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20261012 220300 UTC
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[00:01:06] factors that influenced
[00:01:12] attacks, these are precisely people meeting
[00:01:51] Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, what happened, all of Poland saw, why
[00:01:55] it happened, there are no wise theories here, there was a time when
[00:01:59] children carried penknives to school to peel an apple, today they carry
[00:02:03] bayonets to school, they attack their peers, people
[00:02:06] die, this is not a picture of Polish school, this is not any standard,
[00:02:10] but too much bad things happened, in too short a time, for it to be considered
[00:02:13] that nothing happened, whether legislation, whether a newly
[00:02:17] created regulation can ensure safety in Polish schools, whether regulations
[00:02:21] can serve this purpose, this is a question that we address to you, I present
[00:02:26] dozen countries covered by this study, our guests today, in our studio Mrs. Paulina Piechna Więckiewicz, Undersecretary.
[00:02:33] a way to
[00:02:39] Dr. Konrad Siesiółkiewicz, psychologist,
[00:02:42] Kurczak University,
[00:02:45] and Member of Parliament Arkadiusz Czartoryski, Law and
[00:02:47] Justice.
[00:02:53] It was really hard for us to get used to
[00:02:56] and hear and see what we heard and saw
[00:03:00] last week, but it happened.
[00:03:11] The attacker, to draw attention and create a crowd, from
[00:03:15] what I know, he set fire to a backpack and placed it next to him,
[00:03:18] to cause a commotion, and at the moment when it got crowded, he took advantage of
[00:03:22] the situation, words were said that he would like to be famous on his birthday,
[00:03:26] I can't reach
[00:03:29] you, it's a very difficult situation for everyone, emotions must
[00:03:33] subside, I tried to talk to him, once I made contact, he asked me
[00:03:37] for help, and in short, it even came to him wanting to be
[00:03:40] hugged, these social media do a lot of harm,
[00:03:43] because you can't really protect yourself from it, President
[00:03:47] Karol Nabrodzki deserted from
[00:03:49] responsibility for internet security, all those parents
[00:03:53] who are
[00:03:55] scared, are scared, because then you didn't have
[00:03:59] the courage.
[00:04:02] In the world live people who behave
[00:04:04] decently, there live people who behave
[00:04:08] indecently, there live people who behave like
[00:04:11] hyenas, attacking the president, he crossed
[00:04:15] even that third category, please withdraw
[00:04:18] that, if we are talking about what suddenly pushed
[00:04:22] this person to such an action, then it is only and exclusively
[00:04:25] a trigger, however, the whole
[00:04:28] avalanche is gaining momentum... Let's repeat
[00:04:38] then, can changes in regulations, in your opinion, restore safety to Polish schools,
[00:04:42] to which we are accustomed, somewhat violated, however, by the events of
[00:04:46] recent weeks. Minister, MP, because this is a question I must
[00:04:49] ask politicians: Polish education is passionately
[00:04:52] reformed, whenever there is
[00:04:56] a change of political season, some reform approaches Polish schools.
[00:05:00] You change textbooks, teaching curricula, you introduce junior high schools,
[00:05:04] you liquidate junior high schools, new subjects, old subjects, in the end
[00:05:07] you come to such a place, what
[00:05:10] was overlooked in the reform of Polish education? That we have such
[00:05:13] a situation, nobody asks if it teaches well or not well, it's just dangerous,
[00:05:19] that above all, reforms are, this is
[00:05:22] a truism, but they are supposed to serve
[00:05:26] if we are dealing with the challenges of the modern world, undoubtedly
[00:05:29] disinformation, issues related to digital
[00:05:33] hygiene, these are such challenges, they found
[00:05:36] their way into our Compass of the Future reform, which
[00:05:39] on September 1st entered Polish... schools,
[00:05:42] reliable source searching,
[00:05:45] resistance to disinformation in the media education module, but also
[00:05:48] in mandatory health education,
[00:05:52] digital hygiene, because counteracting,
[00:05:55] prevention, also
[00:05:57] of such tragic events we are
[00:06:01] talking about today, is the issue of taking care of
[00:06:05] the well-being of young people, however, the
[00:06:08] editor very wisely referred to this situation, saying, this is not
[00:06:11] the image of... the entire Polish school, and at the same time
[00:06:15] we are looking for various
[00:06:18] these events, surely
[00:06:22] Dr. Ciesiołkiewicz will talk more about it, but we are dealing with
[00:06:26] the radicalization of young people, we have a report
[00:06:29] from the Internal Security Agency from this year, we are dealing with
[00:06:33] lost, lonely
[00:06:36] children, young people, we are dealing with
[00:06:39] adults, they must understand that we adults are primarily
[00:06:43] responsible for this, because
[00:06:47] if we hear, we see these studies, in which the average time
[00:06:51] of such a qualitative conversation at home with
[00:06:54] a child, is 6 seconds, I sometimes can't
[00:06:57] believe that it can
[00:07:00] really look like this, which
[00:07:04] does not change the fact that I also understand that parents today also need
[00:07:07] support, because they do not know all these threats, which for example
[00:07:11] come from the network, do you think that a regulation can change anything here, or is the problem
[00:07:15] completely elsewhere, not in the law?
