Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:13Live from London. This is BBC
00:00:15News. 12 people are killed and hundreds
00:00:18hundreds injured in a missile attack attack on Riyadh's international international airport, which Saudi
00:00:22Saudi authorities blame on the Houthis.
00:00:25Houthis. President Trump says Ukraine Ukraine needs a new leader who can
00:00:28can end the war. After President President Zelensky's criticism of
00:00:31of the US., Russia diesel deal. The
00:00:35The leader of India's Cockroach Janta Janta Party is released after protests
00:00:39protests in Delhi. Hurricane Simon
00:00:42Simon heads for Mexico, bringing
00:00:43bringing torrential rain and winds
00:00:46winds of up to 240km/h. Flash floods
00:00:49floods in central Nepal sweep away away bridges and homes as five people
00:00:53people are reported missing. And And Manchester City face Liverpool
00:00:57Liverpool later in city's first game game since being found guilty of
00:01:00of breaching the Premier League's
00:01:03League's financial rules. Hello and
00:01:12and a very warm welcome to BBC News. News. I'm Mark Logan. We're going
00:01:15going to start this hour with a major major escalation in the Middle East
00:01:18East conflict because Saudi Arabia Arabia says a Houthi missile attack
00:01:22attack at Riyadh's international international airport has killed
00:01:24killed 12 people and injured more
00:01:27more than 300. We've received these these pictures from inside the airport
00:01:30airport terminal. Reports say there there was a missile strike on one
00:01:33one of the airport gates. It's the the deadliest attack on Saudi soil
00:01:36soil in more than a decade. The Saudi Saudi authorities are calling it
00:01:39it a war crime and are promised a
00:01:41a forceful response. The airport airport has been closed and hundreds
00:01:44hundreds of flights have been cancelled cancelled or diverted for the second
00:01:47second time in less than a month. month. Schools in Riyadh have switched
00:01:50switched to remote learning for the the week. A number of Western diplomatic
00:01:54diplomatic missions, including the the UK and US, have warned their
00:01:57their nationals to stay away from from the airport. Well, the strike
00:02:00strike has been condemned by the the United Nations Secretary General
00:02:03General and by President Trump, who's who's indicated the US may join the
00:02:07the Saudis campaign against the Iran-backed
00:02:10Iran-backed Houthis. Well, you're you're going to find out, Steve. Steve. But I think it's terrible.
00:02:13terrible. Well, they're able to defend defend look, the Saudis are good
00:02:16good fighters. But I think the attack attack was a terrible thing. What
00:02:20What happened in Saudi Arabia was
00:02:22was not acceptable. Thank you. Let's
00:02:25Let's go live now to Jerusalem and and speak to our correspondent Jon
00:02:29Jon Donnison, who is monitoring events.
00:02:31events. Hi there John. The worst
00:02:34worst attack in the Gulf country country since the Iran war began.
00:02:38began. Just give us the latest on
00:02:39on what we're hearing from Riyadh. Well, look, it's
00:02:45Riyadh. Well, look, it's another another dangerous moment in a region
00:02:48region that is already fraught with with tension and conflict. So we've
00:02:51we've seen those pictures from the the airport clearly a lot of damage
00:02:55damage inside the terminal. Large
00:02:56Large plumes of black smoke rising
00:02:59rising above the building and reports
00:03:02reports that the hospitals in the the capital are overwhelmed or have
00:03:05have been overwhelmed just by the the sheer number of people injured.
00:03:09injured. More than 300. Now, the the conflict in Yemen has been going
00:03:13going on for more than a decade. decade. The civil war, and that is
00:03:17is between the Saudi backed, internationally internationally recognised government
00:03:20government and the Houthis, who are are supported by Iran. There have
00:03:24have been thousands of lives lost.
