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20260806 013000 UTC
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[00:00:00] which ought to have french legionaire and these are
[00:00:03] territories that ought to be directed from Paris.
[00:00:07] that is how french people think, that is how
[00:00:10] french
[00:00:12] of administrators think it is sad thing. the beauty
[00:00:15] is:
[00:00:40] of
[00:00:40] of
[00:00:51] of
[00:00:56] in
[00:01:05] of
[00:01:17] of
[00:01:37] of
[00:01:48] of
[00:02:53] her graduation everything is just you looking beautiful but i will see
[00:02:57] use the same voice to beg lagos states and to park
[00:03:00] dos me on the marina okay, there is dosm everywhere,
[00:03:04] but
[00:03:05] you see that one on the marina, on the island, the
[00:03:08] centers of CBD that I used to be proud of as young girl
[00:03:12] growing up and writing my exams there, it's breaking my
[00:03:15] of heart, i still saw them piled in front of just before you get to FCMB,
[00:03:19] that top building is there, does be yeah, you go
[00:03:22] forward is there, all of those corporate entities, they two they
[00:03:27] not help theirself, they
[00:05:14] Welcome back and thank you for staying with us. The debate
[00:05:17] over the role of religious leaders in politics has resurfaced
[00:05:21] following the recent cutsea visit by members the Catholic Bishop's
[00:05:25] conference of Nigeria to President Bolatinu at
[00:05:29] the State House. While the meeting was aimed at discussing issues
[00:05:33] affecting the nation, comments made by cardinal John
[00:05:36] Onekon to the media afterwards reportedly sparked
[00:05:39] criticism from the presidency. It igniting
[00:05:43] conversations about the extent to which clerics should engage in
[00:05:46] political matters, should religious leaders speak publicly
[00:05:50] on governance and hold those in power accountable, or should they remain
[00:05:54] above the political fray to preserve their neutrality and moral
[00:05:57] authority? can faith leaders engage political office
[00:06:01] holders without being perceived as partisan, and where should the
[00:06:05] line be drawn between offering moral guidance and participating
[00:06:09] in political discourse? to help us unpack these important. Questions
[00:06:13] were joined by Bishop Steven Adebite, his
[00:06:16] executive secretary the Nigerian Christian Pilgrim Commission.
[00:06:20] He shares his perspective on the relationship between faith,
[00:06:24] leadership, governance, and the responsibility of clerics in
[00:06:27] shaping the national discourse. Of course, would, as
[00:06:31] always, would like our viewers to join the conversation by calling us on
[00:06:35] 090-241-6340. And
[00:06:39] you can join us live on DSTV on channel 164, Twitter. at tvc
[00:06:43] connects using the hashtag #yourviewtvc and we're
[00:06:46] streaming live on
[00:06:57] right into it. uh, what would you make the controversies
[00:07:01] that have trilled the um catholic bishops conference of
[00:07:05] Nigeria's visit to the president and also the reactions that have
[00:07:08] followed afterwards? thank you very much.
[00:07:12] really
[00:07:13] it is unfortunate that such should happen, religious leader
[00:07:17] have the right to visit the presidency and mr president
[00:07:21] in particular and that will not be the first time, but i
[00:07:25] think the catholic bishops needs to exercise
[00:07:28] some restrain, because in the last 12
[00:07:32] months or there about that will be the second time the be visiting
[00:07:36] mr president and in christian association of nigeria we have
[00:07:40] five blocks and the
[00:07:43] Catholic blog, he just one, you
[00:07:46] have after the kali, you have the
[00:07:50] CCN, Christian Council of Nigeria, okay, Christian Council
[00:07:54] of Nigeria comprises the Methodist, the Anglican, the Baptist, the presbiterian,
[00:07:58] the lutheran, the first African church mission, the African
[00:08:01] Church, about 13 denominations, then you now have the th
[00:08:05] group that is called the CPFM,
[00:08:08] PFM, and these are the pentecostal, you can imagine the number.
[00:08:13] then you now have the OAIC, organization of
[00:08:16] instituted African churches, all the aladura churches you can think
[00:08:20] of, then finally you now have the Tecan
[00:08:23] equa, those are predominantly in the north, but you have equa
[00:08:27] also in the south, yeah, so when you have five blocks and
[00:08:30] one block always is seeking attention
[00:08:34] and want to be with Mr. President, and because the closeness of Mr.
