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[00:00:30] perpetrators. time for
[00:00:35] Dzień dobry, Dominika Sitnicka, zapraszam państwa bardzo serdecznie na program
[00:00:39] Counterpoint program, and today we will cover
[00:00:42] the following topics:
[00:00:45] he planned an assassination attempt on the prime minister and the minister of national defense.
[00:00:48] The 66-year-old faces up to 15 years
[00:00:51] in prison. Zelensky under pressure
[00:00:55] from Trump. The Kremlin reacts to the words of the US
[00:00:57] president.
[00:01:00] New findings of the investigative committee on Pegasus, full access to
[00:01:04] operational data was only available to the Israeli
[00:01:06] company. And my guest and yours is Andrzej
[00:01:10] Mroczek, Center for Terrorism Research at Sivitas University, former policeman. Good morning.
[00:01:13] Good morning, good evening everyone.
[00:01:17] We already mentioned that yesterday a 66-year-old
[00:01:20] man was arrested. The arrest took place in Lower
[00:01:23] Silesia, and it seems that charges have not
[00:01:27] yet been filed against this man, but the
[00:01:30] reports from the services indicate that he
[00:01:33] was threatening the prime minister and deputy prime minister
[00:01:35] and even planning an assassination attempt, so I would
[00:01:41] here, do we have any evidence that ask first, because yesterday the sequence of events was also quite specific, because first
[00:01:44] we learned in the morning from the spokesperson of the Ministry of Interior,
[00:01:47] that there would be a briefing of the services on this matter, then that briefing
[00:01:51] took place, a briefing, and only then was there information about the arrest
[00:01:54] of the man, how, in your opinion,
[00:01:57] did this sequence unfold, was there anything in it?
[00:02:02] From my perspective, there was nothing
[00:02:06] strange about it, for a simple reason, because
[00:02:11] the chief of police said at I have experience in operational work
[00:02:13] in the past, working in the department for combating criminal terror and
[00:02:17] murder, which is, by the way, handling this
[00:02:18] case,
[00:02:21] there were situations where various politicians, even
[00:02:25] heads of state, were also targeted
[00:02:28] by various threats. this is nothing
[00:02:32] special, however, it certainly deserves
[00:02:35] greater
[00:02:38] attention that
[00:02:40] the police themselves or
[00:02:42] the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Administration
[00:02:46] emphasized that this is a very serious
[00:02:49] matter, meaning the stage, one can infer that
[00:02:53] the stage of preparations for planning
[00:02:56] the assassination was already at an advanced
[00:02:59] level, regarding this informational
[00:03:05] reports, analyses, it turns out message, well, honestly, yes, the police,
[00:03:08] not only the police, but also the services, use various
[00:03:12] methods of operational work, I will not
[00:03:15] go into the details and I will not inform you, but
[00:03:18] please believe me, these operational work methods
[00:03:22] are designed to, among other things,
[00:03:26] confirm and
[00:03:29] verify
[00:03:32] various behaviors, for this, various
[00:03:35] tools are used, in this case, for example,
[00:03:39] media, so I understand that announcing that there is
[00:03:42] such a signal, that the services received such information, could
[00:03:46] have been used to lure this person
[00:03:50] the privacy of citizens. Due to out, I will not go deep into it, but this
[00:03:53] is
[00:03:56] operational work, these are complex methods of operational work.
[00:04:00] which, among other things, use various
[00:04:03] tools, when
[00:04:06] information appeared in the media,
[00:04:09] that this man
[00:04:13] was politically motivated in planning
[00:04:16] you rightly pointed out at this attack, this
[00:04:19] already constitutes
[00:04:22] the hallmarks of a terrorist
[00:04:26] do these individual act, this is terrorism, because here we are dealing with...
[00:05:25] I'm sure you all remember the burning of the Starling station in September,
[00:05:28] on September 23 in Wola
[00:05:31] Korbowska.
[00:05:34] Already then we said that it was a sabotage
[00:05:37] action, a diversionary action, that we were dealing with arson.
[00:05:41] Today, after
[00:05:44] hard work by the Polish police, the Central Bureau
[00:05:47] of Police Investigation, the Internal Security
[00:05:50] Agency, in cooperation with the prosecution,
[00:05:54] in Germany,
[00:05:58] two Turkish citizens
[00:06:01] were arrested, who are responsible
[00:06:04] for this act of terror, who are responsible for
[00:06:07] this arson. The activities
[00:06:10] were carried out by the German Federal
[00:06:14] Criminal Office BKA on the basis
[00:06:17] of materials collected,
[00:06:20] prepared by the Polish police in
[00:06:24] cooperation with the Internal Security
[00:06:27] Agency.
[00:06:30] It is no secret that
[00:06:33] these individuals, after being transferred to Poland, will be charged
[00:06:37] with sabotage and diversion at the behest
[00:06:40] of foreign intelligence. Minister, ladies
[00:06:44] and gentlemen, thank you very much for this
[00:06:47] cooperation, indeed,
[00:06:50] this is another time that the police and the Internal Security
[00:06:53] Agency show that when
[00:06:56] they combine their forces, they apprehend these
[00:06:59] individuals who are suspects, and then
[00:07:02] they face Polish courts, I would like to emphasize the great
[00:07:06] work of the prosecutor's office, especially in recent days, we particularly thank the national
[00:07:09] prosecutor Dariusz Korneluk.