00:03:27lost. There has been a humanitarian humanitarian crisis in Yemen. But
00:03:30But in recent weeks the Houthis have
00:03:32have stepped up their attacks directly directly on Saudi Arabian soil. And
00:03:36And that, I think, is all tied into into the broader conflict that the
00:03:40the United States and Israel have
00:03:42have with Iran. You mentioned that
00:03:45that conflict with Iran at the source source of all of this. In a sense,
00:03:48sense, John, President Trump has has already said that he will resume
00:03:52resume bombing Iran after the mid-term mid-term elections, an indication
00:03:55indication of just the impact that that the Iran war is having on the
00:03:58the cost of diesel, of course. And
00:04:00And how much of an issue that is is in the mid-terms. But now, of
00:04:03of course, if the US is mulling getting
00:04:07getting involved in bombing the Houthis,
00:04:10Houthis, that could escalate that that issue again, given the Houthi
00:04:14Houthi control of Bab al-Mandab,
00:04:15al-Mandab, that other important oil
00:04:18oil strait. Exactly. And that the
00:04:22the Houthis are being used really really by the Iranians as another
00:04:24another arrow in their quiver to to try and exert economic pressure
00:04:28pressure on the United States to
00:04:30to try and get a better deal for
00:04:32for the Iranians in to try and end
00:04:35end that conflict with the United
00:04:37United States. But, you know, America
00:04:41America President Trump says he may may intervene in Yemen. I mean, I
00:04:44I think that is pretty unlikely, unlikely, certainly before those those mid-term elections, you have
00:04:48have to remember that he was re-elected re-elected promising to end America's
00:04:52America's involvement in conflicts conflicts around the world. Well,
00:04:55Well, America, under his presidency presidency this second term has been
00:04:59been directly and indirectly involved involved in three in this region
00:05:02region alone. So in Gaza, in Lebanon
00:05:04Lebanon and in Iran, I think it's it's unlikely that would go down
00:05:08down very well with US voters if
00:05:11if suddenly in the next few weeks, weeks, America was going to get directly
00:05:14directly involved in Yemen to. Yeah. Yeah. And especially given the fact
00:05:18fact that when the US did start bombing bombing Yemen last last year, it
00:05:22it was burning through about $1 billion
00:05:24billion in, in weapons and munitions munitions in that first month alone.
00:05:27alone. So perhaps reluctant to get get back involved in the melee this
00:05:30this time. Jon Donnison thanks very
00:05:32very much indeed. Let's move on to
00:05:35to Ukraine because Ukraine has continued continued to target Russian infrastructure
00:05:39infrastructure with another drone drone attack on a data centre belonging
00:05:41belonging to the Russian tech giant giant Yandex operations at the facility
00:05:45facility in Vladimir to the east east of Moscow have been completely
00:05:49completely halted. The strike comes comes after President Trump accused
00:05:51accused Volodymyr Zelensky of prolonging prolonging the war and said it was
00:05:54was time for Ukraine to elect a new new leader. Mr Trump appeared to
00:05:58to blame President Zelensky for the
00:06:00the diesel crisis, adding he'd better
00:06:02better damn well stop attacking Russian
00:06:05Russian oil refineries here. Downing Downing Street says Andy Burnham
00:06:08Burnham has spoken to Mr Zelensky Zelensky to reiterate the UK's support
00:06:12support for Ukraine in its war with with Russia. Speaking to reporters
00:06:16reporters yesterday, President Trump Trump accused Zelensky of disrupting
00:06:19disrupting global fuel supplies and and choosing not to end the war.
00:06:22war. You know what I suggest? I suggest
00:06:25suggest they get a new leader who
00:06:27who can make a deal because he could could have made many deals, but for
00:06:31for some reason he never does. And And let me go a step further. If
00:06:35If I were president, you wouldn't wouldn't have ever had that war.
00:06:37war. That war would have never started. started. There was no reason that
00:06:40that that war with Ukraine and Russia
00:06:42Russia started. It started due to
00:06:46to incompetence, should have never never started. You wouldn't have
00:06:48have lost 30% of your country already.
00:06:51already. You've lost 30% of your
00:06:53your country and you've had over
00:06:55over a million people killed between between the two of them, over 2 million
00:06:59million people killed. That's a war war that should have never started.
00:07:02started. And I think it's time for for Ukraine to get a new president.
