Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:03MUSIC
00:00:16Hello and welcome to The Context USA. I'm Sumi Somaskanda
00:00:19Somaskanda in Washington and I'm I'm Annita McVeigh in London. And
00:00:23And tonight we're focusing on the the role of intelligence sharing
00:00:26sharing between the US and Ukraine. Ukraine. As Ukraine intensifies attacks
00:00:29attacks on Russian infrastructure. infrastructure. This is a deliberate
00:00:33deliberate Ukrainian strategy to to take the war deeper into Russian
00:00:36Russian territory, to make the Russian
00:00:37Russian people really feel the impact.
00:00:40impact. A US Senate committee has has voted to hold. Former White House
00:00:43House medical adviser Anthony Fauci Fauci in contempt after he refused
00:00:47refused to answer questions about about his handling of the Covid pandemic.
00:00:50pandemic. If we were to grant him him immunity from telling the truth
00:00:53truth of what value, you know, would
00:00:55would his testimony be? Metta becomes
00:00:58becomes the latest firm to say one
00:01:00one of its AI models hacked another
00:01:02another company. This is not AI turning
00:01:06turning against us. This is AI doing
00:01:09doing exactly what it was told. On
00:01:12On our panel tonight, Leslie Shedd,
00:01:14Shedd, the President of Rising Communications Communications and Chris Meagher, Meagher, former assistant to the
00:01:18the Secretary of Defence for Public
00:01:21Public Affairs.
00:01:32Welcome to the programme. Ukraine's president has confirmed
00:01:34confirmed in the past few days that that the country has no more interceptors
00:01:38interceptors to defend itself against against Russian ballistic missile
00:01:41missile attacks, but Ukraine is continuing
00:01:43continuing to strike deep into Russia. Russia. Nearly four and a half years
00:01:47years since the full-scale invasion invasion ordered by President Putin.
00:01:50Putin. The latest targets were two two oil refineries a President Zelensky
00:01:54Zelensky says, aimed at limiting limiting the revenues Moscow is using
00:01:56using to fund the war. The Slavneft-Yanos
00:01:59Slavneft-Yanos refinery is one of of the biggest in Russia. It's been been hit before, but the regional
00:02:03regional governor described this this as the largest enemy drone attack.
00:02:07attack. The other refinery. To be be hit was the Bashneft-Novoil refinery
00:02:11refinery in the afar region even
00:02:13even further east, around 1300km.
00:02:161300km. That's 830 miles from the the border with Ukraine. President
00:02:19President Zelensky also said two two military patrol boats and shadow
00:02:23shadow fleet vessels were hit in in the Black Sea. Shadow fleet refers
00:02:27refers to tankers used by Russia
00:02:29Russia to export sanctioned oil. oil. Meanwhile in Ukraine. At least
00:02:32least ten deaths have been reported reported following the latest wave
00:02:35wave of Russian air attacks. Russian Russian drones hit an apartment block
00:02:39block in Zaporizhzhia and in cities
00:02:40cities a little further north. There
00:02:44There was no time to look at the
00:02:46the clock because the panic was overwhelming.
00:02:48overwhelming. People were screaming, screaming, running some hiding cars,
00:02:52cars, rushing out. These strikes
00:02:54strikes come years into this conflict conflict and conversations persist
00:02:57persist on what effective support support for Ukraine looks like from
00:03:01from its allies. A big part of that that is technology, weapons, air
00:03:04air defence systems and so on. But But there's also intelligence. And
00:03:08And on that, the relationship between between this Trump administration
00:03:11administration and Kyiv has been
00:03:13been mixed. Yeah. Remember that acrimonious acrimonious Oval Office meeting between
00:03:16between President Trump and Zelensky Zelensky early last year? After that,
00:03:20that, the US paused all intelligence intelligence sharing with Kyiv in
00:03:23in March, Ukraine took rapid losses losses on the battlefield before
00:03:26before President Trump relented after
00:03:29after pressure from Western allies. allies. But there are more. Positive
00:03:33Positive signs, Politico reports reports today that the intelligence intelligence sharing relationship
00:03:36relationship between the US and Ukraine Ukraine has bounced back to previous
00:03:40previous highs. They're citing various various US senators who say they've
00:03:44they've seen evidence of an improved improved agreement and believed it's
00:03:48it's helped helped Kyiv gain an advantage.
