TVPINFO — 100 pytan do...
20260920 010500 UTC
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[00:00:00] I'm wondering what question to start with, because so-called so much is happening social reasons, however,
[00:00:03] politically, and I know from experience that you are very
[00:00:07] conservative and
[00:00:10] try to answer very diplomatically, especially for a
[00:00:13] politician, because I guess I can call you a politician, so
[00:00:17] maybe after all, when
[00:00:19] will the Constitutional Tribunal, in your opinion, start functioning as it
[00:00:22] should?
[00:00:25] I think that awaits us in the coming
[00:00:28] months. That we are somewhere approaching this breakthrough, which
[00:00:32] is related to the election of eight judges by the Sejm
[00:00:36] of the Republic of Poland, and perhaps to the fact that, however,
[00:00:39] this moment is brewing
[00:00:42] of admitting to adjudicate persons
[00:00:45] who were elected but
[00:00:49] are questioned by the President, and I think that there may also be such
[00:00:52] a peculiar situation when some of the judges elected
[00:00:55] earlier, i.e., still during
[00:00:59] the PiS era, simply... decide that they no longer want to
[00:01:02] work and adjudicate in this tribunal, which is led in such a way by Bogdan
[00:01:05] Święczkowski. And can the chairman, the head
[00:01:09] of the Constitutional Tribunal, be detained? Well,
[00:01:12] considering that the prosecution has taken up the case
[00:01:16] of precisely not allowing
[00:01:19] reminding that our law, I remember these the judges we are talking about to work, well, the Minister
[00:01:22] of Justice seems to be quite desperate
[00:01:25] in wanting to take any actions on this matter. I don't
[00:01:29] know if... detention must be necessary
[00:01:32] immediately, however, I think that
[00:01:35] actions regarding the lifting of immunity in connection with the
[00:01:39] Pegasus case may be repeated, because
[00:01:42] let's recall that this motion was submitted about, well,
[00:01:46] almost a year ago, however, in my opinion, it
[00:01:48] was not properly and duly examined by the general assembly,
[00:01:52] I think that somewhere in the background there is also the matter of Hermes, i.e., this
[00:01:56] software purchased by the prosecutor.
[00:02:07] And finally, well, this situation of not allowing judges to adjudicate and preventing legally elected judges can also
[00:02:11] lead to some criminal consequences. In a moment
[00:02:14] it will be three years since the October elections of 2023,
[00:02:18] to be honest, to be honest, what about
[00:02:22] our rule of law and will
[00:02:26] this year change anything, since three years were not enough, in your opinion? I think that each subsequent
[00:02:30] week or month brings changes when it comes
[00:02:33] to actually restoring the rule of law,
[00:02:36] repairing the functioning of our state, I think that the way
[00:02:40] courts and prosecutor's offices operate
[00:02:44] in no way, that is,
[00:02:47] it is a completely different
[00:02:49] quality than it was in
[00:02:51] 2023, and I think that this year will be used, for example, we will start
[00:02:54] to feel, in my opinion, an acceleration of court proceedings, because many
[00:02:57] things have been achieved in this area. This is very important for citizens, that they not only have
[00:03:01] an independent judiciary, but also better courts,
[00:03:04] however, I think that regarding some issues, we will still
[00:03:08] be in a big dispute, I think that especially the status
[00:03:11] of judges, that is, what needs to be
[00:03:14] done with the so-called neo-judges, judges appointed
[00:03:17] after 2018,
[00:03:21] this will still be such
[00:03:24] an Achilles' heel of the functioning of our judiciary, with
[00:03:28] us today journalists who...
[00:04:00] the sunset clause, when it comes to assistance for people from
[00:04:03] Ukraine, what are its consequences, including depriving
[00:04:06] uninsured people from
[00:04:09] Ukraine of health insurance, and the second
[00:04:13] thing, which is somewhat related, somewhat not,
[00:04:16] how do you assess today the suspension of the right
[00:04:20] to apply for asylum, for international protection at the
[00:04:23] Polish-Belarusian border,
[00:04:27] I think that both laws... are
[00:04:30] a consequence of very serious political disputes that
[00:04:34] we have,
[00:04:36] it seems to me that regarding the first law, the sunset law, I think
[00:04:40] that we should go back and consider whether
[00:04:43] it actually caused more negative consequences
[00:04:46] than benefits, however,
[00:04:49] of course, the law concerning this
[00:04:53] temporary suspension of the right to apply for asylum, it was
[00:04:56] strictly related to bringing about... the cessation
[00:05:00] of this migration route, which was artificially created
[00:05:03] by Putin and Lukashenka, the Prime Minister announced
[00:05:07] his intention from the beginning, and I think that if we look from a certain
[00:05:10] perspective, then regardless of these... very serious
[00:05:14] consequences, also doubts from the point of view of human rights, this migration
[00:05:18] route, well, practically ceased to exist
[00:05:21] and does not have such
[00:05:25] consequences also for our sense
[00:05:28] of implementing migration policy, so if so, shouldn't
[00:05:32] we then return to the state before this law,
[00:05:36] since it fulfilled its task in your
[00:05:39] opinion, meaning should it be unsuspended? It basically...
