TVPINFO — Pytanie dnia
20261012 175800 UTC
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[00:00:06] Good evening, everyone, Justyna Dobroszora, which means I invite you to today's question. With me and with you is
[00:00:10] the chairwoman of the investigative commission for Pegasus affairs, Magdalena Sroka,
[00:00:14] also a member of the Polish People's Party. Good evening. Good evening,
[00:00:18] Madam Editor, good evening everyone. Over two years of the commission's work, and
[00:00:21] I must admit, I think no commission has had it so hard as
[00:00:25] yours. Did the truth turn out to be more
[00:00:28] shocking for you?
[00:00:30] in the investigation. I will than the reports of independent media? I
[00:00:34] classified part, at am in the comfortable situation of also knowing the classified material
[00:00:38] that the commission has gathered, and there are indeed
[00:00:41] such cases described that would shock
[00:00:44] absolutely everyone who would familiarize themselves
[00:00:48] with this topic,
[00:00:51] Pegasus. The Pegasus commission is the commission that
[00:00:54] had the most problems, it touched upon the most
[00:00:57] sensitive topic, which is surveillance.
[00:01:09] What is in this classified part, we will talk about it soon, about what today for several hours, as
[00:01:13] you and the MPs reported, your findings, but also this
[00:01:16] classified part, since we brought up this topic, are there
[00:01:20] names there, does the commission know the names of public figures
[00:01:23] who were surveilled, about whom we do not yet know, for example? The commission
[00:01:26] analyzed several examples to show how the whole thing looked.
[00:01:30] However, in the classified part there will be names that have not
[00:01:34] yet appeared, and parliamentarians will hear about it during
[00:01:37] a closed session of the Sejm. Does this also concern
[00:01:40] journalists, were journalists surveilled?
[00:01:44] And here I must make a comma or a period, I cannot
[00:01:47] talk about what is in the classified part of the report,
[00:01:51] but the names that are there will probably surprise more than one politician
[00:01:55] who will hear it at this session
[00:01:58] of the Sejm. I neither deny nor confirm. Madam MP, Madam
[00:02:01] Chairwoman, the report reveals that Pegasus could not be used
[00:02:05] against numbers registered in, for example, Russia, China, North
[00:02:08] Korea, Israel, or Belarus. So I will ask such a question,
[00:02:12] so what, so no really serious spy could
[00:02:16] be caught by this system? Well,
[00:02:19] PiS politicians today are trying very
[00:02:21] openly, even with great certainty, to talk about the spies they
[00:02:25] caught. Well, no, they did not have the ability to
[00:02:28] surveil numbers...
[00:02:37] the Pegasus system was deactivated, so these are
[00:02:40] nonsense stories that the gentlemen from Law and Justice are telling. Today
[00:02:43] they are talking about it and trying to pull the wool over our eyes, but
[00:02:47] in fact they did not have such capabilities, it was in a certain sense
[00:02:51] an alibi for Law and Justice, but I will ask directly, did the PiS
[00:02:54] government secretly buy Pegasus for
[00:02:57] spying, but certainly... only critics of the government, was
[00:03:01] it conceived from the beginning, do you have such certainty after these
[00:03:04] months of difficult hearings, where witnesses had to
[00:03:07] be brought in, they never appeared before the commission,
[00:03:10] did this thesis, which appeared in many journalistic materials, from
[00:03:14] the time of the PiS government, did it
[00:03:16] confirm itself?
[00:03:18] Very different people
[00:03:21] were surveilled and today
[00:03:24] we say directly that they interfered
[00:03:28] with what opposition politicians were
[00:03:30] doing. Politicians who spoke out loudly against the government, not only
[00:03:34] politicians, but also prosecutors, judges,
[00:03:37] lawyers, these were people who were opposed
[00:03:40] to the previous government, but it wasn't just such
[00:03:44] people, we're talking about several hundred people against
[00:03:47] whom the Pegasus system was used. Currently, the National Prosecutor's Office,
[00:03:51] Team Three, is conducting an investigation, and due to
[00:03:54] the good of the investigation,
[00:03:57] it has not released the list that everyone
[00:04:01] is talking about, concerning the people against whom
[00:04:04] the system was used. However, more people are
[00:04:08] learning with each passing week and month that they have been
[00:04:11] wronged in the Pegasus investigation,
[00:04:15] but they are not disclosing this to the public. They have the
[00:04:18] right to do so, and we must respect that. Let's
[00:04:21] wait for the investigation to conclude. Currently, seven people have been charged,
[00:04:25] and one person already has
[00:04:28] an indictment. Next... people, today we submitted
[00:04:31] further notifications of the possibility of committing a crime. During
[00:04:35] our work, we submitted notifications against the heads
[00:04:38] of the CBA, ABW, SKW.