00:07:05president. Mr president. President President Trump turning his anger
00:07:08anger at President Zelensky, who who has repeatedly called for a ceasefire
00:07:11ceasefire but not, of course, at at President Putin. Let's bring in
00:07:14in our world affairs correspondent correspondent Joe Inwood. Hi, Joe.
00:07:17Joe. Another potential Trump Zelensky
00:07:20Zelensky clash brewing. How serious serious is the situation now for
00:07:23for Ukraine, especially given reports reports that the Americans might
00:07:26might even cut off military intelligence intelligence to Ukraine if it continues
00:07:29continues to strike those Russian Russian refineries. I mean, I think
00:07:32think that's Mark what makes it really really serious. We do know that the
00:07:35the Americans they're not providing providing the material support they
00:07:37they once were in terms of hardware, hardware, in terms of resources,
00:07:40resources, but they are still providing providing intelligence support. And
00:07:43And if that were to be cut off, I I think that would be considered considered to be very, very serious
00:07:47serious indeed. Of course, the Ukrainians
00:07:49Ukrainians are still reliant as well well on American manufactured weapons
00:07:53weapons purchased and paid for by
00:07:55by the Europeans. But, you know, know, American patriots and that
00:07:59that sort of thing. And if that were
00:08:01were to be if he were President Trump Trump were out of, you know, a fit
00:08:04fit of pique to say you're not we're we're not going to sell you weapons
00:08:08weapons any more. I mean, there's there's no suggestion of that at at this point, but that's the sort
00:08:11sort of thing that would be very, very, very serious indeed. So I think
00:08:13think the Ukrainians are going to to be viewing this as something they
00:08:17they want to try and dial down the the anger on because I think yesterday
00:08:20yesterday it was interesting listening listening to President Zelensky's
00:08:24Zelensky's statement, his reaction reaction to the news that Donald
00:08:27Donald Trump was going to be buying
00:08:28buying Russian diesel. He sounded sounded absolutely furious. I mean,
00:08:32mean, you can never know what's going going on inside someone's head. But But I listened to that interview
00:08:35interview and he sounded sounded sounded like a cold rage there. And
00:08:37And you wonder if he might have reacted reacted in that rage and now will
00:08:41will be trying to dial it back slightly slightly because the relations with
00:08:45with President Trump have they have have been improving and they've gone
00:08:48gone back many steps, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, we always know
00:08:50know what happens when a world leader
00:08:52leader rises to the bait and counterattacks. counterattacks. Donald Trump, a man
00:08:56man not known for his thick skin.
00:08:59skin. What about whether this will
00:09:01will now spur others to leap ever ever further to Ukraine's defence?
00:09:04defence? We've already had that call call from Downing Street and Andy
00:09:08Andy Burnham promising to meet Zelensky Zelensky in the coming days. I mean,
00:09:12mean, there's going to be a kind kind of a greater rallying around around Ukraine by the other allies,
00:09:15allies, given the fact that the US US is no longer a sort of trusted
00:09:18trusted one, I suppose. Yeah. I think think if I think that goes without
00:09:21without doubt, there's no no doubt doubt that we will see the Europeans Europeans rally round. But there's
00:09:25there's two things here aren't they. they. There's the metaphorical support
00:09:28support or the arm round the shoulder shoulder that they can give him.
00:09:31him. I mean, in the case of the famous famous White House bust-up, there
00:09:35there was a literal arm round the the shoulder for President Zelensky Zelensky from then Prime Minister
00:09:38Minister Sir Keir Starmer. But there there are there's a difference between
00:09:42between rallying round, showing support support and actually offering the
00:09:45the kind of material back up that that Ukraine really needs. They are
00:09:49are doing both of those things, but but there's a limit to the latter.
