TRTWORLD — The Newsmakers
20260915 213000 UTC
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[00:00:06] The of anger is over an unresolved crisis in the country's
[00:00:09] livestock sector over restrictions on animal
[00:00:13] exports. Politicians should not longer be allowed
[00:00:16] to
[00:00:17] of pass, we want to block the traffic to make them come and
[00:00:20] of talk to us. In just two years, Romania has gone
[00:00:24] from being the European Union's largest exporter
[00:00:27] of live sheep to facing a complete. ban on exports to
[00:00:31] both
[00:00:32] of EU in member states and non EU markets. It comes
[00:00:35] after virus
[00:00:39] of of had been circulated undetected in Romania's livestock and
[00:00:41] in sufficient guarantees for disease control were not
[00:00:44] provided. That's when the culling
[00:00:46] began. Number one, stop killing
[00:00:50] of animals. They apply tests on six or seven sheep and then they kill
[00:00:54] thousands. Number two, reopen the
[00:00:57] a exports. This is very important. This government
[00:00:59] in should go.
[00:01:07] It's all taking its toll, while Romania is in discussions with the
[00:01:11] European commission to find a workable solution to allow
[00:01:15] exports to resume as soon as possible, but every day
[00:01:19] that goes by is another financial
[00:01:21] of hit to farmers. We have very high
[00:01:25] expenses for taking care of animals. Winter is coming,
[00:01:29] of they need corn. and hey, we can't sell anymore, how do we
[00:01:33] get earn money for living? we can no longer sell, it
[00:01:37] is very difficult, there is terrible drought, and we are feeding now the
[00:01:40] animals with the food that we should have been
[00:01:43] of saving over the winter. it's a disaster, there is severe
[00:01:47] drought
[00:01:47] a and we don't have
[00:01:48] enough food for
[00:01:49] the animals. things are going from bad to worse,
[00:01:53] this summer, the agricultural
[00:01:55] of sector faced huge losses from severe and prolonged drought
[00:01:59] due to record break.
[00:02:00] of heat waves, the band should be lifted by
[00:02:03] 2027, but farmers worry by then
[00:02:06] business will be driven to the
[00:02:08] of brink of bankrupcy. shout out to Edward Stashley,
[00:02:11] TRT
[00:02:12] World.
[00:02:16] that is it from myself and the news team here in London, our website of course has
[00:02:20] details on all of our top stories, that's
[00:02:23] TRTworld.com, or simply tune in to our later news
[00:02:26] programs, but do stay with us here on TRT World, round table's coming.
[00:02:52] the EU is pumping billions into maritime defense to counter
[00:02:55] increased threats to its security, but will it be
[00:02:59] enough? to protect Europe's
[00:03:01] cease.
[00:03:07] of
[00:03:09] of
[00:03:17] Hello and welcome to round table. I'm Enta
[00:03:19] of Brady. of Now
[00:03:19] in securing Europe's vast waters is becoming an urgent priority for the
[00:03:23] European Union and NATO as tensions with Russia
[00:03:26] escalate. The world's oceans hold complex system. of
[00:03:30] of of of critical infrastructure from subsea data cables to energy pipelines
[00:03:34] and global trade roots, all of which makes
[00:03:37] of them highly vulnerable to hybrid attacks and
[00:03:40] sabotage.
[00:03:44] non UK marine commando sees a Russian shadow fleet oil
[00:03:47] tanker. Another is intercepted in
[00:03:51] of Belgium. sailing under false flags, such vessels are suspected of
[00:03:55] smuggling oil and secretly mapping under-sea
[00:03:58] infrastructure. and incidents are becoming
[00:04:01] of more frequent. Last week, NATO allies foiled a
[00:04:05] Russian submarine plot
[00:04:07] of to damage undersea cables. The EU and
[00:04:11] NATO are warning of increased hybrid
[00:04:14] of attacks from
[00:04:15] of Russia. Europeans are faced with the hard
[00:04:18] of truth that this is the new normal.