00:03:51advantage. Let's speak now. To Melinda Melinda Haring senior fellow at the
00:03:55the Atlantic Council's Eurasia Centre Centre for more on all of this. Melinda,
00:03:58Melinda, it's always good to speak speak with you. I want to start with
00:04:02with the latest strikes we've seen seen back and forth. It is clear
00:04:05clear that Ukraine is continuing continuing to strike Russia's energy
00:04:09energy infrastructure, so oil refineries refineries we've been covering the
00:04:12the last few days. The strikes on
00:04:14on Wildberries this online logistics
00:04:16logistics company, Russia's Amazon.
00:04:19Amazon. And is this strategy working?
00:04:22working? Yes, it is great to be back
00:04:23back with you. So Zelensky has decided
00:04:26decided to take the war to Russians
00:04:29Russians and they have increased increased the number of strikes in in Russia. They've the Ukrainians
00:04:33Ukrainians have hit every major oil
00:04:35oil and gas factory in the country
00:04:38country except for one. And as a a result of the precision of the
00:04:41the strikes, we're seeing that the the Russians have fuel shortages.
00:04:44shortages. They've banned the export export of diesel. Just to give you
00:04:47you one example, the Ukrainians have
00:04:50have hit Wildberries the Russian Russian Amazon at least ten different
00:04:53different times. So Ukraine is hitting hitting targets and it's hitting
00:04:57hitting with increasing depth. I I also want to ask you about this
00:05:01this reporting. We've seen about about the intelligence sharing between
00:05:04between the US and Ukraine right
00:05:06right now. What do you make of this?
00:05:11this? So I don't make much of it. it. I think the relationship between between Kyiv and Washington when
00:05:15when it comes to intelligence support support is very strong and very good
00:05:18good and has been for a while. You You can criticise Donald Trump's
00:05:22Trump's stance on Ukraine all day day long. I have my own beefs with
00:05:26with it, but he's maintained intelligence intelligence support since they turned
00:05:29turned it back on. It's been consistent. consistent. And he's also allowing
00:05:32allowing the Europeans to buy weapons weapons through the Perl programme.
00:05:35programme. And that's really important. important. That allows European governments
00:05:38governments to buy US weapons and and give them to Ukraine. But the
00:05:41the Intel support is absolutely, absolutely, absolutely crucial. Ukraine
00:05:45Ukraine is striking these targets
00:05:47targets with precision because of of us and this intelligence support
00:05:51support since that turn off last last year has been in place. You
00:05:55You know, it's interesting back in in March, we saw President Trump Trump when he was asked whether Russia
00:05:58Russia was helping Iran with intelligence intelligence in the US war with Iran.
00:06:02Iran. He said maybe, but perhaps perhaps President Putin thinks we're
00:06:05we're helping Ukraine a little bit. bit. I mean, what does that tell
00:06:08tell us about how President Trump
00:06:10Trump sees intelligence or weapons
00:06:12weapons aid to Ukraine? So President
00:06:17President Trump allegedly reportedly reportedly said gave permission for
00:06:20for deep strikes in Russia. He is
00:06:23is comfortable using intelligence intelligence support to back up America's
00:06:27America's national interests and and to back up its allies. And I
00:06:29I think we see President Trump growing growing increasingly frustrated with
00:06:33with Putin. You know, it's 2 or 3 3 steps forward and then a step back.
