TVPINFO — Pytanie dnia
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[00:00:12] Good evening, everyone. Justyna Dobroszoracz and welcome to today's question. With me and with you is
[00:00:16] the chairwoman of the Pegasus investigative committee, Magdalena Sroka,
[00:00:19] also a member of the Polish People's Party. Good evening, good evening,
[00:00:23] Mrs. Editor, good evening, everyone. Over 2 years of the committee's work and
[00:00:26] I must admit, I think no committee has had such a
[00:00:30] yours. Was the truth more shocking to you
[00:00:34] than the reports of
[00:00:38] independent media? I
[00:00:40] part at am in the comfortable situation of also knowing the classified
[00:00:43] material gathered by the committee, and there
[00:00:46] are indeed such cases described
[00:00:49] that would absolutely shock everyone
[00:00:52] who would familiarize themselves with this topic.
[00:00:56] Pegasus, the Pegasus committee is a committee that
[00:01:00] had the most problems, it touched upon the most sensitive
[00:01:03] topic, which is surveillance, that is, taking over the lives
[00:01:07] of Polish women and men. It was a system that intruded into our
[00:01:10] lives with force. What
[00:01:13] is in this classified part, we will discuss what you reported today
[00:01:17] for several hours, and the MPs reported
[00:01:20] your findings, but also this classified part. Since we brought up
[00:01:24] this topic, are there names there? Does the committee know the names of
[00:01:28] public figures who were under surveillance, about whom... for example, we still don't know? The committee
[00:01:32] analyzed several examples to show how the entire
[00:01:35] mechanism worked, but in the classified part there will be names
[00:01:38] that have not yet appeared, and parliamentarians
[00:01:42] will hear about it during the classified parliamentary session. Does it
[00:01:45] also concern journalists? Were journalists
[00:01:47] under surveillance? And here I must make
[00:01:51] a comma or a period, I cannot say what is in the
[00:01:55] classified part of the report, but the names that are there will
[00:01:58] probably surprise more than one politician who will hear it at
[00:02:02] this Sejm session. I neither deny nor
[00:02:05] confirm. Member of Parliament, Chairwoman, the report reveals
[00:02:09] that Pegasus could not be used against numbers registered, for example,
[00:02:13] in Russia, China, North Korea, Israel, or
[00:02:16] Belarus. So I will ask this question: so what? So this
[00:02:20] system could not catch any serious
[00:02:22] spy? Well, politicians from PiS today
[00:02:25] are trying very openly, even with great
[00:02:28] certainty, to talk about the spies they caught. However, no, they did not
[00:02:32] have the possibility to surveil numbers that
[00:02:35] came from Russia, Belarus, Korea, North, from other
[00:02:39] countries that simply did not work. When activating
[00:02:42] the Pegasus system, they were deactivated. So these are
[00:02:45] nonsense stories told by the gentlemen from Law and Justice. Today
[00:02:49] they are talking about it and trying to pull the wool over our eyes, but
[00:02:52] in fact, they did not have such possibilities. It was in a sense
[00:02:56] an alibi for Law and Justice, but I will ask directly, did the government
[00:03:00] of PiS secretly buy Pegasus, we know it was for
[00:03:03] spying, but certainly only critics of the government? Was it
[00:03:06] intended from the beginning, do you have such certainty after these
[00:03:09] difficult months of hearings, some witnesses had to be
[00:03:13] brought in, others never appeared before the committee, was
[00:03:16] this thesis, which appeared in many journalistic materials, still from
[00:03:20] the time of the PiS government, was it
[00:03:21] confirmed?
[00:03:24] Various people were under surveillance
[00:03:27] and today we say directly that
[00:03:30] they interfered with what opposition politicians
[00:03:34] were doing, politicians who spoke out loudly,
[00:03:37] opposed the government, not only politicians, but also prosecutors,
[00:03:41] judges, lawyers, these were
[00:03:44] people who were opposed to the previous government, but
[00:03:48] it was not only such people, we are talking about
[00:03:51] several hundred people against whom the Pegasus system was used, currently
[00:03:55] the National Prosecutor's Office, team three, is conducting
[00:03:58] an investigation due to...