[00:05:42] assumes that this period is to be
[00:05:45] extended every time, perhaps one should
[00:05:49] consider it, taking into account whether
[00:05:53] this border closure is effective.
[00:05:56] It seems to me that what is also important, and what may have some influence on the
[00:06:00] debate, is that we are waiting for the ruling of the European Court of Human
[00:06:03] Rights in Strasbourg, here this case
[00:06:07] has been pending for many years,
[00:06:10] recently the Chisinau Declaration was adopted within
[00:06:14] the framework of the Council of Europe system, and I think that what the tribunal says, because
[00:06:18] this does not only concern us, it also concerns other countries, Lithuania,
[00:06:21] Estonia, Latvia, Finland, I think it will
[00:06:24] also have significant importance from the point of view of shaping European
[00:06:28] policy, and it also seems to me that it is worth
[00:06:31] debates very well, it was largely modeled on Finnish solutions,
[00:06:35] Finland adopted such solutions
[00:06:38] a long time ago. Marzana Taborolszewska. As the
[00:06:42] Commissioner for Human Rights, well, it will be
[00:06:45] 10, almost 11 years, since you organized round
[00:06:49] tables aimed at counteracting
[00:06:52] hate speech, what do you think now, 10
[00:06:56] years later, what is happening, what is being said, who
[00:07:00] is it affecting, what do you
[00:07:02] think? I think
[00:07:05] that in its own way, of course,
[00:07:09] I see how we have a lot of cases of hate speech.
[00:07:13] especially towards Ukrainians,
[00:07:16] there was even such a very interesting interview
[00:07:19] by editor Jacek Żakowski on Tok FM with a person who
[00:07:23] represents and is associated with the organization Stand With Ukraine, and
[00:07:26] I think that in its own way it is sad, terrifying, that this
[00:07:30] person said, a lawyer, that she basically has several
[00:07:34] reports every day of various cases of hate speech or
[00:07:37] violence due to hatred, what comforts me
[00:07:41] is that the Polish state continues to
[00:07:44] react, meaning if we see these various videos on the internet, if
[00:07:48] we report these cases, we see the activity
[00:07:50] of the police, I think that these
[00:07:53] teams of prosecutors that were appointed
[00:07:56] back in my time are working very well, Minister Żurek
[00:08:00] strengthened the impact, however, I think that in fact from a
[00:08:04] practical point of view, what is the greatest
[00:08:07] harm to this issue is the vetoing
[00:08:10] of the law implementing the Digital Services Act. To
[00:08:19] give this
[00:08:23] topic to corporations, because let's note that when it comes to
[00:08:26] big tech, it's not just about allowing
[00:08:30] the spread of hate speech, but also deep fakes, and I think
[00:08:34] it's a good thing that Rafał Brzoska started fighting so fiercely,
[00:08:38] which also met with a good reaction from the Polish government, well,
[00:08:40] somewhere I have the impression that solutions in a situation where
[00:08:44] unfortunately this presidential
[00:08:46] veto appeared.
[00:08:50] Senator, will you actually use
[00:08:54] an argument that will confirm our belief that Maciej Berek should
[00:08:58] be in the Constitutional Tribunal, because I think
[00:09:00] you will defend this candidacy, I would be surprised if
[00:09:04] you said something contrary, and yet
[00:09:07] it must be admitted that this is something completely against what
[00:09:11] the Civic Coalition, the ruling coalition, promised
[00:09:14] before the 2023 elections: depoliticization of the tribunal, depoliticization
[00:09:17] of all institutions of justice. I spoke about this
[00:09:21] recently and I think I can repeat what
[00:09:24] I think,
[00:09:27] I simply have mixed feelings, because of course I am aware of this law, which was
[00:09:31] passed in 2024, I am
[00:09:33] aware that there was a four-year
[00:09:37] grace period provided, but on the other
[00:09:40] hand, when... of the Sejm,
[00:09:47] I emphasize the Sejm, not the Senate, was made, and Judge Maciej
[00:09:51] Berek was elected to serve this function, we will probably have this
[00:09:55] dispute with the President now, but I think that in the end, even
[00:09:57] if the President blocks the taking
[00:10:01] of this oath, Maciej Berek will probably be in the same situation as those
[00:10:05] four judges
[00:10:08] who took this oath before the President, but
[00:10:11] unfortunately not in the presence of the President, so probably
[00:10:14] somewhere in the Sejm's Column Hall,
[00:10:18] by submitting an appropriate statement to the filing office, but
[00:10:21] coming back to Maciej Berek, I think if we look.
[00:10:55] justice, but I think that what connects these people
[00:10:59] is hard work and building this credit of trust, and I think
[00:11:03] that Maciej Berek, taking into account his legal competencies, absolutely
[00:11:06] extraordinary, I think he will serve the homeland well.