00:06:36back. So I see evidence that his
00:06:39his position is getting stronger stronger towards Ukraine. But I think
00:06:42think President Trump is comfortable
00:06:45comfortable using our intelligence intelligence assets for our own advantage
00:06:48advantage is how I would read that that to. OK, Melinda Haring always
00:06:52always good to get your analysis. analysis. Thank you so much. Thank
00:06:54Thank you. OK, let's bring in our
00:06:57our panel Leslie Shedd president president of Rising Communications Communications and Chris Meagher,
00:07:00Meagher, former assistant to the the Secretary of Defence for Public
00:07:04Public Affairs Chris. Intelligence Intelligence sharing is, of course,
00:07:06course, by its very nature a much
00:07:09much more covert aspect of war. But
00:07:12But given the strikes that we're we're seeing, these deeper strikes strikes into Russia by Ukraine, is
00:07:16is it possible, do you think, to to quantify the role of intelligence
00:07:20intelligence sharing in the war right
00:07:22right now? Oh, well, it's unmistakable
00:07:26unmistakable that it's having a positive positive impact. You know, the Ukrainians
00:07:29Ukrainians certainly have capabilities, capabilities, but they don't have
00:07:33have capabilities like the United United States. And they wouldn't
00:07:36wouldn't be able to do the targeting
00:07:40targeting for their capabilities capabilities without the United States. States. You know, we provided Intel
00:07:43Intel sharing in the last administration, administration, but there are definitely
00:07:46definitely limits to what we allowed allowed the Ukrainians to do with
00:07:49with that information in order to to limit our own footprint in the
00:07:53the war. But there's no doubt that
00:07:56that this is that their ability to
00:07:58to target and to hit targets that
00:08:01that actually have a meaningful impact impact on the war and the shape of
00:08:04of the war and the direction of the
00:08:07the war is a is an asset and a benefit benefit that we're providing to them.
00:08:10them. Yeah. Leslie, I saw you nodding nodding along there. What do you
00:08:14you make of this? I mean, I was just just in Ukraine last month and while
00:08:17while I was there, we got to meet meet with President Zelensky, with with the Minister of Foreign Affairs
00:08:21Affairs and other officials. And And in every single meeting they they talked to us about the importance
00:08:25importance of this intelligence sharing sharing and how crucial it has been
00:08:27been and their long range strikes. strikes. And I think it's important
00:08:30important to note it's not just US US intelligence that's helping with
00:08:33with this. While some of these strikes strikes are being done with Ukrainian
00:08:37Ukrainian made drones, others are are being done with US made weapons,
00:08:40weapons, for example, there are several several reports out that zone Five's
00:08:44Five's rusty dagger, which is one one of those low cost, you know,
00:08:47know, easier to make cruise missiles, missiles, is actually that one blew
00:08:50blew up a semiconductor plant back back in June. And so you're seeing
00:08:54seeing a lot of really great synergy synergy right now between the United
00:08:57United States with our defence sector sector and our intelligence. Well,
00:09:00Well, Leslie, do you think President President Trump is reluctant to talk
00:09:03talk that up? He's worried to be be seen as partisan to Ukraine in
00:09:07in this. I mean, every time he's he's the only one the only president
00:09:10president that has been out on TV TV talking about how great it is is that they're making these long
00:09:14long range strikes. I don't think think that this is any, you know,
00:09:18know, secret at all. You know, like
00:09:20like was just mentioned while President President Biden certainly did provide
00:09:24provide some weapons and did intelligence intelligence sharing, he put so many
00:09:28many handcuffs on the Ukrainians Ukrainians as to how they could use use those that it really hampered
00:09:31hampered them from making these long long range strikes. And President
00:09:34President Trump right now is not not only allowing them and publicly
00:09:37publicly cheering them, he is giving giving them both the intelligence
00:09:40intelligence and the US weapons systems systems to do it. And Chris, it's
00:09:43it's not a one way street, is it? it? Ukraine is likely sharing intelligence
00:09:47intelligence on Russia with the U. U. S a but to the impact of all of
00:09:51of this, do you think do you have
00:09:52have any sense that this is creating
00:09:55creating a pressure on President President Putin in terms of any talks
00:09:59talks that might happen to try to to end this war? Yeah, absolutely.