[00:04:42] These gentlemen have already been charged. Now I expect
[00:04:45] that we, as a commission, doing our part, which is
[00:04:48] politically presenting and investigating the whole matter, today the
[00:04:52] prosecutor's office will take over, which will soon draw up indictments, and we, as
[00:04:56] society, will be able to observe the trials,
[00:05:00] court decisions of the court, and ultimately the guilt or
[00:05:04] innocence of all those who, in our opinion, in political opinion,
[00:05:08] broke the law. The case of the prime minister's daughter
[00:05:11] and the wife of Mr. Prime Minister Tusk
[00:05:15] caused a stir a few months ago, were they wiretapped? It is never
[00:05:18] the case that people against whom the system for operational control
[00:05:22] is used are the only people who are
[00:05:25] wiretapped. If such a system was installed
[00:05:29] on Roman Giertych's phone, and he
[00:05:31] talked to various people around him, then those
[00:05:35] people were also
[00:05:36] listened to.
[00:05:39] Which were collected
[00:05:43] also talk more about this matter in the
[00:05:47] a closed session of the Sejm. We know that their phones were rummaged through, this
[00:05:50] Pegasus, one could say, was indeed a spectacular
[00:05:53] tool in its mode of operation, but
[00:05:57] did you perhaps come across information that politicians or
[00:06:00] people dangerous to the then government were also wiretapped in
[00:06:04] real time, was there someone in the services, I don't know, who was listening
[00:06:07] to this? These are already
[00:06:09] such,
[00:06:13] this is something that fundamentally does not matter, what matters however
[00:06:16] is the fact that the system was
[00:06:20] not fully, all its elements, within the protective zone of the Central
[00:06:23] Anti-Corruption Bureau, to my great
[00:06:27] surprise, these were not the rooms that
[00:06:30] I remember from my time in service, these were rooms
[00:06:34] where, for example, officers could bring in
[00:06:37] mobile phones, this should never have happened, so...
[00:06:41] mieć miejsca, także...
[00:06:47] shows that not only was this system under
[00:06:50] the control of the Israeli company, the manufacturer, which had
[00:06:54] authorization codes, which had administrative
[00:06:57] codes for this entire system, but also one of
[00:07:00] the modules was permanently located in Israel. Today, PiS
[00:07:04] politicians are trying to say and explain that the
[00:07:07] data was transmitted encrypted with the highest standards, which is
[00:07:10] absolute nonsense, because... why are encrypted data
[00:07:14] transmitted if the administrator,
[00:07:17] the Israeli company, during
[00:07:19] the updates of this system, during
[00:07:23] the fixing of technical errors, has access
[00:07:26] to this tool, and operational controls are still ongoing, meaning
[00:07:29] they are wiretapping at the same time. And
[00:07:32] soon, Madam MP, we will continue these interesting threads.
[00:07:36] I invite you to TVP
[00:07:37] Info.
[00:07:42] The Prime Minister said today that it is not just a scandal, but a crime
[00:07:46] of state, what you were just talking about, but I wanted
[00:07:50] to ask you, did you get to, because it was an
[00:07:54] ABW letter, there was a problem to make it public,
[00:07:57] reveal it, because I heard unofficial information that you had a tough time
[00:08:00] to reveal this expertise to the public,
[00:08:04] that in fact the state did not know who
[00:08:08] had control over this, well, anyone could have it. We
[00:08:12] first... we turned to the National Prosecutor's Office
[00:08:15] to appoint experts and examine this tool, which was still
[00:08:19] located in the Central Anti-Corruption
[00:08:22] Bureau, so that a team of specialists
[00:08:25] could be appointed who would be able to answer such a question. It took a long time,
[00:08:29] in the meantime we received a partial analysis, which
[00:08:33] directly indicated that one of the modules was located in
[00:08:36] Israel. This already indicated that there was no full control
[00:08:39] over the system. Just before...
