TVPINFO — Raport specjalny
20260920 181500 UTC
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[00:00:00] Warsaw supporting Grzegorz Brown, the European Parliament last
[00:00:03] week lifted his immunity, this is already
[00:00:07] the sixth lifting of immunity, and Grzegorz Brown, as he
[00:00:10] walked around and organized happenings, he still walks around and
[00:00:14] organizes happenings. Shameless happenings, because
[00:00:17] he brings signs that he then dismantles himself,
[00:00:21] but I actually think it would be good if
[00:00:24] Grzegorz Brawn bore the consequences of his
[00:00:27] actions, so that we don't have to anymore. which he
[00:00:30] funds
[00:00:40] is precisely for that, but this is a person who should disappear
[00:00:43] from public space, from media space, because he not
[00:00:47] only harms, he is simply dangerous, thank you
[00:00:50] very much, our guest on today's question was
[00:00:53] today MP Aleksandra Leo,
[00:00:56] Centre Union, I invite you now to a special report.
[00:01:37] Good evening, my name is Bianka Mikołajewska, I invite you to a special
[00:01:40] report, today on the program the returns of Andrzej
[00:01:43] Poczobut.
[00:01:45] In April 2026, after five years spent in a Belarusian
[00:01:49] prison, Andrzej Poczobut was released and came to
[00:01:52] Poland. He agreed to participate in a prisoner exchange and leave Belarus
[00:01:55] only on the condition that he would be able to
[00:01:58] return there. Last week he returned to Grodno, but
[00:02:02] only for a few days, does
[00:02:05] he plan to return permanently, how did the local
[00:02:08] services react to his appearance in Belarus, and does he not
[00:02:11] fear that he will be imprisoned again? I invite you to
[00:02:14] a film by Patryk Szczepaniak and Konrad Szczygiel, after which there will be an interview
[00:02:18] with Andrzej Poczobut.
[00:03:00] they simply considered that I was glorifying criminals and thus
[00:03:03] sparking animosity on national grounds, and the aim of these
[00:03:06] animosities is to annex a piece of Belarus
[00:03:10] to Poland, well, that I took part
[00:03:13] in an international conspiracy, but I was the only person
[00:03:17] whose name in this conspiracy was mentioned,
[00:03:21] in Grodno, Andrzej Poczobut stood before the court, who for many years
[00:03:24] was active in an illegal organization that allegedly united Poles in
[00:03:28] Belarus.
[00:04:08] today we are talking in your mother's
[00:04:11] hundred-year-old house, why are we talking here, not
[00:04:15] on the
[00:04:15] bank of the Niemen,
[00:04:21] unfortunately, where in Belarus I started a
[00:04:25] family and built a home,
[00:04:28] I was illegally detained by the Belarusian authorities, imprisoned
[00:04:32] and served my sentence and was deported from
[00:04:36] Belarus and cannot return to Belarus at this time
[00:04:39] for sure and I am afraid that I will never be able to
[00:04:43] return there. Belarus suspected that I was
[00:04:46] spying for the benefit of the Republic of Poland,
[00:04:50] spying on my brothers-in-law,
[00:04:53] because all of us, the lawyer,
[00:04:56] me, my wife, all of us, well, we thought it was
[00:04:59] some big misunderstanding, that
[00:05:02] the lawyer, who used to be a judge, an old
[00:05:05] experienced lawyer, also couldn't believe it, because there was one witness who
[00:05:09] testified against me, said that I tried to give him
[00:05:12] some bribes for writing down some car numbers
[00:05:16] and something like that, and also presented my father-in-law as
[00:05:19] evidence. In
[00:05:22] court, I asked the witness when it was, he
[00:05:25] told me a specific date there, 2011,
[00:05:28] I think, that I
[00:05:32] said, "Judge, I have no more questions for this gentleman."
[00:05:36] The judge says, "Why?" I say, "My father-in-law had been dead for two
[00:05:38] years."
[00:06:59] Andrzej, hail and glory to the heroes,
[00:07:02] good, God keep him safe, thank you, you've suffered
[00:07:05] so much, thank you, I watched all the time,
[00:07:09] all the time I watched on TV what was happening to you. whom
[00:07:42] I did not glorify anyone, but only wrote about heroes.
