TRTWORLD — Beyond The Game
20260806 053000 UTC
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[00:00:01] of
[00:00:10] Hello, you're watching TRT World, I'm Lequest of Burek,
[00:00:12] in a reminder
[00:00:13] of of our main stories today. Iran says it's reached an
[00:00:16] agreement with Oman a route for ships transiting the straight of
[00:00:20] Homo's, but Tehran has also warned that the
[00:00:23] a agreement doesn't guarantee safe passage through the straight due to
[00:00:27] of the US naval
[00:00:29] of blockade. of Officials in... Washington had hoped an agreement to open the straight would
[00:00:32] happen this week. President Trump says talks with Iran are still ongoing
[00:00:36] despite Tehran earlier denying holding direct
[00:00:40] negotiations with the US.
[00:00:44] I can say that the latest situation is that almost all
[00:00:49] in of the topics are under discussion, the map, the transit routes, the entering and exiting of maritime
[00:00:53] traffic and those
[00:00:55] of bilateral site agreements with Oman, because it's not just map, these
[00:00:59] fundamental.
[00:01:00] of
[00:01:14] of
[00:01:20] a
[00:01:21] of
[00:01:30] in Madjal Salem, the strikes also hit targets
[00:01:34] of inside designated pilot zone, all
[00:01:36] of this of taking place whilst delegates from both countries are in Rome
[00:01:39] discussing the next phase of a
[00:01:42] of gradual Israel withdraw from southern
[00:01:44] in Lebanon under a US broker
[00:01:46] mechanism.
[00:01:49] of Ukrainian of president of Voladimir Zelensky has once again asked European allies for more
[00:01:52] support following massive Russian strike. Zelenski says Moscow wants to
[00:01:56] further
[00:01:57] of escalate of the conflict with ballistic missiles at least. 20 people were
[00:02:01] killed, dozens
[00:02:02] a injured in strikes on Ukraine since
[00:02:05] Wednesday. Myanmar's leader is in Thailand on an
[00:02:09] official visit as Bangkok pushes for re-engagement with its wartorn
[00:02:13] neighbor and
[00:02:14] a the regional
[00:02:14] a block Asian. They've been barred from Asian summon since
[00:02:18] 2021, when Minong stage accu
[00:02:22] against the elected government of Angsan
[00:02:24] of suchi. It led to a civil war that killed an estimated 100,00
[00:02:28] people.
[00:02:32] That is your news, now it's round
[00:02:34] table.
[00:02:44] of of Divisions
[00:02:48] of within the European Union have been exposed after more than
[00:02:51] 60,000 migrants surged into the Spanish
[00:02:54] enclave filter from Morocco. President
[00:02:57] of the EU Commissioner Vondelen.
[00:03:00] a has called for stronger border controls and a unified approach
[00:03:04] to migration, but how does the block move forward amid
[00:03:07] strange
[00:03:08] of relations, and why did so many people storm the border on
[00:03:12] the same
[00:03:12] day?
[00:03:21] of of
[00:03:28] hello and welcome to round! table, I'm Ryan and Jon Jones. Europe's
[00:03:32] migration policy is under scrutiny after the Moroccan
[00:03:36] spanish border was overwhelmed last week and tens of
[00:03:39] thousands of migrants swam, scrambled and stampeded their
[00:03:43] way into the Spanish City felter. Most
[00:03:46] of the migrants have been returned home, but many are living on the
[00:03:50] streets with no shelter, food nor
[00:03:52] of water. Dozens lost their lives, attempting the
[00:03:55] journey. Well, Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez has blamed human.
[00:04:00] traffickers for the crisis, whilst other European Union
[00:04:04] states have accused him of being soft on
[00:04:08] migrants. they came
[00:04:11] in their thousands, some swam desperately trying to
[00:04:15] make it to shore, others rushed the border. by the end
[00:04:19] of the day, more than 60,000 migrants had made it into the
[00:04:23] of Spanish enclave of thaalter. i prefer
[00:04:27] to die here than to go my back to go.