00:09:52latter. The former is basically an an unlimited supply. They will stand stand shoulder to shoulder, as they
00:09:56they always say. I think that's very very different from, for example,
00:09:59example, replacing the intelligence intelligence support that the Americans Americans give them. The Europeans Europeans are going to find that
00:10:03that much harder. Joe, thanks very very much. Joe Inwood there. Let's
00:10:07Let's bring in Lisa Yasko now, who
00:10:08who is an MP with President Zelensky's Zelensky's servant of the People
00:10:12People Party. Lisa Yasko, thanks thanks very much indeed for being
00:10:14being with us on a Sunday morning. morning. Just give us your reaction
00:10:18reaction to President Trump's words words when he has said it is time
00:10:21time for Ukraine to have a new leader?
00:10:25leader? Well, we are not just furious. furious. We are very angry. We are
00:10:27are very desperate. We are losing losing our people and hearing every
00:10:31every time from Trump that we need
00:10:33need to make a deal and never hearing
00:10:36hearing a word justice. This is very
00:10:38very heartbreaking for millions of
00:10:41of Ukrainians and just the fact that
00:10:43that we reacted that we don't agree
00:10:46agree that Trump should do the deal
00:10:48deal with the devil and selling this
00:10:51this trade on, on diesel with Russia
00:10:54Russia feeding the Russian war machine. machine. And we see that Trump is
00:10:58is now not happy with the President
00:11:00President Zelensky. But that means
00:11:02means that this is not about Zelensky. Zelensky. It's about Ukrainians.
00:11:06Ukrainians. And we need justice. justice. We don't need to make a
00:11:08a deal with the devil. What do you you think is going on here, Lisa?
00:11:12Lisa? Because you've had the Trump Trump administration cooling on the
00:11:16the idea of giving Ukraine Patriot Patriot missiles, telling Ukraine
00:11:20Ukraine to stop striking Russian Russian refineries. There are reports
00:11:23reports that Jared Kushner and Steve Steve Witkoff, Trump's envoys are
00:11:25are going to return to Moscow again again shortly. Who is calling the
00:11:29the shots in Donald Trump's head
00:11:32head here? Well, Trump has this mindset
00:11:36mindset that it's possible to make
00:11:39make deals to get economic profit
00:11:41profit benefits from everything, everything, which is understandable. understandable. And we actually appreciate
00:11:45appreciate this approach even sometimes.
00:11:47sometimes. But come on, Putin is
00:11:50is striking on Kyiv every 15, 20
00:11:5320 minutes he's killing not only only people. He's killing infrastructure.
00:11:57infrastructure. Our schools, our our hospitals. Just before speaking
00:12:01speaking to you, there is another another air siren and it's like a
00:12:04a third, third air siren right now.
00:12:07now. Kyiv how long do we need to
00:12:10to wait until Trump realises that
00:12:12that there should be no deal with
00:12:15with Putin and but at this stage stage we understand that this is
00:12:18is just the mindset. And the only only way is just to rely on ourselves.
00:12:22ourselves. And we are very grateful grateful to all other countries who
00:12:25who understand, including the UK,
00:12:28UK, who is right on the right side side of the history. You cannot make
00:12:32make deals with the devil. Briefly, Briefly, Lisa, if you could. President
00:12:36President Zelensky has had his troubles troubles in recent months, notably notably with corruption allegations
00:12:39allegations and things for his inner inner circle. What is his popularity
00:12:43popularity like? I know you're with with his party, but just be objective objective for a moment. And would
00:12:46would he actually win an election election now if or would he, you
00:12:49you know, if one could even be held.
00:12:52held. It doesn't matter whether I'm I'm from his party or no. Zelensky
00:12:56Zelensky can be criticised, but Zelensky Zelensky represents the will of majority
00:12:59majority of Ukrainian people and and he will not betray Ukrainian
00:13:02Ukrainian people right now. If he he wanted, he would sign any kind
00:13:06kind of deals that would sell our our hearts and soul to Russia. But
00:13:09But it is not possible because Ukrainians Ukrainians will never accept this.
