[00:17:01] immigration across Europe to all countries in
[00:17:04] without stopping illegal entry. "that should be the first
[00:17:08] priority the European Union, that was the first priority of our
[00:17:12] government in Hungary since the 2015 migration crisis
[00:17:16] and it was successful one, you can
[00:17:20] stop illegal immigrants at the borders,
[00:17:24] um, of course there's a lot of pressure
[00:17:28] from media, there's a lot of pressure from NGOs and
[00:17:31] there was a lot of pressure on Hungary from the European Commission, just to remind the
[00:17:34] viewers, we were find 1 million euros per..." plus a sum
[00:17:38] of 200 million euros to change our laws and to
[00:17:42] allow illegal immigrants to enter the territory of Hungary
[00:17:46] and therefore the Shengen zone and do
[00:17:49] asylum procedures for illegals who are
[00:17:53] already in the EU, then usually disappeared,
[00:17:56] so this is very bad, there
[00:17:59] is very bad 10 years looking back in terms of European
[00:18:03] migration policy and water protection, and what has we
[00:18:07] have? witness in Spain in the last couple of months now,
[00:18:11] is a turbo boosting of this very bad
[00:18:13] policy, and basically giving out a free
[00:18:17] blank check to legal immigrants, you're telling them, well you're here
[00:18:21] illegally, we'll just legalize you, what should
[00:18:25] people think who were contemplating on entering the EU
[00:18:28] illegally, if not that this is the moment to go, on that
[00:18:32] look, Pablo Andres mentioned there, the suspended Shengen
[00:18:36] arrangements, backed by Finland and
[00:18:39] Denmark, that was by Italy, what's your opinion on that
[00:18:43] on Andres and Andres's thoughts there was it justified?
[00:18:47] not at all, I mean at the end the day the Shengen area was not in any danger right, the still
[00:18:51] a and Seuta has very specific arrangement with the rest of
[00:18:55] continental Europe as it were, and there have to be border controls and there are
[00:18:58] passport controls growing from Thelta to to continental spain as it were right,
[00:19:02] so not a single mangrad made it to the Shengen area, I don't see, I don't
[00:19:06] remember I haven't recorded. haven't seen anybody from this particular wave of migrants
[00:19:10] appearing at the borders of Hungary or any other European country, the
[00:19:14] vast majority them went back and turn back and return to Morocco, yes
[00:19:17] this shouldn't have happened,
[00:19:19] this was it's a very bad look right, it's a terrible look, and there
[00:19:23] may be an argument to be made about this has been partially
[00:19:26] influenced by the recent legalization or regularization of migrants
[00:19:30] in spain from Pedro sanchez and we'll find out about that
[00:19:34] more, the regularization of of of my... that just
[00:19:37] happened in April in Spain was primarily aimed at Latin American,
[00:19:41] particularly Colombian, Venezuelan, Ecuadorian, some
[00:19:45] Mexicans, Argentinians, lot more migrants from Latin America, there were of course some people from
[00:19:49] Northern Africa as well, right, but it's a different different phenomenon, most
[00:19:53] migrants that
[00:19:54] come through Europe from Spain do not do it through the enclave of Theuta
[00:19:57] because they still have to go through the sea all the way to continental spain and it's
[00:20:01] a lot harder to do so, so
[00:20:04] it is not a great look, it's terrible, but I think I'll be very careful with the... language as well,
[00:20:08] how we portray this as well, this was not an invasion, the schengen area was
[00:20:12] not under threat, it was terrible event, and let's not forget as
[00:20:15] well, the human cost of this crisis, because at least 70 people los their
[00:20:19] lives in something that was completely avoidable, right? so I think we have to be
[00:20:23] careful with how the we portray this, how we paint this? yeah, absolutely, I mean Pablo said it
[00:20:27] there, Zoe, let's not forget about the more than 50 people that have
[00:20:31] reportedly um dead as result of of
[00:20:34] this, has the political debate? here in
[00:20:38] your view overshadowed the the humanitarian
[00:20:42] tragedy that we saw? yeah, think i think that's
[00:20:45] probably fair to say the focus has been on the
[00:20:48] politics. rather than the lives lost,
[00:20:52] we know that the people in thoter, although many them have
[00:20:56] shown some solidarity with the people who are still there, the the
[00:21:00] migrants, many them are minors, so that procedure for
[00:21:03] repatriation is a bit more complex, they have shown
[00:21:07] solidarity, the authorities they have taken the most the
[00:21:11] necessary humanitarian steps, i think there's a sort
[00:21:15] of a divided feeling between compassion and concern for
[00:21:18] those individuals, to arrived on the beach uh with
[00:21:22] with literally just the clothes on their back uh versus the
[00:21:26] massive numbers that that it flooded in um as we know the
[00:21:30] population of thot is around 80,000 so it was almost the
[00:21:34] same number of migrants who arrived on on the shores so this
[00:21:37] obviously um caus caused people to sort of retreat into their
[00:21:41] homes close up shops etc. um so I think there is there
[00:21:45] is this rather awkward um confrontation that people are having to
[00:21:49] face here. Spain themselves, how to what extent do
[00:21:53] we show our concern and our compassion for
[00:21:56] those in in the position the migrants versus
[00:22:00] our sense of security and um our
[00:22:03] sense of sort of secured borders, so yeah I think it's a very
[00:22:07] it's a very difficult difficult one for for many people here in
[00:22:11] Spain. Let me put that question or similar one to you if you
[00:22:15] would mind, can Europe genuinely maintain secure
[00:22:19] borders? whilst meeting its humanitarian
[00:22:22] obligations?