[00:11:10] Mikołaj Pietraszewski, Radio Z, if you had to name your greatest
[00:11:13] achievement and your greatest failure as Minister of Justice,
[00:11:17] because it cannot be denied that your mission was nevertheless stopped, well,
[00:11:21] you probably expected to be in that position for longer than a year and a half, so
[00:11:24] what? What do you truly consider
[00:11:27] a success, and what do you truly consider your failure in that
[00:11:30] position? I think that when it comes to
[00:11:34] successes, I did a lot
[00:11:37] at the very beginning to unblock funds from the National
[00:11:40] Recovery Plan and to convince the European Commission to
[00:11:44] make this decision, it was not simple and obvious at all,
[00:11:48] something that I think we are even feeling very
[00:11:51] strongly now is joining the European Prosecutor's Office.
[00:11:55] That is, when I see how the prosecutor's office operates, how
[00:11:58] consistent it is, what proceedings it conducts, and also how it shows in a certain sense what
[00:12:02] the independence of the European Prosecutor's Office
[00:12:06] can entail, I feel a great sense
[00:12:09] of satisfaction, especially since thanks to this
[00:12:12] we function quite efficiently in this
[00:12:16] system of European circulation and EU law. I will also say there was one
[00:12:19] moment where I was even quite
[00:12:21] moved, right after the election
[00:12:25] night, when Peter Magyar
[00:12:27] spoke,
[00:12:29] his great speech, before he started talking about what
[00:12:33] he would do with the president, the Supreme
[00:12:35] Court, the Constitutional Court
[00:12:38] and the Prosecutor
[00:12:41] General of Hungary, he said that he would join the European Prosecutor's
[00:12:45] Office, which actually happened within a few weeks, and
[00:12:49] I think that somewhere this is a bit of an effect of learning lessons from
[00:12:52] what happened in Poland, however, as for... failure,
[00:12:56] I think, or
[00:12:58] rather, I won't beat myself up, that, I don't know, accountability didn't go
[00:13:02] as it should, but perhaps I explained it a little poorly or
[00:13:05] insufficiently, perhaps
[00:13:07] I
[00:13:10] didn't manage to convince public opinion that it simply has to go
[00:13:13] at such a pace, because otherwise it's not possible for
[00:13:17] accountability to simply be in accordance with the law and procedure, and I think
[00:13:20] that perhaps somewhere at this level
[00:13:24] of... communication and telling about these
[00:13:27] matters, something was missing, I even remember that when the
[00:13:31] moment of summaries came and I presented a whole list
[00:13:34] of cases, where they are, at what stage, and so on, many people said, "Well, we didn't
[00:13:38] know about that," so perhaps somewhere that was missing. You don't have,
[00:13:42] excuse me for interrupting, that feeling that the entire
[00:13:45] government has a communication problem? I think it's a bit of blaming
[00:13:49] that communication failed, well yes, but I'm
[00:13:53] talking about myself, I know, I know.
[00:13:56] for which I was responsible in the ministry and the prosecutor's office, I think
[00:13:59] that what is missing in government communication is
[00:14:03] really a very hard reach
[00:14:06] to different social groups with the things that are
[00:14:09] being achieved, well, such an example from the last
[00:14:12] few days, the law
[00:14:15] implementing the Artificial Intelligence
[00:14:17] Act just came into force, a powerful law,
[00:14:21] fundamental for all of us, for the market,
[00:14:24] for... the economy, what's more, the Sejm
[00:14:27] just elected a person who will serve on this special committee, which will
[00:14:31] deal with supervising how these artificial intelligence
[00:14:35] systems work, and I have the impression that this is a topic that is of interest to a really very
[00:14:39] minimal group, and that there isn't some kind of extended
[00:14:43] campaign about what this is for our citizens, why it
[00:14:47] is needed, of course Minister Gawkowski, Prime Minister Gawkowski will do his part, but I have the impression that
[00:14:51] it is more departmental than
[00:14:53] general, and I think that many such topics exist where
[00:14:56] the government perhaps focuses too much on
[00:15:00] such big issues that are catchy, that are
[00:15:02] trending on social media, and perhaps does
[00:15:06] not notice many other smaller topics that
[00:15:10] also matter from the point of view of improving citizens' lives.