[00:07:58] I also glorified according
[00:08:01] to the accusation, and in my final statement I
[00:08:04] said
[00:08:05] that
[00:08:18] The regime of Alexander Lukashenka has become a regime that is difficult
[00:08:22] to call authoritarian today, it has increasingly developed totalitarian
[00:08:25] elements in recent years, and a good example of this is that
[00:08:29] for writing even an innocent post on social
[00:08:31] networks, one can end up in prison for many years, not
[00:08:35] a post that would say that Alexander Lukashenka should be president,
[00:08:39] but even one written in Aesopian language, when from...
[00:09:42] to confront his point of view, which he
[00:09:46] wrote down somewhere walking down the street or or or or sitting
[00:09:49] with a beer, well, yes, Alexander Lukashenka doesn't
[00:09:53] like Poles, I feel it, we
[00:09:56] feel it, and this is the core, the core
[00:09:59] of the conflict that we have in Belarus, that
[00:10:03] the Polish minority has with the authorities in Belarus, this
[00:10:07] is the core of our identity, because we are defending our
[00:10:10] identity there, that's all.
[00:10:12] That's all and that's a lot, because as it turns out, suddenly
[00:10:16] it's a great crime to be a Pole in Belarus, to have Polish
[00:10:20] views, to pay homage to Polish
[00:10:22] heroes, to know Polish history. Generally,
[00:10:26] the Belarusian regime destroyed everything that was independent, regardless of
[00:10:29] whether it had red and white or white-red-white colors,
[00:10:33] so inevitably, there have been no independent media in Belarus
[00:10:37] since 2020, there are no independent
[00:10:40] non-governmental organizations, well, inevitably, there is also no independent
[00:10:43] Union of Poles in Belarus. The elections
[00:10:46] in Belarus were falsified.
[00:10:49] 80% of votes for Alexander Lukashenka, that's the result
[00:10:52] of the exit poll, the government one. In
[00:10:55] Belarus, huge crowds of demonstrators are protesting against President
[00:10:58] Alexander Lukashenka and the elections, which they claim he falsified. One can say
[00:11:02] that until 2020, Lukashenka's regime tolerated this
[00:11:06] unofficial activity, but
[00:11:10] the pacified protests, huge social
[00:11:13] protests, led
[00:11:15] to the end of this stage
[00:11:19] in the activity of the Union of Poles, the Polish minority in
[00:11:23] Belarus, part.
[00:11:55] well, I thought, who best fits the
[00:11:58] role of such a villain, who was
[00:12:01] to realize this, well, of course, I concluded
[00:12:05] that in Belarus, the Union of Poles fits best, and accordingly
[00:12:08] me, well, at a time when pro-regime historians in recent years
[00:12:11] are saying that Poland should pay reparations
[00:12:15] to Belarus for the occupation of the territory of present-day Western Belarus in the interwar
[00:12:19] period, if basically in the last two
[00:12:22] or three years we have... a return to
[00:12:25] the Sovietization of the historical policy of the Belarusian
[00:12:28] state, if at this moment a figure
[00:12:31] such as Tadeusz Kościuszko is hidden,
[00:12:35] well, then caring for language, caring for history, caring
[00:12:38] for the memory of even the Second World War, not the Great Patriotic War,
[00:12:42] but the Second World War, caring for the memory
[00:12:46] of the Home Army, well, that
[00:12:49] contradicts the official line of the city at
[00:12:52] this moment, Poczobut...
[00:12:55] became a threat, because he wrote honest texts about the situation
[00:12:58] in Belarus as a correspondent for Gazeta
[00:13:01] Wyborcza, so he was on the regime's radar
[00:13:05] as a person who is suspicious, as a person
[00:13:08] who is unreliable and needs to be watched very carefully, the regime really doesn't
[00:13:12] like people who have strength of spirit, who are
[00:13:15] unbreakable, there are few such people who are unbreakable, who
[00:13:19] are unyielding, Andrzej Poczobut is such a
[00:13:22] person.
