TVRIN — broadcast
20261012 123000 UTC
496 transcript segments
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[00:00:00] also encourages
[00:00:02] previously, many the government to then not only utilize the instruments
[00:00:05] available domestically but also attract the involvement of
[00:00:08] parties who are also interested in this, like that. Okay, I'll go
[00:00:12] to Mas Hidayat. Mas Hidayat, how can the government
[00:00:16] the law enforcement ensure that the handling of forest and land fires
[00:00:19] 2015, many of them were does not only focus on extinguishing the fires, as Mas Ogi said, but also
[00:00:22] prevents recurrent fires every year?
[00:00:30] the previous topic regarding how
[00:00:32] in fact, from 2020 to
[00:00:34] 2024, the strengthening of
[00:00:38] regional commitment and development within
[00:00:41] the ASEAN region has included the ASEAN Haze
[00:00:44] Monitoring System version 2.0, which Mas
[00:00:47] Ogi also mentioned, and I mentioned at the beginning
[00:00:50] that the ASEAN Agreement diplomacy covers three
[00:00:54] things: prevention, monitoring, mitigation, and emergency
[00:00:58] response. Then, second, how
[00:01:01] our process has been in the field. Currently,
[00:01:05] we are definitely strengthening it continuously until
[00:01:08] now. And tomorrow, we
[00:01:12] are also planning to go to the various points
[00:01:16] that are of concern to the President,
[00:01:18] particularly in the locations mentioned earlier,
[00:01:22] the Tanjung Puting National
[00:01:26] Park and also various locations that
[00:01:30] really need special attention. Also, various
[00:01:33] elements or government officials in the field
[00:01:37] are also moving, and as I mentioned earlier, there are
[00:01:39] 69,190
[00:01:41] ground task forces, and they consist of TNI,
[00:01:44] Polri, BPBD, Manggala Agni, and also
[00:01:48] community groups caring for fires, and also various
[00:01:52] other elements. Secondly, we continue to fight
[00:01:55] for planes and also
[00:01:58] helicopters. We use large aircraft for OMC, patrols, and
[00:02:02] helicopter water bombing. Until now, they are still
[00:02:05] being deployed in various locations
[00:02:08] where water bombing is necessary.
[00:02:11] When helicopters cannot approach,
[00:02:15] we use ground
[00:02:18] the law against people who are task forces, which number in the tens of
[00:02:20] thousands. The Ministry of Health also encourages and
[00:02:24] provides support in terms of medical
[00:02:27] equipment and various other forms of support. So, I think
[00:02:30] the importance of various elements in the field, including
[00:02:34] local governments, Forkopimda, working together, is still
[00:02:38] our homework. Since June until
[00:02:41] now, we are still fighting in the field, and
[00:02:45] of course, in various collaborations, not only in the field
[00:02:48] but also in discussions with
[00:02:52] experts, and discussions with various cross-ministerial
[00:02:55] and institutional elements. This is important to strengthen
[00:02:58] so that we can resolve
[00:03:02] forest and land fires in 2026 as quickly
[00:03:04] as possible. Okay, I'll go to Pak Wahyu. Pak Wahyu, in
[00:03:08] some cases, public attention on
[00:03:11] forest and land fires is focused on hotspots, but land management
[00:03:15] issues and human activity also need to be investigated. How should
[00:03:19] the government strengthen oversight
[00:03:21] to communication between so that prevention doesn't stop at patrols and extinguishing, Pak
[00:03:26] not only its name should be Wahyu?
[00:03:28] This is a note that if there is an institution
[00:03:32] that is quite focused, it is important
[00:03:35] to look at its function before it is disbanded. Why
[00:03:38] is that? Firstly, in the context of peatland ecosystems,
[00:03:42] the function and rewetting are inseparable.
[00:03:45] So, if the approach is not
[00:03:49] decrees as exempted by experts, they might not know
[00:03:52] that if there is a canal, it means that efforts are underway
[00:03:55] to dry it out. If it can only be dried first, then it can
[00:04:00] cannot be burned. Secondly, this can also be seen in the context of granting concessions. If we
[00:04:04] look, for example, throughout last September alone,
[00:04:07] 30% of the fire sources were
[00:04:11] from
[00:04:14] institution, such as the Peatland the plantation sector. This means that the Ministry of Forestry cannot stand alone, but
[00:04:17] the responsibility in the context of permits also lies with the Ministry
[00:04:21] of Agriculture and the Ministry of ATRBN, because
[00:04:24] permits outside forest areas, administrative jurisdiction
[00:04:27] that falls under the Ministry of Forestry is...