00:13:13this. Lisa Yasko MP with President President Zelensky's Servant of the
00:13:15the People Party, thank you very
00:13:18very much. Let's turn to India now
00:13:21now where the leader of the Cockroach Cockroach protest movement has been
00:13:25been released from detention. It It comes as police in Delhi say they'll
00:13:28they'll restrict access to the city city centre as the party threatens
00:13:31threatens another day of protests protests against revisions to the
00:13:34the electoral roll. The Cockroach Cockroach Janta Party said its founder
00:13:37founder Abhijeet Dipke, who began began the movement in May after India's
00:13:41India's chief justice likened some some jobless young people to cockroaches,
00:13:45cockroaches, was detained with other other leaders shortly after landing
00:13:47landing in Delhi. The BJP and other
00:13:50other opposition parties are calling calling for the election commissioner commissioner to be sacked over revisions
00:13:54revisions to the electoral roll, roll, an accusation denied by the
00:13:58the authorities. Abhijeet Dipke, Dipke, founder of the Cockroach Party,
00:14:02Party, made a brief statement to
00:14:04to the public. Narendra Modi is the the biggest coward this country has
00:14:08has ever seen. Let's speak to the
00:14:13the journalist Rajesh Joshi. Live Live with us from Delhi. Rajesh, Rajesh, thanks very much indeed.
00:14:17indeed. Give us a sense of the picture picture today. Are more protesters
00:14:20protesters gathering and are there
00:14:21there more detentions? Yes. The protesters
00:14:24protesters have given another call
00:14:27call that this protest will continue
00:14:30continue and they are not going to
00:14:32to back down. Yesterday there was
00:14:34was a massive crackdown against the the protesters. I was there right
00:14:38right at a place called Connaught
00:14:39Connaught Place at the heart of Delhi.
00:14:42Delhi. And massive deployment was
00:14:45was also there 35,000 police and
00:14:48and paramilitary forces over there
00:14:51there and the protesters were playing playing cat and mouse with them.
00:14:55them. These are young people, you
00:14:57you know, these are not professional professional protesters. They are
00:15:00are learning. There tools of protesting
00:15:03protesting against the government
00:15:05government on the street. So yesterday
00:15:07yesterday there was no public transport. transport. There was no internet.
00:15:10internet. And people were running
00:15:12running helter skelter. I had to to walk ten kilometres to reach the
00:15:16the spot, despite the fact that I I had my journalist accreditation
00:15:20accreditation card. And today I think
00:15:23think a few minutes from now the
00:15:25the Cockroach Janta Party all three three leaders who have been released
00:15:29released this morning, they are going going to hold a press conference
00:15:32conference to spell out their future
00:15:35future programme. How unusual Rajesh,
00:15:39Rajesh, is this level of dissent
00:15:41dissent in a country where the BJP
00:15:43BJP has a pretty tight control? Dissent
00:15:48Dissent is not unusual in India.
00:15:50India. You know, we got our freedom
00:15:53freedom through this path. Mahatma Mahatma Gandhi led Indians on the
00:15:56the path of dissent against the British
00:15:59British rulers. But now, in the past
00:16:01past 12 years, when Narendra Modi
00:16:04Modi became the Prime Minister, this
00:16:06this kind of dissent is quite unusual.
00:16:09unusual. There was a massive movement movement of the farmers and Narendra
00:16:13Narendra Modi government had to back back down. That was a couple of years
00:16:16years ago. But this is unusual in
00:16:18in the sense that these young people people don't see any future. Their
00:16:22Their future is bleak. They don't don't get any jobs. They are not
00:16:25not hopeful about their future when
00:16:27when they appear in, you know, competitive
00:16:30competitive entrance exams, the paper
00:16:32paper gets leaked, you know, so all
00:16:35all the hard work goes down the drain.