[00:04:22] We must treat our everyday
[00:04:24] of infrastructure as frontline targets and protect them
[00:04:28] in accordingly. Allies are. united in their commitment
[00:04:31] each other, to our collective defense, and we are
[00:04:35] clear eyed
[00:04:37] of of of about how
[00:04:38] of important is that we work together, including with the European
[00:04:42] Union
[00:04:42] of to ensure we
[00:04:44] of have what we need to address the threats we
[00:04:47] face. 90% of Europe's trade, energy
[00:04:51] a and digital data moves through its seas, to protect them from
[00:04:55] above and below water, the EU has spent $130
[00:04:59] billion dollars. on maritime
[00:05:01] of defense over the past
[00:05:03] of decade. France, Germany, Italy and Spain lead the way, building new
[00:05:07] ships, submarines and autonomous underwater
[00:05:10] drones. More will be invested. as part of Brussels
[00:05:13] Readiness 2030, the EU's $200 billion dollar
[00:05:17] plan to become more self-sufficient and less reliant on the United
[00:05:21] States.
[00:05:25] The war in Ukraine has fundamentally changed European defense
[00:05:29] strategy, and while drones fill the skies
[00:05:33] there, an unseen battle is developing underwater which could
[00:05:37] damage, disrupt and even take down Europe's vital
[00:05:41] infrastructure. Well let's meet our guests from
[00:05:44] Dublin, we have the retired vice admiral Mark Melet. He's former
[00:05:48] chief of staff the Irish Defense Forces and former head the
[00:05:52] Navy. Mark is also author. From Brussels we have
[00:05:55] Jean-François Bellanger, he is assistant professor at the Institute for
[00:05:59] Military Operations, that's at the Royal Danish Defense College in
[00:06:03] Copenhagen, and I'm delighted to say here with me in the studio is Sean
[00:06:07] Bell. Sean is a military analyst and retired Air Vice
[00:06:10] Marshall. You're all very welcome. roundtable. Sean, you first of all,
[00:06:14] where are the threats coming from then? Yeah, I mean, one thing to
[00:06:18] remember is that we've got some maritime experts here, but the vast majority of global
[00:06:22] trade moves via the oceans and therefore you need to be able to protect
[00:06:25] that. The main threats are the critical national infrastructure. We've got lots of
[00:06:29] cables and pipelines underneath the ocean. We've also got GPS that can
[00:06:33] be jammed from the ocean as well, and we're also seeing certain the UK,
[00:06:37] lot of Russian uh oil tankers, the sanction fleets are making their way
[00:06:41] through, and therefore... you need to have capability against them
[00:06:44] critically, for the cold war, and I'm a cold war veteran, um,
[00:06:48] we used to be looking our main focus on his submarine warfare, we recognize that the
[00:06:52] subserfice threat was really dangerous, but over the years we've lost the
[00:06:56] ability to do that as credibly as we used to be able to, and threats like Russia
[00:07:00] and China, but most particularly, Russia has something like 50
[00:07:03] attack submarines available, we've got five, and most of
[00:07:07] those are actually not serviceable, they're all concurrently in being worked on, so
[00:07:11] we do have a... significant shortfall in our military capability in the maritime
[00:07:15] environment. Jean-François to you,
[00:07:18] I read an extraordinary statistic this week, 90% of
[00:07:22] Europe's trade goes via the sea. We are hugely,
[00:07:26] hugely dependent on our waters. Are we doing enough to protect
[00:07:29] them? I will, I will give the the wishy washy answer
[00:07:33] of yes and no. Um, I think the investment that we're seeing at the
[00:07:37] moment are a good uh,
[00:07:40] that there are good steps. what i'm a little bit unclear
[00:07:44] about and i think it's it's touching on on some points
[00:07:47] that that we're having here is that the choices that we're making at the
[00:07:50] moment to defend and and to be to be
[00:07:53] clear um my my day today is to look mostly at the
[00:07:57] north sea and the baltics um but when you look
[00:08:01] at these two environments the way the way the geography
[00:08:05] and and the sea works um frigates are
[00:08:09] not necessarily the most
[00:08:13] uh well prepared platform to defend for example
[00:08:16] the the Baltics uh, but I'm yet to see and you see it peace meal
[00:08:20] lefts and right, left and right, um, but I think especially in
[00:08:24] the EU, um, I'm yet to see
[00:08:28] very strong argument being made
[00:08:31] for uncrued vehicle maritime, especially,
[00:08:35] um, that could that could either be fielded in conjunction with
[00:08:39] frigate and submarine for example, uh, or also, as part the
[00:08:43] main strategy uh moving forward. Mark,
[00:08:47] to you, what's your assessment of how secure our European
[00:08:51] seas are? in some ways i think
[00:08:55] it's timeing the other two speakers points, it's like as
[00:08:59] if the ocean senook up us and we just
[00:09:03] realizing how much of our infrastructure is ocean
[00:09:06] based, our communications cables our energy
[00:09:09] interconnectors, our sea lines communications. in terms of
[00:09:13] trade, they're all converging on the oceans and I've often said that
[00:09:17] state security is inextricably linked with economic
[00:09:20] security, which is inextrictly linked with energy security, and
[00:09:24] our oceans are a key component of that, so I'm
[00:09:28] concerned that the architecture in terms of law the sea convention
[00:09:32] from 1982 and its subsequent amendments is no longer
[00:09:36] fit for purpose in the context of what we see today. Europe in
[00:09:39] particular is engaged a full-scale hybrid war. "and much of that
[00:09:43] is centered on the ocean, and just to tie into your last speaker
[00:09:47] there, we need a lot more situational awareness in the context
[00:09:50] the complexity of activities that are at sea,
[00:09:53] so we are quite vulnerable. Sean, to you,
[00:09:57] Europe is spending money on defense like never before, or not in living
[00:10:01] memory anyway, is enough of it going to
[00:10:04] see? I think a lot of it's down to priority, priorities,
[00:10:08] I've been off to Ukraine fairly regularly, and you go through Poland and they..."