[00:04:30] outside of that ministry, it falls under the Ministry of ATR for land matters,
[00:04:34] and plantation permits fall under
[00:04:37] the Ministry of Agriculture. Now, in the context of law
[00:04:41] enforcement specifically regarding forest and land fires, it
[00:04:44] could actually be done long before
[00:04:47] the forest and land fires occurred. Many things can be checked, for example,
[00:04:50] the ministerial regulation in the context of plantations regulates the type and
[00:04:54] height of fire towers, for example,
[00:04:57] that the forest fire team
[00:05:09] back at previous law enforcement
[00:05:12] is absolutely essential. So, there's no need to wait for guilt to be proven,
[00:05:16] if the forest fires are within their concession, they will be
[00:05:19] held accountable. It just depends on whether they want to be asked
[00:05:22] nicely and admit their guilt, or if
[00:05:25] the government sues them, as in previous cases. If
[00:05:29] we look at lawsuits from
[00:05:31] won by the government. They have many deposits, but then only
[00:05:35] one or two companies pay.
[00:05:39] The irony is that those with a history of forest fires are still burning
[00:05:42] "repeatedly, even though it is something that
[00:05:46] is relatively easy to predict. What's even
[00:05:48] sadder is that after the repeated damage to the peatland
[00:05:52] ecosystem, when the
[00:05:54] rainy season comes, the threat of
[00:05:57] floods increases. Peatland ecosystems can absorb 1300%
[00:06:01] of water. We create modeling for forest fires
[00:06:04] or modeling in the context of floods. That's what happened
[00:06:08] during the last El Niño, after the big fires
[00:06:11] in 2019. Several areas
[00:06:14] in Kalimantan, even South Kalimantan, almost all
[00:06:17] of its districts and cities intersected with KHG, experienced
[00:06:20] floods. So,
[00:06:24] we cannot then rely solely on
[00:06:27] ground response and extinguishing.
[00:06:30] What's rather terrifying, I want to show the fact that if
[00:06:34] the fire occurs in peat, it is almost impossible
[00:06:38] to extinguish. As soon as the
[00:06:42] fire is small, it is often underground. Water bombing once or
[00:06:45] twice will also cause even more
[00:06:49] smoke. 3 days of rain ago in South
[00:06:52] Sumatra, after that, it got even darker.
[00:06:56] So, in the end, we can no
[00:07:00] longer just deal with
[00:07:04] forest fires when they occur. The effort must be afterwards, the responsibility
[00:07:08] must also be after this. The context of law enforcement
[00:07:11] becomes a note. Because often, after the
[00:07:15] forest fires of 2015, 2019,
[00:07:18] 2023, phases where the dry season is longer or
[00:07:22] El Niño, the law enforcement
[00:07:25] efforts just pass by without any forced efforts to
[00:07:29] collect, without any forced efforts to not grant new
[00:07:32] permits, without any evaluation.
[00:07:35] Even if there have been large forest fires in peatlands,
[00:07:39] strategic projects should also not be carried out on peatland
[00:07:42] systems, and the failure rate is very high if
[00:07:46] it is not accompanied by drying efforts. The consequence is
[00:07:49] forest fires. If such conditions are left, the
[00:07:53] acidity level makes many projects related to agriculture, whether
[00:07:57] sugarcane, rice, or palm oil,
[00:08:00] have a high failure rate. We once conducted a study and took
[00:08:04] soil samples from one block of 200,000 hectares; the suitability
[00:08:07] of agricultural land was only 1%.
[00:08:10] So, especially in the context of peatland ecosystems, where that study
[00:08:13] was conducted, because this
[00:08:17] ecosystem also stores a lot of carbon,
[00:08:21] as soon as it is exposed,
[00:08:24] the fires drag on, and if that is accompanied
[00:08:27] by an increase in ISPA, pyritic peatland,
[00:08:31] even without being burned, as soon as it
[00:08:34] is exposed to oxygen and oxidizes, it becomes quite
[00:08:37] toxic. That's why if we walk in
[00:08:41] peatland ecosystems,
[00:08:44] the temperature we feel becomes hotter
[00:08:47] compared to forests on mineral soil.