[00:08:38] President to the catholic church, you know, Mr.
[00:08:41] President remain the only. presidents that attended the
[00:08:45] investiture the new pole, the current poll,
[00:08:48] and president was there and the pop appreciated him
[00:08:52] after was about three months ago I was in Rome and I
[00:08:56] delivered the message of Mr. President to the Pope and the Pope
[00:09:00] appreciated my coming and my visit and he gave
[00:09:02] audience, so and also where you look at the
[00:09:06] relationship between Mr. President and the retired bishop of
[00:09:10] Lagos Baba. who was
[00:09:14] 90 years old recently, I attended the service, represented the
[00:09:18] first lady, represented Mr. President, and also another minister represented
[00:09:22] Mr. President at that service, that Baba can walk into
[00:09:25] ashiwaju's house anyt, and that is the relationship
[00:09:29] develop over the years, because Mr. President is not religious bgot,
[00:09:33] though a Muslim, but very open to all
[00:09:36] faith, and he gave encouragement and support to all
[00:09:40] them from Chimy Memorial. so their visit is very
[00:09:44] good, but for anybody to now take the visit of
[00:09:47] mr. to mr president outside the
[00:09:50] villa and be making comment it after retirement at
[00:09:53] 82, it is unacceptable, because if
[00:09:57] body have visited mr president, that should be in confidence. okay
[00:10:00] sir, so the cardinal john anayekan's comments
[00:10:04] after the meeting repositly has started criticism, made
[00:10:08] headlines this morning from the presidency as well as reactions from.
[00:10:12] from
[00:10:13] you know northern groups and even the FCT minister, what in
[00:10:16] your view could have been handled differently to thank you very much, when
[00:10:20] you visit Mr. President, which is not the first time, you should
[00:10:24] keep... whatever you have discussed with him with him, and Mr.
[00:10:28] President responded to every point, one after the
[00:10:31] other, and that should have ended the visit, so for anybody to now
[00:10:35] take extract from that and be making comments about it, the following the
[00:10:39] less than 24 hours, it is not acceptable, and whatever
[00:10:42] comments baba uh has made
[00:10:46] is for his own alone, not for the church in Nigeria, no for Christian
[00:10:50] association of Nigeria, and even kindly faithful have started
[00:10:54] reacting. and saying it's unfair to say that
[00:10:58] ine chairman, members, commissioners are appointed by
[00:11:01] Mr. President, what does that mean? is that not the constitutional right
[00:11:05] the president to appoint such officers? does that make
[00:11:08] them not to do
[00:11:11] what is expected to do? if people have done it before and Mr.
[00:11:14] President his duty as the president of Nigeria, nobody
[00:11:18] should make such comment and to the extend of saying if
[00:11:22] people knows that the APC will win election people will not vote,
[00:11:26] how who are the people you are referring to,
[00:11:29] no sir, that that is unacceptable, okay sir, not even indically church, you
[00:11:33] cannot say that, because Mr. President have friends in the
[00:11:37] Romangelic church throughout the country, okay sir,
[00:11:41] next question, yeah, so with all these that has happened now, do you think is appropriate for religious
[00:11:45] leaders to maintain close relationship with those in power? oh, when
[00:11:49] you look at the scripture, the states and the
[00:11:52] church are being intertry. interconnected,
[00:11:55] interrelated and inseparable, and that is the reason
[00:11:59] when prophet Nathan went to the palace the king
[00:12:03] David, and he said to the king, somebody had
[00:12:06] 99 uh, rams, or
[00:12:10] sheep, and another one has one, and the one with 99 has a
[00:12:14] visitor, and he now collected the one that has one and slaughter for
[00:12:18] his visitor, and the king responded, whoever has done that,
[00:12:22] deserve death, and the man of God. was bord enough to
[00:12:25] tell him you are the one, that shows to you, if you don't have
[00:12:29] access to the king, how can you be in the palace? so the church and the
[00:12:33] state are together for a long time from the scripture, and that is
[00:12:37] what has been happening in, it was president obasanjo
[00:12:41] that started christian association of nigeria 50 years ago, luckily
[00:12:45] where
[00:12:47] in 2026, he started in 1976 and that brought
[00:12:51] the body of Christ together to have a voice, but over the years...