[00:04:01] against whom
[00:04:08] the system was used, however, subsequent people, with
[00:04:11] subsequent weeks, months, learn that they
[00:04:15] were victims in the Pegasus case,
[00:04:18] but they do not make it
[00:04:21] public. They have the right to do so, and that must be
[00:04:25] respected. Let's wait for the investigation to conclude. Currently,
[00:04:29] seven people have been charged and an indictment has been filed
[00:04:32] against one person. The next
[00:04:35] people, we filed further notifications today regarding the possibility
[00:04:39] of committing a crime. During our work, we filed notifications
[00:04:42] against the heads of the CBA,
[00:04:45] ABW, SKW services. These gentlemen have already been
[00:04:49] charged, and now I expect that we, as a committee,
[00:04:52] doing our part, that is, politically presenting and examining
[00:04:56] the whole matter, today the prosecutor's office will take over, and then
[00:05:00] draw up indictments, and we, as a society, will be able to
[00:05:03] observe court proceedings
[00:05:06] and court decisions at the end, whether guilty or
[00:05:09] not, all those who, in our political
[00:05:13] opinion, broke the law. The case of the Prime Minister's
[00:05:16] daughter and Mr. Prime Minister
[00:05:19] Tusk's wife caused a public outcry a few
[00:05:22] months ago. Were they wiretapped? It is never
[00:05:25] the case that the people against whom the operational control system is used
[00:05:29] are the only people who are wiretapped. If such
[00:05:32] a system was installed on Roman
[00:05:36] Giertych's phone, and he talked to various people
[00:05:39] around him, then those people were also...
[00:05:48] I will say more about this matter in the classified
[00:05:52] the classified session of the Sejm. We know that they rummaged through those phones, this
[00:05:56] Pegasus, one could indeed say, was a spectacular
[00:05:59] tool in its operation, but
[00:06:02] did you perhaps find any information that politicians
[00:06:06] or people dangerous to the then government were also
[00:06:10] wiretapped in real time, was there someone in
[00:06:13] to this? These are
[00:06:15] already
[00:06:19] something that is essentially irrelevant, what matters, however, is the fact
[00:06:22] that the system was not fully
[00:06:26] , all its elements, within the protective zone of the Central Anti-Corruption
[00:06:29] Bureau. To my great
[00:06:33] surprise, these were not the premises
[00:06:35] that I remember from my time in service, these were premises
[00:06:39] where, for example...
[00:06:52] shows that not only was this system under
[00:06:55] the control of an Israeli company,
[00:06:58] the manufacturer, which had authorization codes,
[00:07:00] which had administrative
[00:07:02] codes for this entire system, but also one of the
[00:07:06] modules was permanently located in Israel. Today, PiS politicians
[00:07:09] are trying to say and tell
[00:07:13] that the data was transmitted with the highest standards of encryption, which is
[00:07:16] absolute nonsense, because what do we need encrypted data
[00:07:19] for if the administrator,
[00:07:22] the Israeli company,
[00:07:25] during system updates, during
[00:07:28] technical error fixes, has access
[00:07:31] to this tool, and operational controls are constantly ongoing, meaning
[00:07:35] they are wiretapping at the same time? This is all about us and now,
[00:07:38] MP, we will continue
[00:07:50] a scandal, but rather a state crime, what
[00:07:53] you have just described. But I wanted to ask you,
[00:07:57] how did you get to it, because it was a letter from the ABW, there was
[00:08:00] a problem to publicize it, to reveal it, because I heard such
[00:08:04] unofficial information that you had a hard time getting that expertise,
[00:08:08] to reveal to the public the fact that the
[00:08:11] state did not really know who had control over it in the end,
[00:08:15] well, could anyone have it? We first
[00:08:18] turned to the National Prosecutor's Office to
[00:08:21] appoint experts and examine this tool, which was still
[00:08:25] in the Central Anti-Corruption Bureau, to
[00:08:29] appoint a team of specialists who could
[00:08:32] answer such a question. It took a long time, in the meantime,
[00:08:35] we received such a partial analysis, which directly
[00:08:39] showed that one of the modules was located in Israel.