[00:08:51] So, I think this
[00:08:53] is a momentum to not only focus on
[00:08:57] inter-state coordination but also on law
[00:09:01] enforcement, evaluation of existing concessions, and evaluation of existing
[00:09:04] policies.
[00:09:07] It happens repeatedly in subsequent years.
[00:09:10] Alright, we'll ask Mas Hidayat later about how law enforcement
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[00:13:25] Thank you for staying with us on Indonesia Bicara. And viewers, you have
[00:13:29] just witnessed Indonesia's diplomacy in handling forest and land fires
[00:13:32] that have occurred, and of course, the decrease in hotspots is a
[00:13:35] development that deserves attention, but it does not automatically mean
[00:13:39] that the forest and land fire problem is solved. The next challenge is to ensure that
[00:13:42] the perpetrators of the burning are prosecuted, the damaged areas are restored, and
[00:13:46] diplomacy brings about real change. What is the direction of the government's
[00:13:49] policy? I will go back to Mas Hidayat
[00:13:52] of course, Mas Hidayat. What
[00:13:55] are the concrete results of the government's diplomacy that can
[00:13:58] be measured at this time, and what are the next targets to
[00:14:02] reduce the impact of this cross-border haze, and how
[00:14:06] about law enforcement against perpetrators of forest and
[00:14:10] land burning that often occurs, which Mas
[00:14:13] Wahyu
[00:14:15] mentioned earlier?
[00:14:17] Alright, thank you, Mas Wahmi. As I mentioned earlier,
[00:14:21] and also as Mas Wahyu mentioned,
[00:14:26] handling forest and land fires is not only about emergency
[00:14:29] response, but we also need to consider
[00:14:32] law enforcement. Law enforcement
[00:14:36] is a very central aspect when
[00:14:39] we want to explain that the
[00:14:42] triggers of forest and land fires are not
[00:14:45] only natural, but there are also negligence, both human
[00:14:49] negligence and individual human negligence,
[00:14:52] and also, of course, whether
[00:14:56] intentional or unintentional. These are some reports that have been submitted
[00:15:00] to the law enforcement aspect to the National Police,
[00:15:03] there are 247 reports and
[00:15:06] also, burned concessions were also
[00:15:09] mentioned by Pak Wahyu, there are
[00:15:13] 33,514
[00:15:15] law enforcements until now, in accordance with
[00:15:19] President Prabowo's directive,
[00:15:22] law must be enforced, and also
[00:15:25] sanctions must be given, whether administrative sanctions or
[00:15:29] criminal sanctions. These are also some points until now, there are
[00:15:32] 1990 individual suspects and also
[00:15:35] 97 police reports
[00:15:37] for corporations. So, we hope that we can all monitor
[00:15:41] this together. Pak Wahyu had some notes
[00:15:45] regarding how the law enforcement process
[00:15:48] works, and many people are certainly asking about
[00:15:53] carried out in handling
[00:15:56] these roots. This is what we need to
[00:15:59] emphasize, law enforcement is also a concern, and we
[00:16:03] hope that law enforcement and also,
[00:16:07] Pak Wahyu also said that the government must
[00:16:10] also supervise how this law enforcement process
[00:16:14] is transparent and also
[00:16:17] sustainable. This is our note, and we are also doing
[00:16:20] evaluations. And
[00:16:22] this is our momentum. I also believe that every
[00:16:26] forest fire disaster
[00:16:29] can be evaluated and we can also make good changes.
[00:16:33] That's it, Mas. Okay, I'll go to Mas Ogi. Mas Ogi,
[00:16:36] how can law enforcement against perpetrators
[00:16:39] of forest and land burning strengthen Indonesia's
[00:16:43] credibility in the international community? Is transparency
[00:16:47] in the legal process and investigation results also important for environmental
[00:16:51] diplomacy, Mas? First, I want to say
[00:16:54] that we focus on forest and land fires first. In my opinion,
[00:16:58] the handling of forest and land fires is something mandatory,
[00:17:01] and why is it mandatory? Because it is part of fulfilling international
[00:17:05] obligations.