[00:13:28] It was early in the morning, my son went to
[00:13:32] school, he didn't close the door behind him, meaning they were
[00:13:35] closed, but not locked,
[00:13:38] and in the morning I wake up, make tea,
[00:13:41] go out, suddenly the door opens, people in balaclavas
[00:13:44] are standing there,
[00:13:47] I say, "Please come in," well, I understood who they were and why
[00:13:51] they came, "Please, please, please come in," no, no, no, not
[00:13:55] that, that there's no camera yet, that they're not prepared, so they just tried to get
[00:13:58] through the door
[00:14:01] to their own surprise they saw that the door was
[00:14:03] open,
[00:14:06] we became neighbors in cells, I remember that, I remember that it was somehow
[00:14:10] around mid- December,
[00:14:13] we sat together through the wall several times, we talked, you talk there
[00:14:17] in a specific way, because you remove the pipe from
[00:14:21] under the
[00:14:23] sink, and you talk into the pipe, and he also took the
[00:14:27] pipe and through that
[00:14:30] there was communication through the wall through
[00:14:33] the siphons, I remember that
[00:14:37] it was Christmas Eve, I think, so on
[00:14:40] Christmas Eve I sang him a carol "Przybieżeli do Betlejem pasterze", it starts
[00:14:43] at 5 AM, they turn on the Belarusian anthem and they turn on the
[00:14:47] light and that's how the day began, and in the
[00:14:50] meantime, three meals.
[00:14:54] In addition to that, there was a
[00:14:57] walk, if I was in a
[00:15:00] cell-type room, meaning in better
[00:15:03] conditions, but if I was in solitary confinement, there was
[00:15:07] no walk at all
[00:15:09] anymore,
[00:15:12] they put me in such a "stakan", I sat in that
[00:15:15] "stakan" for an hour or two, then it was
[00:15:17] there again,
[00:15:20] "stakan" is like, well, a glass, "stakan", like such
[00:15:24] a room, you can only stand there and a little bench
[00:15:27] you can sit a little and there is no peephole only they
[00:15:31] can observe you through that peephole and you sit there you sit in this
[00:15:35] cell, well
[00:15:45] in summer it's muggy, over 40 degrees, and in winter it's zero and
[00:15:48] black walls, no ventilation at all, it
[00:15:52] was terrible, very cold, if they wanted to make
[00:15:55] it even colder, they opened the doors in the building and
[00:15:59] there was a draft or a draft or
[00:16:02] they opened the window opposite the cell and
[00:16:06] again.
[00:17:07] when bending,
[00:17:10] I have shoulder problems, golfer's elbow, I already had
[00:17:13] varicose vein surgery here in freedom, because my varicose veins
[00:17:17] appeared in prison and
[00:17:20] I had my teeth treated now
[00:17:22] too,
[00:17:24] Jerzy Żywolewski, lived in Grodno, recruited in the
[00:17:28] early 2000s by Polish military intelligence,
[00:17:32] operated under the pseudonym Poseidon, how
[00:17:35] were you treated in prison?
[00:17:38] I think the same as other prisoners, I didn't feel
[00:17:41] that I was treated better or worse, the authorities
[00:17:45] treat all prisoners here very well and according to the law
[00:17:48] and it was the same with me, why did you take part in this, you could
[00:17:52] have refused, I couldn't refuse, they threatened you
[00:17:55] that something might happen to your son, yes, yes, yes,
[00:17:58] they showed a picture of my son, that he will cross
[00:18:01] the pedestrian crossing, he won't, he will make it, he won't, this is a systemic
[00:18:05] physical and psychological destruction of people. That is, hard
[00:18:09] work, very difficult conditions, frequent solitary confinement, as in the case
[00:18:12] of Andrzej Poczobut, this is a system, which
[00:18:16] survived from the times of the
[00:18:19] Soviet Union, it may be slightly modernized, here
[00:18:23] I will be a bit ironic, but its purpose
[00:18:27] is still the complete psychological and physical destruction of people who pass
[00:18:30] through this penitentiary
[00:18:31] system.