00:10:03absolutely. I think we need to put
00:10:05put Russia on their back foot in in order to get them to come to the
00:10:09the negotiating table. You know,
00:10:11know, this became a war of attrition.
00:10:14attrition. And Vladimir Putin thought thought that he could ride out Ukraine
00:10:16Ukraine and ride out the United States. States. And I think that came in
00:10:19in large part because of Donald Trump.
00:10:23Trump. Donald Trump's wishy washiness
00:10:26washiness and capitulation to Vladimir Vladimir Putin over the course of
00:10:28of the last year and a half. But
00:10:31But I do think that, you know, putting putting the pedal to the metal, giving
00:10:35giving the Ukrainians the capabilities capabilities they need to go on offence
00:10:38offence is going to put them in a
00:10:40a better position to negotiate and
00:10:43and out for this war at the negotiating negotiating table. This war is going
00:10:47going to come to an end only when when the two sides come to a negotiating
00:10:50negotiating table. It's up to the the United States and partners and
00:10:54and allies to put Ukraine in the the best possible position to go
00:10:58go to the negotiating table. And
00:11:02And Leslie on that point as well. well. Obviously, at the moment, we're
00:11:05we're very much aware that Ukraine Ukraine has run out of interceptors
00:11:08interceptors to deal with Russian Russian ballistic missiles. But on
00:11:10on that question of the strikes that that it's carrying out deeper into
00:11:14into Russia, do you think that is is putting any significant pressure
00:11:17pressure or starting to put significant significant pressure on President
00:11:20President Putin? It absolutely is.
00:11:22is. And it is doing it in two different different ways. First of all, they
00:11:25they are targeting actual, you know, know, the lifeblood right now behind
00:11:29behind Putin's war machine. They're They're targeting energy infrastructure,
00:11:33infrastructure, semiconductor plants. plants. They're targeting locations locations that have, you know, have
00:11:37have these ballistic missiles, the the launch pads that they use for
00:11:39for them. But in addition, this Wildberries Wildberries strikes that have been
00:11:43been happening, it's not just that that Wildberries is used for logistics
00:11:47logistics to help the Russian military.
00:11:49military. This is also a lifeline lifeline of the Russian economy.
00:11:52economy. There are a tonne of Russians Russians that use that for their their small businesses in the same
00:11:56same way that Americans use Amazon. Amazon. So going after this not only
00:11:59only is putting pressure directly directly on Russia's war machine, machine, it is also putting pressure
00:12:03pressure on Russia's economy. But But Leslie, why not then why is President
00:12:07President Trump backtracked on allowing allowing Ukraine to have the licence
00:12:10licence to make those critical air air defence systems in their country?
00:12:14country? And as Chris said over the the last year and a half has gone
00:12:17gone back and forth on who he thinks thinks is responsible for this war.
00:12:19war. I mean, on the Patriots, I just
00:12:23just I honestly don't know why suddenly suddenly it's changed my understanding
00:12:25understanding from speaking with with people inside the administration
00:12:28administration is that there is a a hesitancy to make sure that we
00:12:31we have enough patriots. I think think the more people that can make
00:12:34make patriots, the better. And you you know, if there is concern about
00:12:38about if somehow Russia ends up taking taking over Ukraine, that they could
00:12:41could get access to this weapon, weapon, I think the best option would
00:12:44would be to put the plant in a place place like Germany. They've got the
00:12:47the infrastructure, they'll have have the skilled workers already, already, and it's close enough to
00:12:50to the front lines that we can get get them made as quickly as possible
00:12:53possible and get them into Ukraine. Ukraine. Chris, what do you think
00:12:56think is going to change the metric metric on this from the US perspective?