[00:07:18] Sir, MP, don't you have the impression that the Polish political class lost a very
[00:07:22] important element in reforming education, since we found ourselves
[00:07:25] in such a place, that is, the Polish political class is very diverse,
[00:07:28] there is a discussion in democracy, in
[00:07:31] democracy it is obvious and normal that this discussion continues, we can
[00:07:34] have different opinions, of course regulations exist, have existed
[00:07:38] and will exist, and regulations are important, they are necessary for our...
[00:08:13] I will probably disagree with the minister, but
[00:08:17] I don't feel like such an expert
[00:08:19] to give some, although I was a teacher for many years in high
[00:08:22] school, what you showed also affected my city
[00:08:26] Ostrołęka, but I don't feel like an expert to give a recipe
[00:08:30] right away here today in the program, I can only talk about my
[00:08:34] convictions, life experience of a person who is 60 years old,
[00:08:38] and had contact with youth, what can I say
[00:08:41] critically? Not in the form of an attack, Minister, but it seems to me
[00:08:44] that, for example, the abolition
[00:08:48] of homework is
[00:08:51] a gesture towards giving you more time, but the question is, where do young people
[00:08:55] spend that time that was once devoted to homework,
[00:08:57] where do they spend it now, do they not sometimes sit
[00:09:01] alone in front of a computer screen, the abolition of the subject
[00:09:05] education for family life, halving
[00:09:08] religion and ethics classes, but for me, also as
[00:09:11] a teacher...
[00:09:16] curriculum from history teaching, history teaching is also teaching
[00:09:19] about role models, about national heroes, about certain positive
[00:09:23] role models, Father Kolbe, Pilecki, Inka,
[00:09:26] Kościuszko were withdrawn, so many,
[00:09:28] so many
[00:09:31] were withdrawn, also a number of Polish literature, I understand that
[00:09:34] perhaps such a trend towards young people not wanting to spend
[00:09:38] so much time at school, is, may be popular, but the question
[00:09:41] is... through this limitation, I have listed here at least five such
[00:09:45] limitations in school,
[00:09:49] where do young people spend their time now instead, well the question
[00:09:52] is whether they don't sometimes spend it in front of those computers, I want to say this
[00:09:55] clearly, it's not that I am 100% sure,
[00:09:59] this is my conviction, that we used to study every
[00:10:02] Saturday for example, we also had homework,
[00:10:06] the situation is such, are we, by
[00:10:09] reforming school, limiting it,
[00:10:12] able, or did the government at all propose something positive for young people
[00:10:15] to do after school, I would just like
[00:10:19] to note that after school at home there are also parents, children are not there
[00:10:22] alone.
[00:10:25] Well, certainly what has been important since time immemorial, cooperation
[00:10:29] between school and family,
[00:10:31] contact between parents and school, these are extremely important things, I don't suppose
[00:10:35] anyone of us would question that it is important, right, that it is
[00:10:38] important, well, okay, pay attention to what I
[00:10:41] don't like, what you did, okay, but Mr. Editor, these are pretty
[00:10:45] serious accusations, homework accusations, we are discussing,
[00:10:48] okay, I'm completely calm, that opinions
[00:10:52] are exchanged.
[00:10:55] serve to build relationships, we also haven't
[00:10:58] shortened, which young people are appealing for,
[00:11:01] that we should shorten precisely, Mr. MP, the time
[00:11:05] of classes, homework does not serve what
[00:11:08] you, Mr. MP, are talking about, it serves, for example,
[00:11:12] health education, where we learn about relationships, about
[00:11:15] the attitude towards another human being, about
[00:11:19] the dignity of another human being, this reform is
[00:11:22] also not a reform where there is less...