[00:15:13] Jakub Majmurek, Political Critique, a bit of a follow-up question to this
[00:15:17] thread, here it was a question to you about your biggest
[00:15:20] defeat, maybe I'll ask about a similar thing a bit differently, what would you do
[00:15:24] today, having the knowledge you have today, differently during this
[00:15:27] term of yours, or for example, would you seek a compromise with
[00:15:31] President Duda regarding addressing certain issues through legislation,
[00:15:34] for example related to such
[00:15:38] institutions as the Supreme Court, the National Council of the Judiciary, the Constitutional Tribunal,
[00:15:42] or would you proceed, if you were to become
[00:15:46] Minister of Justice again in 2023, knowing
[00:15:49] what you know, exactly the same? Well, each of us is of course richer in
[00:15:53] experience and perspective on our
[00:15:57] reality from the point of view of what worked, what didn't
[00:16:00] work
[00:16:02] and what could have been the consequences of our actions, right, so I
[00:16:06] won't say that one is wiser after the event,
[00:16:09] but it seems to me that what the editor said is very important
[00:16:13] in the context of this compromise with
[00:16:15] the President, there was such a moment in April-May
[00:16:18] 2024, what to do with the National Council of the Judiciary, who
[00:16:22] should, who could be a candidate for the National Council of the Judiciary, even in
[00:16:25] the Senate we introduced such a Senate amendment, somewhat guided
[00:16:28] by the opinion of the Venice Commission,
[00:16:31] however, what was very characteristic, and perhaps that was my
[00:16:35] mistake, maybe I should have stood my ground to... strive for it, but
[00:16:38] I remember the gigantic
[00:16:40] opposition
[00:16:42] of civil society, judges'
[00:16:45] associations, many people who generally went with the
[00:16:48] narrative, "we didn't demonstrate for this, so we're not going to compromise
[00:16:52] now," at some point a somewhat
[00:16:55] different approach was adopted, I also
[00:16:59] lived with this approach, and perhaps
[00:17:01] that was the mistake, that we are waiting for the presidential
[00:17:05] elections and that the presidential elections will give us
[00:17:15] laws that will weigh various goods, especially here it concerned
[00:17:19] either the laws on the National Council of the Judiciary, or the law
[00:17:22] on the Supreme Court or the status of judges, and then unfortunately
[00:17:25] a big flop, June 1st, lost presidential
[00:17:29] elections, and here returning to the editor's question, well, this is one of
[00:17:32] the reasons why the restoration of the rule of law is not going so
[00:17:35] great, well, because it's hard to do everything
[00:17:39] you want when you can't pass laws so that they
[00:17:42] are binding, because you can't even reject a presidential
[00:17:46] veto, or also when I don't even mention
[00:17:50] the Hungarian situation, when you can change the constitution, right, well, Hungarians
[00:17:53] are really in a very comfortable situation in this regard.
[00:17:57] Michał Tomasik, Polityka weekly, I would love to ask you about the Constitutional
[00:18:00] Tribunal and that whole Pandora's box, but I would like
[00:18:03] to establish who
[00:18:06] is speaking to us... is Adam Bodnar still
[00:18:10] a lawyer, a professor of law, a former
[00:18:14] Commissioner for Human Rights, and a former president of the Helsinki Foundation for Human
[00:18:17] Rights, or is he already a full-blooded politician,
[00:18:21] has he become a politician, because I want to understand what you will
[00:18:24] tell me? No, well, editor, I
[00:18:26] made a conscious decision in mid-
[00:18:29] 2023 to run in the parliamentary
[00:18:32] elections.
[00:18:34] to run and associate myself
[00:18:37] with one of the political forces,
[00:18:40] and I became, I was elected to
[00:18:44] parliament and I am associated with the parliamentary club of the Civic
[00:18:47] Coalition, and what's more, I served
[00:18:51] as minister
[00:18:53] in a
[00:18:57] government that is, by nature, political, and
[00:19:01] I neither deny nor am ashamed of it, and I simply
[00:19:04] carry out my tasks, which are political tasks. And legal knowledge
[00:19:08] I think helps me in solving various things and perhaps also
[00:19:12] drawing attention to various problems that are somewhat unnoticed. Does
[00:19:15] the politician Adam Bodnar still believe that, for example,
[00:19:19] the Constitutional Tribunal can be repaired with a scalpel, or is he already on the side
[00:19:23] that wants to storm it,
[00:19:26] just to manage to change something? I still
[00:19:30] believe it is possible, that it is possible
[00:19:33] to repair it with a scalpel, and I think that those
[00:19:37] people who have been elected to the tribunal are aware of this
[00:19:41] and will also try to act in such a way
[00:19:44] that this tribunal is repaired in this way. And
[00:19:48] I will ask again, because a guest from two
[00:19:52] weeks ago in this studio, Bartosz
[00:19:54] Rurkiewicz, although not in this program, but in another, said that
[00:19:58] he would like Maciej Berek to kick
[00:20:00] down the doors of the Constitutional Tribunal and really put
[00:20:04] things in order there. Does your legal heart,
[00:20:08] your legal foundations not resonate with that
[00:20:11] a little, when you hear that, do you identify with such a view?
[00:20:14] I believe that such statements are unfortunate,
[00:20:18] I believe that they hinder
[00:20:21] more than they help, I think that those people who
[00:20:24] are elected to judges' positions are well
[00:20:27] aware of the responsibility that rests upon them and what kind of tribunal
[00:20:30] they would like to work in and how this tribunal should
[00:20:34] serve citizens, and I think that such... what's
[00:20:37] more, I was also recently asked about various strategies,
[00:20:41] what to do with the tribunal, how to resolve it, I believe that quite the opposite, that is,
[00:20:45] politicians should actually limit themselves at this moment, that is, they should trust that these
[00:20:49] people who received a mandate,
[00:20:52] know perfectly well what they have to do and will create
[00:20:56] strategies that will actually serve to repair
[00:20:58] the functioning of the tribunal and regain public
[00:21:02] trust. Marcin Knężelok, TVP
[00:21:06] Info portal. Professor, I wanted to ask you as a human
[00:21:10] rights defender, because I think you still remain one. Do
[00:21:13] you feel good in a party that, at the European level, I asked
[00:21:17] Bartosz Rurkiewicz the same question recently. A party
[00:21:20] that at the European level aligns with the far-right, with people
[00:21:24] who have little in common with human
[00:21:27] rights, or does
[00:21:30] that suit you, because in 2027
[00:21:34] we have elections in almost all the most
[00:21:37] important countries in Europe, and they are going to, well,
[00:21:40] completely destroy the rule of law also in Poland,
[00:21:44] at the same time it is clear that the EPP is aligning
[00:21:46] in all possible ways, at the same time from...