[00:07:12] because preparing all the documents required
[00:07:15] extraordinary action here, ladies
[00:07:19] and gentlemen, we have no doubt that
[00:07:22] Russian services
[00:07:26] are behind this act of diversion,
[00:07:28] and it is worth adding that Russian
[00:07:31] services are increasingly reaching for people
[00:07:35] associated with the criminal world,
[00:07:37] they never reach for their own citizens, we had dozens
[00:07:41] of Ukrainian citizens
[00:07:45] who were suspected, arrested, tried,
[00:07:48] expelled, were involved in acts
[00:07:51] of diversion in Poland, but we also
[00:07:53] had citizens of Colombia, citizens of other countries, this time we are dealing
[00:07:57] with commissioning such actions
[00:08:00] to Turkish citizens, I would like to emphasize
[00:08:03] that this work of the police and Internal Security Agency
[00:08:07] was incredibly laborious, incredibly
[00:08:10] demanding to open up all the details,
[00:08:13] let this achievement of our services also
[00:08:17] be a very strong warning to all those
[00:08:20] who are thinking of being commissioned
[00:08:23] to carry out such an act of diversion or an act
[00:08:27] of sabotage, we have excellent
[00:08:31] police, excellent officers in the Internal Security Agency,
[00:08:34] who can get to the bottom
[00:08:37] of every such situation, I will also remind you of the case
[00:08:41] of the Russian murder...
[00:08:44] the perpetrator connected with the criminal world was found,
[00:08:48] he is in custody, in various
[00:08:51] other situations, even if the perpetrators managed
[00:08:54] to escape from Poland, as in the case of diversionary acts near
[00:08:58] Garwolin, the perpetrators were identified and
[00:09:01] will be pursued until successful by our
[00:09:04] authorities around the world,
[00:09:08] so I want to emphasize, Minister Marcin
[00:09:11] spoke about this. very good cooperation with our
[00:09:14] partners, it is in various fields, with
[00:09:18] the German federal police, specifically with the BKA, and also with the German
[00:09:21] services, here our
[00:09:24] German partners showed that they can act swiftly
[00:09:27] and precisely, and for that I thank them, now, of course,
[00:09:31] the extradition procedure, we count on it with the minister, with the commander,
[00:09:35] that very quickly they will be
[00:09:38] in our hands, in Polish detention centers, and will be tried by...
[00:10:12] specific action, all of this was done by a special group
[00:10:16] that was then appointed
[00:10:19] to fully identify
[00:10:22] the perpetrators who committed this act
[00:10:26] of sabotage and diversion.
[00:10:29] I would like to thank the officers of the Central Bureau of Police Investigation, the Central Bureau
[00:10:32] for Combating Cybercrime, the officers of the provincial police in
[00:10:36] Kielce, and the officers of the Internal Security
[00:10:40] Agency who worked on this case from the very beginning.
[00:10:43] For us, this was an important case, and the group
[00:10:47] worked relentlessly until
[00:10:50] we found concrete
[00:10:53] evidence that
[00:10:55] this act of diversion
[00:10:57] was committed. Here, very good cooperation with the National Public Prosecutor's Office, with
[00:11:01] the Mazovian branch,
[00:11:04] allowed us not only to
[00:11:08] gather evidence, but also to apply to the court
[00:11:11] for the arrest of these two perpetrators,
[00:11:14] Turkish citizens. One of these perpetrators is
[00:11:18] a resident in Germany, the second
[00:11:22] person, also of Turkish nationality, who
[00:11:25] now has an order to leave Turkey, but in
[00:11:28] connection with being detained, I hope that she will be very quickly
[00:11:32] handed over to the Polish authorities to answer
[00:11:36] for the specific act
[00:11:38] in Poland that occurred. Ladies and gentlemen, all
[00:11:42] these actions that we carried out here in
[00:11:46] cooperation with the Internal Security Agency could be
[00:11:49] further appropriately prepared
[00:11:53] thanks to.
[00:11:57] officers of the Polish police and German police at Europol,
[00:12:01] the German police were involved in this,
[00:12:04] i.e. BKA and four federal states, which also took
[00:12:08] part in this arrest
[00:12:10] and of course the European
[00:12:13] Public Prosecutor's Office Eurojust, that is why all the evidence that we have
[00:12:17] gathered today clearly points to a concrete
[00:12:21] act of diversion, we have recordings. We have
[00:12:25] fingerprints, we have the DNA
[00:12:28] of the perpetrators, we know how they moved, we know when they
[00:12:32] arrived in Poland and we know when they were
[00:12:36] evacuated from Poland, as the ministers said,
[00:12:39] what matters here is
[00:12:41] who commits this act on whose
[00:12:45] orders. We have been dealing with these acts of sabotage and diversion
[00:12:48] since 2024. We have
[00:12:52] the burning of large stores, then what
[00:12:55] happened in Micy near Garwolin, when
[00:12:59] the perpetrators blew up
[00:13:02] a train, railway infrastructure, then
[00:13:05] this year we have acts
[00:13:08] of diversion in the form of arson in specific
[00:13:11] places and factories. Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, as
[00:13:14] you can see, this was a very intensive and laborious
[00:13:18] work and required the involvement of our
[00:13:21] European partners and
[00:13:25] our services, our police, internal security
[00:13:28] agencies, last week, because
[00:13:31] this is what we said, but we want it to be clear,
[00:13:34] arrest warrants were issued for both
[00:13:38] these individuals, European arrest warrants, and they
[00:13:42] were the basis for this arrest today, I want to emphasize
[00:13:45] very clearly once again that all materials
[00:13:49] concerning this arrest
[00:13:51] were prepared...
[00:14:11] or, as I understand, regarding the perpetration, there is no doubt based on
[00:14:15] monitoring and fingerprints and other traces,
[00:14:18] and regarding the order, is there evidence that it was
[00:14:21] a commissioned action and if so, by
[00:14:24] whom? How will you be able to
[00:14:27] prove that? As Minister Tomasz Siemoniak said,
[00:14:30] we are waiting and counting on the very rapid
[00:14:33] transfer of both these individuals to Poland, then
[00:14:37] we will, of course, conduct procedural actions with them,
[00:14:40] we have no doubt that it was,
[00:14:43] and the classification, as far as the charges
[00:14:46] are concerned, shows that
[00:14:50] there is no doubt that it was a commission
[00:14:53] by foreign services,
[00:14:56] Russian, but we are still waiting to complete our
[00:15:00] procedural actions, as part
[00:15:03] of the classification, these individuals will be charged
[00:15:06] with sabotage, acts of diversion, and acting on behalf of foreign
[00:15:10] intelligence.