[00:18:51] Dear Madam Marshal,
[00:18:54] High Chamber, thank you very much for the opportunity
[00:18:58] to speak before you,
[00:19:02] I am very moved on the one hand, because for me
[00:19:06] it is an honor to be able to be in the Senate, on the other hand,
[00:19:09] it is very easy for me to speak, because I know that I am among
[00:19:12] friends, that I am among those on whom one can
[00:19:16] count in difficult times, regardless of
[00:19:19] who currently holds the office of president or prime minister in our country, the
[00:19:23] policy here has been consistent and from
[00:19:26] the moment Andrzej was arrested,
[00:19:29] Poland very clearly said
[00:19:32] that this is an absolute condition
[00:19:36] to even try
[00:19:43] that everything that is happening to Andrzej simply hurts us and we will discuss with
[00:19:46] Mr. Chargé d'Affaires the issue of Andrzej
[00:19:50] Poczobut, who is still in prison.
[00:19:53] The regime in Minsk understood that Andrzej Poczobut was an important bargaining
[00:19:56] chip, that he was political prisoner number one from the
[00:20:00] point of view of his importance for Poland, and that he
[00:20:04] was such an ace up Belarus's sleeve.
[00:20:07] whom it should not dispose of, and it is already too high
[00:20:10] a price, without an attempt to thaw
[00:20:13] relations between the Trump administration and Lukashenka's
[00:20:16] regime, we would probably still be waiting for Poczobut's
[00:20:20] release, several times in the last two or three
[00:20:23] years, even without Trump in the White House, there were
[00:20:26] talks and it was even close to Poczobut's release,
[00:20:30] Lukashenka's regime backed out at the last
[00:20:33] minute, showing even more what importance Poczobut has for
[00:20:37] the
[00:20:37] city,
[00:20:42] on Monday, I sent an SMS, whether everything is confirmed,
[00:20:46] of course, yes, 8:30 at Kaferenna.
[00:20:54] to Białowieża with his
[00:20:58] team, we reached the border guard post in Białowieża,
[00:21:02] then I was transported to that crossing, the inactive crossing
[00:21:06] was completely cut off by Polish
[00:21:09] services here, this was my first contact as a journalist
[00:21:13] with such a large security operation conducted
[00:21:15] by the Polish state, and there the
[00:21:20] machinery was actually incredibly
[00:21:23] perfectly
[00:21:24] prepared,
[00:21:29] when I was led out of the camp and handed over to
[00:21:33] the KGB, to KGB officers who were already transporting me to
[00:21:36] the border, the last officer who was
[00:21:40] to let me out beyond the prison gate, he
[00:21:43] says, "Where are the documents for his
[00:21:46] release, or for his transfer?" They say, "There will be no
[00:21:50] papers." He says, "Well, how will he write
[00:21:53] it?"
[00:21:56] He says, "Write whatever you want, they'll explain it to you later." He says, "Well, they've already taken
[00:21:59] people out, there were always some papers." I say, "There will be no papers here."
[00:22:03] We wait,
[00:22:06] on the other side stand Belarusian border guards,
[00:22:10] some people, suit, dark glasses, stone
[00:22:13] face, they look in our direction and the door opens, a man also
[00:22:17] in a balaclava comes out and leads...
[00:22:21] leads another man by the arm, thin, dressed in a tracksuit,
[00:22:24] in a baseball cap, no question whether it's Andrzej
[00:22:28] Poczobut, the closer he gets, the more sure I am that it's Andrzej
[00:22:31] Poczobut, very emaciated, very, very
[00:22:35] nervous, he walked with some kind of fury.