[00:21:56] on a daily basis in the context of the functioning of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council
[00:22:00] of Europe, because I am
[00:22:02] a member of this Polish delegation from the Senate since
[00:22:05] basically January, but actually I started working in
[00:22:09] March, my experience so far regarding
[00:22:12] functioning within the EPP, well, it's about dealing jointly and I think
[00:22:16] in agreement with these topics that are important to me, and here I never had
[00:22:20] any sense of dissonance in the Parliamentary Assembly, and what's more,
[00:22:24] these are even topics that, with regret I say this,
[00:22:28] Polish media are not particularly interested in, for example, sanctions against
[00:22:31] judges of the International Criminal Court, right,
[00:22:34] or issues
[00:22:37] related
[00:22:40] to this ruling against Osman Kavala,
[00:22:43] which is a ruling of the European Court of Human Rights, i.e.
[00:22:47] of this imprisoned.
[00:23:50] even at the cost of legislative compromises, or should
[00:23:53] it rather follow a path that
[00:23:56] Donald Tusk once called "fighting democracy," meaning even going
[00:23:59] for broke, bypassing some loopholes in the law, despite
[00:24:03] everything to circumvent, for example, presidential
[00:24:06] vetoes? I think that the
[00:24:09] strategy that I also implemented,
[00:24:13] namely, to bring about real change in the functioning
[00:24:16] of institutions on the basis of existing
[00:24:21] laws, for example, in the case of the National Prosecutor, for example, but
[00:24:24] also the issue of changing the presidents of courts, I think
[00:24:28] this was very, very important, or solving the problem
[00:24:32] of this disciplinary responsibility, these mass disciplinary
[00:24:35] proceedings against judges, we don't remember it anymore, how
[00:24:39] judges were harassed for their activities, and yet it was possible to
[00:24:43] curb this in 2024,
[00:24:45] and then to solve the problem of those three famous gentlemen Schab,
[00:24:49] Radzik. Lasota, I started it, Waldemar Żurek, Minister
[00:24:52] Żurek finished it, it seems to
[00:24:55] me that this is a strategy that should be continued, and it seems to me that what's more, this
[00:24:59] year there is one very big success, a very tangible,
[00:25:03] concrete success, accepted by, I think, the legal
[00:25:06] communities, political ones, it's difficult in
[00:25:09] conditions of polarization, but I think it will also be accepted by international
[00:25:13] communities, namely the repair of the functioning of the National Council
[00:25:16] of the Judiciary, however, please note that this happened on
[00:25:19] the basis of the existing law after both Duda
[00:25:22] and President Duda and President Nawrocki vetoed
[00:25:26] the laws, however, it happened in such a way that judges were given
[00:25:30] a voice, who would you like to see as your representatives in the National
[00:25:33] Council of the Judiciary, and the National Council of the Judiciary is working,
[00:25:37] it conducts competitions for vacant judicial positions,
[00:25:41] such a situation, or this type of
[00:25:45] institutional repair, also partly due to the passage of time, may have to
[00:25:48] wait.
[00:25:51] However, I think that what awaits us sooner or
[00:25:54] later, I think it will happen after
[00:25:57] the elections, is the issue of the status of judges, because, please
[00:26:01] note, we have even if
[00:26:04] we were to somehow avoid this problem, even if we were to
[00:26:08] acknowledge that, after all, we pass laws, and the president
[00:26:11] vetoes these laws, it is still, from the point of view of EU law and the
[00:26:15] standards of the Strasbourg court, possible to question the judgments in
[00:26:19] individual cases by judges appointed after
[00:26:22] 2018. Well, this is something that affects the stability of the legal
[00:26:26] system, and this will have to be resolved at some point
[00:26:29] in some way, perhaps through... some talks
[00:26:33] with the president, but I doubt whether this will happen before the presidential
[00:26:37] elections. I imagine that it is possible. I think
[00:26:40] so. And wouldn't it have been better to reach
[00:26:43] for a solution like transitional justice in
[00:26:46] 2023, early 2024? The whole problem would have been
[00:26:50] over. Transitional justice sounds
[00:26:53] beautiful and there are many books and textbooks
[00:26:57] written on this topic, but the question is what are we talking about? Are we talking
[00:27:00] about repairing institutions, or are we talking about the issue of responsibility
[00:27:04] for various violations
[00:27:06] of the law when we talk about the atomic version then, that we simply had to
[00:27:10] go in, go in hard with the support of
[00:27:13] renowned foreign institutions with authority
[00:27:17] and simply well, solve this problem,
[00:27:20] clean up this Augean stable with a combine harvester.