[00:11:41] And so the police appeared, perhaps there will be some restrictions on the internet, I just wanted
[00:11:44] to ask you, mainly the editor, whether
[00:11:46] I know
[00:11:49] there is a cause, because there will always be consequences, as long as there is a cause,
[00:11:52] no, there isn't one cause, but I wanted to
[00:11:55] say right away that I was very surprised, you said
[00:11:59] that the withdrawal of education for family life
[00:12:02] served the school badly, it's strange
[00:12:06] why your group is against the introduction of compulsory health
[00:12:09] education, in which, among other things, there are topics
[00:12:13] of tolerance, of counteracting racism and
[00:12:16] homophobia, that might help, no, there isn't
[00:12:20] one cause, but I would talk about
[00:12:24] such a cause: which is
[00:12:27] less frequently noticed, it is also what the latest
[00:12:30] PISA study shows, whether it is such an international study of the skills
[00:12:34] of 15-year-olds, that every
[00:12:37] third Polish teenager does not feel
[00:12:41] at home in school, as if at home, meaning they don't
[00:12:44] feel connected to school, we are at the
[00:12:48] very bottom of this table of several
[00:12:51] this is for me... very important
[00:12:55] and I would also like to hear
[00:12:58] do something so that this school
[00:13:02] is not such a foreign
[00:13:05] body, well, there is some benchmark to which we can refer, how it should look
[00:13:09] and why it works somewhere and not with us, well, I think that
[00:13:13] benchmark simply needs to be found,
[00:13:15] of course,
[00:13:18] because these questions also included, do I know why I am
[00:13:22] learning and does it make sense and do I... learn useful
[00:13:26] things, and Polish students somehow answer with great eagerness
[00:13:29] that they don't have such
[00:13:32] a feeling, I think, when I was taught differentials,
[00:13:36] I was also convinced that it would be useless to me, I would give in a bit to
[00:13:40] such a
[00:13:43] pressure and a bit of such, it's very tempting to complain about
[00:13:46] school, we really like to complain about
[00:13:50] school and from this complaining about school we all have convictions, if I were to
[00:13:53] ask you...
[00:14:25] feel so bad, which is also
[00:14:28] in PISA studies, and indeed there is about
[00:14:31] a great sense of loneliness
[00:14:34] among teenagers, they admit that they
[00:14:37] feel extremely lonely, I think this is something we should
[00:14:41] consider, the cause of such brutal behavior
[00:14:44] then, I think if, well, I think it
[00:14:47] is one of the causes, undoubtedly so, okay, Doctor, because
[00:14:51] the first clues led all potential...
[00:14:56] healers of these situations to the internet, it's all to
[00:14:59] blame, isn't that too simplistic an approach, because you know,
[00:15:03] well, terrible things happened in the environment of these young people,
[00:15:06] covid happened, we seem to ignore it, and for two
[00:15:10] years these children were in a very strange situation, there is
[00:15:13] a war next door, that too can somehow affect these young people,
[00:15:17] or is it just the internet? I definitely think that the devastation of the pandemic and the mandatory
[00:15:21] withdrawal from social relations, in some sense to survive,
[00:15:25] certainly leaves a mark, and we are paying the price for it,
[00:15:29] certainly the war, which is still ongoing, which for decades, well, we had not
[00:15:32] known in this part of Europe the recourse to such an extreme form of violence as war,
[00:15:36] that certainly... everything has an impact,
[00:15:40] right that it is too shallow to blame everything only on the internet, I think
[00:15:44] today we must somewhat overcome such a mental barrier
[00:15:47] of functioning in a hybrid environment, it is already
[00:15:49] socio-digital, especially this applies to the environment and the ecosystem
[00:15:53] of platforms in which young people function, because it is not the entire internet,
[00:15:57] it is about social platforms, so-called communicators,
[00:16:00] gaming platforms, streaming platforms, in which of course they themselves,
[00:16:04] themselves may not be... there is of course also a lot of good, we must put this in
[00:16:07] parentheses here, but they also promote,
[00:16:11] due to the fact that they constitute an algorithmic environment, algorithms, i.e. automated
[00:16:15] systems for selecting and delivering information, which
[00:16:19] favor toxic content, we have this, well, I would
[00:16:22] not like to refer to many provisions here, but there is a scientific consensus
[00:16:25] on this matter, yes, we have a lot of extremist, extremely brutal content,
[00:16:29] the biggest, the biggest distributors of even pornographic content to children, I
[00:16:32] remind you, below 15 years of age, delivering such content is a