[00:15:11] We will ask for the next question. Good evening,
[00:15:14] Karolina Nocek, TVP info, I just wanted to ask if there is a chance
[00:15:18] for clarification, when exactly we could expect
[00:15:22] that... Well, according to the applicable
[00:15:28] regulations, from the time of arrest, the German court has
[00:15:32] 48 hours to decide whether they will be
[00:15:36] arrested in Germany, then
[00:15:39] 90 days to decide whether there will be extradition or no
[00:15:42] extradition, so here,
[00:15:46] as such regulations exist in Poland and in most countries,
[00:15:50] so, but of course, as we said here, the minister, the commander,
[00:15:54] we have a sense of very strong evidence in
[00:15:58] this case and we believe that the procedure will
[00:16:01] proceed in such a way that
[00:16:04] the suspects will quickly find themselves in Poland, sir...
[00:16:07] the minister has probably covered everything, the court has
[00:16:11] 40 to 90 days to indeed
[00:16:14] issue or otherwise respond
[00:16:17] to whether these citizens
[00:16:20] will be handed over to the Polish side. Thank you. Michał Dzieliński, Radio
[00:16:24] Z, good evening, I wanted to ask if it only concerns two people, or if this group could
[00:16:27] be larger, and if you could also clarify, these two
[00:16:31] people, one of them had already been banned from
[00:16:35] staying in Germany.
[00:16:51] One of these Turkish citizens was a resident in Germany, the other, because he did not obtain that status, was to be
[00:16:54] expelled from Germany and both of them lived in Germany, yes, they came
[00:16:58] to Poland for this action and
[00:17:00] left, of course, yes, these are
[00:17:04] Turkish citizens who reside in the area.
[00:17:37] in 2024, one of these coordinators is in our
[00:17:41] hands, he is in custody in Poland, one who commissioned, yes,
[00:17:44] however, in this case, we are talking about those who
[00:17:47] were directly involved in this action and we have
[00:17:51] justified, highly probable suspicions that
[00:17:55] there were more of these people, however, the direct
[00:17:58] perpetrators in terms of the arson, these are
[00:18:01] precisely these two Turkish citizens arrested
[00:18:05] today. I will ask again.
[00:18:09] Do you confirm that these were men, what
[00:18:13] was their age, and what could they face for the charges mentioned
[00:18:17] here? Well, we confirm
[00:18:19] that they were men of age, we will
[00:18:22] not say anything here, but please
[00:18:26] refer to Article 130 of the Penal Code,
[00:18:30] which speaks of cooperation with a foreign service or acting on its
[00:18:33] behalf,
[00:18:35] the court will operate within these frameworks, but
[00:18:38] of course, as we
[00:18:41] stand here, we know that first the German court, then
[00:18:45] the Polish court will decide on guilt, so then
[00:18:47] it will assess
[00:18:51] whether it will be the maximum sentence or some other,
[00:18:55] they are very much threatened with high penalties, of course,
[00:18:59] crimes under Article 130, they
[00:19:01] were, so that you too, Minister Tomasz Siemoniak
[00:19:05] said that the case is still developing, but these
[00:19:08] two are the people who physically came to Poland
[00:19:12] to carry out this act of terror,
[00:19:16] the documents that were collected by the police and the internal security
[00:19:19] agency are very strong and solid in this
[00:19:22] regard, when it comes to securing this
[00:19:25] type of commercial, yes, but has
[00:19:29] and in what way that security
[00:19:31] changed, Mr.
[00:19:34] Editor, this is a facility
[00:19:37] leased by a company, but it does not
[00:19:41] matter, it is infrastructure that
[00:19:43] serves the security of Poland, but also strengthens fighting
[00:19:47] Ukraine, so we are also talking to
[00:19:51] all critical infrastructure operators about strengthening
[00:19:54] the protection of these facilities,
[00:19:58] and I think that gradually these facilities are increasingly better
[00:20:02] protected, but probably due to the activity, the hostile
[00:20:05] activity of people.
[00:20:38] which I, which I supervise, namely the Central Investigation Bureau, the Central
[00:20:41] Bureau for Combating Cybercrime, but also officers of the Internal
[00:20:45] Security Agency, because it allowed us to
[00:20:49] indeed.
[00:21:06] and today we have the finale of this event, which is the arrest of these perpetrators in
[00:21:09] Germany, now searches are still underway
[00:21:12] in the homes and places of residence of these
[00:21:16] very
[00:21:20] us,
[00:21:29] so that we can work well and
[00:21:32] then we are able to
[00:21:35] carry out these specific cases in such a unique
[00:21:38] way, so important today from the point of view of overall
[00:21:41] security in Europe, thank you
[00:21:44] very much, we are ending today's conference, see
[00:21:46] you.