[00:27:24] Okay, that sounds beautiful, Mr. Editor, but somehow I don't
[00:27:28] remember anyone pointing out how to
[00:27:31] actually do it.
[00:27:33] at the same time, not to escalate violence in our public life, i.e., not to
[00:27:36] engage the apparatus
[00:27:39] of power and at the same time ensure that this
[00:27:43] change is maintained. A simple example, one thing that came
[00:27:46] up in the debate is the National Council of the Judiciary, right, that
[00:27:50] you should go in, close it, suspend it, right,
[00:27:53] put a padlock on it and completely ban its activities, but
[00:27:56] I said to that argument, well, what will stop those
[00:27:59] judges who sit on the National Council of the Judiciary, and other people
[00:28:03] from the KRS, from appearing the next day at the President's Chancellery and
[00:28:07] gathering there and continuing to act as the National Council of the Judiciary in
[00:28:11] a situation where the law is still in force? But do you think that PiS
[00:28:14] will be as delicate as you, if they regained power, as delicate as
[00:28:18] you, as your government? I don't know what PiS will do, I don't
[00:28:21] know what the ruling coalition will do, but I have always
[00:28:25] believed that this change, which concerns the rule of law, must
[00:28:29] be consistent, it must take place in the spirit of constitutional
[00:28:34] values, but it must also be carried out in such a way that it is actually
[00:28:38] feasible, and I will give you a concrete
[00:28:40] example: the first year we worked
[00:28:44] very intensively on this with Mr. Minister Mazur and with Judge
[00:28:47] Marta Koszychowska Warywoda, who was the director
[00:28:51] of the department of personnel and judicial organization, on changing presidents in
[00:28:54] courts. This was not an easy process at all, which means that we managed to change
[00:28:58] 120 presidents and vice-presidents.
[00:29:02] in the courts, what was of great value to me was that in most
[00:29:06] cases, in over 90 percent, these changes were maintained in the courts,
[00:29:10] meaning that the judges accepted it and that we, as the public,
[00:29:13] stopped being interested in it at all, stopped discussing it,
[00:29:15] analyzing who is where, I don't
[00:29:19] know, in Rzeszów, Gdańsk or Poznań, as
[00:29:22] the president of the court. I believe that from the point of view of democratic values, that's what
[00:29:26] it should be about, that a change is made and that change simply
[00:29:29] holds, that there is no escalation that could...
[00:29:51] We are observing a rise of the far right
[00:29:54] virtually everywhere, I'm not saying anything new, I have a feeling that one of the defeats, one of the reasons for Rafał Trzaskowski's defeat, which was so
[00:29:58] painful for the ruling coalition,
[00:30:00] due to these
[00:30:04] reasons, was precisely that he stepped into those right-wing shoes, of course not the far
[00:30:08] right, but still towards the right wing.
[00:30:12] Don't you have the feeling that the Civic Coalition is still going
[00:30:15] in that direction, trying to
[00:30:18] somehow jump on that right-wing
[00:30:21] horse, observing the moods and observing,
[00:30:25] observing the polls, and isn't it the case that this is
[00:30:29] an absolutely unfavorable strategy for the Civic Coalition?
[00:30:34] "I think that certainly some themes, some
[00:30:37] actions may give that
[00:30:41] impression, however, I will
[00:30:44] still point out that
[00:30:47] at the same time there are several things that are from the entire, that are from the so-called
[00:30:50] leftist agenda, which are also very strongly and effectively
[00:30:54] implemented, what's more, abortion,
[00:30:57] for example, well, for example abortion,
[00:31:01] I believe that what we did
[00:31:04] together with Minister Leszczyna in
[00:31:07] September 2024, which means adopting
[00:31:10] the guidelines of the Minister of Health and the guidelines of the Prosecutor General in
[00:31:14] the matter of: accessibility of legal abortion in fact led
[00:31:18] to remedying the effects of the Constitutional Tribunal's
[00:31:21] ruling. According to statistics, we currently have even probably
[00:31:25] more legal abortions performed than before
[00:31:28] the ruling. I realize that this is not the fulfillment
[00:31:32] of electoral postulates, because they were broader both from the
[00:31:35] left and from the Civic
[00:31:37] Coalition. I am talking about abortion for
[00:31:41] the coalition has such
[00:31:44] rights, I understand, probably not much more will be achieved
[00:31:47] in this term, but let's take, for example,
[00:31:50] in my opinion, I know it was born with pain, but still,
[00:31:54] the execution of the judgment of the European Court of Justice in
[00:31:58] the case of the Mazovian Voivode, that is, the judgment of Messrs. Cupriak
[00:32:01] and Trojan, that is, unions, that is, recognizing
[00:32:05] same-sex marriages that were concluded outside the country,
[00:32:09] well, when I see Prime Minister Gawkowski today, who says,