[00:08:42] This already showed that there was no full control over
[00:08:46] the system. Just before the end and
[00:08:49] the presentation of the report to you, we received a strictly confidential
[00:08:52] document, which is
[00:08:55] an analysis, which also
[00:08:58] refers to these inspections that were
[00:09:01] carried out in the Central Anti-Corruption Bureau, and there are
[00:09:05] details. Part of the materials was declassified by the decision of the Prosecutor General
[00:09:09] and handed over to the committee, which is why today I can speak
[00:09:12] directly, it is not true that
[00:09:15] a foreign company did not have access to this data,
[00:09:18] it did, whenever it wanted. It is
[00:09:21] appalling that there were people who, contrary
[00:09:25] to what the services themselves said at the beginning
[00:09:28] of this whole story back in
[00:09:31] 2017, that this is a dangerous tool, that we
[00:09:34] should not use it, that we can use other
[00:09:38] tools, that there were those who decided to
[00:09:41] allocate funds for the purchase of this system,
[00:09:45] funds that should have been used for victims of crimes, that
[00:09:48] there were such politicians who made
[00:09:51] a political decision, because it was first and foremost a political decision,
[00:09:55] to acquire such a system. Ziobro was brought before
[00:09:59] the committee, he himself admitted that he was the initiator, but
[00:10:02] today the committee revealed that there was also a meeting with
[00:10:05] Mariusz Kamiński in the corridor of the Prime Minister's office. If you
[00:10:09] had to tell us all, looking at these proofs and...
[00:10:16] who actually came up with this idea? The decision
[00:10:20] was made at the junction of the Ministry of Justice,
[00:10:24] the service coordinator.
[00:10:37] The European Parliament also conducted such an analysis regarding Pegasus and
[00:10:41] wiretapping in various countries. And did you check if in other
[00:10:45] countries these countries also did not have control over
[00:10:48] this system? Or only in Poland was this
[00:10:51] control handed over to an Israeli company?
[00:10:55] that several European Union countries also used this
[00:10:58] tool, first, they did not break the law, first,
[00:11:01] they used it as they should, because let's remember,
[00:11:05] the Israeli company itself disconnected the possibility
[00:11:09] of using this system in 2022
[00:11:13] for the PiS government, meaning that PiS
[00:11:16] lost the ability to use this tool, so following their
[00:11:20] line of thinking, they deprived the services of such
[00:11:23] capabilities. Isn't this absurd? It is absurd, they simply
[00:11:27] broke the law when
[00:11:29] using this tool, not only did they circumvent the law
[00:11:33] by misleading the courts,
[00:11:35] courts that analyzed the requests that came
[00:11:39] to them, first they didn't know at all that such
[00:11:42] a system existed, that it had such and no other capabilities, it was not
[00:11:46] just a system that tapped phone calls made
[00:11:50] through a mobile phone, it was a system that
[00:11:53] had access to our... it could turn on the camera and
[00:11:57] microphone at any moment of the day, whether
[00:12:00] we are in bed at night, or in the toilet, excuse
[00:12:04] my expression, but to illustrate it, it was not
[00:12:08] a tool that was understood by the courts as a tool for
[00:12:12] operational control. Well, I heard about this
[00:12:15] today at the committee very widely that
[00:12:19] you are disproving the narrative that the courts agreed to
[00:12:22] everything. I remember when the case broke out...