[00:16:35] crime, these are platforms. Social, it seems to me that mentally for
[00:16:39] my generation, you are all very young, but I want to
[00:16:43] say that for mine it is mentally difficult to understand, right, that a social platform,
[00:16:46] by the way, a paradox, the editor said that young people feel lonely, almost
[00:16:50] half of young people functioning on social platforms
[00:16:54] simultaneously feel lonely, now into this, of course,
[00:16:57] in certain dimensions of this network, also
[00:17:00] dangerous environments just creep in, dangerous content, very dangerous relations and
[00:17:04] contacts, I would not like to scare anyone here, but what is happening
[00:17:11] is not unique in terms of the situation in Europe today, and we probably
[00:17:15] got a bit fixated on these three specific places and events, but
[00:17:18] earlier, not so long ago, some boy attacks his
[00:17:22] friend with an axe, that somehow dissolved for us, you don't observe
[00:17:26] that, I have been observing it for some time quite
[00:17:30] precisely, that is, arrests of minors, young and very young people, and
[00:17:33] also very young adults, have been going on in Poland for quite a
[00:17:37] long time already in Europe, and of course this dynamic has greatly
[00:17:40] accelerated, the pace has greatly accelerated, in fact the accumulation of these
[00:17:44] events raises questions and should raise questions, because
[00:17:47] Europol, institutions dealing with security,
[00:17:51] including the Internal Security Agency, but also Myfi, the American FBI
[00:17:54] in fact, in order not to cope simply with
[00:17:57] the phenomena of a new wave of radicalization, which is less
[00:18:01] ideological, which is very variable ideologically, it obviously uses in our part
[00:18:04] of Europe very strongly these neo-Nazi narratives. In cases
[00:18:08] of some arrests in recent months, we also deal with this, but this is probably
[00:18:12] only a means to an end, there are many such, I would call
[00:18:15] them, well, functions like that, we don't even have terms to describe it,
[00:18:19] right, specialists are describing it now, and services are describing it as the phenomenon
[00:18:23] of COM or de-COMmot, community, but it has its own logic, Mr.
[00:18:26] Editor, here I want to say, you actually
[00:18:29] probably said it or it was visible in the material, that is, constant
[00:18:32] presence, showing such digital narcissism,
[00:18:36] streaming, documenting also often criminal
[00:18:39] or brutal acts, it is quite typical for
[00:18:43] certain circles now, it's not about it being controlled by one person, because I would be
[00:18:47] very far from that, but there are certain environments that
[00:18:50] operate on these networks, which simply promote
[00:18:54] this style of functioning, and it is today, contrary to appearances, more than less
[00:18:58] popular among young people, now you asked
[00:19:01] about regulations, it seems to me that these regulations are essential, that is, we cannot blame
[00:19:05] everything on the school either, because school, we place huge
[00:19:09] hopes in school, that is, on the one hand we complain, but on the other hand, when there is a problem, it's
[00:19:12] school, so but school cannot
[00:19:15] cope alone, school is very important, Doctor, wait a moment, we will come back to this
[00:19:19] topic in a moment, but let's then slip through the regulations you mentioned and
[00:19:23] through Polish politics, because the Polish system saw a battle over a law
[00:19:27] that the President originally vetoed,
[00:19:30] if he had not vetoed it, do you think this would not have happened, is there
[00:19:34] any connection between, I leave the floor to you, I don't want to...
[00:19:49] so that you are also aware, it now has two parts, right, it increases the competence,
[00:19:53] we must give the floor to politicians, I just wanted to say that it would certainly reduce the scale, but
[00:19:57] we must also remember one thing, the Digital Services Act applies only to the largest
[00:20:01] digital platforms and only in a certain part, Mr. MP, in your
[00:20:04] opinion, do you...
[00:20:15] of course I count on the special services to detect the source of these
[00:20:18] attacks, they happened in a short time,
[00:20:22] they were concentrated mainly in Masovia, very similar to
[00:20:25] each other, this is a great task for the special services, not all of them succeeded,
[00:20:28] some the services managed to detect earlier, we know that the services, based
[00:20:32] on current regulations, have already arrested over 100 people,
[00:20:35] so this is one thing, what I saw here
[00:20:39] on the screen, this simply vulgar attack of the Minister of Digital Affairs on the
[00:20:43] President, blaming him, this is something
[00:20:46] unbelievable, this is such a bad example that is given...