[00:32:12] I saw such a graphic that... 328
[00:32:15] couples obtained transcripts, it wouldn't
[00:32:18] have happened if the government had not issued appropriate
[00:32:21] regulations, it was a green
[00:32:24] light, who knows if Zbigniew Ziobro didn't indirectly contribute
[00:32:28] to it, because there was a certain moment of temporal coincidence, when
[00:32:31] Zbigniew Ziobro appeared in the United States on the same day, the Prime Minister
[00:32:35] announced that we were still executing the judgment, but
[00:32:38] also, I don't know, the women on boards directive was implemented,
[00:32:42] we are implementing the directive concerning
[00:33:02] but during the time of PiS, one could not count on any discussion, so
[00:33:05] indeed
[00:33:08] this is a long way
[00:33:10] that we have come since when
[00:33:14] they were adopting
[00:33:23] something like that, or doesn't a citizen, looking at
[00:33:26] what Grzegorz Braun is doing, what the Border
[00:33:29] Guard movement is doing, and various other initiatives
[00:33:33] of Robert Bankiewicz, doesn't a citizen, looking at all this, get the feeling that
[00:33:37] the state is somewhat helpless in the face of all this? Well,
[00:33:40] we see subsequent actions by Grzegorz Braun, which, well, you don't need
[00:33:44] to have a doctorate in law to
[00:33:47] guess that they quite clearly
[00:33:51] break the law, sometimes we still hear about some subsequent
[00:33:55] votes in the European Parliament on the removal of some
[00:33:58] immunity from Grzegorz Braun in a specific case, and when his immunity is
[00:34:02] removed, he manages to break the law in four or
[00:34:05] several several more cases. Here I wanted to
[00:34:09] ask you if this is not also some problem, or how do
[00:34:13] you assess this problem as... a lawyer, also as a person who dealt
[00:34:17] with human rights, and also taking
[00:34:20] into account the realities of hybrid warfare, the realities of Russian
[00:34:23] information, does the state today have the tools
[00:34:26] to fight, for example, I don't know, actors who,
[00:34:30] instrumentally using freedom of speech, conduct Russian
[00:34:34] disinformation? I think
[00:34:38] that even this is my appeal to
[00:34:41] you,
[00:34:44] I have the impression that we lack real
[00:34:47] monitoring
[00:34:50] and close observation of the prosecutor's office, and also of
[00:34:53] the courts, regarding what is happening in these particular cases, because,
[00:34:57] indeed, such a media image that emerges is that
[00:35:01] in another case, some immunity was removed, right,
[00:35:04] but I honestly don't remember in recent
[00:35:07] weeks any decent
[00:35:10] court report in several
[00:35:14] media outlets, but one medium obviously
[00:35:22] Warsaw Praga, where Grzegorz Braun is criminally liable
[00:35:26] for these few acts, including the extinguishing of Hanukkah
[00:35:30] and other things, also
[00:35:33] tracking Dr. Szumowski, right, the destruction of that famous
[00:35:36] Christmas tree, a few acts, right, there is a chance
[00:35:40] that he will soon be sentenced by the court
[00:35:43] of first instance, he got. we managed to press charges in
[00:35:47] the case of the lady doctor from Oleśnica, in
[00:35:50] the case
[00:35:52] also
[00:35:54] of these situations related to the destruction of the LGBT exhibition in the
[00:35:58] Sejm, and as I understand it, the next stage will be all these cases
[00:36:01] concerning the Auschwitz lie. I mean,
[00:36:04] of course, I would like the prosecutor's office to act faster,
[00:36:08] I would like the courts, especially, to act very efficiently here, I realize
[00:36:11] that Grzegorz Braun exploits all the weaknesses
[00:36:16] of the legal system to achieve such an effect, but
[00:36:19] I cannot agree that the state here did
[00:36:23] nothing in these matters. And why so
[00:36:27] few indictments in the cases of PiS scandals eventually
[00:36:30] reached the courts? Of course, I expect that
[00:36:33] you do not have all the information on this subject, but what do you
[00:36:37] think, because you, as the Civic Coalition, the ruling coalition,
[00:36:40] announced a very strong, fast accountability, some voters supported
[00:36:44] you on October 15, 2023, that this accountability would be complete. At
[00:36:48] this moment, we have very few of these indictments, does that mean that the evidence
[00:36:51] was simply not strong enough to be able
[00:36:54] to send these cases to the courts?
[00:36:57] I think that if we actually look at all the cases,
[00:37:01] it will suddenly turn out that there are quite a lot
[00:37:04] of these cases. If we count all the waived
[00:37:08] immunities, it will be about 30
[00:37:12] people who were affected.
[00:37:15] What's more, we have people who were not covered by immunity protection, and
[00:37:19] have cases before the court, recently the trial of General
[00:37:22] Szymczyk, the former head of the Police
[00:37:26] Headquarters, began. For the grenade launcher case, he did not have
[00:37:30] immunity
[00:37:31] protection.