[00:17:07] As I said earlier, Indonesia is a member of the
[00:17:11] ASEAN Agreement in
[00:17:14] 2002. Inside it are listed the obligations
[00:17:18] of our country. If we refer to
[00:17:21] Article 4, paragraph 3 of the ASEAN Agreement,
[00:17:24] it states that member countries must take
[00:17:28] legal and administrative actions. The bottom
[00:17:31] line is that, in other words,
[00:17:34] if we want to fulfill international obligations, especially
[00:17:38] in the case of forest and land fires that then cause
[00:17:42] cross-border smoke pollution, then
[00:17:45] the approach is not only an administrative approach but also
[00:17:48] legal approaches. One of them is to
[00:17:52] enforce
[00:17:55] suspected of being involved in burning, including
[00:17:58] corporations, if the elements are
[00:18:01] met. In other words, if we
[00:18:04] talk about handling forest and land fires, it is not just about
[00:18:08] putting out the fire, it is not just about
[00:18:11] preventing the smoke from crossing
[00:18:15] borders, but also comprehensively looking at
[00:18:18] this problem more broadly,
[00:18:22] which is to extinguish the fire,
[00:18:25] then we create a prevention system for the future,
[00:18:29] because as mentioned earlier, forest fires are not something new
[00:18:33] in our country. They have happened repeatedly in 2015-2019, and today,
[00:18:36] I think this is very important. So, these
[00:18:40] steps are very important and form a unity that must
[00:18:43] be implemented because that is also a
[00:18:47] message contained in the ASEAN Agreement,
[00:18:50] that legal and administrative actions must go hand in hand.
[00:18:54] So, handling to overcome the fire,
[00:18:58] meaning overcoming the hotspots and
[00:19:01] extinguishing them, also preventing
[00:19:04] forest fires from occurring in the future, then we also have to ensure
[00:19:08] that the recovery of the environment
[00:19:12] and ecosystem happens in the future, because these fires have caused environmental
[00:19:16] and ecosystem damage and destruction. So, in the future, we also need to think about
[00:19:19] how to restore the environment and ecosystem,
[00:19:23] and also to think about how to protect
[00:19:26] affected communities. So, it's not only focused on the environment,
[00:19:30] but also the people must be considered. Then also,
[00:19:34] the alleged perpetrators must also be considered. So, if I
[00:19:37] conclude, there will be three levels of stages that
[00:19:41] must be carried out by the Indonesian government. First, in
[00:19:44] the domestic context, which is
[00:19:47] to extinguish the hotspots,
[00:19:50] then prevent the spread of
[00:19:54] the fire, prevent the impact of the smoke from crossing
[00:19:58] national borders, then provide protection for affected
[00:20:02] communities, and also ensure that the surrounding
[00:20:05] environment is not affected. The second approach is, of course,
[00:20:09] international cooperation, in accordance with the
[00:20:12] message in the ASEAN Agreement. So, in
[00:20:15] today's situation, I think it is very appropriate
[00:20:19] for us to "expect" assistance, so that the problem of
[00:20:23] forest and land fires does not drag on
[00:20:27] because the impact, as I have already conveyed, is not
[00:20:30] simple. The impact is very significant; there are health
[00:20:34] issues, there are also disrupted economic activities. Not
[00:20:38] only Indonesia, but also other countries that are members
[00:20:41] of the ASEAN Agreement. The third approach is law enforcement,
[00:20:45] as already conveyed by Mas
[00:20:48] Wahyu and Mas Hidayat earlier, that law enforcement is
[00:20:52] one of the important keys to handling the problem of
[00:20:56] forest and land fires. Law enforcement that is impartial and targets
[00:20:59] anyone who is suspected of
[00:21:03] setting fires, including corporations. Corporations should not then
[00:21:07] disappear from the legal radar.
[00:21:11] I think that's it. Can there be intervention from neighboring
[00:21:14] countries? So, for example, if there's an issue with law enforcement,
[00:21:17] like one person sets a fire
[00:21:20] and gets a short sentence, can neighboring countries intervene
[00:21:24] and say, "This is too lenient, it should be harsher?" How about that?