[00:04:31] Fauta is one of two Spanish territories in North Africa
[00:04:35] and she is a land border with Morocco, to get there, people
[00:04:38] often swim from the Moroccan town of
[00:04:41] of Fneidec, which is about 5 km away. For some, it
[00:04:45] was deadly journey, at
[00:04:47] of least 75 people died in the crossing, mostly from
[00:04:51] drowning. With
[00:04:52] a resident population of only 83,000, the influx
[00:04:56] overwhelmed thealter, and the army was deployed.
[00:05:10] of yesterday deserves
[00:05:13] our strongest reproach and our firmest
[00:05:16] condemnation.
[00:05:20] far right political parties and protesters have accused the leader of
[00:05:24] being lacks over border control, while the crisis has
[00:05:28] exposed divisions in Europe over migrant policy.
[00:05:32] sanchez has blamed human traffickers for spreading rumors about recent
[00:05:36] Spanish Supreme Court ruling that migrants arriving by sea
[00:05:40] cannot immediately be returned. my friend has called me
[00:05:43] there that the border is open, yes serve
[00:05:47] yourself on border, and Sanchez has criticized some EU
[00:05:51] countries for what he called a selfish response.
[00:05:55] Italy's prime minister Georgia Malone temporarily suspended the
[00:05:58] EU's border free Shingin arrangement with Spain a move backed
[00:06:02] by Finland and Denmark. At an EU emergency
[00:06:06] meeting, 22 the block's 27 member states called for
[00:06:10] coordinated action. "most the 60,000 migrants have
[00:06:14] now returned to Morocco many voluntarily.
[00:06:18] It's really tough, everyone there got stopped and arrested. They don't want to
[00:06:22] sell groceries to anyone of those arriving. Spain is
[00:06:26] now securing Fayalter's border as the country's top court
[00:06:29] investigates just how this mass crossing was able to
[00:06:33] happen. Well, let's
[00:06:37] meet our guests joining us from Malager in southern Spain as journalist Zoe
[00:06:41] Base in Budapest." We have Andreas Lazlo, an
[00:06:44] Hungarian politician and member the European Parliament, he's part
[00:06:48] the group Patriots for Europe. And here in the studio we have
[00:06:52] Pablo Calderon Martinez, associate professor in politics and
[00:06:56] international relations at northeastern University,
[00:07:00] London. Now let's start with the sheer scale,
[00:07:04] Pablo of this particular surge,
[00:07:06] 60,00 migrants, I
[00:07:09] mean it's almost an unimaginable number, it's...
[00:07:12] huge Spanish authorities say it was down to
[00:07:15] misinformation which fueled this rush to the
[00:07:19] border. Do we have any clearer a picture now of
[00:07:22] what actually happened? Unfortunately, I think we
[00:07:26] don't have clear picture of what exactly happened. I think it's very interesting to see
[00:07:30] the huge numbers are you say something unprecedented. We've had this sort of crisis before and this
[00:07:34] sort of issues happening in the ankle before, but this is the the first time it's
[00:07:38] happening such magnitude and such numbers. There's a lot of information, lot
[00:07:41] of different versions. going around in Spain about what exactly happened and there's a lot of
[00:07:45] information and theories perhaps from the Spanish side, I'll be very
[00:07:49] interested to hear as well and to find out more from the Moroccan government what exactly
[00:07:53] happened from the Moroccan side the border, because it all seems to indicate
[00:07:56] that for whatever reason the Moroccans decided to let this group of
[00:08:00] migrants through, there was some sort of filtration as well, it was mostly
[00:08:03] Moroccans, not people from the rest of Africa, so I'm
[00:08:07] curious to see what happens, we've seen this happen before as political gamemanship from
[00:08:10] Morocco between Spain so... "I think we don't have the full picture yet,
[00:08:14] and we don't know what's going on behind the scenes in political terms. Uh, other than that, it
[00:08:18] seems to be an issue of misinformation, and the ruling that came on from the Supreme
[00:08:22] Court in Spain that was misunderstood or misinformed across Morocco in
[00:08:26] particular, that led to the impression that Microscoges come to Spain and they were going to be
[00:08:30] allowed into the Shengen area, which was completely false as we've seen and most them have
[00:08:34] come back, but yeah, it seems to be a combination of factors and I'm not sure we have the full picture
[00:08:37] yet, no um, well let's bring in Zoe, because Zoey, you
[00:08:41] were..." reporting from southern Spain as this
[00:08:45] all happened, so what were authorities and local communities
[00:08:49] telling you, what were they saying as the events
[00:08:51] unfolded? well, I think there was just
[00:08:55] a lot of shock, frankly, um, people in
[00:08:59] Thuta, the residents of Thoter feel somewhat
[00:09:03] betrayed, I think by the by the Spanish government, the
[00:09:07] central government, um, they they
[00:09:10] complained that basically how... is it possible that there was no
[00:09:14] indication um in in the preceeding hours of preceeding
[00:09:18] days that they were going to be over 6000, even
[00:09:22] 7000 people arriving
[00:09:26] on their on their coastline, and indeed the
[00:09:29] president of thoter did mention that in the day or
[00:09:33] two preceeding what happened, there were
[00:09:37] increasing numbers of of people arriving, i think between
[00:09:40] one and 2ous. so there does seem to have been
[00:09:44] some indication that something was a
[00:09:47] miss, um, that things were different from
[00:09:50] usual, but some have suggested that
[00:09:54] Spanish police did not take this, perhaps did not take this
[00:09:57] seriously or yeah, did not have the have the full
[00:10:00] information, so I think people have have been shocked, frankly.