[00:21:50] and with me in the studio is Andrzej Mroczek, Center for Terrorism Research at
[00:21:54] Sivitas University, well, exactly, these two
[00:21:56] men were apprehended, who committed the arson of the
[00:22:00] Starling station, also, as we heard a moment
[00:22:03] ago during the conference, well,
[00:22:06] everything indicates that there were more people involved in this, but
[00:22:09] the services also have no doubt that it was commissioned by Russia,
[00:22:13] I understand that when the proceedings with these
[00:22:16] people begin, then there is also a chance to
[00:22:19] get to the bottom of this commission, first
[00:22:23] of all, I take my hat off
[00:22:26] and congratulate all colleagues, officers for
[00:22:30] truly hard work, because it was in a short
[00:22:32] period, they gathered sufficient evidence
[00:22:36] to verify this evidence
[00:22:39] in order to identify these direct
[00:22:43] perpetrators, as well as to link it, because it is, of course, international cooperation, without
[00:22:47] which there would be nothing
[00:22:50] of what we just
[00:22:53] heard, it should also be
[00:22:57] taken into account that, as
[00:23:01] the end, that currently activities related
[00:23:03] to searches of places,
[00:23:06] known places in Germany, are underway, a phenomenon
[00:23:10] that was, by the way, predictable
[00:23:13] when it comes to potential perpetrators who
[00:23:17] come to Poland, stay for a short time,
[00:23:21] leave, which means they think they
[00:23:24] will go unpunished because they are not in Poland, which
[00:23:28] is a big mistake on their part,
[00:23:31] of course,
[00:23:34] this is also a lesson and has a preventive
[00:23:37] effect, but I'm getting to the point
[00:23:40] that criminal
[00:23:43] circles, in Germany there is a very large
[00:23:46] Turkish diaspora, criminal
[00:23:49] circles. Germany, by the way, has a very big, serious problem
[00:23:52] with organized Turkish crime on its
[00:23:55] territory, these criminal
[00:23:58] environments of organized criminal
[00:24:02] groups have the characteristic that they don't really care
[00:24:06] who they get money from,
[00:24:08] that is, the commission, especially if there are still some
[00:24:12] intermediaries, they use liaisons, so
[00:24:15] they don't really know, they could have
[00:24:18] guessed, if they... go and have a specific
[00:24:22] goal to commit an act of terror
[00:24:25] against a specific target, well, well,
[00:24:28] they should then, if they realized, they should withdraw,
[00:24:32] if they realized that
[00:24:35] they were acting on behalf of some services, since they did not
[00:24:39] withdraw, it means they were aware that they were acting on behalf of other
[00:24:43] services, of course, here both
[00:24:46] the prosecutor's office and the police or the security agency...
[00:24:50] certainly possesses even more materials, which
[00:24:54] we will learn about in the near future, when the proceedings
[00:24:57] against these
[00:25:00] arrested men are concluded,
[00:25:03] and as
[00:25:06] the very beginning of the question, these two
[00:25:10] people also certainly
[00:25:13] participated in this with other
[00:25:16] people, perhaps from the same environment from which the
[00:25:20] direct perpetrators come, but this also
[00:25:23] shows how effective
[00:25:27] our services are, because I am truly full of admiration, despite
[00:25:31] all these events
[00:25:34] that we experience
[00:25:37] in Poland, which are largely
[00:25:41] initiated, not all, but largely initiated, I am talking about acts
[00:25:45] of terror by the Russian
[00:25:48] Federation, well, this shows.
[00:25:55] that the inevitability of punishment will meet everyone, thank you very much for this conversation, my guest
[00:25:58] and yours was Andrzej Mroczek from the Center for Terrorism Research at the University.
[00:26:09] I believe Ukraine should hold elections. Zelensky could have
[00:26:12] ended this war many times over, he should call elections. He
[00:26:16] also cannot raise oil prices. He has enough already. This war
[00:26:20] should never have started. A war between
[00:26:22] Ukraine and Russia should never have
[00:26:24] happened.
[00:26:34] President Trump stated that Ukraine needs a new president, first of all,
[00:26:37] with all due respect to President Trump, our society, our nation
[00:26:41] decides on the choice of this or that leader. Yes, we are fighting
[00:26:45] a war, and holding elections is really difficult, moreover, it is not
[00:26:48] safe at all and goes beyond the current legal and
[00:26:51] constitutional framework. I proposed the following solution: tell
[00:26:55] Putin to give us 60 days of a complete ceasefire, within
[00:26:59] these two months we will organize elections. If that happens.
[00:27:02] we will, of course, be ready to accept any decision
[00:27:05] made by the Ukrainian
[00:27:07] nation.
[00:27:09] And with me in the studio is Magdalena Górnicka-Partyka, author of the book "What after
[00:27:13] Trump: America at a Crossroads." Good morning. Good morning. And on the line with
[00:27:17] us is also Mariusz Marszałkowski, deputy editor-in-chief of Defense
[00:27:20] 24. Good morning. Good
[00:27:23] morning, welcome. This is probably the biggest, well,
[00:27:27] the biggest news of this weekend, that is, what Donald Trump announced
[00:27:30] on Friday, namely. the agreement with Russia regarding
[00:27:34] the purchase of diesel fuel, first
[00:27:38] I would like to ask you what is really going on
[00:27:43] the amount of diesel fuel that Donald
[00:27:46] Trump is to buy from Russia, it will significantly
[00:27:50] affect how these prices will look,
[00:27:53] because this whole story doesn't quite add up here, because the United
[00:27:57] States is after all the largest exporter of diesel fuel, Russia
[00:28:01] itself has its own internal problems.
