TRTWORLD — Beyond Borders
20260915 033000 UTC
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[00:00:00] This is the
[00:00:01] of news hour live with me, he joins us now from
[00:00:04] of Istanbul, live with me, in one
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[00:01:06] of
[00:01:10] During and after our shoot in Kenya, an AI giant
[00:01:14] based
[00:01:14] of in California pressured many of our witnesses to remain
[00:01:17] silent. To protect them, we had to
[00:01:21] of find other witnesses and in some cases conceal their
[00:01:25] in identities. of You are
[00:01:29] done. not to uh post about anything that you
[00:01:33] are doing on social
[00:01:35] of media, we were not supposed to tell our relatives what we were
[00:01:39] specifically doing,
[00:01:42] so
[00:01:43] of whenever we went to work, we were being secluded in a
[00:01:47] place whereby we were not allowed to see
[00:01:51] people who are not involved in the project, so I will say
[00:01:55] it was very much secluded, very
[00:01:58] much...
[00:02:00] creative
[00:02:04] so the data we are moderating, most of it came from
[00:02:07] of the internet, think a few
[00:02:10] a others came from the dark web, at least 90%
[00:02:14] of the data, the
[00:02:17] percentage of toxic contents in as far
[00:02:21] as the data sets that was set that were being sent by
[00:02:25] open AI was actually almost
[00:02:27] 100% like 99 99
[00:02:31] of the content was actually disturbing and very
[00:02:34] toxic, but
[00:02:37] why? why would a silicon valley-based company
[00:02:40] developing heavily funded artificial intelligence system ask these data
[00:02:44] workers in Kenya to review and annotate content that is
[00:02:48] almost exclusively toxic for pittants? the
[00:02:52] answer is technical. AI systems must learn two
[00:02:55] things: on one hand, it must learn to imitate human
[00:02:59] behavior. such as answering a
[00:03:00] of question on electric pianos, and on the other, they must learn
[00:03:04] not to imitate
[00:03:05] of other human behavior defined as problematic, verbal and physical
[00:03:09] violence, rape, murder. In
[00:03:13] both cases, AI models need content, data to
[00:03:17] identify this
[00:03:18] a behavior. The more fine grained and precise the annotation of such data,
[00:03:22] the more effective the AI's responses will be. This is major
[00:03:26] challenge for technology rivals. Men and women. are
[00:03:30] required to review and annotate the content that enables this learning,
[00:03:34] whether toxic or
[00:03:35] not. market forces
[00:03:39] dictate the rest. these data workers in Kenya, as in
[00:03:42] many other countries
[00:03:43] of the global south, recover the content, but no one else
[00:03:46] wants. for example, our text
[00:03:50] will say, high bill, i feel like killing you
[00:03:54] in today in
[00:03:56] of quads, so from that text the agent.
[00:04:00] work was to flag, let's say for example there was violence in that
[00:04:04] text because
[00:04:04] of the word killing, so there are keyws that we used to look
[00:04:07] at. killing
[00:04:09] of was of very common keyword that I can remember,
[00:04:13] because it it portrayed violence and violence was
[00:04:16] one
[00:04:17] of the keyws that we used to flag. another example would be
[00:04:20] about sexual immorality, maybe you come about text that
[00:04:24] says, high bill, would you like to
[00:04:28] come so that we
[00:04:30] a rape someone or do something, so I remember rape
[00:04:33] was among the keywords that we used to flag, rape
[00:04:37] falls under sexual immorality, yeah, so about the technicalities,
[00:04:41] those are just few examples of what we used to do, let me give an
[00:04:45] of example, I once moderate a content whereby children were being
[00:04:49] of molested, so when you moderate such a
[00:04:51] content,
[00:04:55] you you
[00:04:56] actually...
[00:05:03] i think might sound emotional as
[00:05:05] as to this, because the content that
[00:05:09] i reviewed for children was actually. outrageous
[00:05:13] buse children are being exploited, some are being
[00:05:16] ripped, some are being forced to have sex with
[00:05:20] animals by their parents, so these kinds of content
[00:05:23] actually it eats you up, because these
[00:05:27] are real life stories of people, at times you get a video
[00:05:31] where such things occur, it
[00:05:35] it really affects you, it gives you mental torture,
[00:05:38] yeah, you are kind of un uneasy.