[00:22:56] I had the opportunity to call the Polish
[00:22:59] embassy in Minsk, which was important to me, I
[00:23:03] told him that around, they told me that I
[00:23:07] would be able to return, if I could return, then I would
[00:23:11] agree to cross to the
[00:23:14] Polish side, the Polish idea was not to exchange
[00:23:18] Andrzej for a spy at all. There was also a Belarusian spy in
[00:23:22] the group of exchanged people, but the point was for Andrzej to be
[00:23:25] exchanged for another prisoner, so that
[00:23:28] there wouldn't be a situation where, since he was exchanged for a spy, he was also a Polish
[00:23:31] spy, so it was decided to pair
[00:23:35] him with that Russian archaeologist, so that no one could
[00:23:39] say he was exchanged for a spy, it was deliberate, I also told the Belarusians
[00:23:42] , this whole bunch, I told them that listen, where have you brought me, I don't
[00:23:46] know anything, who, what, soon there will be the same masked people
[00:23:50] as you, to whom are you handing me over, do you want me to go or
[00:23:53] something, if you want me to go, not for you to drag me, then
[00:23:57] there must be a person I know, I ask him quite
[00:24:00] frightened, not to say more, Andrzej, do you
[00:24:03] recognize me, and he says, of course
[00:24:06] I recognize you, and he comes
[00:24:10] closer and then, well,
[00:24:13] I break down, I fall, I just grab him by the arm,
[00:24:16] yes and Andrzej says:
[00:24:20] "Well, will I be able to return?" This is
[00:24:23] precisely a certain type of heroism, perhaps not entirely understood, especially in
[00:24:27] the modern world, which does not necessarily value
[00:24:29] such values,
[00:24:33] but I have also known Andrzej for quite a long time and I understand him perfectly, what
[00:24:37] it means, on the one hand, of course, there are two wolves in me, one wolf that says that he
[00:24:40] should stay here and it would be much better if he stayed, but this is
[00:24:44] a personal wolf, because I really wouldn't want any
[00:24:48] harm to come to him, and...
[00:24:51] however, from the perspective of the Belarusian state, of which he is a citizen, he feels
[00:24:55] part of it, from the perspective of caring for the interests
[00:24:58] of the Polish minority, from the perspective of thinking that after all,
[00:25:02] if such people cannot act in any way in Belarus,
[00:25:06] then nothing will ever change there, so I don't blame him for wanting to return to his country.
[00:25:30] And please forgive my boldness, Mr. Andrzej, do you really want to return to
[00:25:33] Belarus? I will return,
[00:25:37] I will return, I just think there are chances that they won't arrest me,
[00:25:40] at least not right away, and maybe, well, nobody knows what will happen,
[00:25:44] really, the fact that the Belarusian authorities know
[00:25:47] exactly that, firstly, I didn't ask for it,
[00:26:25] good day, Mr. President, I have already had the honor of being here, if you
[00:26:28] remember, once, I already have amnesia,
[00:26:50] I cordially welcome you, I am very happy
[00:26:53] that you still remember me, I admire
[00:26:55] you, but I also have some remarks, please don't
[00:26:59] be offended, of course, because I wish you success.
[00:27:04] it's just that to achieve success,
[00:27:07] you also need to conserve yourself, you
[00:27:09] must have a concept, do you want to win, or do you want to
[00:27:13] let others win, you have already
[00:27:16] built a good reputation, you have great trust
[00:27:20] and you cannot lose that, you must
[00:27:23] lead to victory, this is
[00:27:25] our hero Andrzej Poczobut, our unyielding Andrzej
[00:27:29] Poczobut. He is a calm
[00:27:33] man, stoic, but he knows
[00:27:36] his goal, he motivates himself to his cell and I
[00:27:40] think he is still, he was left in
[00:27:43] 2021, he is slowly moving forward and
[00:27:46] we need to make sure he reaches 25,
[00:27:50] 26, and then he can make a decision, I would say that
[00:27:54] to him.
[00:28:07] "I have duties towards people, meaning no one pushes anyone forward,
[00:28:11] please understand that the people who followed
[00:28:14] us, the Union of Poles, from 2005, they are paying the price for it and
[00:28:18] have already paid a high price and will still
[00:28:21] pay, one simply does not have the moral right
[00:28:25] to abandon them, well, that's
[00:28:28] the truth, that it's not one
[00:28:31] person, two people.
[00:29:32] you survived, Andrzej, we are all truly rooting
[00:29:35] for you, stay healthy, don't give up,
[00:29:38] recover, I hope you have
[00:29:41] the support of all of us,
[00:29:43] right?
[00:29:48] Yes, I would like to dedicate, but I would like to dedicate,
[00:29:52] increasingly
[00:29:53] stranger,
[00:30:00] completely,
[00:30:35] more about family, about loved ones, here at this moment I often dream of
[00:30:39] prison, sometimes prison, sometimes that apparatus
[00:30:43] that there's something somewhere I have difficulties in that
[00:30:46] country of Belarus, as if I were there, that
[00:30:50] I am being detained and something bad is happening to me, I often
[00:30:54] do,
[00:31:00] it is totalitarianism.