[00:10:04] I did want to ask Sori, did it appear to be very much
[00:10:08] a spontaneous rush, or was there any evidence of organized?
[00:10:12] criminal smuggling involved from where you were when you were
[00:10:16] reporting? yeah, I mean, I think that's that's very difficult
[00:10:20] to say that something was organized, some the people
[00:10:23] who were spoken. to um said that they had been
[00:10:27] guided by um Moroccan
[00:10:30] authorities, but that is according that's on the ground in
[00:10:34] though, that was according to some journalists from the New York
[00:10:37] Times, I think it's very, very hard at the stage to ascertain what
[00:10:41] role criminal organizations played, although this is
[00:10:45] something
[00:10:45] that the Spanish government and the Moroccan government have both put
[00:10:48] forward, but
[00:10:50] the but the actual evidence for that is is, we have to
[00:10:54] wait
[00:10:54] to to confirm. those those comments ones, Pedro sanchez traveled
[00:10:58] to algeres just days before this latest
[00:11:02] latest surge into thelter, is this
[00:11:05] timing significant?
[00:11:09] well, it could be a that relationship between Spain,
[00:11:13] Morocco and Algeria is delicate one, it's a delicate
[00:11:16] triangle, diplomatic triangle, but currently there's
[00:11:20] more questions than answers about what were the reasons for this
[00:11:24] un' precedented invasion into
[00:11:27] Selta, there have been previous in previous years such
[00:11:31] incidents, but not at this scale, and that is
[00:11:35] why with the patriots for Europe group we asked for an extraordinary plenary
[00:11:38] session the European Parliament, to go into the details, see
[00:11:42] what's going on. I know that the interior ministers
[00:11:46] the European Union countries are meeting an online video
[00:11:50] conference to get some of some answers of what
[00:11:53] happened exactly. Uh, honestly, it's very difficult to
[00:11:57] imagine that the Spanish government or the Moroccan
[00:12:01] government did not know what was going to happen.