00:13:00perspective? If anything? I think
00:13:03think it's what I said earlier, you you know, continuing to work with
00:13:07with our partners and allies in Europe Europe to make sure that Ukraine
00:13:11Ukraine has the capabilities it needs needs to wage this war. I think we've
00:13:14we've seen some positive steps in
00:13:16in that direction, but we need to
00:13:18to continue to shift the war in Ukraine's Ukraine's favour so that they can
00:13:22can go to the negotiating table in in the best position possible, and
00:13:25and we can finally put an end to to this. OK, Chris and Leslie, thank
00:13:29thank you for those thoughts. We We have to take a short break. Back Back in a
00:14:33he was their friend. Paul's heart-wrenching heart-wrenching stuff that made me me feel sick. The big cases, funeral
00:14:37funeral Home horror watch on BBC
00:14:40BBC News. It might be the middle
00:14:46middle of summer, but it is still still a busy time on Capitol Hill
00:14:49Hill here in Washington. A US Senate Senate committee has voted to hold
00:14:52hold the former White House Chief Chief Medical Adviser Anthony Fauci,
00:14:56Fauci, in contempt after he refused refused to answer questions about
00:14:58about his handling of the Covid pandemic. pandemic. The infectious disease
00:15:02disease specialist faced the committee committee last week. There he was
00:15:05was grilled by senators about the the pandemic and whether he covered
00:15:09covered up its origins. But we didn't didn't learn much. Doctor Fauci invoked
00:15:12invoked his constitutional right right against self-incrimination. self-incrimination. You've likely
00:15:16likely heard it described as the
00:15:17the Fifth Amendment more than 100
00:15:20100 times. Well, former President
00:15:23President Joe Biden gave Fauci a a pre-emptive pardon on his last
00:15:26last day in office in 2025, protecting
00:15:29protecting him from federal prosecution
00:15:31prosecution for his actions between
00:15:34between 2014 and 2020. Five Doctor Doctor Fauci has argued that Kentucky
00:15:37Kentucky Senator Rand Paul was trying trying to put him behind bars. It's
00:15:41It's not clear if the vote to hold
00:15:43hold him in contempt will lead to to a criminal prosecution, while
00:15:46while the next step would typically typically be a vote on the Senate
00:15:49Senate floor. Senator Paul says he
00:15:51he intends to send the contempt resolution resolution directly to the Justice
00:15:54Justice Department. The next decision decision we have decided is we will
00:15:58will forward it. It's the committee's committee's verdict that he should
00:16:01should be held in contempt and it it will be sent. But no one said said that we won't bring it before
00:16:05before the Senate. We'll see what
00:16:06what happens over time. But this
00:16:11this is outside of the ordinary bill bill making process. So it doesn't doesn't have to go to the House,
00:16:14House, doesn't have to be signed signed by the President and really really doesn't have to go before
00:16:18before the Senate. There is some some precedent for doing it that that way, and it still may be done
00:16:22done that way. But for now, we will will hand carry this over to the
00:16:25the Attorney General. We will hand
00:16:26hand carry this to the district court
00:16:30court here in Columbia, and we will will as a committee, we have voted
00:16:33voted the majority to refer this, this, so that will be accomplished
00:16:36accomplished today. But Mister Chairman. Chairman. Doctor Fauci has said that
00:16:39that you are out to get him if you're you're circumventing the normal Senate
00:16:42Senate procedure. Aren't you proving proving his point? A million Americans
00:16:45Americans died and I think they deserve deserve to know the truth. Well,
00:16:49Well, the Republican led committee committee voted 8 to 5 on the resolution
00:16:52resolution to hold Doctor Fauci in in contempt. All Democrats opposed
00:16:56opposed it. Senator Richard Blumenthal Blumenthal told reporters after the
00:16:59the vote that serious questions had had to be asked of the Covid pandemic.