[00:28:03] It is difficult to unravel this situation, what is
[00:28:06] going on, Magdalena Górnicka- Partyka? If you don't know what it's about, it's about
[00:28:10] the upcoming midterm elections, which are already on November 3rd, and Donald Trump is doing
[00:28:14] everything to ensure that Republicans don't lose, or that they lose as little as possible,
[00:28:17] when it comes to these elections, and Americans are fed up with high
[00:28:21] prices of gasoline, diesel fuel, and Donald Trump has to
[00:28:24] put on such a political show, in which he shows voters that he has an idea how to deal with
[00:28:27] this, how to fight these high prices, well, the idea
[00:28:30] is an agreement with Russia. 65% of Americans, according to an Associated
[00:28:34] Press poll, believe that Donald Trump is behind the fact
[00:28:37] that the cost of living has increased, that it is getting more expensive, and it is clear that
[00:28:41] the American president does not really have an idea how to get out of this, and he needs
[00:28:44] guilty, so he found Zelensky, who is guilty of rising prices,
[00:28:48] diesel prices, and found a solution, which is an agreement with Putin, so here
[00:28:52] it is exclusively about current political needs
[00:28:55] of Donald Trump, that is, gaining votes, well, exactly
[00:28:58] Mr. Editor, maybe I will ask you again, but in that case, is
[00:29:02] there any chance at all, because also if you read some
[00:29:07] that the amount we are talking about, 3000 tons,
[00:29:11] that is actually the demand for one day for such internal
[00:29:15] transport in the states, so is this some
[00:29:18] kind of simply theater that is supposed to show that Donald Trump is
[00:29:21] trying, or is someone in his
[00:29:24] administration convinced that this will affect
[00:29:27] diesel prices, how does
[00:29:29] that look?
[00:29:33] The first thing is, I have to correct that a bit, because Americans are not
[00:29:37] exporters of diesel, they actually
[00:29:40] import heavy fuel fractions,
[00:29:44] because from their type of oil, the most
[00:29:47] effective production is gasoline production, while
[00:29:51] diesel, or heating oil, often has to be
[00:29:54] imported, often previously imported from
[00:29:57] Persian Gulf countries, Venezuela,
[00:30:00] and before the imposition of sanctions on Russia in
[00:30:04] 2022, Russia was one of the key
[00:30:08] suppliers of heavy fuel fractions such as heating oil to
[00:30:12] the United States, then that ended, and today
[00:30:15] Donald Trump is effectively unfreezing these sanctions that were
[00:30:19] imposed years ago, allowing Russian
[00:30:23] fuels, finished petroleum products, to
[00:30:25] enter the American market,
[00:30:29] deliveries change anything? As a rule, no.
[00:30:32] As a rule, they don't change anything, because these quantities, these values we are talking about
[00:30:36] are small, and as you mentioned, it's more
[00:30:39] hours of consumption, rather than
[00:30:42] weeks or months, but what is
[00:30:45] important is the change in this policy, which has so far been very
[00:30:49] stable in terms of maintaining international sanctions on Russia,
[00:30:53] Americans, already in the first
[00:30:56] element, are withdrawing themselves in the context of energy
[00:30:59] sanctions. The reason is that
[00:31:15] the price of fuel on international
[00:31:18] markets is jumping, but another reason
[00:31:22] is that, let's remember, Americans were importing
[00:31:25] large quantities of diesel from Canada, and Canada
[00:31:29] today is one of the main players with whom Donald Trump
[00:31:32] is waging a rather sharp political
[00:31:35] war over trade agreements
[00:31:38] or tariffs, so this permission for Russia to
[00:31:42] import fuel from Russia is
[00:31:45] a trigger that is a result
[00:31:49] of, on one hand, the policy of the United States under
[00:31:52] Donald Trump, and on the other hand, the very bad situation on the fuel market in
[00:31:56] the United States, because the situation is indeed
[00:32:00] difficult, fuel reserves in the United States are dwindling,
[00:32:03] and the number of directions from which to import fuel has
[00:32:07] very, very decreased, so
[00:32:11] hence this decision to open up to Russia.
[00:32:14] Hmm. I would also ask about the second thread of what happened over
[00:32:18] the weekend. Yesterday, Donald Trump also announced that, well,
[00:32:21] in fact, he had negotiated, I guess you could say, on True
[00:32:25] Social, that he had negotiated this truce in
[00:32:28] attacking energy infrastructure on both sides. It turned
[00:32:32] out that the Ukrainians knew nothing about it, and the Russians
[00:32:35] also didn't know. Now they are even saying that
[00:32:39] they are not particularly interested, so, well, exactly
[00:32:42] my next question also boils down to... why
[00:32:46] such a move, was it, or was it really just
[00:32:50] another such signal for domestic
[00:32:53] politics, or I don't know, was it some kind of attempt to present
[00:32:57] both Ukraine and Russia with a fait accompli, how
[00:33:00] should we actually interpret what is happening? Donald Trump governs by fait accompli
[00:33:04] and it was definitely an attempt to do so, he wanted to try, maybe
[00:33:07] this time it would work again, especially since he had made an agreement
[00:33:11] with Putin regarding diesel, so he
[00:33:15] hoped that maybe this was a good start, and the next step would be
[00:33:18] this energy agreement. Let's also remember that Donald Trump
[00:33:22] constantly boasts that he recently ended eight wars, so the ninth
[00:33:25] is still ahead of him, and in the context of the elections, this is also another
[00:33:29] potential plus for his
[00:33:32] favor. Let's also remember that Donald
[00:33:35] Trump, well, has very bad relations with Zelensky recently, and
[00:33:39] blames Volodymyr Zelensky personally for
[00:33:42] the rising prices of gasoline, and diesel in the United
[00:33:45] States, so he had to increase this pressure to
[00:33:49] persuade Ukraine to make concessions, but as
[00:33:52] Volodymyr Zelensky said today at the Warsaw Security Forum, Vladimir
[00:33:56] Putin does not read True Social, and this truce ended quite
[00:33:59] quickly, but the Ukrainian president himself proposed that he could make
[00:34:03] such a deal with him, because it is he, after all,
[00:34:05] Ukraine
[00:34:08] attacks Russian oil targets, so maybe it's worth
[00:34:11] agreeing, and there was also, I think, an addition that...