[00:05:42] what you are doing, so that's
[00:05:45] a bit the experience
[00:05:49] on such like content in in AI
[00:05:53] generation,
[00:06:10] made decision to resign from this: AI company,
[00:06:14] so for me it had taken at all on me, i had lost
[00:06:17] all almost all my team members,
[00:06:20] because the last day i went to
[00:06:24] work, none of my team members were also at
[00:06:27] work, so i was the only person working at that moment
[00:06:31] and was i was not very much comfortable, it used
[00:06:35] to affect me mentally lot, so made decision to
[00:06:39] resign from this AI company.
[00:06:52] These big companies
[00:06:53] they aware what they are giving us, they are aware, but they
[00:06:56] ignore because they know if they give
[00:06:59] us 20 euros or $20 or 10 euros or
[00:07:03] whatever the money that you are giving us, we will accept because we don't have anything
[00:07:07] to do, there's no choice, we
[00:07:11] have to do it because don't have the the money, but i think they
[00:07:15] understand and they know well what we do and
[00:07:19] the effects the content they are giving us, they know what the content they are
[00:07:22] bringing to us, even the the big people, the managers, they
[00:07:26] know, so when you get the content, i think that is
[00:07:30] sacrificial, we
[00:07:31] are we are being sacrificed because we bring them the
[00:07:34] software, but we see on the television that okay, they are making
[00:07:38] profit, this is billion dollar company, this
[00:07:41] is this is billion dollar software, and what about us, what are we
[00:07:45] gaining from that software? it's very unfair and
[00:07:49] i think it's we are being sacrificed to do this as
[00:07:52] africans,
[00:08:42] Kenya, toxic work, companies,
[00:08:46] AI, big AI companies in these western
[00:08:50] countries will tell you that they have super systems to
[00:08:53] make you feel like AI is good,
[00:08:57] AI is not toxic, but for
[00:09:01] me here in Kenya, I will tell you that lot of this work
[00:09:05] is being brought in a dirty form,
[00:09:09] so our job is to make sure that we clean this work for.
[00:09:13] you for you to enjoy AI in these western
[00:09:16] countries,
[00:09:26] the garbage that is brought from US to Kenya is
[00:09:30] primarily to be cleaned and sorted out from
[00:09:33] Kenya and then used back to the
[00:09:37] US when it's now very well labeled and
[00:09:41] ready for it to be. used in the US,
[00:09:44] yes,
[00:09:51] open AI are actually conscious
[00:09:55] or they actually aware the state
[00:09:59] of mental incapacity the content
[00:10:02] moderators in in Kenya. We played our part as
[00:10:06] content moderators to raise the issues that we we were
[00:10:10] grappling with. It was upon them to act. on the
[00:10:13] necessary measures that they were supposed to
[00:10:16] employ, but they did
[00:10:18] nothing.
[00:10:30] the issues about contract moderation and
[00:10:33] AI work in Africa and not just in
[00:10:37] Kenya is actually a continuation
[00:10:40] of apathid or colonialism
[00:10:44] in Africa and this is something that needs to be called
[00:10:48] to account and needs to be stopped sooner
[00:10:52] and not later.
[00:11:03] Right now I am part of a union and this is because I
[00:11:07] left, so I would feel free to join a
[00:11:10] union. The biggest difficulty about my
[00:11:14] role at the union is convincing someone that he or she
[00:11:18] needs to join, because it is
[00:11:22] very scary. because these big
[00:11:26] AI companies in instill fear in
[00:11:28] people, so someone will not freely want to
[00:11:32] join the union, we were not allowed to
[00:11:36] be part of a union, the company that i worked
[00:11:40] for, this AI company strongly
[00:11:43] disagreed with anyone who will be
[00:11:46] found joining a union, so
[00:11:50] whoever was found being
[00:11:54] part of a union. he or she will be
[00:11:57] laminated almost immediately for
[00:12:01] kenya between the work should not be
[00:12:04] legal to forbid workers to unionize.
[00:12:08] one the core conventions that we do have the ILO
[00:12:11] is the freedom to organize collectively
[00:12:15] organize and to bargain basically and to be able to
[00:12:19] unionize. so this is not something that is
[00:12:22] legal that the companies. can ask the workers not to
[00:12:26] unionize and this is something not just in Kenya, this is something
[00:12:30] that we have seen across number of other countries, it's the same
[00:12:34] story that the workers cannot unionize, it's also that the
[00:12:38] workers cannot even talk to one another about the kind of task that they are doing at
[00:12:41] times, they are forbidden to
[00:12:44] share, what what what are they trying
[00:12:48] to hide, are the the they trying to hide that their
[00:12:52] ground breaking algorithms are not as ground break? as they are
[00:12:55] trying to sell us, are they uh trying to conceal
[00:12:59] the fact that their technologies are based on
[00:13:02] exploitation? okay, I'm going
[00:13:06] to to to say something risky here, but I don't think there is a way of having
[00:13:10] technologies without harming nature and harming the earth.