[00:08:42] the completion and presentation of the report to you, we received
[00:08:46] a top secret document, which is
[00:08:49] an analysis, which also
[00:08:52] refers to those inspections that were
[00:08:56] carried out at the Central Anti-Corruption Bureau, and there are
[00:08:59] details. Part of the materials was declassified by the decision
[00:09:02] of the Prosecutor General and handed over to the commission, which is why today I can
[00:09:06] say directly, it is not true that
[00:09:10] a foreign company did not have access. to this data, it had it whenever
[00:09:13] it wanted. This is shocking, that there were
[00:09:17] people who, contrary to what the services themselves
[00:09:21] said at the beginning of this whole story
[00:09:24] back in 2017, that this is
[00:09:27] a dangerous tool, that we should not use it,
[00:09:30] that we can use other tools, that there were
[00:09:34] such people who made the decision to allocate
[00:09:37] funds for the purchase of this system that should have been used
[00:09:41] for victims of crimes. That there were such
[00:09:44] politicians who made a political decision, because it was
[00:09:48] first and foremost a political decision, to acquire such a system. Zbigniew
[00:09:51] Ziobro was brought before the commission, he himself admitted that he was
[00:09:55] the initiator, but today the commission revealed
[00:09:58] that there was also a meeting with Mariusz Kamiński in the corridor
[00:10:02] in the Prime Minister's Chancellery. If you were to tell us all, looking at these
[00:10:06] pieces of evidence, both classified and unclassified, because we do not have access to everything,
[00:10:09] then who actually came up with this idea?
[00:10:13] The decision was made at the junction
[00:10:17] of the Ministry of Justice, the coordinator of special services, the head
[00:10:20] of the CBA, for what purpose, because
[00:10:23] everyone assumed that it was simply necessary to have a system, because let's
[00:10:27] face it, times have moved on, and indeed I checked several
[00:10:31] countries, the European Parliament also conducted such an analysis
[00:10:34] regarding Pegasus and wiretapping in various countries, but have you
[00:10:38] checked whether in other countries those countries also did not
[00:10:41] have control over this system, or only in Poland
[00:10:45] was this control handed over to the Israeli company? Yes, today there are
[00:10:49] arguments that several European Union countries also used this
[00:10:52] tool, firstly, they did not break the law, firstly,
[00:10:56] they used it as they should have, because let's remember,
[00:10:59] the Israeli company itself disconnected the ability
[00:11:03] to use this system in 2022
[00:11:07] for the PiS governments, meaning PiS
[00:11:10] lost the ability to use this tool. So, following their
[00:11:14] line of thinking, they deprived the services of such
[00:11:18] capabilities. Is this not absurd? It is absurd, they simply
[00:11:21] broke the law when
[00:11:24] using this tool. Not only did they circumvent the law,
[00:11:27] misleading the courts,
[00:11:30] the courts that analyzed the applications that came
[00:11:33] to them, they did not know at all that such
[00:11:37] a system existed, that it had such capabilities, this was not
[00:11:41] just a system that eavesdropped on phone calls made
[00:11:44] through a mobile phone, this was a system that
[00:11:47] had access to our location, could turn on the camera and
[00:11:51] microphone at any time of day, whether
[00:11:55] we are in bed at night or in the toilet, excuse
[00:11:59] such an expression, but to illustrate it, this was not
[00:12:03] a tool that was understood by the courts as a tool for
[00:12:06] operational control. Well, I heard about this
[00:12:09] today at the commission very extensively, precisely that
[00:12:13] you are debunking this narrative that the courts
[00:12:16] agreed to everything. I remember when the case broke out, I asked many PiS
[00:12:20] politicians, and the standard explanation was, yes,
[00:12:23] but the courts had control over it. You
[00:12:27] claim that the courts were deceived, out of