00:17:02pandemic. Management. But these motions,
00:17:05motions, he said, were not. It. It
00:17:08It is a disgrace to the Constitution
00:17:10Constitution to hold someone in contempt
00:17:13contempt simply for properly exercising exercising a constitutional right,
00:17:16right, namely the right against self-incrimination. self-incrimination. When the chairman
00:17:19chairman of the committee says his his objective in the proceeding is
00:17:23is to put that person behind bars.
00:17:26bars. And joining us now is Caitlin Caitlin Owens, a senior policy reporter
00:17:29reporter at Axios who covers health. health. Caitlin, welcome to the programme.
00:17:33programme. And in fact, you were were reporting on health for Axios
00:17:36Axios during the pandemic. And at at that point, Anthony Fauci became became a hugely well-known figure,
00:17:40figure, didn't he? Not just in America America but around the world. Tell
00:17:44Tell us more about him. Absolutely.
00:17:48Absolutely. Doctor Fauci, he is retired retired from his service now, but
00:17:52but he was in his position for decades
00:17:55decades in the US he worked through through the Aids crisis and multiple
00:17:59multiple other infectious disease disease outbreaks. But, you know,
00:18:02know, Covid was when America really
00:18:04really got to know him. He was on on the, you know, on the news all
00:18:08all the time. The I don't know if if anyone remembers, but the nightly
00:18:11nightly Covid briefings with President President Trump, Vice President Pence,
00:18:15Pence, top health officials and then then Doctor Fauci. So he you know,
00:18:19know, at first he became one of the the just the premier voices that
00:18:23that were telling Americans what
00:18:25what was happening and what to expect.
00:18:27expect. But that kind of mass goodwill
00:18:31goodwill was very short lived. Whereas
00:18:33Whereas the pandemic response became
00:18:35became more controversial and split,
00:18:38split, Americans very much bipartisan
00:18:41bipartisan lines. Doctor Fauci. Tell
00:18:43Tell us more about how that relationship relationship between President Trump
00:18:46Trump and Doctor Fauci and by extension,
00:18:49extension, with the Republican Party Party evolved. You know, so what
00:18:53what happened before last week's
00:18:56week's hearing is Republicans released released Fauci's diaries that were
00:18:59were stored on a government server. server. And so it was it's fascinating.
00:19:02fascinating. We can actually see see Fauci's real time reflections
00:19:06reflections on his relationship with with President Trump and even behind
00:19:09behind closed doors. They were up up and down. I think what's important
00:19:12important to remember that is the the pandemic moron. You know, kind
00:19:15kind of into the summer of 2020,
00:19:182020, they were two men with very very different goals. Doctor Fauci
00:19:21Fauci was a scientist. He was trying trying to address the pandemic and
00:19:24and public health. President Trump
00:19:27Trump was a politician. He was thinking thinking bigger than public health. health. And, you know, there was
00:19:30was an election coming up that year. year. And so, you know, you started
00:19:33started to see a lot of chafing between between the two men. And, you know,
00:19:36know, it spilt out into the public public about the best way to handle
00:19:39handle the virus, about what people people should be doing just about
00:19:42about personal measures. And, and, and, you know, those divides over
00:19:46over the pandemic, they only got got deeper and more partisan. And
00:19:50And Caitlin, just briefly, if you you would tell everyone why, then
00:19:54then Doctor Fauci is in front of
00:19:55of the Senate committee. Republicans, Republicans, it's been six years
00:19:59years later, but Republicans like like Senator Rand Paul, they still
00:20:03still want to talk about particularly particularly Covid origins and how
00:20:06how the pandemic got started. And
00:20:09And they feel very strongly that that Doctor Fauci lied about what
00:20:13what he knew and when about those
00:20:15those origins. And so they subpoenaed
00:20:17subpoenaed him to come before the the committee and testify and answer
00:20:20answer their questions as they investigate investigate how the pandemic got
00:20:23got started. OK, Caitlin, thank you
00:20:25you very much. Caitlin Owens from
00:20:29from Axios. Let's bring in Leslie Leslie and Chris on this. And I think
00:20:33think it's important to underline
00:20:34underline this contempt vote doesn't doesn't address that underlying allegation
00:20:38allegation that Anita was just discussing discussing there with the reporter
00:20:42reporter that Republicans believe believe that perhaps Doctor Fauci
00:20:45Fauci knew that the pandemic started started in a laboratory, not in a
00:20:47a wet market, and then misled the the public or Congress about it.