[00:20:58] something unheard of, first of all, secondly, once again I want to refer to what
[00:21:01] happened, the services, it's not that the Polish state is
[00:21:05] powerless, the services,
[00:21:08] the courts, the services, and the police have
[00:21:11] regulations that allow them to react,
[00:21:14] of course, perhaps not sufficient for today's times, well,
[00:21:18] because the editor said, at the bottom when it comes to Poland, to
[00:21:24] end of this list of this bad ranking, about the bond with
[00:21:27] school, what bond is there, ladies and gentlemen, because I also wanted
[00:21:30] to say in this school in Ostrołęka, I know this school
[00:21:33] complex number 4, it's very, for decades
[00:21:37] since World War II nothing happened there, it's, it may
[00:21:40] not have existed since World War II, I'm exaggerating, but it's not like it's
[00:21:44] some school where teachers are attacked,
[00:21:46] the school
[00:21:49] and they set him on fire, he is burning,
[00:22:27] this man, young people record him on
[00:22:31] their phones, our president believes that censorship
[00:22:35] on the internet,
[00:22:38] I have the impression that a certain social responsibility and
[00:22:42] such simple, completely strange small insinuations directed
[00:22:46] at the president, Ms. simply. "Dear
[00:22:53] editor, if it were so that a penal
[00:22:56] provision, that a penal provision eliminates evil from our
[00:22:59] lives, it would be, well, truly super, great, I have the
[00:23:03] impression, having been in parliament for many years, that
[00:23:06] constantly, repeatedly we are tightening regulations in various
[00:23:09] fields, there are even accusations that constantly, when something happens,
[00:23:13] then God, let's tighten that regulation, but excuse me, because here we
[00:23:16] don't have, but here we are not dealing with a situation where..."
[00:23:50] I interpret Krzysztof Gawkowski's words as a cry
[00:23:53] simply, that these regulations are essential to protect
[00:23:57] not only children and young people, but to protect all
[00:24:00] vulnerable users
[00:24:03] of this digital world, we are all of them today
[00:24:07] and
[00:24:09] the Minister of Digital Affairs, Deputy Prime Minister Gawkowski, had to
[00:24:13] divide this legal act into two parts at one point, because
[00:24:16] the President chose, excuse me, and I will talk about it.
[00:24:20] He chose a political
[00:24:23] calculation, in which he put a false,
[00:24:27] in my opinion, this is my opinion, conviction about
[00:24:29] what freedom is,
[00:24:32] against security in the world, because today we must
[00:24:36] clearly state, in the real world we have more
[00:24:39] regulations that protect us as citizens, and why
[00:24:43] should it be that in this other world, and for young people essentially the
[00:24:47] same world, we have different responsibility, we don't have...
[00:24:51] I will ask the editor, do you think that if the president
[00:24:55] had signed that law, something would have changed, is it strictly
[00:24:58] related to these tragedies? Well, it would certainly
[00:25:01] start to change, it is important that we finally notice
[00:25:05] this other reality, in which
[00:25:09] we all live, not just young people, that is, the internet,
[00:25:12] meaning we would be two steps ahead, and perhaps
[00:25:15] we would be able to stop some streaming
[00:25:19] and sharing of content
[00:25:23] that affects the imagination of young
[00:25:26] people, because there is so much of this content, well, there are studies that
[00:25:30] indicate that
[00:25:33] very popular true crime content is among
[00:25:36] teenagers, and there
[00:25:39] is a thin line between
[00:25:43] simply publishing and simply
[00:25:46] reporting, and glorifying violence, with this...
[00:25:50] we are dealing with on the internet, and this must be
[00:25:53] limited, a single person will not limit it,
[00:25:56] neither a teacher in school, nor even the Minister of Education
[00:26:00] alone, nor parents who...