[00:31:53] I am a journalist, I have been working for over 20 years, the only thing I
[00:31:57] have is my word, that has always been very important to me,
[00:32:01] if I write something and do something, well, that means I believe in it,
[00:32:06] here the conditions are changing, suddenly I have to change what
[00:32:09] I said, change my opinion, demonstrate subservience to
[00:32:13] the fact that it is
[00:32:45] it was spring too, how are you feeling? I feel very
[00:32:48] good, you have regained some strength after these five years
[00:32:52] in prison during these five months that have passed since your release,
[00:32:55] I think it's even visible, yes,
[00:32:59] that change is indeed visible, we are very happy about that. Mr. Andrzej, it's
[00:33:03] somewhat as you announced in the report, you returned to
[00:33:06] Belarus, but it's also somewhat different, because it turned out that
[00:33:09] after a short stay in Belarus, you returned to
[00:33:13] Poland, does that mean your plans...
[00:33:24] My plans haven't changed, it's about a trip to the United
[00:33:28] States, simply, various organizational
[00:33:31] matters had to be settled, it
[00:33:34] required me to be present
[00:33:37] in Warsaw, and that caused a faster
[00:33:41] departure than was planned, so you...
[00:33:57] Of course, there are various issues,
[00:34:00] which means, well, you know, I'm writing
[00:34:04] a book and I will be working on the book, and that's what I'll
[00:34:07] focus on after returning from the United States, that's
[00:34:11] actually the most important thing I want to do now.
[00:34:15] Can you reveal what the book will be about, or my story? Well,
[00:34:18] it's natural that there's an internal need
[00:34:22] to tell this story from beginning to
[00:34:25] end, it's about even the longest interview
[00:34:29] doesn't allow you to tell everything that happened during those
[00:34:33] five years, and a book is a
[00:34:36] form that allows you to do that, and what about
[00:34:39] the idea of returning to Belarus, your family, what about
[00:34:43] your wife, what about your parents? What about the children too? Well,
[00:34:47] certainly there were no
[00:34:49] enthusiasts
[00:34:52] among my loved ones for this idea
[00:34:55] of mine, but everyone also
[00:34:59] accepted it, it is natural that no one
[00:35:02] wants someone, for a loved one, to be in a dangerous
[00:35:06] situation, but I just want to remind you that in Belarus,
[00:35:10] hundreds of thousands of Poles are in such a situation, all the activists of the Union
[00:35:14] of Poles who continue their activity in
[00:35:17] Belarus, so my situation, my return is not
[00:35:21] something so exceptional. The authorities
[00:35:24] of Belarus guaranteed you that you would be
[00:35:27] able to return to Belarus, but they didn't guarantee that you would
[00:35:30] have peace, that you would be able to resume your former activity,
[00:35:34] how did they react to your return? Well,
[00:35:38] they reacted as the Belarusian authorities react,
[00:35:42] well, when I handed over my passport for
[00:35:45] inspection, of course, I understand that all the red
[00:35:49] lights went on, I was summoned for an interview
[00:35:52] by a border guard officer, well, they tried
[00:35:56] to get me to unlock my phone,
[00:35:59] so they would have access to the content on my phone, well, I
[00:36:03] didn't agree, but it wasn't any special
[00:36:07] pressure or anything special, this
[00:36:10] whole conversation lasted about
[00:36:13] 10 minutes, the officer came in, went out,
[00:36:16] answered, answered cell
[00:36:19] phones, and then I was told that I could go, so I
[00:36:22] went, and then, during my stay, did anyone else contact
[00:36:26] you, or? Yes, when
[00:36:28] I returned home, literally after five
[00:36:31] minutes, an officer appeared, well-informed,
[00:36:34] a major, with a recorder on, and who,
[00:36:38] what, where, when, why, such a
[00:36:41] kind of questions,
[00:36:44] later, like, he told me it was routine and that he
[00:36:48] checks everyone who lives in this
[00:36:51] class, but before, when you lived there, were there such
[00:36:55] routine checks, for someone to check no,
[00:36:58] absolutely not After, I mean,
[00:37:02] I said goodbye to him, after a few minutes he came back, this
[00:37:05] time he didn't have the recorder on and said that at 12:00 PM on
[00:37:09] Thursday, the conversation was on Tuesday, I was to report to the police