[00:34:15] this truce, this ceasefire, is to concern only refineries,
[00:34:18] which Ukraine has already destroyed, so Russian refineries are being
[00:34:22] attacked, meaning it's like that, yes, Donald Trump
[00:34:25] defined it very one-sidedly, that's true, Donald
[00:34:29] Trump has recently been very strongly influencing Volodymyr Zelensky, he
[00:34:33] even said that it might be time to change the Ukrainian leader, they have a very
[00:34:37] long history of disagreement between them since 2019,
[00:34:40] when a conversation with Zelensky led to Donald Trump's first
[00:34:44] impeachment trial, so it's not a very rough friendship, if we can call
[00:34:47] it that, rough relations between the two leaders, and for Donald Trump,
[00:34:51] relations between leaders are indeed relations between
[00:34:55] states, he very strongly projects personal relations onto relations or interests
[00:34:58] of states, and if these relations are not the best, then these interests do not
[00:35:02] align, Mr. Editor, I would ask you what the international
[00:35:05] consequences of this deal that Donald Trump concluded might
[00:35:09] be, because as I understand it, nothing suggests he will withdraw from it yet.
[00:35:13] This concerning diesel.
[00:35:16] On the other hand, today the European
[00:35:20] Union foreign ministers agreed that
[00:35:23] an extended package of sanctions will be introduced,
[00:35:26] but this is still a very, very serious breach
[00:35:29] in this sanctions policy against Russia?
[00:35:33] Well, the first thing is, I'll refer back to
[00:35:36] this ceasefire. It is, of course, in my opinion,
[00:35:39] pressure on the Ukrainians, because the Russians
[00:35:43] will continue to
[00:35:51] attack power transmission stations
[00:35:54] or distribution stations, that will continue,
[00:35:57] that will be implemented, because from the perspective of the Americans,
[00:36:00] they essentially don't care what the energy
[00:36:04] system of Ukraine will look like this winter,
[00:36:07] from Washington's perspective, it's
[00:36:09] oil infrastructure that matters, but not Ukraine's, but Russia's. This
[00:36:13] is, in my opinion, a signal that, on the one hand, Trump
[00:36:17] or the United States wants to show
[00:36:20] balancing, this equilibrium, but primarily it's about
[00:36:24] protecting oil export facilities.
[00:36:29] Russian ones, those that can bring additional fuel to the market,
[00:36:32] but how will this affect the international situation?
[00:36:36] Let's remember that Russia is one of the main producers of fuels, it is a
[00:36:40] producer of gasoline, diesel,
[00:36:42] in recent months these main products
[00:36:46] of Russian refineries have stopped being exported abroad,
[00:36:50] because a large part of Russian refineries, which are
[00:36:53] located... they are in the European part of Russia, have been
[00:36:56] attacked at least once by Ukrainian drones, of course
[00:37:00] these repairs are being carried out, the Russians
[00:37:04] are restoring production capacity, but it's not easy, it costs
[00:37:07] time and money, and because the Russian market
[00:37:10] is also absorbent, it also needs large quantities of
[00:37:14] fuel, so for export of this fuel, either nothing
[00:37:18] at all goes, or very small quantities went
[00:37:21] in previous months, and what now? If Russian oil
[00:37:24] or fuels are indeed exported, let's remember that until the end
[00:37:28] of October there is a ban on the export of diesel
[00:37:31] established by Russia, so Russia would have to
[00:37:35] lift this ban, this export ban,
[00:37:39] well, the situation will probably not
[00:37:42] change. If oil or finished fuels, meaning this
[00:37:46] diesel, can flow, then it will probably
[00:37:49] have some impact on world fuel prices.
[00:37:53] Because let's remember that these fuels affect
[00:37:56] the world market, and if we are short
[00:38:00] of fuels from the Persian Gulf, Middle Eastern
[00:38:03] countries, then Russian fuels will certainly find their buyers,
[00:38:06] which will also reduce such a supply,
[00:38:10] reduce tensions on the supply market.
[00:38:13] Therefore, we will see how the situation
[00:38:16] develops. For now, the Russians themselves
[00:38:19] are short of fuel, so that is unlikely to
[00:38:22] change in the next few weeks. I would also ask at
[00:38:25] the end, perhaps, because there have already been some voices,
[00:38:29] even from individual, it's true, Republicans, that this
[00:38:33] is a betrayal, here there was a reference to Lindsey
[00:38:35] Graham, such a strongly pro-Ukrainian
[00:38:39] politician, who died a few weeks ago, but I wanted to
[00:38:43] ask, because there were also such declarations from
[00:38:46] Republican congressmen that there would be
[00:38:49] an attempt to block this decision, this agreement with
[00:38:52] Vladimir Putin, do you think there is any chance of that, or is
[00:38:56] this still a song after the midterm elections?
[00:38:59] I think it will be very difficult before the midterm elections. Donald
[00:39:03] Trump has learned to govern without Congress and doesn't really care what Congress says
[00:39:07] or what Congress promises, so if the Republicans maintain a majority in
[00:39:11] these midterm elections, then Donald Trump will be able to do what he wants. If
[00:39:15] the majority in Congress changes, then perhaps
[00:39:18] adequate, or will actually be effective in stopping
[00:39:22] this agreement with... we were told, ladies and gentlemen,
[00:39:25] that Pegasus was to be used to fight
[00:39:40] spies and terrorists.
[00:39:44] The commission found that this was a myth,
[00:39:46] a myth repeated by politicians of
[00:39:50] the then government, the system could not work on
[00:39:54] numbers registered in Russia, China,
[00:39:58] North Korea, Israel or Belarus.
[00:40:01] A narrative was created about the necessity of fighting dangerous
[00:40:05] crime and terrorism. The report,
[00:40:07] however, proves that this argument was
[00:40:10] merely a pretext for acquiring a tool with unlimited
[00:40:14] interference in
[00:40:18] the fact that Pegasus is a dual-use technology, its sale requires
[00:40:21] the individual consent for export from the Israeli
[00:40:25] Ministry of Defense. What and under what
[00:40:29] conditions Polish services would use
[00:40:32] Pegasus was decided by
[00:40:35] the government of a foreign country, and with
[00:40:39] me in the studio are Paweł Bliźniuk, Civic Coalition, good
[00:40:42] morning, Andrzej Szejna, New Left, good morning, and Paweł Lisiecki,
[00:40:46] Law and Justice, good morning. In a second, I will talk to
[00:40:49] the gentlemen about Pegasus, about
[00:40:51] this final report that was presented
[00:40:55] today, about the public part.