[00:10:12] feel the heat the Russian invasion far more than
[00:10:16] we ever do over here through the lens of history, but also because obviously it's
[00:10:20] right on their border, and therefore they're investing heavily, but in land forces,
[00:10:24] in tanks and... there and they're less worried about the maritime
[00:10:28] environment, we traditionally in the UK have been a maritime nation, we've
[00:10:32] been a maritime power, so whilst lot of Europe tends to look east, we
[00:10:35] really need to be looking west and north, and therefore it feels
[00:10:39] like nationally and with some of our Nordic partners, France and
[00:10:43] Spain and Italy, all of which you have so key maritime
[00:10:46] borders, but actually that's where it's a different priority,
[00:10:50] and I do think you can't just sort of say NATO or Europe here, you have
[00:10:54] to have subset. of where our responsibility lies, because we're
[00:10:58] seeing in the UK when it's the antar and just off our shores where it's the Russian
[00:11:02] submarines and their test submarines lautering over under sea
[00:11:05] cables, whether it's aircraft coming over, we're feeling that heat a
[00:11:09] lot more than I would say Poland does
[00:11:11] for example. Jean Francis, is there an argument for greater
[00:11:14] integration then amongst European countries, European Union states in particular
[00:11:18] when it comes to maritime and coastal
[00:11:21] defense, well it it's a...
[00:11:25] interesting question to me because disintegration is already done and it's done through
[00:11:29] NATO uh and I understand that the European Union at the
[00:11:32] moment is interested to um
[00:11:36] look at alternative uh when it comes to um
[00:11:40] to it security especially maritime security thank you
[00:11:43] Mark you're in Ireland I'm Irish we are a small
[00:11:47] country we have a small navy we are neutral
[00:11:50] lot of observers see us as like achilles heel in west
[00:11:55] in Europe when it comes to sea defense, what do you say to that
[00:11:58] accusation? well, I spent most of my time in the
[00:12:02] Navy, I spent for 45 years and I I retired as
[00:12:06] chief of defense or chief of staff the defense forces, I've always made
[00:12:10] point, Ireland did not pay sufficient attention to the maritime,
[00:12:14] but that's that's changing now, we've launched our maritime security
[00:12:17] strategy, we're investing in air surveillance, we're investing in
[00:12:21] subsurface surveillance, but the bigger question is in...
[00:12:25] terms the security strategy, we need to move towards an integrated approach,
[00:12:28] and I think your last speaker raised point with regards to the NATO and
[00:12:32] the European Union, I see this even bigger than that, I think the
[00:12:36] reality is that we now need military and civilian integration,
[00:12:40] navy and coast guard, public and private, national and
[00:12:43] European, physical and cyber, so that we're actually stitching together all
[00:12:47] the domains, land in terms of surveillance raiders, land based
[00:12:50] raiders, maritime in terms of surface assets, subsurface
[00:12:54] assets, and space in terms of using synthetic aperture
[00:12:58] radar, evolving technologies, I worked with a company here in Ireland called
[00:13:01] Ubotica, using AI in space and of course cyber, stitching
[00:13:05] cyber into the architecture, so that ultimately that we
[00:13:09] have what we're increasingly talking about now, a whole of society
[00:13:12] approach to defense, security, control and enforcement in
[00:13:16] the maritime domain. Ireland has quite a large mountain
[00:13:20] to climb in terms of meeting its national responsibilities and
[00:13:24] equally its responsibilities to its neighbors and but it's in
[00:13:28] moving in the right direction, the challenge is you will something
[00:13:31] happen in the meantime, and we've seen the activity the
[00:13:34] antar, in fact it doesn't even have to be a yantar, it can be decommissioned
[00:13:38] troller that has the capacity to do a hybrid impact that cuts
[00:13:42] cable. the issue is are we a position now to have the
[00:13:45] situational awareness, the domain awareness to actually
[00:13:49] act in time to decide and to act and to prevent.