[00:12:04] 50, 60, 70,00 people crossing the borders
[00:12:08] illegally a day or two doesn't happen every day, it's not
[00:12:12] something that can go on notice, not something that should go on
[00:12:16] notice, and according to latest information, there are still a
[00:12:20] couple of thousand people left in Sauta, this
[00:12:24] is unacceptable. "this is a pressure on the city that
[00:12:27] is unacceptable, they have our full solidarity,
[00:12:31] they have our full support, but we need to find out what happened, that's
[00:12:35] why we are pushing for debate in the European parliament as well as soon
[00:12:39] as possible. unfortunately, the European people's party
[00:12:43] refused to have this extraordinary plenary
[00:12:46] debate, because they sided with the
[00:12:49] left. Pablos there saying that it's unlikely that the Spanish
[00:12:53] government didn't know about this. incoming surge, Spain has
[00:12:57] been criticized for reacting too slowly, what's the
[00:13:00] government's response and has it been
[00:13:04] inadequate? yeah, I think there is some fair criticism there,
[00:13:07] and I think there's been certainly the reaction was deem slow, and I think it
[00:13:11] was
[00:13:11] a failure more of anything of the intelligence services, security services, because there
[00:13:15] should have been some indication, I think at the very least there was a failure of
[00:13:19] cooperation on communication between the Moroccans and the Spanish, and I
[00:13:23] said before, we don't... really know why this happened right? so
[00:13:27] there's something more to the story, I'm sure, but something of course
[00:13:30] that at least I'm not priv to, and there will be more to the story, we not entirely
[00:13:34] clear why the morokans in particular first let these
[00:13:38] migrants go through and get so close to the border, because usually is
[00:13:41] buffer on the Moroccan side the border, so what changed, what made them
[00:13:45] let them sort of as it were go free uh, secondly why they didn't
[00:13:49] alert the Spanish authorities, and thirdly, why weren't the Spanish authorities
[00:13:53] in the know of this agglomeration? people and this could happen so there's certainly some
[00:13:56] criticism there that could be made uh, i think once the
[00:14:00] situation evolved, i think the pedo sanchez government tried to react
[00:14:03] quickly, we saw how the situation came back under control more or less
[00:14:07] relatively quickly and things seem to be more or less going back to norman,
[00:14:11] normal, yes there's still some uh migrants there that are left uh, but it's
[00:14:15] not something in the numbers that we saw and the majority the migrants went back pretty
[00:14:19] much immediately as soon as they got to to to celta and spain has said that
[00:14:23] Morocco has cooperate. with
[00:14:26] returns, how much responsibility should
[00:14:29] Morocco bear in this incident? I mean to some extent
[00:14:33] Morocco has, the responsibility of Morocco is not to protect spanish borders,
[00:14:37] right? the responsibility to protect spanish borders is of Spain, but also this
[00:14:40] cooperation between the two,
[00:14:41] and there has to be cooperation, and this is has been a historically complicated
[00:14:45] relationship, that to be fair has been getting better the last few
[00:14:48] years. um, why this happen, I'm not entirely sure, we've
[00:14:52] seen Morocco use the issue of migration. as a political tool
[00:14:56] somehow to extract certain positions and and it's a way of
[00:15:00] adding a little bit of leverage onto the Spanish government, it could be that this was
[00:15:04] a little bit of a warning shot the Moroccan government
[00:15:08] anticipating perhaps a change of government in Spain and saying listen, we still
[00:15:12] have this tool at our disposal, so if anything changes in the position
[00:15:16] of Spain visas Morocco or Algeria, we can always
[00:15:19] open the floodgas as it were, which is going to be problematic for
[00:15:22] Spain, I don't
[00:15:24] know reality. "we don't really know, but there's all sorts of different versions of what's going on,
[00:15:27] and I'm really trying to figure
[00:15:29] it out like the rest of us. Yeah, aren't we all? Pablo,
[00:15:32] Zoe, how just how politically damaging is this
[00:15:36] proving to be for?" Pedro Sanchez, yeah, I,
[00:15:40] I think it is putting pressure on him definitely, I mean amongst the
[00:15:44] Spanish population, obviously those people who
[00:15:48] were already supportive the partido
[00:15:51] popular, the center right party or even the far right
[00:15:55] fox, this is just
[00:15:56] you know fuel for the fire, um, basically this
[00:16:00] idea that Pedro Sanchez's government just don't have
[00:16:03] control the borders the the country.
[00:16:07] um and it's fair to say that people here on the ground in Malager have felt
[00:16:11] a certain amount of shock and concern if you consider
[00:16:15] that thoughter is a one-hour fairy ride
[00:16:19] away from um from the Spanish mainland so I think
[00:16:23] that has really you know fueled um those people
[00:16:26] already in opposition to Sanchez um I think
[00:16:30] also we see here Sanchez looking fairly
[00:16:33] isolated within the European context and I think that's
[00:16:37] particularly what he and his government are now complaining about at European
[00:16:41] level, saying that they were offered very, very little
[00:16:44] support, um, and 22 out of 27 European
[00:16:48] nations basically signed letter that
[00:16:51] suggested that the problem lay with Sanchez and his
[00:16:54] government and his migration policies, so I think
[00:16:58] yeah, I think Sanchez at this point probably is feeling a little bit, a little
[00:17:02] bit isolated. Let's talk about the migration debate within Europe.