[00:40:57] First, I have a question for you, Mr. Minister, because yesterday
[00:41:01] a lot of information appeared in various media about
[00:41:03] Dr. Michał Peno, who was supposed to become Deputy
[00:41:07] Commissioner for Human Rights on behalf of the New Left. This was announced,
[00:41:11] Dr. Adam Krzywoń lost his
[00:41:15] position, then it turned out that
[00:41:18] Dr. Peno would not be taking up this position. What
[00:41:22] actually happened and why did the New Left want
[00:41:25] this position and then withdrew from it?
[00:41:28] I'd be happy to answer you, but we don't have
[00:41:32] any knowledge on this topic and frankly, I don't
[00:41:35] have any influence or
[00:41:38] took part in these negotiations. Well, okay, but in that
[00:41:42] case, what is your assessment as a member of the New Left, should it look like this,
[00:41:45] because I have a quote from officials of the Commissioner's
[00:41:49] office for Human Rights, that never in the history of the
[00:41:53] office has there been a transfer from politics to this
[00:41:56] institution, well, precisely in such a way that here,
[00:42:00] after all, good practice has been violated, how does it look? Well,
[00:42:03] I emphasize again, neither this candidacy nor this topic was discussed
[00:42:07] at any forum, whether it was...
[00:42:40] if I usually have any, they concern changes in the government or in such
[00:42:44] positions that are political in nature, and in these types of
[00:42:47] decisions, also as a member of, for example, the national board, I participate,
[00:42:50] but this matter is completely unknown to me, and it is not an escape
[00:42:54] from my part from the answer. Well, okay, but just one sentence, how do you assess
[00:42:58] what happened? It's hard to assess something I don't know,
[00:43:01] so
[00:43:04] I told you exactly how the situation looked, it is
[00:43:07] God, was it supposed to be? The Left was
[00:43:10] not ultimately, it's such that a person was already dismissed so that he would take
[00:43:14] the position, but when the matter reached the media, they withdrew from it,
[00:43:18] well, you probably have to ask those who made such decisions.
[00:43:22] If it came down to it, as I understand,
[00:43:25] the matter is such that no one holds this position, it is vacant at the moment,
[00:43:29] right? Yes, yes, it was supposed to be filled, but it turned out to be quite
[00:43:32] problematic. I would be happy to delve deeply into this discussion if I had
[00:43:36] even minimal knowledge. I personally believe that
[00:43:40] such positions as the Commissioner for Human Rights
[00:43:44] or judges, we also discussed that, require
[00:43:47] appropriate substantive background, right? Certainly,
[00:43:50] if the candidacy, even if it was, as you say, put forward by
[00:43:54] the New Left, it had such a substantive background, but how it happened, whether
[00:43:57] it really was as you described it, I don't have that knowledge.
[00:44:00] We already had such a debate, for example, around Judge
[00:44:03] Maciej Berek, where ultimately both the Left and
[00:44:07] I voted for his candidacy, despite the fact that...
[00:44:10] he moved from almost directly a ministerial position to
[00:44:13] a judge of the Constitutional Tribunal, it caused a lot of
[00:44:17] discussion, a lot of storm, and such matters always cause controversy,
[00:44:20] so I'm not surprised that this, well, I promised that
[00:44:24] Pegasus would also be discussed today, the commission
[00:44:27] presented the public part of this report.
[00:44:29] In short, it can also be said that
[00:44:33] 11 officials
[00:44:35] will probably be charged,
[00:44:37] because the commission has filed
[00:44:39] notifications with the prosecutor's office.
[00:44:42] One by one, there is a prosecutor who conducted
[00:44:45] the investigation into Krzysztof Brejza, Zbigniew Ziobro, Mariusz Kamiński, Maciej
[00:44:49] Wąsik, Michał Woś, Ernest Bejda, Maciej Materka, Piotr
[00:44:52] Pogonowski, from ABW, Maciej Szpanowski, Mr.
[00:44:55] MP, the Pegasus case is back,
[00:44:58] there may be more charges, we know more and more, we know
[00:45:02] that, after all, the data
[00:45:06] was available to an Israeli company, even Polish services did not have
[00:45:09] such access to this data that was collected
[00:45:12] using Pegasus. How will you comment on this?
[00:45:15] In this way, dear lady, 14
[00:45:19] countries in the European Union used Pegasus, at least 14
[00:45:22] countries in the European Union, there are also proceedings in this matter
[00:45:26] and there were also at the European level, there was also a commission in the European
[00:45:30] Parliament regarding the use of Pegasus as exceeding certain
[00:45:33] certain one thing, meaning standards or
[00:45:37] exceeding the law, because those are two different.
[00:46:10] they even have such a system that can surveil devices in this way,
[00:46:13] the courts didn't know about it, the public didn't know, how were
[00:46:16] the courts supposed to know, but Mr. Editor, excuse me, what were the judges
[00:46:20] signing who gave consent for operational control,
[00:46:23] not being aware of what it consisted of, excuse me, and what,
[00:46:27] what is the difference here in your opinion when it comes to eventual
[00:46:31] searching for people who commit
[00:46:35] crimes, when it comes to Pegasus or other operational
[00:46:38] control, if, if there is a suspicion
[00:46:41] of a crime, there is also the judge's
[00:46:45] consent, if there was no suspicion of a crime, then
[00:46:49] such consent should not be given, that is for me.