[00:21:27] Well, I think in that context, intervention
[00:21:31] is certainly not allowed, because the
[00:21:34] authority of a country to enforce
[00:21:37] laws against someone within its territory, including
[00:21:41] imposing sentences on someone within its territory, is a very fundamental
[00:21:45] principle. This means there is a territorial
[00:21:48] principle, which states that a country has the right
[00:21:52] to apply its laws to anyone
[00:21:55] within its territory, and it should not be interfered
[00:21:59] with regarding the sentence. In that context,
[00:22:03] other countries should not intervene.
[00:22:06] However, Indonesia has an obligation, because in this case, the impact
[00:22:10] is on other countries, on Malaysia, on
[00:22:13] Brunei, on the Philippines. This means Indonesia has an obligation, I think,
[00:22:17] to then report the progress of handling forest
[00:22:20] fires, not only the progress in handling
[00:22:23] or extinguishing the fires, but also
[00:22:26] how law enforcement is carried out against
[00:22:30] parties who are involved or suspected of
[00:22:33] committing such acts. So, that progress needs to be reported so that
[00:22:36] Indonesia's credibility in the international community,
[00:22:40] especially in handling cases of
[00:22:44] forest and land fires, then becomes good.
[00:22:47] Because we don't want to have another
[00:22:51] forest and land fire incident, and then the impact spreads to other
[00:22:55] countries, and then when
[00:22:58] there is law enforcement, that law enforcement is not shown transparently
[00:23:02] to other countries. What does that mean? We want to build
[00:23:05] an international perception of Indonesia,
[00:23:08] especially in the context of forest and land fires,
[00:23:12] to be a good perception, that Indonesia is very serious
[00:23:15] about handling its forests,
[00:23:18] its lands, its fires, but also very
[00:23:22] serious when there is an indication that these forest and
[00:23:25] land fires are carried out by certain individuals or
[00:23:29] certain corporations. So, I think that international perception needs
[00:23:32] to be maintained so that the international community or other countries do not
[00:23:36] see Indonesia as not serious about the problem
[00:23:39] of forest and land fires. Okay, Mas Wahyu,
[00:23:43] how can the public assess the seriousness
[00:23:46] of the government in handling forest and land fires, as
[00:23:50] Mas Ogi said? What indicators should be regularly disclosed,
[00:23:53] starting from the area burned, the condition of the peat, law enforcement,
[00:23:57] and of course, environmental restoration
[00:24:13] there is a company that is sanctioned,
[00:24:16] disclosed, because administrative sanction decrees
[00:24:20] determine how much area must
[00:24:23] be restored, how much of its permit or operation
[00:24:27] is frozen in certain areas.
[00:24:30] Unfortunately, the Secretary General of the Ministry of Forestry's
[00:24:34] decree No. 71/2025 classifies administrative sanction
[00:24:39] information. If we look at the principles of public
[00:24:42] information, anything related to the public,
[00:24:45] outside of strategic matters related to the national defense system,
[00:24:50] be exempted information. So, that's one
[00:24:54] thing, including, actually, this is also for notes and
[00:24:58] input that we have provided in writing. If there is a new
[00:25:04] and Mangrove Management Agency, which is planned,
[00:25:07] it must have authority over concessions, because many
[00:25:11] are not careful.
[00:25:14] When BRG became BRGM, the supervision
[00:25:17] authority over concessions was removed. That's one thing. The
[00:25:21] second is, if many policies are found
[00:25:25] to increase the risk of forest fires and
[00:25:28] land fires, especially in peatland ecosystems, an open evaluation
[00:25:32] must be conducted. Third, let's not forget
[00:25:36] that it is important
[00:25:38] in the context of law enforcement that the next
[00:25:42] responsibility is restoration. If we look at
[00:25:45] the clause on absolute liability in Article 88 of
[00:25:48] the Environmental Protection and Management Law, its
[00:25:52] content concerns environmental damage and environmental
[00:25:56] restoration. If we look
[00:25:59] carried out by the Forest Fire Task Force or, for example,
[00:26:02] in the context of Sumatra were seized
[00:26:06] and then handed over to state-owned enterprises, which then
[00:26:09] managed them again. in the context of an eco-type
[00:26:13] of monoculture, the same large-scale plantations, even though if
[00:26:16] it is then proven to cause
[00:26:19] damage and especially in this context
[00:26:22] forest and land fires will occur continuously, the first
[00:26:26] effort must be ecosystem restoration because it has been
[00:26:30] calculated repeatedly, for example. The World
[00:26:33] Bank has only twice carried out at least
[00:26:37] in the last decade, in its country report, in the
[00:26:40] context of the Indonesian economy, only twice related to forest and land fires
[00:26:44] in the 2015 fires and in the 2019
[00:26:47] fires.