[00:12:55] "it has been politicized, even before now,
[00:12:59] in electing president for Christian association of Nigeria has turned
[00:13:03] to another thing, and let me say to you, the politics you have in
[00:13:07] the church is worse than the one in APC and PDP, because if you are
[00:13:11] in APC, everybody know you are a card carry member of
[00:13:14] APC, and you are PDP, they know you are in PDP, not the one
[00:13:18] they do after primary or before primary cross carpetting, we are not
[00:13:22] talking of those ones, but people belong to..." political party everybody
[00:13:26] knows, but in the church where you say praise the Lord, everybody
[00:13:30] respond, hallelujah, after the hallelujah, you better watch your
[00:13:33] back, another thing can happen any time, and that is the
[00:13:37] reason why we need to really know what we
[00:13:41] are doing, so the church has role in the society and
[00:13:44] also in the nation building, but the role
[00:13:48] must be critically examined, and we must
[00:13:51] not any time run the government of... the day
[00:13:55] down, the duty of any minister of
[00:13:59] God is to pray for the country, is to pray for the
[00:14:02] leaders, can you imagine what you have as national
[00:14:06] term in England, may God bless you, the queen,
[00:14:10] but presently is the king, and every religious
[00:14:14] leader, every bishop in cantarby, they know they have a
[00:14:17] duty to pray for King Charls, so why should religious
[00:14:21] leader now be the one causing trouble among people in?
[00:14:25] Nigeria, the one giving inflammatory statements and also f
[00:14:28] prophets begin to emerge now. All right
[00:14:31] sir, so I have a question sir, so um,
[00:14:35] over time we've seen some clerics come out to
[00:14:39] prophesize or declare or
[00:14:41] you know attributes some sudden person as winner
[00:14:45] for election and everything like that, do you think this is part their spiritual
[00:14:48] mandate or is this just unnecessarily you creating issues
[00:14:52] for the church? They only want attention. they want to attract
[00:14:56] crowd and traffic in their social media handles and
[00:15:00] they are failing in 2023, how many prophecy do you
[00:15:04] receive
[00:15:06] that that is not possible ashua you cannot win, this is the one that will win, this
[00:15:10] is the one that will win by the end the day, what you have
[00:15:14] to measure the call of a prophet is that whatever the
[00:15:18] prophesy must come to pass, but in this all these
[00:15:21] prophets you have in Nigeria today, who have gone to the... of
[00:15:25] professing between the winner of Manchester United and
[00:15:28] Arsenal, how can you take those ones serious? they've started a
[00:15:31] game, but by the time election is over in January, results are
[00:15:35] announced, there will be no true perfect. Nigeria, so the work
[00:15:39] of Mr. President will speak for him, and that is what people
[00:15:43] want, nobody says you should be in this one, be that one,
[00:15:47] but market your own candidates, don't discredit
[00:15:50] any other, so prophet see the are giving,
[00:15:54] we have 99% false prophets in Nigeria,
[00:15:58] only one or point f are real prophets
[00:16:02] and when you see prophet of God, you will know, because by their
[00:16:05] fruits we shall know there. is lot that you have said today,
[00:16:09] um, but I would like to given what, most of your
[00:16:13] responses, are you there for saying that um, clerics
[00:16:16] should not speak on governance or national issues, even if
[00:16:20] it puts them at odds with government? oh, why not? if
[00:16:24] you know me, if you look at my track record, you will know
[00:16:28] that i'm one the people that will say the truth and nothing but the truth.