[00:37:13] station, as a person who is sentenced in Belarus,
[00:37:15] well, I have a duty within, I think, five
[00:37:19] years, regularly, if the services
[00:37:23] call, to report to the
[00:37:25] call and give
[00:37:37] on Wednesday I visited the Consulate General in Grodno, and when I left the consulate, my wife
[00:37:41] called, that the police had called
[00:37:44] home, saying that there was no need for me to come
[00:37:48] anymore, aren't you afraid that now the Belarusian authorities will decide
[00:37:52] that they have actually fulfilled this promise,
[00:37:55] they have fulfilled it, and let you into
[00:37:58] the country, so this agreement with the Polish side,
[00:38:02] with the American side, has been realized, but it was said
[00:38:06] that they would let you in, but it was not said how many times
[00:38:09] they would let you in, that there would simply not be another time, that now you will get a travel
[00:38:13] ban, I mean, I don't know how the Belarusian authorities will behave, I think
[00:38:17] that the Belarusian authorities also don't really know how they will behave, because
[00:38:21] the situation is dynamic, we see that the war
[00:38:24] in Ukraine is still going on, which affects the entire region. In addition,
[00:38:28] on September 16, as a result of negotiations with the
[00:38:31] Lukashenko regime, which are being conducted by President
[00:38:35] Trump's administration, 25 political
[00:38:38] prisoners were released, there are different signals, there are different
[00:38:41] versions of how the fate of Belarus will unfold
[00:38:44] generally, because this situation should be considered in such
[00:38:48] categories, and of course, but you were leaving among other things because
[00:38:52] the Congress of the Union of Poles in Belarus was supposed
[00:38:55] to take place, it was canceled and as reported. Well, officially it was canceled for
[00:38:59] security reasons, so I understand that the
[00:39:02] union was not entirely sure that the members
[00:39:05] well could safely come to
[00:39:09] this, I mean, generally, the union was absolutely sure that
[00:39:12] it would not be safe if
[00:39:16] the congress took place, but the authorities
[00:39:19] saw that my arrival does not pose any
[00:39:23] threat to the system of power within Belarus, that
[00:39:26] trade unionists... it's not about
[00:39:29] political struggle, it's about Polishness, it's about learning the Polish language,
[00:39:33] it's about, it's about the development of Polish culture, caring
[00:39:37] for places of national memory, and that's it, well,
[00:39:40] from more or less 22 at the turn
[00:39:43] of 23, this space of freedom, which
[00:39:46] the Union of Poles fought for, well, it is static and
[00:39:50] it does not decrease, and during this stay, did you meet
[00:39:54] with activists of the Belarusian Polonia? What
[00:39:58] are their moods and whether this information that
[00:40:01] you are not staying permanently
[00:40:05] in some way, well, did it make them sad or happy, or would they prefer you to have
[00:40:09] returned permanently? I mean, people interpreted, I mean,
[00:40:12] Poles in Belarus interpreted my
[00:40:15] visit as such a positive signal that
[00:40:18] the situation could improve and it was
[00:40:22] interpreted that way, well, everyone understood that this
[00:40:25] visit would not have been...
[00:40:27] possible if the authorities had planned some kind of harsh
[00:40:31] minority, so such rather
[00:40:35] optimistic moods are prevailing at the moment, meaning
[00:40:38] moderate optimism, because there are so many unknowns, we don't
[00:40:42] know if Russia will carry out mobilization, we don't know if
[00:40:45] Russia will want to use the territory of Belarus for the war
[00:40:49] against Ukraine, we don't know if the territory of Belarus will not be used for
[00:40:52] provocations against neighbors and so
[00:40:56] on, there are many unknowns. But along with that, this signal is not being underestimated
[00:40:59] by the Polish minority, how would that affect
[00:41:03] the situation of Poles, if such an escalation of the conflict were to occur, if
[00:41:07] Belarus were to openly become a party to this conflict? I mean,
[00:41:10] if this war generally negatively affects
[00:41:13] the internal situation of the country, by intensifying repression,
[00:41:17] strengthening security services and in turn, from the
[00:41:20] West, Belarus is also viewed as an ally of
[00:41:24] Russia, which Belarus factually is.