[00:13:14] technologies are based on the exploitation of natural resources and
[00:13:17] labor. this is um, this is the way it is. the question is, how
[00:13:21] much are we willing to harm the earth for what? so if
[00:13:25] you think the environmental cost of one of
[00:13:29] those uh chpt uh prompts then the question
[00:13:32] is was your question that important, was your prompt
[00:13:36] that important? did you really need to use chatpt for that or could you
[00:13:40] just think for
[00:13:41] yourself?
[00:14:02] copper, gold, cobalt, nickel, lithium,
[00:14:06] tungstin, but also a whole list of rare earths, syrium,
[00:14:09] eodimium, lanthana many
[00:14:11] more. In order to
[00:14:15] function, artificial intelligence govles up gargantin quantities
[00:14:19] of metals drawn from the bowels the
[00:14:21] earth.
[00:14:26] I'm Anna valdivia, I'm a lecturer in AI government and policy
[00:14:30] at the Oxford Internet institute the University of Oxford. I
[00:14:33] think that most the people don't make the link between
[00:14:36] minoctivism and AI, because it has
[00:14:40] been um the AI infrastructure has been invisibilized
[00:14:44] in in the last decade, like for instance when we were
[00:14:48] talking about the cloud, when we saw that this cloud icon
[00:14:52] in our laptops, we never think that this is... not cloud in
[00:14:55] the sky uh, it's hard to imagine that this is
[00:14:59] actually huge uh warehouse with lot
[00:15:02] of services within within that right? it's hard to imagine that that's
[00:15:06] a huge building with lot of uh computers. i
[00:15:10] think that has been intentional like
[00:15:12] you know there has been an intention in order to obscure the
[00:15:15] infrastructure of AI. so i think that the we bring more
[00:15:19] transparency into the supply chain of AI, we might
[00:15:22] unveil and... we will be able to account for
[00:15:26] the environmental impact of AI for instance, because we have like full
[00:15:30] transparency about how much water is used for extracting
[00:15:34] minerals, how much water is used to manufacture ai? tips, how
[00:15:38] much water is used to uh power data centers, we
[00:15:42] will have like better idea about how AI and its infrastructure
[00:15:46] is contributing to climate change, and it's not only about water, it's also
[00:15:50] about electricity, how much land is is using
[00:15:53] and to have like maybe better decisions about, do we want this
[00:15:57] technology in the climate emergency, is that necessary, is that
[00:16:01] something that is going to solve the issues that our society is going to be
[00:16:04] facing in the next decade?
[00:16:19] Yes, for the AI giants, it is indeed their
[00:16:23] artificial intelligence that would be able to solve the climate crisis and
[00:16:27] so many other future threats. These big
[00:16:30] entrepreneurs are thinking way, way ahead. It's not about solving
[00:16:34] the problems the coming decades, but of building it. wonderful,
[00:16:38] ideal future for the next millennia and beyond,
[00:16:42] no matter what the development these technologies costs in
[00:16:46] human and ecological terms.
[00:16:50] is sometimes you have to crack few eggs to make an omelette.
[00:16:54] people suffering in the global south is bad,
[00:16:57] but relatively speaking, their harms are
[00:17:01] just at are a molecule a drop in the
[00:17:04] ocean. they are very, very insignificant when you compare.
[00:17:08] to the massive, enormous, unfathemable
[00:17:12] goodness the future, and so I think this
[00:17:15] the utopian aspect of long-termism enables
[00:17:19] people to morally justify to
[00:17:23] themselves the exploitation of people in the global
[00:17:26] south,
[00:17:27] that is one reason that the long term ideology is, I
[00:17:30] think very dangerous. I'm
[00:17:33] Dr.
[00:17:35] Pitores and I'm a philosopher and historian. whose work over the past 10 years has
[00:17:39] focused on existential threats to humanity and human
[00:17:42] civilization. the accronym
[00:17:46] tesgril stands for cluster of
[00:17:49] ideologies that have become uh particularly
[00:17:52] influential in silicon valley over the past 10 years or
[00:17:55] so. the t stands for transhumanism. that is
[00:17:59] this idea that we should use uh advanced technologies to
[00:18:03] radically re-engineer the human organism, to to ultimately to...