[00:37:35] Sir, you feel a lack, the fact is that there are too few, wait a moment,
[00:37:38] I think that recently, in my opinion, there was a
[00:37:41] very important case, which is very
[00:37:44] symbolic for those governments, and we generally had a very interesting coincidence,
[00:37:48] because there was an indictment already very
[00:37:51] concrete, sent three weeks ago to the court by
[00:37:55] the regional prosecutor's office in Warsaw, it was about... one and a half billion
[00:37:58] zlotys of oil, which
[00:38:01] was purchased, we now know, right, that it was
[00:38:05] purchased, not delivered in Venezuela, that is, the case of OTS,
[00:38:08] Switzerland. Now, please note, we returned to this case only because
[00:38:12] of that Financial Times article, but I remember perfectly well that when that indictment
[00:38:15] was sent, it lived in the media for half a day, right,
[00:38:19] why? Because journalists were then interested primarily in Zonda Crypto, Zonda
[00:38:23] Crypto was the most important, the most significant, and that case
[00:38:27] as...
[00:38:42] Let's remember that
[00:38:45] these matters turned out to be not so simple and obvious,
[00:38:49] but complicated,
[00:38:52] and the very case of the Justice Fund, after all, before the prosecutor's office
[00:38:56] formulated it, it was at least,
[00:39:00] I think, a year since the charges were filed,
[00:39:02] and Warsaw lawyers say that's quite
[00:39:06] fast for such normal operating standards given
[00:39:09] the volume of the case. So we have something like that, and
[00:39:13] of course, I don't hide it, and I think each of us with the naked
[00:39:17] eye can see that such political
[00:39:20] pressure, such heckling from Mr.
[00:39:24] Święczkowski or Ziobro, or indeed the entire right-wing, that... we won't
[00:39:28] forget about you, dear prosecutors, also has a chilling effect
[00:39:32] for some actions, however, I believe that in these difficult conditions, with
[00:39:35] certain limited personnel
[00:39:38] capabilities, in my opinion, Prosecutor Korneluk's team is doing everything
[00:39:42] it can to show great activity. Never in Polish history,
[00:39:46] after all, have we had accountability on such a scale, that is,
[00:39:49] if we compared it to any previous governments, we never had so many
[00:39:53] scandals, so many scandals at once, and just going back to
[00:39:56] that, we have one minute left, so a quick question, a quick
[00:40:00] answer, political pressure, do you really confirm such
[00:40:04] reports, that you and Mr. Żurek probably also
[00:40:07] encountered a certain blockade and a certain obstruction in
[00:40:11] the prosecutor's office from people who were still after Zbigniew Ziobro, people who feared
[00:40:15] Zbigniew Ziobro and Law and Justice, people who feared the return of PiS to
[00:40:19] power and revenge, that they simply slowed down some investigations, and some
[00:40:22] they didn't really deal with at all, don't you have the impression that there was still
[00:40:26] a certain kind of... a certain kind of buffer?
[00:40:30] I mean, I would rather
[00:40:33] put it this way, that prosecutors are
[00:40:37] very sensitive about their own professional
[00:40:40] status, they remember very well what
[00:40:43] happened in
[00:40:46] 2016 when there was a professional
[00:40:50] degradation
[00:40:52] of over 120 prosecutors, it
[00:40:56] was a decision
[00:40:58] with Święczkowski, and it seems to me that some of them
[00:41:02] may think in terms of, why should we now
[00:41:05] sacrifice our, our
[00:41:08] lives, our future, perhaps our retirement,
[00:41:11] that is, a decent pension, for
[00:41:15] some case whose political consequences may be such
[00:41:18] and such, and now if you see that there is quite
[00:41:22] a strong polarization in public life, especially if you see that, well,
[00:41:26] the presidential elections were won by Karol... Karol Nawrocki and that the right wing has
[00:41:29] a chance to return to power, then it seems to me that some
[00:41:33] prosecutors develop such cautious thinking. Of course,
[00:41:36] in some situations, it may also involve obstructive actions by
[00:41:40] people who are connected with
[00:41:44] Zbigniew Ziobro, but I think
[00:41:47] that the most important cases are not
[00:41:50] handled by these people. It seems to me that it's rather about the general
[00:41:54] atmosphere of the prosecutor's office. We have to finish, I know
[00:41:57] there are many questions, I haven't managed to ask
[00:41:59] any. No, at the end I'll ask, will you run in the
[00:42:02] elections? I would like to, and that is my goal for the next
[00:42:05] year, to deal even
[00:42:09] more strongly with the topic related to the rights of the Polish diaspora and the situation
[00:42:12] of Poles abroad, I'm even going to
[00:42:15] London soon for two such
[00:42:19] meetings, and I would like to renew my mandate, which is
[00:42:22] a Warsaw, senatorial mandate and the votes,
[00:42:26] the votes of Poles living outside the country. Adam Bodnar was with us,
[00:42:29] thank you very much, Mr. Minister, thank you also to you in the studio and in front of
[00:42:33] your televisions, have a good evening. See
[00:42:35] you.
[00:42:59] Entering another dimension, this is Santago for adrenaline
[00:43:02] junkies, the slides are gigantic, others
[00:43:05] look like a descent to the depths of the earth, isn't NASA already doing
[00:43:09] something? and now a man-made wave
[00:43:11] is coming.
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[00:44:44] Violence is violence, it usually happens behind closed doors,
[00:44:47] react 537 375
[00:44:50] 505, helpline for seniors.