00:20:50it. Again, this contempt vote is is simply about him pleading the
00:20:54the fifth in that hearing. But, Chris, Chris, to start with you and we heard
00:20:57heard Rand Paul there say a million
00:20:59million people died of Covid. We
00:21:01We deserve to have answers. Do you
00:21:04you agree? I mean, sure, I think
00:21:09think that we need to understand
00:21:11understand as best we can how to
00:21:14to prevent something like this from from happening again. You know, I
00:21:17I thought it was really telling what what Caitlin talked about the two
00:21:20two different perspectives of the the men sort of running this Donald
00:21:23Donald Trump and Doctor Fauci, you you know, Doctor Fauci trying to
00:21:26to address it in a scientific way.
00:21:29way. President Trump handling it it because he's a politician, you
00:21:33you know, and sometimes those things things don't match up. I was at the the White House for the first two
00:21:37two years of the Biden administration. administration. We were enduring enduring the same thing. You know,
00:21:41know, it's tricky and it's complicated complicated when you're trying to
00:21:43to do the right thing and politics politics become involved. I think
00:21:46think that's what you see here, doctor
00:21:48doctor Fauci was set to testify in
00:21:50in front of a committee where the
00:21:53the chair literally said that his his goal and his mission is to put
00:21:56put this man behind bars. So why
00:21:59why would you do anything close to
00:22:02to something that might be used against against you to throw you in jail?
00:22:05jail? I don't know why it would come
00:22:08come as a surprise to anybody that that he would plead the fifth. It's
00:22:11It's complicated where we go from from here. Certainly it's going to to get wrapped up in court. I would
00:22:16would imagine one way or the other. other. And you know, I'm no expert
00:22:19expert on that side of things. But
00:22:21But you can't be surprised by Doctor
00:22:24Doctor Fauci's move pleading the the fifth when Rand Paul is out there
00:22:27there talking about how he, you know, know, deserves to be behind bars.
00:22:30bars. And Leslie, let's get your your take on this because obviously
00:22:34obviously after the pandemic, there there deserves to be, doesn't there there a sober reflection on what
00:22:37what happened and what could have have been done better in order to,
00:22:41to, you know, heaven forbid, if there's there's another pandemic, save lives.
00:22:44lives. But, you know, given what what Rand Paul has said about wanting
00:22:47wanting to Anthony Fauci to be behind
00:22:50behind bars, does that really scupper
00:22:51scupper that right from the outset? outset? Well, I think it's really
00:22:55really important to start with the
00:22:56the fact that we were misled by scientists, scientists, including Doctor Fauci.
00:23:00Fauci. When I worked for the House House Foreign Affairs Committee,
00:23:03Committee, we did an extensive review review of everything for over a year,
00:23:07year, and we wrote three reports reports on the origins of Covid.
00:23:10Covid. And within that we found just just one glaring example of the way
00:23:13way in which we were misled is that that Doctor Fauci and other scientists
00:23:17scientists repeatedly said that the the virus could not have been genetically genetically modified, could not have
00:23:21have been man made, because when when you do that, it leaves a mark
00:23:24mark on viruses. This was one of of their top arguments when they
00:23:26they were talking about how it couldn't couldn't have come from. Most scientists scientists believe this did start
00:23:30start with an. A zoonotic infection. infection. In other words, an infection
00:23:33infection being passed from an animal animal to the. American people. About
00:23:37About that because a doctor at the the University of North Carolina. Carolina. Our report found a doctor
00:23:41doctor at the University of North North Carolina by the name of Doctor
00:23:44Doctor Ralph Baric. He figured out
00:23:46out a way to modify coronaviruses
00:23:50coronaviruses in 2005 that left no
00:23:51no mark. And that same research was
00:23:54was duplicated at the Wuhan lab in
00:23:57in 2016. For years. But that. Doesn't Doesn't prove that scientists were
00:24:01were actually lying about the findings findings that they have had. Doctor
00:24:03Doctor Fauci himself has said that that he is open to the theory that
00:24:06that there was a lab leak, as you've you've said, that your committee
00:24:09committee had researched into, but but that he still believes that the
00:24:13the outbreak came from this market. market. But he lied about this fact.