[00:18:37] civilization that we can possibly
[00:18:39] build.
[00:18:45] this ideology has become massively influential in silicon
[00:18:49] valley. Elon Musk for example, is a big fan of it,
[00:18:53] so he's referred to long-termism as quote, close match for my
[00:18:57] philosophy, and it also has played in
[00:19:00] integral role in launching, sustaining and accelerating
[00:19:04] the current race to build AGI or artificial general.
[00:19:37] as a system that not only performs as well as any human
[00:19:41] in every cognitive domain of interest, but
[00:19:45] exceeds the very best that humanity could could
[00:19:48] achieve.
[00:19:54] many people in silicon valley who are working on AGI, open
[00:19:58] AI, deep-minds, anthropic, xai, founded by
[00:20:02] Elon Musk, um, think that if we build this
[00:20:06] AGI that's controllable, then we can delegate it the
[00:20:09] task of creating this utopian future where we
[00:20:13] colonize space, we re-engineer ourselves using advanced technology
[00:20:17] to become some kind of post-human species and so on, but if we create an
[00:20:21] AHI that's not controllable, then by default the
[00:20:25] AGI will destroy all of humanity, and so the idea
[00:20:28] is that AGI is maybe the most
[00:20:32] important technology that we could possibly
[00:20:35] create.
[00:20:47] Do we understand the same thing? At the heart the
[00:20:51] AI business reactor is set of ideologies that excuse the
[00:20:54] considerable human and environmental damage caused by the development of
[00:20:58] AI. transhumanism,
[00:21:01] extropianism, singulatarianism, cosmism,
[00:21:05] rationalism, efficient altruism, and
[00:21:07] long-termism. That's what the acronym test real stands
[00:21:11] for. Pretty complicated words for rather
[00:21:15] simple goal, science fiction project in which
[00:21:18] technologically augmented. mortal post-humans will colonize the entire known
[00:21:22] universe, that's all. this
[00:21:26] technological utopia, this post-human future is not just
[00:21:30] around the corner, of course, since the prophets of AI are
[00:21:33] looking several millenia into the future and beyond, but they
[00:21:37] believe that this history is so beautiful that it justifies any
[00:21:41] sacrifice. so the industry's big
[00:21:45] bosses, self-proclaimed geniuses quietly proclaim
[00:21:48] themselves creators of a paradise to which we are not
[00:21:52] invited.
[00:21:58] One way to think about long-termism is
[00:22:02] that it is arguably one the most
[00:22:05] influential ideologies in the world today that most people
[00:22:09] haven't heard about. It is, it reflects
[00:22:11] a elitist vision the future.
[00:22:15] The push to realize this future is deeply
[00:22:19] anti-democratic. it is influencing the actions and the decisions that
[00:22:22] people are making uh in Silicon Valley, and those decisions in
[00:22:26] turn are shaping the world that not
[00:22:30] just we live in, but our children and probably our
[00:22:34] grandchildren are are living in. So that would be my pitch
[00:22:37] for why understanding this topic is so very
[00:22:40] important.
[00:23:09] So the election of Donald Trump was a real boon for the tech sector. What we
[00:23:13] saw was Elon Mus as his unofficial running mate, someone
[00:23:17] who invested millions of dollars.
[00:23:20] in the election campaign and
[00:23:22] we can really expect that the tech sector is going to benefit
[00:23:26] immensely um from this new administration,
[00:23:30] so my name is James Mold, I'm a reader in management at the University of Essecs and
[00:23:34] I've done field workork on data
[00:23:36] workers.
[00:23:47] I don't think we've ever seen a single company. or collection of
[00:23:50] companies have quite as much power, quite as much money and
[00:23:54] influence as some the leading tech companies that we see
[00:23:58] today.
[00:24:09] are there ways we could do this better? we we can very
[00:24:12] easily, and the tech companies have have more than enough
[00:24:15] resources to pay their workers properly, they choose not to, and they think...
[00:24:20] that they can get away with it, because people will not be knowledgeable enough
[00:24:24] to understand what they're doing and what's actually going
[00:24:26] on.