[00:22:26] well uh, showing compassion and helping genuine
[00:22:30] asylum seekers should not be happening by
[00:22:33] physical breakdown of border fences like
[00:22:37] now, there should be centers
[00:22:41] set up or even embassies, consulates
[00:22:44] handling asylum requests in the countries of origin or the
[00:22:48] first safe country. people
[00:22:50] come from, so their paperwork can be checked, can be
[00:22:53] verified. Our first concern should be the security
[00:22:57] and the interest of Europe and European citizens, and what we have seen in
[00:23:01] the last decade since the 2015 migration crisis, is
[00:23:05] that mass illegal immigration has
[00:23:09] not led into integration, it has not
[00:23:13] benefited economically like it was claimed by many governments
[00:23:17] at the time, and and the compassion. should be with
[00:23:21] genuine refugees and not people who break down borders
[00:23:25] and who are not actually fleeing any
[00:23:28] violence at home. you cannot claim that there is no
[00:23:32] government, that there's a failed state in Morocco, that uh
[00:23:36] that these 70,00 people who crossed the border
[00:23:39] illegal, their lives were at l risk, because tens of
[00:23:43] thousands them returned then afterwards willingly by
[00:23:47] themselves. on the back, what wonder? just said
[00:23:50] there, Pablo, do you think that this crisis has
[00:23:54] somewhat strengthened anti-immigration parties
[00:23:57] across Europe now, and particularly ahead of
[00:24:01] upcoming elections,
[00:24:03] what effect do you think it's had?
[00:24:04] it might do, and it's it's not a good look i wonight, it's it's a terrible look, and the
[00:24:08] images that are coming over are not
[00:24:14] in Spain as well, and theota itself, it still remains a fairly
[00:24:17] divided society, if you look at the government, in Selta, for example, it's half to the
[00:24:21] left, half to the right, pretty much mirroring the rest of Spain to a great
[00:24:25] extent. I don't think is necessarily the case that, people across
[00:24:29] Spain or across Europe have seen migration as as a great
[00:24:38] Spain is a very particular situation as well, right? I still don't
[00:24:41] think, and I would never bet whatever you want to say about Pedro Sanchez, and he's made a
[00:24:45] mistake here, and this is not a good look for his government. Pedro Sanchez is a
[00:24:49] political... survival expert right, whenever you see him he's down and whoever you think
[00:24:53] he's under crisis, he's not going to be able to come out of, he always manages to
[00:24:57] find a way, he's a great politician, he knows how to handle and manage a
[00:25:01] particular crisis, i wouldn't bet against him uh, but we never
[00:25:04] know right, and we don't know what's going to happen, i think he has other
[00:25:08] problems at home, particularly around corruption and all the corruption scandals around his
[00:25:12] government, this doesn't help, would it be determinant factor across
[00:25:16] elections in spain, i'm not too sure, pablo, thank you
[00:25:23] changed attitudes in southern Spain where you
[00:25:27] are? I think it's quite early to to make those kinds
[00:25:30] of comments regarding changing attitudes. I mean, I think it's
[00:25:34] also fair to say, however, that just to get back to Pedro
[00:25:38] Sanchez fairly ambitious decision to um
[00:25:42] regularize, as they put it here in Spain, over
[00:25:45] million migrants, I think
[00:25:49] the... amongst the Spanish population, there was not a massive
[00:25:52] pushback against that idea, and I think also to be fair,
[00:25:56] there was a lot of logic in that decision, all
[00:26:00] these people who have now... and I'd like emphasize that
[00:26:04] they have, the million plus have only applied for
[00:26:07] regularization, they have not yet been given that, all
[00:26:11] these people were already working in Spain, they were part the
[00:26:15] economy, the majority of Spanish speakers, the majority
[00:26:19] are under 45, and two-thirds them
[00:26:23] have educational qualifications well beyond secondary
[00:26:26] school, so in some ways this could be seen as a
[00:26:30] genuine attempt to approach. the migration
[00:26:33] issue uh from more
[00:26:35] economic pr pragmatic
[00:26:39] approach and certainly i think that is how Pedro sanches's
[00:26:43] government sort of sold this decision to the Spanish people.
[00:26:46] this situation now is obviously almost like the other side the
[00:26:50] coin and it's true it creates a sense perhaps
[00:26:54] of fear and hesitancy but i think it would be
[00:26:58] a mistake to try and conflate the two the two
[00:27:09] your thoughts, and if you'd like more context and firsth
[00:27:12] reporting on Spain's immigration challenges, check out our sister program
[00:27:16] beyond borders and their episode, no pain, no Spain,
[00:27:19] risking death to reach Europe. The team have traveled to
[00:27:23] felter, the city at the center of this migration crisis, find
[00:27:27] it on their YouTube channel, Beyondborders at TRT World,
[00:27:31] you can also see more'. discussion and debate on our own youtube channel,
[00:27:35] search roundtable trt world, and of course you can listen to
[00:27:39] selected episodes wherever you get your podcast, but for now from
[00:27:42] me and all the team here, goodbye and thanks for
[00:27:45] watching,
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