[00:46:53] The second thing is also that during these 5 years
[00:46:56] of using Pegasus,
[00:46:59] approximately 600 people
[00:47:02] were surveilled. I would like to remind you that one of the people who
[00:47:05] were surveilled and who were caught is Pablo
[00:47:09] Rubcov, Paweł Rubcov, Pablo Gonzalez. Thanks to
[00:47:13] Pegasus, this man ended up in a Polish prison. The current
[00:47:17] government unfortunately released him, so in my
[00:47:20] opinion, but excuse me, but you are making an accusation that the government, as part of
[00:47:24] international agreements on prisoner exchanges,
[00:47:27] is releasing people. Well, I have a question, what did Poland get
[00:47:30] in exchange for Pablo Rubtsov, what prisoner was
[00:47:34] released who would be Polish, because I don't recall
[00:47:38] anyone Polish being released from a Belarusian
[00:47:41] prison for Pablo Rubtsov, so, dear lady,
[00:47:45] it would be good if now, I have a question here for
[00:47:49] you all, with a skewer or a game that
[00:48:22] you remember from your youth, you really mocked, you said that there was no
[00:48:26] such thing, there are recordings and it's worth remembering them and
[00:48:30] three threads, because this scandal, this case has three threads. The first is
[00:48:34] the question of what funds Pegasus was purchased
[00:48:37] with, and it was done secretly using the Justice
[00:48:40] Fund, which was supposed to be used to allocate funds for
[00:48:44] victims of crimes, meaning they robbed those who were and are victims
[00:48:48] of crimes, by buying a secret cybernetic weapon. that is truly a disaster, it is a disaster,
[00:49:32] meaning today the prime minister spoke about it, but it was also spoken about
[00:49:36] earlier, we have confirmation that
[00:49:39] data
[00:49:41] collected using this
[00:49:44] cybernetic weapon was transferred to servers
[00:49:48] linked to Israel, directly into the hands of.
[00:50:22] for the security of our state, they should be held
[00:50:26] accountable for this, simply, this is a matter right now, the second
[00:50:29] issue is, we also need to draw systemic conclusions regarding
[00:50:32] how certain operations should be conducted,
[00:50:36] we have a law that strengthens judicial oversight over the activities of services,
[00:50:40] it was passed by parliament, signed by the president, and this
[00:50:43] is such a systemic conclusion, so to speak.
[00:50:47] However, there are three threads: funds from the Justice
[00:50:50] Fund allocated for a
[00:50:53] weapon in a secret, hidden way, a cyberweapon for
[00:50:57] surveilling the opposition, journalists,
[00:51:00] prosecutors, those who were inconvenient, and in the end
[00:51:03] it turned out that this data that was acquired was and was
[00:51:06] transferred into the hands of foreign intelligence services. Okay, I'll let
[00:51:10] the MP speak now, because he wanted to comment on the fact that it was excluded
[00:51:14] for phone numbers from Russia, Belarus, and Korea, North, precisely
[00:51:17] because when there is operational control on these
[00:51:21] numbers, Russian services will have
[00:51:24] information that someone is being surveilled, therefore
[00:51:28] these types of actions are simply normal
[00:51:31] actions, and one more thing, because you stated that journalists
[00:51:34] were surveilled, one of those journalists was precisely
[00:51:38] Pablo
[00:51:41] Gonzalez, who was precisely caught thanks to
[00:51:44] Pegasus, and one more thing, I hope
[00:51:48] that currently Polish services have such
[00:51:51] a system,
[00:51:58] because these are the cases we are talking about, Krzysztof Brejza, who was
[00:52:01] at that time, when he was being surveilled, the campaign manager, because here we are talking about.
[00:52:16] for the surveillance of the people you mentioned, because it would be good to ask him
[00:52:20] why he agreed to it, judges, there were interviews with
[00:52:23] judges who said that judges were not aware that such
[00:52:27] a thing existed, now, if finally a law has been introduced,
[00:52:30] which excuse
[00:52:34] me,
[00:53:05] cases, which both the MP and you, Madam Editor,
[00:53:08] mentioned, this was not the purpose of purchasing this program by Mr.
[00:53:12] Ziobro illegally, Mr. Ziobro, who is now in
[00:53:15] the United States and does not dare to come to
[00:53:19] Poland, because he would be immediately arrested and finally brought to justice,
[00:53:23] or Mr. Romanowski, who also in connection with
[00:53:26] the illegal use of funds from the Justice Fund, also
[00:53:30] fled the country, I will tell you this, there are several
[00:53:33] charges, the way
[00:53:42] in which one can surveil people, whether journalists, or
[00:53:45] politicians, or judges, or even their
[00:53:48] own party colleagues, because from what we know, this probably also happened,
[00:53:52] is so far-reaching, one can say, it interferes with
[00:53:56] personal life, then all these information,
[00:53:59] which can sometimes concern personal life, matters,
[00:54:02] illnesses, some various. extremely sensitive
[00:54:05] matters were transferred to
[00:54:09] the control of most likely a foreign intelligence or
[00:54:12] counterintelligence service, sir, please, sir,
[00:54:15] today
[00:54:18] the sale of this program is approved by
[00:54:21] the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Israel, therefore, what
[00:54:25] you have led to by acting illegally, is endangering
[00:54:28] the Polish state, you have endangered not only private individuals, but also
[00:54:31] individuals holding state functions. And
[00:54:35] if you talk about judges, because now you want to shift the blame for these
[00:54:39] decisions to judges, no, sir, judges, time and again, to whom
[00:54:42] evidence is provided, which
[00:54:46] forms the basis for making this decision, act under the
[00:54:49] pressure of the prosecutor's office during the conducted
[00:54:52] investigation, as you say, for example in cases of espionage,
[00:54:55] information, pressure from the prosecutor's office, if
[00:54:58] such a standard, under
[00:55:01] nacuratory.