[00:12:30] 4,000 cases in the district court, only 40
[00:12:33] applications were dismissed, but 4,000 cases is a
[00:12:36] colossal number, meaning the system
[00:12:39] was also used to track down criminals. Do you
[00:12:43] know of any spectacular cases that, thanks
[00:12:46] to Pegasus, were,
[00:12:49] I don't know, revealed in some way? These are questions that should go to
[00:12:53] the prosecutor's office. The prosecutor's office decided at the very beginning not to
[00:12:57] disclose or reveal the lists of people against whom the system was
[00:13:00] used, which is why I would not like to rely today on
[00:13:04] speculation, on what we know informally, or what we can
[00:13:07] infer based on what
[00:13:10] we heard. Today I rely on facts, and today
[00:13:13] the material that the commission managed to gather
[00:13:17] provides powerful grounds for not only the former heads
[00:13:20] of services to be charged, but also other
[00:13:24] people who... used this system directly in
[00:13:27] each individual case, but also politicians
[00:13:31] who are responsible for it. This is really
[00:13:34] a very substantial, powerful material that I am
[00:13:38] convinced will serve the prosecutor's office, and then the courts
[00:13:41] in court cases. We know that Mariusz Kamiński, of course, during the Law and
[00:13:45] Justice era, controlled the services, he ignored
[00:13:48] the investigative commission, he did not appear before you, although you
[00:13:51] call him, I quote one of the MPs, the architect of this
[00:13:55] Pegasus system, but was he questioned
[00:13:58] by the prosecutor's office at all, because I know that you could have taken such
[00:14:02] a path, that since the MP does not appear, he cannot be
[00:14:06] brought in because he has immunity, so perhaps the investigators will
[00:14:09] question him. Was Mariusz Kamiński questioned anywhere in
[00:14:12] the Pegasus case? We submitted a request
[00:14:16] for the prosecutor's office to question both Mariusz Kamiński
[00:14:19] and Michał Wąsik on our behalf,
[00:14:23] and currently. I can say that the materials from
[00:14:26] the interrogations of one of the gentlemen are in the classified
[00:14:30] materials of the commission, they are classified, but we know that
[00:14:33] Maciej Wąsik, because one of the MPs made it public today, and I am asking about
[00:14:37] Mariusz Kamiński, so he was not questioned, no, he was not
[00:14:40] questioned, because currently he does not have
[00:14:44] the status of a suspect. If he does have such a status, that will be
[00:14:47] decided by...
[00:14:50] the witness did not appear, he simply lacked
[00:14:53] courage.
[00:14:55] wrote today: fools are organizing a dismal cabaret, this is
[00:14:59] in reference to what you presented today, well,
[00:15:03] what should I say? Most of these gentlemen who
[00:15:06] spoke have been charged, for me, these are people
[00:15:09] who can tamper with evidence, because they are suspects, both
[00:15:12] Mr. Bejda, the former head of the service, and Michał
[00:15:16] Woś, and I think that every subsequent person who
[00:15:20] so loudly tried to discredit our work, we as
[00:15:23] a commission for the first time in history encountered a situation
[00:15:27] where, at the moment when the decision was made to
[00:15:30] appoint a commission, the entire Sejm voted, but a moment later they got
[00:15:34] so scared that everyone decided not to come to
[00:15:38] the commission meetings. However, the courts imposed fines of
[00:15:41] just under 5,000 cards on such people.
[00:15:45] Przemysław Wipler was also on this commission,
[00:15:48] vice-chairman, then he disappeared,
[00:15:52] because I understand that you were waiting, Madam MP, to see if he would be granted
[00:15:55] access to classified information, and what turned out in the end, he did not have it.
[00:15:59] The Internal Security Agency completed the procedure
[00:16:02] of checking MP Wipler.
[00:16:06] He did not pass the so-called 'whirlwind,' meaning he did not receive a
[00:16:09] security clearance with the possibility
[00:16:12] of accessing top secret materials.