[00:13:53] thank you, sean, ship that keeps getting mentioned, the yantar, just spell out for us what
[00:13:57] it is and and what we think it might have been doing around British
[00:14:00] waters. yeah, mean there's a lot
[00:14:02] of Russian vessels, well it's air land or maritime that do lots of reconnaissance,
[00:14:06] and whilst in itself it looks fairly innocent, but what it's actually doing is
[00:14:10] hovering up lots of data intelligence, but also more crucially working
[00:14:14] out where our under sea cables are, but also what reaction
[00:14:18] NATO might do, so simply by being there, we get used to it being
[00:14:22] there, simply by operating aircraft that key coming to... air space, it
[00:14:25] tests us, makes us a bit more complacent, but I think the problem is slightly bigger than
[00:14:29] that, because again you go back to the cold war, we were ready for war at
[00:14:33] that day, the last 35 years, wars of choice in
[00:14:37] our navy, we've commissioned two the biggest aircraft carriers we've ever seen in
[00:14:41] our time, phenomenally capable, but good for power projection, wars
[00:14:45] of choice, not for wars of national survival, and the problem is
[00:14:49] is that we had to be ready 24 and seven, if you're going to be ready
[00:14:52] 24 and seven, that's why we have four, nuclear submarines because we
[00:14:56] need one available at all times. you've only got two carriers, you've
[00:15:00] probably got
[00:15:01] long periods of time when one them is never going to be available. that's just not
[00:15:04] acceptable. if you're going to have a carrier capability, you got to be all in and
[00:15:08] do it 24 and se or have a shift system where the countries in
[00:15:12] NATO take over. so i think we're recovering from 35 years
[00:15:15] of understandable peace dividend. now is a wake cup call to
[00:15:19] work out that actually other nations, particularly Russia, particularly
[00:15:23] submarines have a... huge advantage over Europe, we need to get
[00:15:27] back into the really tricky world of anti-submarine warfare, whether it's
[00:15:31] air, land or maritime, to make sure that we're um detering
[00:15:35] that Russian aggression, and Sean, just why we have you here, "I know you're an Air Vice Marshall,
[00:15:39] but give me your assessment the UK Royal Navy, because lot of people feel
[00:15:43] that it has kind of year-on-year not being resourced to what it
[00:15:46] was. Yeah, I mean, I spent lot of time, I spent more time at float than many
[00:15:50] of my naval contemporaries, I would probably b to my guest here, but I
[00:15:54] spent many, many months on board aircraft carriers. One the things that Navy
[00:15:58] is absolutely outstanding professional, we've got some amazing people there,
[00:16:02] but because of this focus on the carriers, we've had to take
[00:16:06] risk a whole number."