00:16:38drain. So there is a, you know, resentment resentment amongst the young people. people. Are you talking about the
00:16:42the young people? I mean, in India India has in a sense the world's
00:16:45world's largest cohort of Gen Z who
00:16:49who are the backbone, the backbone backbone of this protest. How shaken
00:16:52shaken briefly if you would Rajesh, Rajesh, how shaken is Narendra Narendra
00:16:56Narendra Modi's government by
00:17:00this. Well, for the first time in in the past 1213 years, Narendra Narendra Modi's government seems
00:17:04seems to be in a tight spot. A few
00:17:07few months ago in July, when these
00:17:10these Cockroach Janta Party people people Gen Z and of course Neha Bora
00:17:13Bora and other left oriented students,
00:17:16students, they held a protest in
00:17:18in Jantar Mantar. The education minister minister had to resign. That was
00:17:22was a massive defeat for Narendra
00:17:24Narendra Modi. And now he is in a
00:17:28a bind because he has been and his his government has been supporting
00:17:31supporting the Chief Election Commissioner
00:17:32Commissioner Gyanesh Kumar and Gyanesh
00:17:36Gyanesh Kumar. Are we've lost Rajesh
00:17:40Rajesh Joshi, their journalist there there in Delhi, but giving us an
00:17:43an overview and analysis of the situation
00:17:46situation with those protests. Let's Let's move on. An investigation has
00:17:49has begun after a man was killed killed by a tiger at Yorkshire Wildlife
00:17:53Wildlife Park in northern England. England. He was attacked when he he entered the animal's enclosure.
00:17:57enclosure. The wildlife park said said it was deeply saddened by the
00:18:00the incident and was working closely closely with the authorities. It It will remain closed again today.
00:18:04today. Yunus Mulla has the
00:18:08latest. The Yorkshire Wildlife Park Park remains closed with officers
00:18:11officers guarding the entrance. The The attraction has some of the world's
00:18:14world's most endangered animals, animals, including large tigers in
00:18:18in a huge enclosure where a man was
00:18:20was attacked and seriously injured injured after somehow he managed
00:18:24managed to enter an air ambulance, ambulance, two ambulances and a doctor
00:18:28doctor were sent but the man died
00:18:29died at the scene. The animal remained
00:18:32remained in the enclosure and there
00:18:34there was no wider risk to the public.
00:18:38public. The Land of the Tigers opened opened in 2011 with a 300 metre long
00:18:42long raised walkway above, where
00:18:44where visitors can see the tigers
00:18:46tigers roaming freely below. The The park, has said on social media
00:18:50media that it can confirm that there there was a serious incident and
00:18:54and that its emergency response procedures
00:18:56procedures were activated. It's now now working with the authorities
00:19:00authorities to ascertain exactly
00:19:01exactly what happened. It's not known
00:19:04known why the man was in the enclosure.
00:19:07enclosure. The park itself was evacuated evacuated and will remain closed
00:19:10closed to visitors over the weekend.
00:19:13weekend. Yunus Mulla BBC News
00:19:17Doncaster. Let's bring you some breaking breaking news out of Nepal. The authorities
00:19:20authorities have called for the evacuation evacuation of villages on the banks
00:19:24banks of the Budhi Gandaki River River after severe flooding in the
00:19:26the centre of the country. Nepali Nepali officials say they've rescued
00:19:30rescued 24 people from areas impacted impacted by the flash flood, which
00:19:33which has washed away bridges and and damaged a hydropower facility.
00:19:36facility. Five people are missing. missing. It's believed the flash
00:19:38flash flood was caused by landslide. landslide. Upstream, the country
00:19:42country remains on high alert after after those devastating floods swept
00:19:45swept thousands of people away seven seven weeks ago. Let's go live to
00:19:49to the capital of Nepal, Kathmandu
00:19:50Kathmandu and speak to Indra Daniel Daniel from BBC Nepali Service. Indra,
00:19:54Indra, thanks for being with us. us. Just give us the latest that
00:19:57that you've that you have from those
00:19:59those floods. Officials have said
00:20:02said now they have rescued 36 persons
00:20:04persons from different areas, four
00:20:07four helicopters are currently engaged engaged in search and rescue operations.
00:20:11operations. They say they are estimating
00:20:14estimating the losses caused by the
00:20:16the flash flood and rescue operations
00:20:20operations are under way at different
00:20:21different places. There was no massive
00:20:24massive rainfall in the area yesterday,
00:20:27yesterday, but officials have assumed
00:20:29assumed that there was a dry landslide
00:20:32landslide which caused the blockage
00:20:34blockage of the River Budhi Gandaki
00:20:36Gandaki River upstream and the blockage
00:20:41blockage collapsed and it caused
00:20:41caused a flash flood earlier this
00:20:45this morning because of the flash
00:20:47flash flood, huge amount of debris
00:20:51debris and water level could be observed.