[00:16:16] I don't know, this is the information I have in its entirety
[00:16:20] from the Internal Security Agency. What was the basis
[00:16:23] for this decision, I think that is a question for
[00:16:27] the agency, but
[00:16:29] I had
[00:16:32] the opportunity at some point to submit a request to
[00:16:35] the Head of the Chancellery of the Sejm for temporary granting
[00:16:39] of such a possibility to the MP,
[00:16:42] also the Vice-Chairman, because he was in the presidium. I did not
[00:16:46] submit it, because I believe that
[00:16:49] there are moments when you have to
[00:16:53] listen to your intuition, and today, at the moment when you had
[00:16:56] reasons, sorry, to suspect, because I understand that this was before the crypto affair,
[00:17:00] that Przemysław Wipler might be leaking information from
[00:17:03] the commission, the Internal Security Agency
[00:17:06] confirmed, he is not a guarantee
[00:17:10] of a person who should have access to classified
[00:17:12] information, he has access to information up to the secret level, this
[00:17:16] results from the act on the performance of a Member of Parliament's mandate, but
[00:17:20] he did not receive such
[00:17:22] a certificate, and I did
[00:17:25] well not to give him such temporary access, no, but that
[00:17:29] intuition of yours, you were a policewoman, it must have come from something, that's why I ask what,
[00:17:33] yes, sometimes it happens that such intuitions come, if
[00:17:36] there are people towards whom one does not have full trust, as
[00:17:40] confirmed by the Internal Security Agency, then one must proceed
[00:17:43] very cautiously. That is why MP Wipler never at any
[00:17:47] stage of the commission's work had access to top secret documents.
[00:17:50] Sławomir Mentzen recently ridiculed policewomen
[00:17:53] in service. Well, I ask you, you were there for many years, but he
[00:17:56] did not take the physical fitness test, he did not appear,
[00:18:00] he did not take up the challenge. Why do you think? Because he is
[00:18:04] such a person who is strong in words, but when it
[00:18:08] comes down to it, he simply chickens out. Of course, this is
[00:18:11] not about a physical fitness test at all, because the MP
[00:18:14] may not be
[00:18:17] a person who is fully fit, like officers. It is about
[00:18:20] the fact that MP Mentzen decided to mock women
[00:18:24] who decided to take responsibility for the safety of another
[00:18:27] human being. He only has the courage to insult
[00:18:31] people on social media, these women who
[00:18:34] joined the service have the courage to take responsibility for the
[00:18:38] health and lives of citizens, and I will not
[00:18:40] allow anyone to insult
[00:18:43] Polish women in this way, who every day
[00:18:47] truly perform their duties in a
[00:18:49] way that is truly with 100%
[00:18:53] commitment. That is why I submitted a request to the Sejm's
[00:18:56] Ethics Committee to punish
[00:18:59] MP Mentzen. We, by the way, in
[00:19:01] Confederation,
[00:19:04] we have a problem with Confederation MPs. the level
[00:19:08] of public debate, indeed, well, yes, but you can always
[00:19:11] change the rules of the game, since there is such
[00:19:14] a problem that some do not want to beat their
[00:19:17] chests, but women in uniform, Madam MP, because
[00:19:21] this is a narrative that Confederation MPs
[00:19:24] have been suggesting on social
[00:19:27] media for some time, that they have it easier than men, no,
[00:19:30] absolutely, it's not a question of easier or harder. I
[00:19:34] repeatedly faced such an opinion in the services.
[00:19:37] working, and it only took a moment for everyone
[00:19:41] who worked with me to know that it didn't matter
[00:19:45] whether I was a woman or not, it was about the task and about
[00:19:48] the fulfillment of the entrusted task. Women in the services
[00:19:51] perform very different tasks,
[00:19:54] they hold very different positions, they don't always have to be
[00:19:57] strongmen who go out on the street and intervene,
[00:20:01] there are also those who do, but there are also
[00:20:04] other tasks that cannot be performed only by
[00:20:08] women. We live in such times, discrimination based on
[00:20:11] gender, simply unacceptable, so
[00:20:15] really, let's not harass, let's not discourage women from
[00:20:19] joining the services or the police, or the army, because
[00:20:22] really, I recently spoke with the Minister of National
[00:20:26] Defense. Women who are today
[00:20:30] soldiers, Władysław Kosiniak-Kamysz says directly,
[00:20:34] they perform tasks that many men would not be able
[00:20:37] to handle, but again, there are tasks for men, and
[00:20:41] they perform their tasks in completely different
[00:20:44] areas, so really, let's not disqualify anyone based on
[00:20:48] gender, let's always take into account skills, training,
[00:20:51] experience, that matters.