[00:16:07] of other areas and now because the operational tempo, political
[00:16:11] pressure, we've got the people, there's a thousand fewer people in their all navy, it needs to
[00:16:15] be, those that are in there are working incredibly hard, moral is therefore difficult to
[00:16:19] maintain, and I think the first sealord finds himself an invidious position
[00:16:23] that from maritime very proud nation that's been defined by its
[00:16:27] maritime prowess, we find ourselves a bit of a low-eb at the moment,
[00:16:31] I think the future is going to be very positive, but my goodness we've got a bit of a
[00:16:34] mountain to climb. Thanks, Sean, Jean-François. talk to me
[00:16:38] about the the threat level then as you see it, is it all
[00:16:42] Russia or are there other actors at play that Europe needs
[00:16:46] to be worried about? I
[00:16:49] think um, one thing, I haven't spent any
[00:16:53] time on ship, because compared to my two panelists, uh, my initial plan
[00:16:57] was to become navy officer, and I realized that I have sea
[00:17:00] sickness, so that didn't pan
[00:17:11] yes, we could probably look for, and and uh, Sean,
[00:17:15] discuss I uh, believe, the China will be will be issue, but I
[00:17:18] think at the moment
[00:17:19] that the threat is mostly uh Russian when it comes to
[00:17:23] when it comes to Europe, we had report that NATO intercepted Russian operation
[00:17:27] near Swallbard uh, around the undersea cables that were
[00:17:31] here, uh, we've seen what the Shadow Fleet has been doing in
[00:17:35] in the
[00:17:36] in in recent years or..." have commercial vessel raking uh that we
[00:17:40] can sometimes attribute to Russia, sometime not, um, we've been
[00:17:44] raking their anchors at the bottom the the Baltic Sea for example, the cut
[00:17:47] cables there, um, so
[00:17:50] it it
[00:17:50] it is where it's located, the threat is also now, what we,
[00:17:54] taking NATO parliance a bit more multi domain right, like it's not strictly the
[00:17:58] Russian threat will take a maritime aspect, but that
[00:18:01] maritime aspect is going to be supported by hybrid
[00:18:05] effort, it's going to be supported by cyber
[00:18:09] space and effort and so on, and I
[00:18:12] think on that front, this is what NATO is moving to with its new war
[00:18:16] fighting concept of multi-domain operation, but to to to
[00:18:20] return very briefly to your question, no, for Europe, and and I mean the
[00:18:24] Danish assessment I think remain um remain
[00:18:27] sound, although when they it came out that Russia might
[00:18:31] initiate conflict either with Baltic border states or the
[00:18:35] browder of NATO within two and five years. "I think it's important
[00:18:39] to remember that this assessment came out year ago, so we're no longer
[00:18:43] two to five or one to four, so in very
[00:18:47] short, yes, Russia, for the moment, for the Europeans
[00:18:50] is the is the threat. Thank you, Mark,
[00:18:54] we've seen Russian vessels loitering off the coast of Ireland
[00:18:58] repeatedly, what were they up to, and
[00:19:01] how did the Irish government respond? Yeah, well, I
[00:19:05] think the Irish government has in recent years." strengthened its bilateral with
[00:19:09] the UK, it's bilateral with its nearest EU neighbor France, and
[00:19:13] it is actually greater, it's given greater support to, I
[00:19:16] suppose the multilateral framework. Ireland is
[00:19:20] militarily aligned, but that does not mean that it doesn't engage in
[00:19:24] information sharing, and we are currently have the present
[00:19:28] presidency the EU Council, so there is lot of
[00:19:31] bilateral, multilateral support in ensuring the architecture is
[00:19:35] right, that said, we are... concerned with regards the
[00:19:38] activities the Russian Federation, the Shan has mentioned the Yantar.
[00:19:42] Yanntar is a formidable vessel, while it may look like a civilian vessel,
[00:19:46] actually it's manned by Russian naval personnel, it's on the state
[00:19:50] register, so technically speaking under the law the sea convention is a
[00:19:53] warship, and you have to be careful in terms of how you operate
[00:19:57] around the vessel that has that status. Russian vessels
[00:20:01] in terms their shadow fleet have been increased in the
[00:20:04] jurisdiction around the Irish coast. have been evading sanctions
[00:20:08] and there is a real question over the seawordiness these
[00:20:12] vessels, the standards and certification the watchkeepers on these
[00:20:16] vessels, and there is a questioned in back to the
[00:20:19] integrity the international institutions, the law the sea
[00:20:22] convention to deal with vessels that are actually actively
[00:20:26] avoiding sanctions and at the same time playing
[00:20:30] fast and loose with international law. thank you mark, seaw, talk to me
[00:20:34] about this northern navy's initiative, so the UK
[00:20:37] training
[00:20:38] and and aligning itself closer with some the Nordic and Scandinavian countries, Norway
[00:20:42] in particular, seems to be lot about integrating systems
[00:20:46] and and sharing platforms so that if they were needed to
[00:20:50] together they would all be singing off the same song sheet, yeah, part
[00:20:54] of that is the Iceland Greenland gap,
[00:20:58] um, largely ignored, I think, for many, many years, probably
[00:21:01] decades, but it's a key geographic, it's a natural feature, where
[00:21:05] if Russian submarines want to make their way out from the Russian coastline
[00:21:09] into the Atlantic, then you've got to make your way through that,
[00:21:13] and there's a strategy based on, I have to look at my nose,
[00:21:16] Jan Bayden, it's right in the middle, and there's been a number of exercises being done.