[00:26:49] The numbers, if compared to
[00:26:53] the profits of monoculture plantations, the restoration efforts
[00:26:56] and environmental losses are many times greater.
[00:27:00] I think it's interesting
[00:27:03] that Mr. Hidayat reminded us that the key word in the context of law enforcement
[00:27:07] is transparency, including at each stage
[00:27:10] of the process. Open data not
[00:27:13] only makes it easier for the public but also for
[00:27:16] law enforcement. We often, for example, communicate and
[00:27:20] discuss with BKAKUM.
[00:27:22] Their access to data is often also hampered
[00:27:25] by bureaucracy. The easiest way is to open it
[00:27:29] to the public, because, for example, it is shown that
[00:27:32] in the context of mining and forestry,
[00:27:36] open data does not correlate with business
[00:27:39] competition, because that is concession data.
[00:27:42] So if there is a regional government preparing spatial
[00:27:45] planning, it no longer needs to for handling that
[00:27:49] see whether it is a peat ecosystem or not, whether
[00:27:52] it is then included in forest areas or not. This bureaucratic
[00:27:55] process and closed data
[00:27:58] make it very difficult not only in the context of
[00:28:01] disasters. Its handling becomes difficult, but also in the context
[00:28:05] of spatial planning governance, it often overlaps. I think that's it.
[00:28:09] Thank you, to Mr. Hidayat, lastly,
[00:28:12] what is the government's communication strategy to deal with public anxiety due to
[00:28:16] haze, especially in the areas most directly affected,
[00:28:25] strategy, we have a media and information sub-division below
[00:28:29] that continues to monitor and also
[00:28:32] coordinate various information between ministries, institutions, and
[00:28:36] also to the public. One
[00:28:39] of the challenges that must be faced in our
[00:28:42] disaster management, I always say in various discussions, there
[00:28:46] are communication, coordination, and collaboration aspects.
[00:28:49] This communication has become
[00:28:52] a challenge and we see in various ministries and institutions
[00:28:55] such as the Ministry of Communication and Information, BNPB,
[00:28:58] TNI, Ministry of Forestry, KLH and also. The
[00:29:02] Coordinating Ministry for Political, Legal, and Security Affairs and also the Communication Agency of the Government of the Republic of Indonesia also
[00:29:06] provide or convey messages,
[00:29:10] communication dissemination and, of course, including
[00:29:13] transparency in the future regarding law
[00:29:16] enforcement and also how
[00:29:19] the processes on the ground related
[00:29:23] local governments and also communication to
[00:29:27] the community continue to be carried out in various
[00:29:30] ministries and institutions. Up to now and also
[00:29:34] for this forest and land fire, it is commanded by the Coordinating
[00:29:38] Minister for Political, Legal, and Security Affairs and there is also a sub-division including the media
[00:29:41] and information sub-division so that messages can also
[00:29:45] be conveyed, including what I mentioned earlier
[00:29:48] that there are concerns and reports
[00:29:51] from the community, especially in the area of
[00:29:54] Tanjung Puting National Park, and that has been directly reported to the president
[00:29:58] and also, as stated earlier by Mr.
[00:30:01] General, to directly respond
[00:30:05] to how reports in the community
[00:30:08] and also researchers and
[00:30:11] experts. We hope there is a national
[00:30:15] agency that is currently
[00:30:17] eh
[00:30:19] the president.
[00:30:31] And this also involves various campuses, various
[00:30:35] experts, and institutions as well, so that it can be directly
[00:30:39] conveyed by the President directly to
[00:30:42] the relevant ministries and institutions
[00:30:45] is more in agreement that it is not only in the emergency
[00:30:49] phase, so we have to change the paradigm from
[00:30:52] the pre-disaster phase. If, for example, people say the pre-disaster phase
[00:30:56] or the disaster risk reduction phase, Mr.?