[00:41:27] The situation is perceived primarily in terms of security
[00:41:31] and threat, well, that is something
[00:41:34] that negatively affects the situation of
[00:41:37] the Polish minority. Currently, there are still
[00:41:41] about 800 or 900
[00:41:44] prisoners recognized as political prisoners in Belarus, well, these
[00:41:48] are not Polonia activists, but still Belarusian
[00:41:51] citizens are in prisons, do such actions, which
[00:41:55] also took place in your defense here in Poland, support actions,
[00:41:59] expressions of, well,
[00:42:01] appreciation for what you do, coming from Poland, from other
[00:42:05] countries, do they help prisoners? Generally, Poles in Belarus don't
[00:42:09] like Polonia, because Polonia are people who
[00:42:13] left, no one left us, they stayed on
[00:42:16] their land here, the Polish border left, as they say,
[00:42:19] so that's that, a if it comes to political
[00:42:23] prisoners, their number is much higher, when I was in the camp,
[00:42:27] well, I saw dozens of people who are not
[00:42:30] on any lists of human rights
[00:42:33] defenders, the point is that families were afraid
[00:42:36] that publicizing their cases
[00:42:40] would negatively affect the situation of the imprisoned person, meaning
[00:42:44] they would have it worse in the camp, and the situation
[00:42:48] of the family itself, so this number of
[00:42:51] 800-900 is very arbitrary, in my opinion,
[00:42:55] in addition, such a very
[00:42:58] dangerous tendency is
[00:43:01] the fact that negotiations are ongoing and it's very
[00:43:05] good that Americans have managed in these five years, only Americans
[00:43:08] have managed to lead to
[00:43:11] the release of political prisoners, it's very
[00:43:15] good that this is happening, but at the same time, arrests are ongoing
[00:43:18] and some are released, others are imprisoned
[00:43:22] and this level of fear in society is still maintained,
[00:43:25] this is a great challenge that stands before
[00:43:29] these diplomats who are conducting dialogue with Lukashenka, so that this
[00:43:32] situation improves within Belarus, and
[00:43:36] aren't you afraid that the consequences of your future actions? Scars
[00:43:40] somewhere deep down, well, they
[00:43:51] are there, but the essence of the matter, well,
[00:43:54] one can never rule out a black
[00:43:57] scenario, but, well, there are also
[00:44:00] reasons to believe that not necessarily
[00:44:03] everything has to develop precisely in the direction of repression and
[00:44:06] in the direction of worsening the situation, the point is that
[00:44:10] the Lukashenka regime showed a certain cyclical behavior,
[00:44:14] meaning, when he felt threatened, then
[00:44:17] repression was strengthened, there was greater pressure, people were put in
[00:44:20] prisons, and then the opinion of the West played no role for
[00:44:24] Lukashenka, but when the situation was stable,
[00:44:27] talking to the Americans, Lukashenka boasted that the situation was stable and
[00:44:31] that he fully controlled the situation inside Belarus, that's true, well, I
[00:44:35] was in Belarus, I saw it and felt that the situation
[00:44:38] was completely under control. by the regime, well,
[00:44:42] in this situation, the economy comes
[00:44:45] to the fore, and the regime of Alexander Lukashenka is
[00:44:49] interested in economic cooperation with the West,
[00:44:52] which in turn forces
[00:44:55] such, well, understanding or a more careful
[00:44:58] approach to these
[00:45:01] issues that are important to the West, but again
[00:45:04] you avoided global issues, you avoided
[00:45:08] the question about yourself, do you currently
[00:45:12] still return to what happened
[00:45:15] in prison, does it still come back in nightmares?
[00:45:18] I mean, when I crossed the border and found myself
[00:45:22] in a room with three gloomy gentlemen, it seemed to me for
[00:45:26] a moment that those 130 something
[00:45:29] days I was free, that it was all a
[00:45:32] dream, that I was still where I
[00:45:35] was, so undoubtedly this
[00:45:39] state
[00:45:48] We wish you then that this dream of freedom lasts as long as possible, and that those
[00:45:51] nightmares never return. Thank you very much for
[00:45:54] the conversation. Thank you. And I encourage you to watch the next
[00:45:58] episodes.