[00:12:36] cases in the district court, only 40 applications were
[00:12:39] dismissed, but 4000 cases, that is a colossal number,
[00:12:43] so the system was still used to
[00:12:47] track criminals, or are you saying there were some
[00:12:50] spectacular cases that, thanks to Pegasus,
[00:12:53] were... I don't know how they were revealed, these
[00:12:57] are questions that should go to the prosecutor's office. The prosecutor's office at the very
[00:13:01] beginning decided not to disclose the lists
[00:13:04] of people against whom the system was used, so I would not
[00:13:08] want to rely today on speculation, on what we know
[00:13:11] behind the scenes, or what we can infer from what we heard.
[00:13:15] Today I rely on facts, and today the material
[00:13:18] that the committee managed to gather
[00:13:22] provides powerful grounds for not only the former
[00:13:26] heads of services to be charged, but also other
[00:13:29] people who directly used this system in
[00:13:33] each individual case, but also politicians
[00:13:37] who are responsible for it. This is really
[00:13:40] very serious, powerful material, which I am
[00:13:44] convinced will serve the prosecutor's office, and then the courts
[00:13:47] in court cases. We know that Mariusz Kamiński, of course, during the Law and
[00:13:51] Justice era, controlled the services, he ignored
[00:13:54] the investigative committee. He did not appear, although you call him,
[00:13:57] I quote one of the MPs, the architect of this entire
[00:14:01] Pegasus system, but was he ever questioned
[00:14:04] by the prosecutor's office? Because I know that you could use such
[00:14:08] a route, that since an MP does not appear, he cannot be
[00:14:11] brought in because he has immunity, then perhaps the investigators will
[00:14:15] question him. Was Mariusz Kamiński questioned anywhere in
[00:14:18] the Pegasus case? We submitted a request
[00:14:22] for him to be questioned on our behalf...
[00:14:36] that materials from the interrogations of one of the gentlemen are in the classified materials of the committee, they are classified, but we know that Maciej
[00:14:39] Wąsik, because one of the MPs revealed this today, and I am asking about Mariusz
[00:14:43] Kamiński, he was not interrogated, no, he was not
[00:14:46] interrogated, because at this moment he does not have the status
[00:14:50] of a suspect. If he has such a status, the
[00:14:53] decision will be made then.
[00:15:02] "fools organize a grim cabaret," that's what you
[00:15:06] presented today. Well, what
[00:15:09] are they supposed to say? Most of the gentlemen who spoke have
[00:15:13] been charged. For me, these are people who can tamper with evidence, because they are
[00:15:17] suspects, both Mr. Bejda, former head of the
[00:15:20] service, and Michał Woś, and I think that every
[00:15:23] subsequent person who so loudly tried
[00:15:27] to discredit our work, we as a committee met for the first time in history
[00:15:31] with such a situation, that at the moment when
[00:15:34] the decision was made to appoint the committee,
[00:15:38] the entire Sejm voted, but a moment later they got so scared that everyone
[00:15:41] decided not to come to the committee meetings,
[00:15:45] while the courts imposed fines of almost 50,000
[00:15:48] PLN on such people. Przemysław Wipler was also on this
[00:15:52] committee, vice-chairman,
[00:15:56] then disappeared, because I understand that you,
[00:15:59] MP, were waiting to see if he would be granted
[00:16:01] access to public information, and what
[00:16:05] finally turned out was that he did not.
[00:16:15] he did not receive a so-called security clearance, the possibility of
[00:16:18] access to strictly classified
[00:16:22] materials. I do not know, this is the information
[00:16:26] I have received in its entirety from the Internal Security Agency,
[00:16:29] what was the basis for this decision. I think
[00:16:33] that is a question for the agency,
[00:16:35] however...
[00:16:38] "I had such a possibility at some point to submit an
[00:16:41] application to the head of the Sejm Chancellery for temporary
[00:16:44] access for such a possibility
[00:16:46] for the MP, also the vice-chairman, because he was
[00:16:50] on the presidium, I did not apply, because
[00:16:53] I believe that there are moments when
[00:16:56] you have to listen to your intuition, and
[00:17:00] today, when... Did you have any reasons for suspicion, I mean,
[00:17:04] I understand it was before the crypto affair, that Przemysław Hipler
[00:17:07] might be taking some information from the committee? The Internal Security
[00:17:10] Agency confirmed that he does not provide
[00:17:13] a guarantee for a person who should
[00:17:17] have access to classified information. He has access to
[00:17:20] information up to the "secret" level, this results from the act on the exercise
[00:17:23] of an MP's mandate, but he did not receive
[00:17:26] such a clearance
[00:17:30] and I did well that I didn't ask for such temporary
[00:17:34] access. But your intuition, you were a police officer, it comes from something.