[00:21:20] recently where the royal navy and some of its partner
[00:21:23] nations are reinforcing that island, it's strategically important for the
[00:21:27] gap, they're also making sure they can operate together, and of course it's worth remembering
[00:21:31] that anything when you as soon as you get into the arctic the weather becomes a bit more
[00:21:34] tricky and i wouldn't underestimate, it's easy to say well it's just a
[00:21:38] ship, but actually you've got to operate on the decks these ships, you got to operate
[00:21:41] aircraft, you got to operate helicopters and the like, and when it gets very cold,
[00:21:45] when the
[00:21:46] the sea gets very rough as well out there, which you can be in
[00:21:48] the winter, you need to train in that... environment and as um John said,
[00:21:52] I, I, I spent lot of time at sea, but I used to get seasick, it takes about three or four
[00:21:56] days before you get your sea legs, and it was thoroughly miserable for that
[00:22:00] time, but once you've got your sea legs and you're used to the operation, that's
[00:22:04] the huge value of training, and that's the one thing the Royal Navy is pushing hard to
[00:22:07] do with lots of its northern European allies at the moment, everyone thinks the
[00:22:11] Arctic is a big vast icy expanse, I'm guessing there is
[00:22:15] lot of submarine activity up there, but it's the way out for lot the Russian
[00:22:19] sub from their ports to get down to the Atlantic, I mean with global warming, there's
[00:22:23] a lot of northern roots now that are opening up, I saw in the news only earlier today, there's
[00:22:27] a Chinese vessel that's made its way up, and it saves a lot of time rather
[00:22:31] than going the southern route down through the sewis canal, you can go across the top, it
[00:22:35] saves a huge amount of time and therefore a huge amount of money, that'l become a strategically
[00:22:39] important route, and therefore we need to protect it and make sure it doesn't get closed
[00:22:43] down, thank you, Jean Francis, we've heard lot of talk about this Russian
[00:22:47] shadow fleet zipping through European. waters
[00:22:50] the channel between England and France in particular, how concerning
[00:22:54] is that then from a European perspective that they seem to be able to do what
[00:22:58] they want. well, what what is concerning is
[00:23:02] that there seems to be lack of interest
[00:23:04] in full-on engagement with the shadow fleet.
[00:23:08] mean, we've been talking about, we've been talking about this for,
[00:23:11] i don't know how many years, we know what they've been able to, that
[00:23:15] that that they've been able to help Russia uh go around sanctions and so on
[00:23:19] around the war.. so what worries me is, I mean,
[00:23:22] their movement and pattern are now well tracked and well
[00:23:26] situated, what is a little bit concerning to me is that
[00:23:30] despite knowing this, there's not an over
[00:23:34] over effort to actually um countd them, now I
[00:23:37] understand why, because we don't want to
[00:23:40] engage a like the Russians have threatens that an engagement there would also mean like an
[00:23:44] engagement with them, the they've linked it few times
[00:23:46] to the war in Ukraine and so on. Mark, to you, I see you have new book
[00:23:50] out, blue heart, war, climate, and the battle for the ocean that
[00:23:54] keeps us alive. how concerned are you about the kind the actual
[00:23:57] physical state of our seas? well, I
[00:24:01] am concerned, and we we tend to talk at the about the ocean as a battle space,
[00:24:05] but the ocean itself is part the critical infrastructure that
[00:24:09] is keeping us alive and that we should be trying to
[00:24:12] protect. the very reason we're having this conversation is the
[00:24:16] fact that the ocean absorb 90% the excess heat and...