[00:16:32] okay, two days ago, i was a meeting with mr. governor of lagos state
[00:16:36] and i said to him, "there are things we must do,
[00:16:39] and I gave example, I said, if you go to CMS today, the
[00:16:43] CMS that we are used to, it's messed up, and you
[00:16:47] have alcada coming against
[00:16:50] traffic at CMS, you must clear it,
[00:16:54] whether they are military or not, they have no rights to be riding
[00:16:58] ocada in those places, there are places you have mapped out that no
[00:17:01] alka should write here, and if they are doing it, it's a
[00:17:05] contravention to the law of Legocy." and that should be corrected and
[00:17:09] mr. mr. governor appreciated that and he said something to the people, do you
[00:17:12] know one thing i love about bishop, he will tell you the truth whether you
[00:17:16] like it or not, but in saying the truth we must
[00:17:20] not now cyc the truth because of our own
[00:17:24] selfish interests, people know where we
[00:17:27] stand, and you now be saying that so that people can be convinced you are
[00:17:31] delivering the message of God or you are being critical and not so
[00:17:34] given uh criticism,
[00:17:36] you know there are two... side of criticism, you have constructive criticism
[00:17:40] which will help government to perform, and you have destructive
[00:17:43] criticism that nobody will accept if you are not saying the obvious
[00:17:47] and that is what we will go against before
[00:17:50] now, during election and after election, and we have said
[00:17:54] it, we should not allow the church of God to be divided, but if
[00:17:58] people think they can come out and be saying reckless statements about
[00:18:01] mr. president, mr. governor, whatever, anybody that
[00:18:05] is in government, we will also... big, they are religious leaders, we are
[00:18:09] also religious leaders, sir, you seem to be, because I think criticism
[00:18:13] is a balance thing, that's right, depends on how it comes out, but you
[00:18:17] seem to have been speaking on the side the president lot more, are you a supporter
[00:18:21] the president, oh, I don't think
[00:18:24] anybody does not know that, Mr. President appointed me
[00:18:28] to be in charge of programmage, and I've done that the last three
[00:18:31] years, and why do I believe in Mr. President,
[00:18:34] Mr. President started that is... religious bigger from lagos
[00:18:38] states 20 7 26 years
[00:18:42] ago and he happened to be the first
[00:18:46] person to establish pilgrimage and
[00:18:49] pilgrimage board where i served many years and
[00:18:53] after that the relationship he created in lagos
[00:18:56] state between the two faith mr president
[00:19:00] returned 13 schools to lagos states
[00:19:03] to religious leaders in lagos states the methodit
[00:19:07] high school, the methodist girls high school, the bobe college, baptist
[00:19:11] academy, the African grammar school, uh, St.
[00:19:14] Fimbers, and many other schools like that, and today,
[00:19:18] and I was one the people that received those schools, today I said to
[00:19:22] you, those school remain best schools in legos state, and that
[00:19:26] is what we believe in him, what he has done, and the plan he has for Legos
[00:19:30] State for 20 years, which is now extending more than 20 years,
[00:19:33] we said if somebody can do that in Lagos, he will do better at the nation.
[00:19:37] level and he has been president for three and some months
[00:19:41] years now, it's only a blind who does not know that is
[00:19:45] reformation, transformation in Nigeria, if you talk of
[00:19:48] education, telefone is there, people who do not have
[00:19:52] money can now go to university with loan, so
[00:19:56] but it would seem like you you can no longer speak truth
[00:19:59] to to power because there's no perfect person and therely no perfect
[00:20:02] president, are there nothing that you can criticize or is
[00:20:05] this, it's just
[00:20:07] that your... so loyalty to the president is it preventing you from you speaking truth
[00:20:11] to oh
[00:20:11] that is not correct okay and that is why you will see me if you hacks
[00:20:15] other government appointees
[00:20:16] what i said today is that number one mr president cannot
[00:20:20] be in all the places if he has appointed you
[00:20:24] you should do your work diligently and you must deliver and if there are
[00:20:27] things you are doing that is not correct you must be able to correct
[00:20:31] it and for instance in my own office i discovered
[00:20:35] the civil service the way they operate is not the way i believe they show
[00:20:39] operates, number one, lot of people, lot of civil
[00:20:42] servic, but when i resume
[00:20:45] work, there are times i travel from lagos, for instance let me shock you that
[00:20:49] i came to
[00:20:50] to lagos this morning from ebado and i was there before 9 o'clock
[00:20:53] because i know my duty, everyone in Nigeria
[00:20:57] must do theirs, mr. president cannot be all over the
[00:21:01] place, so if Mr. President have increased allocation going
[00:21:05] to states times three, who is now saying is the duty
[00:21:09] of his president to provide this in the state, to provide this in
[00:21:13] the state, so any state that is not doing the right thing, we normally tell
[00:21:17] them, and i use my own state as an... example for
[00:21:20] you in state things are not done properly and i said to
[00:21:24] mr governor say i'm from this state but don't living
[00:21:28] illegal for the past 30 years you must do the right thing here let
[00:21:31] people know what you supposed to do so i criticize anything
[00:21:35] that is all right so sir you know many people will be
[00:21:39] listening to you today and thinking you have spoken
[00:21:43] um quite forcefully on how you tell the
[00:21:47] truth always you willing to critic. size,
[00:21:51] but it may seem that you're not giving the
[00:21:54] another party the same right that you have to criticize
[00:21:58] others, that's one. secondly,
[00:22:00] you know, in Christiandom were taught that when we have
[00:22:04] issues or differences, we go back home or into the
[00:22:07] community and discuss this, instead of
[00:22:11] like back and forth, especially in the media, you're coming
[00:22:15] out today, does this seem like uh, doesn't it come
[00:22:18] across for some people? the see that it comes across as if you
[00:22:21] are um going against your brothers
[00:22:25] in you know in
[00:22:27] the in the fold instead of sitting down in a
[00:22:31] private place discuss this issue and then come out with one
[00:22:34] voice if the avenue is provided
[00:22:38] if you have a brother that does not believe in what you
[00:22:41] do and
[00:22:42] it's unfortunate that you know for if
[00:22:46] you don't know i am the chairman of christian association of nigerian lagos.