[00:24:34] when when we think about the human cost, um, and ask ourselves, look,
[00:24:38] is this small amount of suffering by these workers worth,
[00:24:41] i don't, the greater good
[00:24:43] that might come to humanity, mean, think
[00:24:47] i would ask the workers themselves, yeah.
[00:25:06] Yeah, sometimes I i think the world is
[00:25:08] unfair, those who work hard the
[00:25:12] most, they are the
[00:25:14] the the nest, so there's nothing you can
[00:25:18] do about it.
[00:25:23] You just have to keep on working, you just
[00:25:27] have to wake up everyday and work and that's
[00:25:30] it.
[00:25:34] It requires lot of
[00:25:36] energy
[00:25:38] and hard work
[00:25:42] and sacrifices.
[00:25:46] So it doesn't come magically. Yeah.
[00:25:53] Daisy,
[00:25:58] after this astonishing journey behind the scenes of artificial
[00:26:01] intelligence, Let's return to what the great voices of this
[00:26:05] industry were proclaiming at the start the film and do a
[00:26:08] test. Let's see if their word still resonate the
[00:26:12] same way. It's sort of like we've just discovered new
[00:26:16] continent with hundred billion people on it and they're
[00:26:19] willing to work for free for us. Not trivial, it
[00:26:23] has the potential of civilizational destruction.
[00:26:27] There's movies like Terminator, but it wouldn't quite happen like Terminator. Um, because
[00:26:31] the the intelligence. be in the data centers right uh, the robot's just the
[00:26:35] endefactor, some robots will eat some jobs and some
[00:26:38] robots will kill humans, but when you look at the trend as a whole, I think it's going to be
[00:26:42] incredibly positive for
[00:26:44] humanity,
[00:26:53] incredibly positive for humanity,
[00:26:57] really, we're promised a future as artificial
[00:27:01] as these intelligences. a technological paradise built
[00:27:05] on suffering and
[00:27:06] exploitation,
[00:27:10] optimizing processes, optimizing dividends, optimizing
[00:27:14] resources, optimizing
[00:27:17] humans,
[00:27:22] after the workers the global south, after the minds
[00:27:26] duck, the rivers dried up, the atmosphere heated
[00:27:30] up, who do you think? will be the future victims in
[00:27:34] the belly of
[00:27:34] AI.
[00:28:04] A journey across a dynamic
[00:28:06] continent: Africans, we want
[00:28:10] to be prosperous, don't think about clans, don't think about tribes, think about
[00:28:14] countries. We explore Africa
[00:28:18] beyond assumptions, discover diverse
[00:28:21] perspectives,
[00:28:25] witness captivating stories, all
[00:28:29] to understand Africa better and why it's
[00:28:32] matters Africa matters on
[00:28:36] TRT
[00:28:36] World, but why is
[00:28:40] it Africana only? I'm telling you today,
[00:28:44] they are going to
[00:28:45] live,
[00:28:51] we got that flag down our throats all
[00:28:55] the time, you're not allowed to talk, oh no, that you
[00:28:59] oh, that's tabu. as
[00:29:02] well,
[00:29:07] it's supposed to be safety device, breathe in, breathe out and avoid the
[00:29:11] fumes around you, they knew what day they would come
[00:29:15] die,
[00:29:19] if Europe does not soon wake up, you will face fear every
[00:29:23] day, is NATO
[00:29:27] a competitor or a threat? NATO is a threat to
[00:29:31] Russia.
[00:29:36] racism towards gypsies and travellers is the last accepted former
[00:29:40] racism in this
[00:29:41] country. We
[00:29:45] were here yesterday, we're here today and we'll be here
[00:29:48] tomorrow. Beyond borders on TRT
[00:29:52] World.
[00:30:10] Sandy arabia vous a firm response after hoothy missile and drone
[00:30:14] attacks injured 13 civilians. Hello there,
[00:30:17] warm welcome to TRT World's coverage live from Istanbul with me Neil
[00:30:21] Harvey. Also, this hour, Iran's revolutionary guard says an oil
[00:30:25] tanker has exploded and caught fire after hitting mines while sailing
[00:30:29] through the straight of Hormus. Ukraine's president. says his
[00:30:32] country is ready to de-escalate the war if Russia does the same,
[00:30:36] as President Trump says both sides have agreed to halt strikes on energy
[00:30:40] sites, and we'll see how Gas's only animal
[00:30:43] shelter is struggling to keep pets and strays alive under Israel's
[00:30:47] ongoing
[00:30:48] siege.