[00:26:02] even if they censored
[00:26:06] and took away children's phones, only the
[00:26:09] state apparatus can do this, well, this must be
[00:26:13] done, not to cynically exploit situations
[00:26:16] and show outwards that adults don't
[00:26:20] care about what is happening there, well, Mr. MP, what do you think
[00:26:24] was the President's logic, that these statements completely, as
[00:26:27] all of us adults care, whoever is in their right mind, we care, no one
[00:26:30] pretends not to care, because we care very much,
[00:26:34] because a human life, these knife attacks are simply moving the entire
[00:26:38] Polish society, that's first of all, secondly,
[00:26:41] once again I want to state very clearly, there are
[00:26:44] many provisions of the penal code regarding hate
[00:26:47] speech, criminal threats, terrorism and all these
[00:26:51] things that happened, which allow for many years of
[00:26:54] imprisonment for this, preventively and not
[00:26:57] punishing, if it comes to prevention, then
[00:27:00] the ABW has the right, that within one hour
[00:27:03] it can immediately force a streaming
[00:27:07] platform to remove content, these regulations already exist
[00:27:11] today, and recently the ABW has
[00:27:13] reacted that way, in many cases it has reacted that way, what's
[00:27:17] more, we also have information flow from abroad, an example
[00:27:20] from a few days ago, where from Sweden we received information about our
[00:27:24] young man who was sitting on this and preparing for
[00:27:27] such, for such crimes, so let's not exaggerate that
[00:27:31] we don't have regulations to
[00:27:45] make him respect it, or in your opinion, doctor, do we not need the law? It is critically important,
[00:27:48] it is critically important because criminal law is not enough, of course criminal protection is
[00:27:52] important. Now there is also a complex law protecting against deep fakes, deep nudes,
[00:27:55] i.e., the head of the committee for children and youth, which is also
[00:27:59] often used for blackmail, that is precisely criminal protection, criminal protection. But the MP
[00:28:03] lists institutions that have such tools available today, which
[00:28:06] also say today that it is not enough to immediately block content,
[00:28:10] about this mechanism also only within the framework of operational control, however, well, these are
[00:28:14] exceptions with court consent and so on and so forth, however, we are talking about
[00:28:18] this
[00:28:21] is without consent, terrorist, yes, but a lot of the content we are talking about, they
[00:28:24] do not, there is no face
[00:28:27] of terror, they do not exhaust the scope of the pre-trial
[00:28:31] thing, that of course. it is critically important for us. I want to say that I am surprised
[00:28:35] that I was also one of the people and circles that strongly appealed,
[00:28:39] but that it is de facto, these are laws that are minimal regulation,
[00:28:42] really. We very much hoped for further ones, for the creation of a European system for preventing
[00:28:46] sexual abuse of minors from public institutions as well, which will take
[00:28:50] responsibility for it. This is a big struggle in Europe, they are linked, but
[00:28:53] DSA was the first minimal regulation, in fact
[00:28:56] a certain, I would say, hysteria stirred up, also political, around
[00:29:00] this is absolutely incomprehensible to me. Doctor, we must
[00:29:03] stop, because we have participants in this discussion who have the right to
[00:29:07] participate in it. Do you have any questions for our guests? Please, but
[00:29:10] I appeal for short and well-addressed questions.
[00:29:14] Good day, Paweł Ewerli, New Generation Youth Association. I have a question
[00:29:18] for the doctor, perhaps you can turn around in that chair.
[00:29:22] Thank you, because I didn't know if I could, sorry.
[00:29:25] Many reports show that juvenile
[00:29:28] perpetrators of brutal attacks, even before committing the crime... violence
[00:29:41] with hatred, and therefore what are
[00:29:45] the most important symptoms that
[00:29:48] parents should notice, that a child
[00:29:51] is undergoing a process of digital radicalization, before it is too late
[00:29:55] and what should they do about
[00:29:57] it? I can answer forward, but
[00:30:00] of course, there are many of these symptoms and one should always
[00:30:04] notice a change, but to notice a change one must be observant, a change in behavior compared to
[00:30:08] what was natural. However, when it comes to these groups you
[00:30:10] mentioned, well, based on the reports
[00:30:14] I already mentioned, including foreign services, including Europol, including
[00:30:18] the Polish Internal Security Agency, certainly all behaviors that, for example,
[00:30:21] indicate, well, first of all, withdrawal from social relations, a lot of time spent online,
[00:30:25] secondly, of course, they must combine with each other,
[00:30:28] non-obvious things, for example, symbolism, strange symbolism
[00:30:32] that appears, it doesn't have to be 666 symbols
[00:30:34] , strange symbols, these symbols may also appear as
[00:30:37] engraved or marked on the body, also unfortunately with
[00:30:41] sharp tools, various inscriptions may appear,
[00:30:44] strange packages may appear at home, or for example, so-called swatting,
[00:30:48] which also happened and very often in Europe happens today, namely,
[00:30:52] to the port, I know that at home the police suddenly appear
[00:30:55] because there is information about
[00:30:58] domestic violence, but there are no grounds for it, the accumulation of this
[00:31:02] events may
[00:31:05] indicate that something wrong is
[00:31:08] happening.
[00:31:12] Who else would like to speak? Please.
[00:31:16] Good evening, Stanisław Radzieszewski. I would like to address
[00:31:19] the secretary of the Ministry of National
[00:31:23] Education. Why is there no promotion of Polish
[00:31:26] history? The lack of such campaigns and rigid teaching
[00:31:29] causes deep historical ignorance
[00:31:32] among youth in general, even
[00:31:35] general Polish history of statehood, nation, and
[00:31:39] homeland.