00:24:17fact. He could have said yes, this this could have been manufactured.
00:24:19manufactured. There are ways to genetically
00:24:22genetically modify and create coronaviruses coronaviruses that leave no mark
00:24:25mark and instead for months and months months they told us there wasn't.
00:24:29wasn't. When there was. Doctor Ralph Ralph Baric has actually come out out and said, yeah, I've known about
00:24:33about this. They knew about this. this. I don't know why they didn't
00:24:36didn't say anything. So I don't necessarily necessarily think that Doctor Fauci
00:24:38Fauci was trying to be nefarious nefarious in his actions. I think
00:24:42think that scientists try to protect protect other scientists, and that
00:24:45that is going to be their number number one thing that they do. So
00:24:49So while, you know, I understand understand that he might feel frustrated, frustrated, he might feel attacked,
00:24:52attacked, I think that he should should have used this opportunity opportunity to go on the record.
00:24:56record. And if he believes that he he did everything right, defend himself.
00:24:59himself. He's been given this borderline borderline blanket immunity from
00:25:03from Biden. So use the opportunity opportunity both to defend yourself
00:25:06yourself and importantly, to discuss discuss what he thinks the origin
00:25:09origin of this virus came from. We We are never going to be able to
00:25:13to get over this. We're never going going to be able to make sure we're
00:25:15we're prepared for the next one unless unless we know about what happened
00:25:18happened this time. I want to give give Chris an opportunity to respond
00:25:20respond to what you've been saying.
00:25:24saying. Well, first of all, I think think if Republicans were actually
00:25:28actually interested in honest testimony
00:25:29testimony and a full exploration exploration of unresolved pandemic
00:25:33pandemic questions, they could have have offered him immunity. Covering
00:25:36Covering the testimony instead of
00:25:39of the rhetoric that that Senator Senator Paul had offered to Doctor
00:25:42Doctor Fauci in the first place. place. The second point I would make
00:25:45make is we're talking about research research and studies being done by
00:25:48by people here in the United States
00:25:51States when ultimately the only people people who actually have the answers
00:25:54answers that we need and are looking looking for are in China, and there's
00:25:58there's no way to hold those people people accountable. OK. So we can
00:26:02can speculate. We can talk about
00:26:04about science as best we can. But But yeah, Chris,
00:27:37temperatures ramping up further into into next week, hitting the 50 Celsius Celsius mark on
00:29:56means for you. Go online at bbc.com/business bbc.com/business to get the latest latest news wherever you are. Business
00:30:00Business on BBC News. Make the connection.
00:30:08connection. MUSIC
00:30:16Hello and welcome back to The
00:30:18Context USA. I'm Annita McVeigh in
00:30:20in London. And I'm Sumi Somaskanda
00:30:22Somaskanda in Washington. Later this this half hour Metta becomes the
00:30:25the latest firm to say one of its
00:30:28its AI models hacked another company.
00:30:40company. Welcome back to the programme. programme. Let's turn to the Middle Middle East now we want to take a
00:30:44a closer look at Gaza today. A few few developments there. Uganda's
00:30:47Uganda's parliament has approved approved the deployment of troops
00:30:49troops to Gaza as part of a proposed proposed international stabilisation
00:30:53stabilisation force. The Defence Defence Minister said. The move followed followed an invitation from Washington
00:30:56Washington to help secure the territory territory and monitor ceasefire