[00:17:38] That's why I ask, from what? Sometimes it happens that such intuitions come,
[00:17:41] if there are people whom you don't fully
[00:17:44] trust, which the Internal Security Agency confirmed, then you must
[00:17:48] proceed very carefully, which is why MP Wiepler never
[00:17:52] had access to strictly confidential documents at any stage of the committee's
[00:17:55] work. Sławomir Mentzen recently mocked female police officers
[00:17:59] in service, well, I'm asking you, you were there for many years, but he did
[00:18:02] not take the fitness test, he did not stand up,
[00:18:06] he did not take up the challenge. Why? What do you think? Because
[00:18:09] he is such a person who is strong in words, and when
[00:18:13] it comes to it, he simply cowers. Of course, it's not
[00:18:16] absolutely about a physical fitness test, because the MP
[00:18:20] may not be a person who is fully
[00:18:24] fit, like officers. It's about the fact that
[00:18:27] MP Mentzen decided to mock women who
[00:18:30] decided to take responsibility for the safety of other
[00:18:33] people. He only has the courage to insult
[00:18:36] people in social media, these women who
[00:18:39] joined the service have the courage to take responsibility for the health
[00:18:43] and lives of citizens and I will
[00:18:46] not allow anyone to
[00:18:49] insult Polish women in such a way, who truly
[00:18:53] carry out their duties
[00:18:55] with 100%
[00:18:59] dedication. That is why I submitted a motion to the parliamentary
[00:19:02] ethics committee to punish MP Mentzen, and we, on the
[00:19:06] committee,
[00:19:15] well yes, but you can always change the rules of the
[00:19:18] game, if there is such a problem that
[00:19:21] some people don't want to admit it, but women in
[00:19:25] uniform, MP, because this is a narrative
[00:19:28] that Confederation MPs have been hinting at in social
[00:19:31] media for some time, do they have it easier than men? No,
[00:19:34] absolutely, it's a matter of easier, harder, I
[00:19:38] have often encountered such an opinion in the services, even
[00:19:41] while working, and it only took a moment
[00:19:44] for everyone who worked with me to
[00:19:47] know that it didn't matter whether I was
[00:19:51] a woman or not, it was about the task and about the completion of the assigned
[00:19:55] task. Women in the services perform very
[00:19:58] different tasks, they hold very different
[00:20:01] positions, they don't always have to be strong women who go out on
[00:20:05] the street and intervene, there are also those... who do that,
[00:20:08] however, there are also other tasks that cannot
[00:20:12] be performed only by women, we live in such times,
[00:20:16] discrimination based on gender
[00:20:20] is simply unacceptable, so please, let's not harass
[00:20:23] or discourage women from joining the services or the
[00:20:26] police or the army, because really, recently
[00:20:29] I spoke with the Minister of National
[00:20:31] Defense, women who are
[00:20:35] soldiers today. Władysław Kosiniak Kamysz says
[00:20:39] directly that they perform tasks that many men
[00:20:42] would not be able to handle, but again there are tasks for men and
[00:20:46] they perform their tasks in other ways.
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[00:27:36] Good evening, it's 22:45,
[00:27:39] 112, crime magazine Rafał Skurski,
[00:27:42] welcome. The appeal process of the angel
[00:27:45] of death from
[00:27:46] Toruń has begun.
[00:27:51] It's December 2021, Maciej B deliberately
[00:27:55] causes a fire in a high-rise building to kill 68-year-old
[00:27:58] Mrs. Maria.