[00:31:45] this question, because I think many parents are also watching us, and
[00:31:48] it's always worth
[00:31:51] emphasizing what can cause our concern. I would say
[00:31:55] that quite the opposite, meaning that even tomorrow
[00:31:59] in the Senate, work will continue on a bill that
[00:32:02] is supposed to increase the participation, for example, of school
[00:32:06] trips financed concerning history,
[00:32:09] patriotism. We will discuss with
[00:32:12] the initiators of this project, also in
[00:32:16] the minister's program space, there is space,
[00:32:18] even civic education, which
[00:32:22] has been functioning since last school
[00:32:24] year as a compulsory subject in upper secondary schools, also has
[00:32:28] references to contemporary history. I agree
[00:32:32] with you that history is very important, because it teaches
[00:32:35] us that we should learn from
[00:32:38] mistakes and that we should also pay
[00:32:41] attention to how human dignity is treated,
[00:32:45] in what way, because history is also about relationships, it is
[00:32:49] a very important subject also concerning relationships.
[00:32:52] So, you fundamentally disagree with the statement that history is being removed from
[00:32:55] Polish schools? Thank you for that question, but no, I do not
[00:32:59] agree with that thesis, but it is
[00:33:00] a fact.
[00:33:03] It is not a fact, Mr. Member, I myself was
[00:33:06] called as a parent, I was told that you
[00:33:10] think we should, excuse me very much, ladies and gentlemen, but we need to clarify
[00:33:14] something. Well, this is not now, wait a minute, Minister,
[00:33:18] in the opinion of the MP, the curriculum has been cut by
[00:33:21] how many hours did you say, three hours? No, in my opinion, by
[00:33:24] 30%, but because I, as a parent, was also at school
[00:33:28] at a parent-teacher conference, where we were told that the government had withdrawn a huge
[00:33:32] amount of history teaching material in one
[00:33:34] subject.
[00:33:38] But Mr. MP,
[00:33:40] the curriculum for history has been cut. I really don't like
[00:33:44] to argue this way, because I believe that aggression in
[00:33:47] politics also contributes to
[00:33:49] this.
[00:33:52] Usually not, however, the argument, but the argument, Mr.
[00:33:55] MP, but the argument under the title of government,
[00:33:59] majority or government in
[00:34:02] large numbers, these are not arguments. I have already dealt with
[00:34:05] legal acts that the president vetoed, after which
[00:34:09] it turned out the curriculum remained, yes, because fortunately
[00:34:12] it is a regulation and the president cannot veto it,
[00:34:16] however, with legal acts that, for example, the
[00:34:20] president vetoed, having no idea, because I saw the justifications, what
[00:34:23] is inside, we will not improve the situation or the well-being of children
[00:34:27] if we imprison them in school for even longer, because you are kind of heading towards that,
[00:34:31] to perhaps come back on Saturday, perhaps on Sunday they would still
[00:34:34] go to school, if we supervised them like that, they wouldn't think
[00:34:37] about those knives, I don't think so, let's try.
[00:34:41] Good morning, Krzysztof Padzik, Civic Coalition New Generation. I have a question for the
[00:34:45] minister. We have a compulsory school
[00:34:48] education for children. Should we perhaps consider
[00:34:52] an obligation
[00:34:54] for parents to participate in certain types of
[00:34:57] training for parents about what
[00:35:01] situations to pay attention to in normal life and in
[00:35:05] online life? Thank you. This is,
[00:35:08] this is also, this is also an important question, because I must tell you
[00:35:12] that there is an increasingly wide range of offers for parents. Both in schools, but
[00:35:16] also regarding mental health prevention in
[00:35:19] healthcare facilities of the first and second level
[00:35:22] of reference. The Ministry of Digitalization also organizes such
[00:35:26] workshops on the digital world. I will take this opportunity to appeal
[00:35:29] to parents to use this free
[00:35:33] knowledge, which is also implemented by specialists
[00:35:36] in schools. This is a very difficult topic, because
[00:35:40] it would truly have to be
[00:35:43] an obligation, primarily related
[00:35:47] probably to the family and guardianship code.
[00:35:50] I think so, as a mother, I know that
[00:35:54] it is sometimes very difficult for parents to feel that school is
[00:35:58] also a common part for them, and I think that the best way, as
[00:36:01] I see it as a representative for health, for mental
[00:36:05] health, these schools function, regarding the well-being of students, in which
[00:36:09] a really excellent mechanism of cooperation with parents has been developed.
[00:36:12] This is also an appeal to schools, so that...