[00:17:06] Ondras, "you've argued that the EU migration
[00:17:10] pact, it creates incentives for
[00:17:13] illegal migration, so what should
[00:17:16] Europe be doing differently, and in particular
[00:17:20] looking at Hungary as an example of of Europe's or
[00:17:24] one of Europe's tougher borders? well,
[00:17:27] the government Pedro Sanchez has done the same mistake as the
[00:17:31] European Union has in terms of being very weak on border protection
[00:17:35] against illegal immigration, just to put this into context, this
[00:17:39] crisis, the last couple of months in Spain have
[00:17:42] been about the question of legalizing hundreds of
[00:17:46] thousands in Spain and basically
[00:17:50] granting them regular status, although they entered
[00:17:53] illegally. if then there's another piece of news
[00:17:57] and we've discussed this already that some people
[00:18:01] it was circulating in networks or maybe even in media
[00:18:05] that people who enter sota illegally will be
[00:18:09] allowed to stay, well that is fueled by the months
[00:18:13] and months previously where the Spanish
[00:18:17] government has moved forward on legalizing hundreds of thousands
[00:18:21] of illegals, so obviously there's a pull factor created
[00:18:24] by politics, created by the socialist government in Spain and also
[00:18:28] created with what you mentioned the EU migration pact, because what is the
[00:18:32] EU migration pact about, it's about distributing the
[00:18:36] burden of... immigration across Europe to
[00:18:40] all countries and without stopping illegal
[00:18:43] entry, that should be the first priority the European Union,
[00:18:47] that was the first priority of our government in Hungary since the
[00:18:51] 2015 migration crisis and it was
[00:18:54] successful one, you can stop
[00:18:57] illegal immigrants at the borders, um, of
[00:19:01] course there's a lot of pressure from media, there's
[00:19:05] a lot of pressure from NGOs. "and there was a lot of pressure on Hungary from the
[00:19:09] European Commission, just to remind the viewers, we were find 1 million
[00:19:13] euros per day plus a sum of 200 million
[00:19:16] euros to change our laws and to allow illegal
[00:19:19] immigrants to enter the territory of Hungary and therefore the
[00:19:23] Shengen zone and do asylum
[00:19:27] procedures for illegals who are already in the EU, then
[00:19:31] usually disappeared, so this is very
[00:19:35] bad, there is very bad..." 10 years looking back in
[00:19:39] terms of European migration policy and water protection and what
[00:19:43] has we have witnessed in Spain in the last couple of months now
[00:19:46] is a turbo boosting of this very bad
[00:19:50] policy and basically giving out a
[00:19:53] free blank check to legal immigrants, you're telling them, well
[00:19:57] you're here illegally we'll just legalize you. what
[00:20:01] should people think who were contemplating on entering the
[00:20:04] EU illegally, if not that this is the moment?
[00:20:08] to go on that, look, Pablo Andres mentioned there, the suspended
[00:20:12] schengen arrangements backed by Finland
[00:20:15] and Denmark, that was by Italy, what's your opinion on
[00:20:19] that on
[00:20:21] Andres, Andreas's thoughts that was it justified, not at all, I mean at end
[00:20:24] the the day the schengen area was not in any danger right, the still a
[00:20:28] and Selta has very specific arrangement with the rest of
[00:20:31] continental Europe as it were, and there have to be border controls and there are
[00:20:35] passport controls going from theuta to... to continental spain as it were right,
[00:20:39] so
[00:20:39] not a single mangrad made it to the Shengen area. I don't see,
[00:20:42] I don't remember, I haven't recalled, I haven't seen anybody from this particular web of migrants
[00:20:46] appearing at the borders of Hungary or any other European. country, the
[00:20:50] vast majority them went back and turned back and return to Morocco, yes,
[00:20:54] this shouldn't have happened, it's a very bad look, right? it's a terrible
[00:20:58] look, and there may be an argument to be made about
[00:21:01] this has been partially influenced by the recent legalization or
[00:21:05] regularization of migrants in spain from Pedro sanchez, and we'll find out
[00:21:09] about that more. the regularization of
[00:21:13] of of migrants that just happened in April in Spain was primarily aimed at
[00:21:17] Latin American, particularly Colombian, Venezuela and
[00:21:20] Ecuadorians, some Mexican, Argentinians a lot more migrants from Latin America,
[00:21:24] there were of course some people from Northern Africa as well, right? But it's a different
[00:21:28] different phenomenon. Most migrants that come through Europe from Spain
[00:21:32] do not do it through the enclave of Theuta because they still have to go through
[00:21:36] the sea all the way to continental Spain and it's a lot harder to do so,