[00:22:50] and I'm also a member the national executive body
[00:22:54] of can, but if people you expect to be at meeting don't come to
[00:22:58] meetings even your decisions are not respected by
[00:23:02] them, but they believe they are the only one that knows
[00:23:05] everything and whatever they want, they are the one that will pursue
[00:23:08] it, there is no way the place the Holy Spirit in all of this,
[00:23:12] exactly, there is no way you will now keep quiet when they are saying what
[00:23:16] is not correct, because I don't belong to that school of thoughts.
[00:23:20] "I give everybody opportunity to hear their view, but we must
[00:23:23] agree, but if we don't agree, you cannot go mr. to mr president and
[00:23:27] present your own view as a view the church, that is the point
[00:23:31] here, but if they come to a meeting, I am free, I am open
[00:23:35] to attend meeting with anybody, any group, that is why people have
[00:23:39] access to the presidency, if because some of us are serving
[00:23:42] there and we say no, don't accept these people, don't accept these people, how can they be there,
[00:23:46] but because we believe everybody..." has mr
[00:23:50] president here and you can visit him and he's accommodating
[00:23:54] everybody, but that must be done with decorum, that must be done with
[00:23:57] respect. okay, and we must agree, if it is Christian association of
[00:24:01] Nigeria that visited Mr. president, and the president the
[00:24:05] Christian association of Nigeria presented our case, you
[00:24:09] will never see me go against it, because it's a collective
[00:24:13] decision, but a block, that's what I'm saying, in
[00:24:17] can, when we have five,
[00:24:19] you cannot. go there and tell his president this is the position the
[00:24:23] church? no, we will not accept that. so you're insisting that he's representing just
[00:24:26] himself and the block that he belongs to. okay, okay, so that's
[00:24:30] why some nigerians believe that um, some of you
[00:24:34] um that you people should stay out of politics. um, but a country
[00:24:38] where we know that religion plays a very significant role, what do you
[00:24:42] think? we cannot stay out of politics unless we are deceiving ourselves.
[00:24:45] augustin says every human being is a political animal, like
[00:24:49] i said to you, I said the politics we have in church is more than
[00:24:53] the one you have outside, for instance, I give you another example, I told you I
[00:24:57] came from ebador, we are having the conference of this church Nigeria and as
[00:25:01] I'm speaking and I got permission from the president the
[00:25:04] church to be here, we are going to elect
[00:25:08] bishops this week or Sunday morning,
[00:25:12] in zener politics, we are going to vote and the one
[00:25:16] that has the highest vote will match and there is no way.
[00:25:20] when you have human beings, people will lobby, people will say this, people will
[00:25:24] converse for vote, but we will tell everybody allow holy spirit
[00:25:27] to direct, but immediately we enter where we are going to
[00:25:31] vote, people will tell you holy spirit will leave us, so let's do our
[00:25:35] own, and they now begin to vote, they now begin to speak
[00:25:39] for this, and when you now have period like this, you
[00:25:43] begin to hear story about ministers, those that are true,
[00:25:47] those that are unreal, everybody will be presenting their own, but at the end
[00:25:50] the day there will still be election and people
[00:25:54] will match winner which is also politics all right so
[00:25:58] do you think that um cleric should speak out more forcefully on good?