[00:36:36] just to play with a knife in the lives of their classmates, something
[00:36:39] must be pushing them to it, before they start to
[00:36:43] radicalize, or watch content on the internet, something must be
[00:36:47] happening. What should
[00:36:50] be done with the state,
[00:36:53] with the state?
[00:36:56] What should be done to make these children
[00:36:59] they may be bullied at school or have problems at
[00:37:02] home? What should be done about it? This is an excellent point, Mr. Editor, because
[00:37:06] well, you know, yes, the first most susceptible
[00:37:10] people are precisely those who are experiencing violence, whether it is domestic violence in
[00:37:14] various forms, or peer violence, people
[00:37:17] who are experiencing a mental health crisis, people who function in
[00:37:20] the autism spectrum should also unfortunately be surrounded with special care, because they are very
[00:37:24] easy to manipulate in this regard, especially in...
[00:37:27] the environments you spoke about earlier, and yes, these data unfortunately show
[00:37:31] that. I just want to say also that the overrepresentation of arrested people, here
[00:37:35] specifically British data, on charges of preparing terrorist
[00:37:40] these criteria. So I would answer
[00:37:43] this way, very briefly, because the editor will soon say that we need to finish this. To the point, of course,
[00:37:47] but I want to say that here, no, no, it's very good that the editor also mentioned
[00:37:51] the results regarding PISA socio-digital competencies. Meaning everything begins and
[00:37:55] ends with competencies, which we wisely call comp.
[00:38:27] is detecting a young person's challenges and supporting
[00:38:31] them at the very beginning. Ladies and gentlemen, there is a question
[00:38:35] that people my age would probably like to ask you:
[00:38:38] how much has school changed? Because maybe it's a bad example, but
[00:38:42] it probably captures the essence of this
[00:38:45] issue. If in my school, when I was in
[00:38:49] elementary school, a teacher, not even the principal, a teacher, wanted to check what was in
[00:38:52] my backpack, she would do it without any problem. Today, a teacher
[00:38:55] would go to court, perhaps. something like that, and there are more of these examples.
[00:38:59] School has changed a lot, the student's attitude towards the teacher is completely different,
[00:39:03] and the teacher's towards parents, not to mention, they are on a completely different side than they were
[00:39:06] before, but I wouldn't talk about discipline, though,
[00:39:10] because you're referring to discipline, I'm talking about
[00:39:14] attitude towards the teacher, I'd rather talk about trust and probably about the
[00:39:18] goal, that is, school has really gone too far in
[00:39:21] the direction of a preparatory course for a future profession, for
[00:39:25] studies, for future
[00:39:27] life, and has somewhat abdicated its role as a place
[00:39:30] where people do things together and simply
[00:39:34] develop in a broader aspect.
[00:39:37] We now have a good moment, because
[00:39:41] there's a demographic decline, we could rethink how
[00:39:44] to structure this school so that it would
[00:39:46] actually
[00:39:49] be a better place,
[00:39:52] simply more developing and less
[00:39:56] like that...
[00:40:05] just skills, not necessarily just skills, not necessarily
[00:40:08] about
[00:40:11] this matter. You were a teacher, Mr. Member, so you probably see these differences. Yes, I was a history
[00:40:14] teacher, I must correct this. Indeed, not 30%, I checked the regulation of September
[00:40:18] 1, 2024, history in high
[00:40:21] schools and technical colleges was reduced by 20%.
[00:40:23] Mr. Member, every subject, not
[00:40:27] history, and it's important in which direction
[00:40:31] literature, school
[00:40:34] has been
[00:40:37] , I believe that one should not
[00:40:41] leave a young person to fend for themselves. There is a chance
[00:40:44] precisely in the demographic niche
[00:40:47] for time and teaching history, and Polish
[00:40:50] language, and education, and tutorship. School should
[00:40:53] also have these educational functions. We should return to...
[00:41:13] adults who are fighting for power over the mind and soul
[00:41:16] of a child, it must be a space where children feel simply
[00:41:20] safe and yes, we need the authority of a teacher
[00:41:23] as this guide.
[00:41:25] PISA, legislation can change something in Polish schools in such
[00:41:29] a direction that we avoid such images and statements. In our
[00:41:32] SMS poll, 75% are convinced that yes, it can work,
[00:41:36] 25% that no, on platform X, it's the other way around, although exactly half,
[00:41:40] 49% believe it won't help,
[00:41:43] 51% believe
[00:41:46] it can work. Thank you very much for the meeting and the discussion, too short
[00:41:50] as always, especially in such matters. Thank you for your comments,
[00:41:53] see you.
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