[00:21:39] so it is not a great look, it's terrible, but I I think I'll be very careful with
[00:21:43] the language as well, how we portrayed this as well, this was not an invasion, the
[00:21:47] Shengen area was not under threat, it was... terrible event and
[00:21:51] let's not forget as well the human cost of this crisis, because at least
[00:21:55] 70 people lost their lives in something that was completely avoidable,
[00:21:58] right? so I think we have to be careful with how
[00:22:00] the we portray this, how we paint this? yeah, absolutely. I mean, Pablo said it there, Zoe,
[00:22:04] let's not forget about the more than 50 people that
[00:22:07] reportedly um dead as result of of
[00:22:11] this, has the political debate here in
[00:22:15] your view overshadowed the the humanitarian
[00:22:18] tragedy that we saw? Yeah, I think I think that's
[00:22:22] probably fair to say, the focus has been on the
[00:22:25] politics um, rather than the lives lost,
[00:22:29] we know that the people in Thouta, although many them have
[00:22:33] shown some solidarity with the people who are still there, the the
[00:22:36] migrants, many them are minors, um, so that procedure for
[00:22:40] repatriation is a bit more complex, um, they have shown
[00:22:44] solidarity, the authorities there have taken the most the
[00:22:47] necessary humanitarian steps. um, I think there's a sort
[00:22:51] of a divided feeling between compassion and concern for
[00:22:55] those individuals who arrived on the beach
[00:22:58] with with literally just the clothes on their back versus the
[00:23:02] massive numbers that that it flooded in um as we know the
[00:23:06] population of thot is around 8000 so it was almost the
[00:23:10] same number of migrants who arrived on on the shores so this
[00:23:14] obviously um caus caused people to sort of retreat into their
[00:23:18] homes close up shops. etc. so I think there is there is
[00:23:22] this rather awkward confrontation that people are having to face
[00:23:26] here in Spain themselves. How to what extent do we
[00:23:30] show our concern and our compassion for those in in
[00:23:34] the position the migrants versus our sense of
[00:23:37] security and our sense of sort of
[00:23:41] secured borders. So yeah, I think it's a very, it's a very
[00:23:45] difficult difficult one for for many people here in Spain. Let
[00:23:49] me put that question. or similar one to you, if you wouldn't mind, can Europe
[00:23:52] genuinely maintain secure
[00:23:55] borders whilst meeting its humanitarian
[00:23:58] obligations?
[00:24:02] well uh, showing compassion and helping genuine
[00:24:06] asylum seekers should not be happening by
[00:24:10] physical breakdown of border fences like
[00:24:14] now, there should be
[00:24:17] centers set up or even embassies,
[00:24:20] consulates handling asylum requests in the countries of
[00:24:24] origin or the first safe country where people come from, so their
[00:24:28] paperwork can be checked, can be verified. our
[00:24:32] first concern should be the security and the interests of Europe and
[00:24:36] European citizens and what we have seen in the last decade since the
[00:24:39] 2015 migration crisis is that mass
[00:24:43] illegal immigration has not led into
[00:24:47] integration, it has not been... benefited
[00:24:50] economically like it was claimed by many governments at the
[00:24:54] time and and the compassion should be with
[00:24:57] genuine refugees and not people who break down borders
[00:25:01] and who are not actually fleeing any
[00:25:05] violence at home
[00:25:06] you cannot claim that there
[00:25:08] is no government that there's a failed state in Morocco
[00:25:11] that that these 7000 people who crossed the
[00:25:15] border illegal les were at risk because tens
[00:25:19] of them returned then afterwards willingly
[00:25:23] by themselves, on the back of what Andreas just
[00:25:27] said there, Pablo, do you think that this crisis
[00:25:30] has somewhat strengthened anti-immigration parties
[00:25:34] across Europe now, and particularly ahead of
[00:25:38] upcoming elections,
[00:25:39] what effect do you think it's had? it might do, and it's it's
[00:25:42] not a good look, I won't
[00:25:44] deny it, it's a terrible look, and the images that are coming over are not great,
[00:25:48] I hope not, right, um, Uh, in Spain as well,
[00:25:52] and Theuta itself, it still remains a fairly divided society, if you look at
[00:25:56] the government in in theuta for example, it's half to the left, half to the right, pretty
[00:25:59] much mirroring the rest of Spain to a great extent. "I don't think it's
[00:26:03] necessarily the case that
[00:26:05] you know people across Spain or across Europe have seen migration as as a great
[00:26:08] failure. I live in South London, you know, I think it's particularly
[00:26:12] well there. Um, so, and Spain is a very particular
[00:26:16] situation as well, right?