[00:24:20] 30% the excess carbon we emit, the ocean is obviously
[00:24:23] critical in terms of our security architecture, in terms of our
[00:24:27] energy, interconnectors, 80% of our
[00:24:31] LNG on this island comes via interconnectors at sea, and
[00:24:35] increasingly we can see the overwhelming dependency we
[00:24:39] have in terms of our tech economies on fiber optic
[00:24:43] cables, which are at the heart of Russian Federation in
[00:24:47] particular hybrid activities monitoring these cables. and in places
[00:24:50] interfering these cables, so I am concerned that we
[00:24:54] need to take a more holistic view in terms the oceans, I'm delighted to
[00:24:58] see that Europe is moving with an oceans act, and I think that that should be a
[00:25:02] chapo for other states in the European region who to have
[00:25:06] similar legislation so we can have that integrated
[00:25:09] approach to protecting this critical infrastructure that actually is
[00:25:13] keeping regulating our climate and as we move forward
[00:25:17] in initiatives such as 30% of our seas protected by
[00:25:21] 2030 that we actually begin to see the importance of
[00:25:24] biodiversity in our ocean spaces, which receives currently very little
[00:25:28] protection, biodiversity in the ocean is as valuable as
[00:25:31] rainforest on land, and yet we're we're not at the
[00:25:35] moment providing that that protection towards this vast
[00:25:39] amount of jurisdiction where there is critical amount of
[00:25:42] biodiversity currently being damaged daily. thank you, Mark. could
[00:25:46] i just pick up point that Mark made there, which i think we we miss
[00:25:50] slightly is it's all having a kit and equipment and ships and tanks and
[00:25:54] submarines, but actually unless you have political resolve, it
[00:25:57] becomes worthless, it's not a deterrent without having determination and
[00:26:01] resolve, and I think... what we're seeing exactly as the panelists have said is that
[00:26:05] Russia is just pushing the edges all the time, we're seeing them do it, but we're
[00:26:08] reluctant to do anything about it, and the danger is that emboldens president
[00:26:12] Putin, and I always refer back to the example when two Russian jets flew
[00:26:16] out of Syria towards Turkey, Turkey said, turn back, one them turned back, the
[00:26:20] other Russian jet continued, two F-16s from Turkey shot it
[00:26:24] down, President Putin went apoplectic, never again
[00:26:27] did Russian aircraft go into Turkish airspace, you have to be
[00:26:31] robust, I think... has to find a way, it's not going to precipitate
[00:26:35] a war, but unless we're more robust in the maritime domain, we are keep going to
[00:26:39] get pressurized. i think it's a fantastic point, and just to push this just a little
[00:26:43] bit further, we're a situation now in Europe where we might see
[00:26:46] government um that may decide then to to go a bit closer
[00:26:50] to um to Russia, we're seeing the uh
[00:26:54] everybody talks about the recent uh AFD election in Germany,
[00:26:58] but if this propagates through the country then we're going to end up
[00:27:02] a... where we might have very important state in
[00:27:05] Europe who might decide to cut back actions to
[00:27:09] counter uh Russia, the same looking at the French elections for
[00:27:13] example, and I agree, political will is the be
[00:27:17] is the number one variable that you need in order to be able to
[00:27:21] to do these things, and I'm I'm a bit concerned that in the next two to
[00:27:24] three, three, let's say two to five years um that political will is
[00:27:28] going to erold more than what it is now, as we we might be
[00:27:32] witnessing shift to governments that are more sympathetic
[00:27:35] to um uh to the Russians. Thank you. Sean, just
[00:27:39] one last point to you, with all these Russian vessels floating around, do you worry
[00:27:43] that it will be incident at sea that leads to something far, far
[00:27:47] bigger? No, is the short answer.
[00:27:50] I mean, having operate off her majesty's then her majesty's carriers, we had
[00:27:54] lots of incidents to see, we lost aeroplanes, all sorts, you just push them off the edge the ship and
[00:27:58] nobody's there to witness it, um, you just count them out when you leave and you count them
[00:28:02] back in. when you come back and there's no journalists on the ground, there's very little filming
[00:28:05] going on, so you can actually there's denial and all sorts of things going on
[00:28:09] around it. I do worry that we're not taking the sub-surface
[00:28:13] threat properly, because it's not just uh Russia's huge fleets
[00:28:17] or the tax submarines and nuclear submarines, it's also I think they've got 10
[00:28:20] experimental submarines that go to obscene depths that do all sorts of
[00:28:24] clever things on the seabed. Why are they doing that? They're all doing
[00:28:28] that because there's a macchievellian agenda going on here and we are going to get.
[00:28:32] surprised if we're not prepared, sean belle, thank you, Jean-François, and
[00:28:36] Mark in Ireland as well, thank you all, remember you can see more
[00:28:40] discussion and debate on our YouTube channel, search for roundtable TRT World,
[00:28:44] but for now from me and Brady and all the team here, goodbye and thank you for
[00:28:47] watching,
[00:28:56] new chapter in Afghanistan, insurrection and even an attempt in coup are
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[00:30:34] program, at least six Palestinians are killed in
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[00:30:40] fire, and US senator Bernie
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