[00:26:02] governance and them because we know that there are even the
[00:26:06] presidency, we know that all um policy goes through the
[00:26:09] presidency, so if there are some policies that are unjust, can you
[00:26:13] speak forcefully against it, even though it to put out odds
[00:26:17] against the presidency, definitely, that's that is the reason we
[00:26:21] believe in what is right, if you do anything that is
[00:26:24] not right, i will not be part of it, even as you have a political
[00:26:28] position with my position and mr president knows
[00:26:31] me? everybody knows me that I will say the truth and I
[00:26:35] will make suggestion that anything that would not be people
[00:26:39] oriented, things that will not benefit the majority the
[00:26:43] people, we don't take such decision, because we cannot defend
[00:26:46] it, if there are things that we need to
[00:26:49] mention that we can look at this from this way, Mr. President, let us
[00:26:53] check this way, and that will be considered, and that was what
[00:26:57] Mr. President said, if you read what he responded
[00:27:00] to, he said, "anything you think is not right,
[00:27:04] bring it on table, let us look at it together, and from time to
[00:27:08] time we will discuss them and ensure that the proper things
[00:27:12] are done for the people, and the reason is because one day
[00:27:16] we're going to leave the office, yeah, and people will
[00:27:19] now see what we have done, posterity will
[00:27:22] vindicate, yes, or speak against us, all right sir, thank you for
[00:27:26] that, but let's go a short break, when we come back, we'll conclude this conversation,
[00:27:30] stay with us, we'll be right back."
[00:27:38] Stay tuned, your view will be right
[00:27:41] back.
[00:28:16] Yeah, I wanted to ask you know um, because when you were talking earlier, you mentioned,
[00:28:20] you know that some these comments were made for their social media following, so
[00:28:24] how would you say social media and public opinion have made
[00:28:28] it more difficult for clerics to interact with political leaders without?
[00:28:32] been misunderstood, you know now everybody is
[00:28:36] newscaster, everybody is a broadcaster, everybody
[00:28:40] now operates their own studio in their own homes
[00:28:43] and their convenience, because the social
[00:28:47] media, the phone that you have once you can type,
[00:28:51] now it do even give you the correct spelling, because when you read some comment you
[00:28:55] will shake your head, but there are application that will
[00:28:59] give you the correct spelling and you begin to type just anything, hm. and you put
[00:29:03] it out there, that is why it is very, very
[00:29:06] important for religious leaders to be conscious of whatever they
[00:29:10] say, because before you say it is already in
[00:29:14] the uh marketplace and people begin to comment on
[00:29:17] them, and the social media have done more evil than
[00:29:21] good to our society, he has made us more
[00:29:25] lazy than before, because there is nothing you want on your
[00:29:29] head i will not give you a thousand results and moment you
[00:29:33] speak, they will put it there i help you to spread
[00:29:36] it on all angles, so that is why we are saying to
[00:29:40] ourselves, yes, it's true, social media can help us to spread
[00:29:44] the gospel, can help us to propagate the gospel, but at the same
[00:29:47] time it must be handled with caution so
[00:29:51] that we don't deray and we don't mislead the
[00:29:55] people, because we are opinion builders
[00:29:58] and we can tell people what to do, but once we say
[00:30:02] Hm, it will be difficult to retrieve. Yeah, okay, so we need to be
[00:30:06] careful, especially with social media. We have call,
[00:30:10] um, Shagu is calling us from Ikorodu, good morning shegun. Hello,
[00:30:14] good morning, my sisters, good morning,
[00:30:18] yeah, good morning, yeah, I want to greet all of you in the
[00:30:22] studio there, you know, yeah, I want
[00:30:24] to, yeah, I'm listening to
[00:30:27] everything that the bishop of say, okay, I want to ask
[00:30:31] one question. is um what the cat
[00:30:35] priest, the catholic bishops, what they said to Mr.
[00:30:38] President, is he, is he right or wrong, and at the same
[00:30:42] time,
[00:30:43] are they speaking the mind of at least average Nigerian, is
[00:30:47] there insecurity in the land, is there poverty in the
[00:30:50] land, is there aship in the land, I want the
[00:30:54] bishop to respond, and at the same time, see, when we are
[00:30:58] talking national TV,