[00:26:17] I still don't think, and I would never bet whatever you want to say about Pedro Sanchez,
[00:26:21] and he's made a mistake here, and this is not a good look for his government. Pedro Sanchez is
[00:26:25] a political survival expert, right? Whenever you see him he's down and whoever you
[00:26:29] think he's under a crisis, he's not going to be able to come out of. "he always manages
[00:26:33] to find a way, he's a great politician, he knows how to handle and manage a
[00:26:37] particular crisis. I wouldn't bet against him, but we never
[00:26:41] know right, and we don't know what's going to happen. I think he has other
[00:26:45] problems at home, particularly around corruption and all the corruption scandals around his
[00:26:49] government. This doesn't help, will it be determinant factor across
[00:26:52] elections in Spain? I'm not too sure. Pablo, thank
[00:26:56] you very much. Zoe, let's ask you, has the crisis
[00:26:59] changed attitudes in S Spain where you
[00:27:03] are? I think it's quite early to to make those kinds
[00:27:07] of comments regarding changing attitudes. I mean, I think it's
[00:27:11] also fair to say, however, that just to get back to Pedro
[00:27:15] Sanchez fairly ambitious decision to um
[00:27:18] regularize, as they put it here in Spain, over
[00:27:22] million migrants. I think
[00:27:26] they amongst the Spanish population, there was not a massive
[00:27:29] pushback against that idea, and I think also to... to be fair, there
[00:27:33] was a lot of logic in that decision, all these
[00:27:37] people who have now applied, and I'd like emphasize that they
[00:27:40] have, the million plus have only applied for
[00:27:44] regularization, they have not yet been given that, these
[00:27:48] people all were already working in Spain, they were part the
[00:27:52] economy, the majority of Spanish speakers, the majority
[00:27:55] are under 45, and two-thirds them
[00:27:59] have qualif education qualifications well beyond. secondary
[00:28:03] school, so in some ways this could be seen as a
[00:28:06] genuine attempt to approach the migration
[00:28:09] issue from more
[00:28:11] economic pr pragmatic
[00:28:15] approach, and certainly I think that is how Pedro sanches
[00:28:19] government sort of sold this decision to the Spanish people,
[00:28:23] this situation now is obviously almost like the other side the
[00:28:27] coin, and it's true, it creates a sense perhaps
[00:28:31] of fear and his... but I think it would be um
[00:28:34] a mistake to try and conflate the two the two
[00:28:38] events. We're going to have to like leave it there, but Zoe, thank you very
[00:28:42] much, Andreas, Pablo, really appreciate your time and your
[00:28:46] thoughts and if you'd
[00:28:47] like more context and first hand reporting on Spain's immigration
[00:28:50] challenges, check out our sister program beyond borders and their
[00:28:54] episode, no pain, no Spain, risking death to reach
[00:28:58] Europe. The team have traveled to felter, the city at the
[00:29:01] center of this. migration crisis, find it on their YouTube
[00:29:05] channel Beyondborders at TRT wells. You can also see more
[00:29:09] discussion and debate on our own YouTube channel. Search Roundtable
[00:29:12] TRT World. And of course you can listen to selected episodes
[00:29:16] wherever you get your podcast, but for now from me and all the team here.
[00:29:20] Goodbye and thanks for
[00:29:21] watching.
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[00:29:46] the remotest reaches to the teaming metropolises.
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