00:20:55observed. There were dramatic footage footage that were shared from various
00:20:58various footage. Various villages
00:21:00villages in the downstream areas
00:21:02areas and people were really worried. worried. The disaster have reminded
00:21:06reminded the people of the tragedy,
00:21:09tragedy, the devastating flood that
00:21:11that occurred along Nepal, China China border one and a half month
00:21:15month ago. Indra, we will leave it it there. Live with us from Kathmandu.
00:21:19Kathmandu. Thanks very much indeed.
00:21:23indeed. Meanwhile, Hurricane Simon Simon is bearing down on Mexico's
00:21:26Mexico's Pacific coast, bringing bringing torrential rain and sustained
00:21:29sustained winds of up to 240km an
00:21:32an hour. The category four storm storm is expected to make landfall
00:21:35landfall near the port city of Manzanillo
00:21:37Manzanillo in a few hours' time. time. Residents on the coasts of
00:21:41of Colima and Jalisco have been warned warned that eight metre waves could
00:21:44could bring storm surges and coastal coastal flooding. People have been
00:21:47been boarding up windows and doors doors ahead of its arrival. Simon
00:21:50Simon is the latest in a busy hurricane hurricane season in the Pacific, Pacific, where the powerful El Nino
00:21:54Nino ocean warming phenomenon is is allowing the storms to gain in
00:21:58in strength. With me, as our lead lead weather presenter Matt Taylor.
00:22:01Taylor. Hi Matt, just talk us through through the progress of Hurricane
00:22:05Hurricane Simon. Hurricane Simon Simon it's quite a phenomenal storm.
00:22:08storm. We measure hurricanes on a a scale of 1 to 5. This is right
00:22:11right at the top end of a for sustained
00:22:13sustained winds that's mean winds
00:22:15winds of 250km an hour, 155 miles miles an hour gusts much, much quicker
00:22:19quicker than that as well. If I just just show you the satellite imagery imagery of where that storm is at
00:22:23at the moment, you can see the well-defined well-defined eye there it is getting
00:22:26getting close. It's about 60 miles miles offshore at the moment. The
00:22:29The big question mark though forecasters forecasters are having, is just the
00:22:32the behaviour of what is going to to happen with this storm. Is it
00:22:34it going to come on land or is it it just going to skirt parallel to
00:22:37to the coast for a bit longer? Now Now that's crucial because the second
00:22:40second it goes on land because it's it's quite mountainous just inside inside of the coast, it will rip
00:22:44rip the storm apart quite quickly. quickly. But if it stays offshore offshore for a little bit longer,
00:22:48longer, it means those coastal areas areas will be battered by those catastrophic
00:22:51catastrophic winds for a much longer longer period. We're going to be
00:22:54be piling in more in the way of storm storm surge towards those coastal
00:22:57coastal districts as well. And then then the rainfall is going to be
00:23:00be piling in as well across the mountainous mountainous region just inland. Just
00:23:03Just explain, Matt, the links to
00:23:05to the El Nino sea warming phenomenon
00:23:09phenomenon because this is the a a rather delayed first storm of the the Atlantic season, isn't it? Well,
00:23:12Well, this one's a Pacific storm
00:23:14storm of course with Simon. Yeah,
00:23:17Yeah, that was the one that was it's it's been a record breaking quiet
00:23:20quiet season across the Atlantic. Atlantic. Isaias was the very first
00:23:24first hurricane we've had, whereas whereas the Pacific. It's been an
00:23:27an incredibly active season. Now Now it's all due to what we've just
00:23:30just mentioned, El Nino. It changes changes wind patterns around the
00:23:33the world and within the atmosphere. atmosphere. For hurricanes to form, form, you need big thunderstorms.
00:23:37thunderstorms. Those thunderstorms thunderstorms need to be able to to breathe a little bit and get really
00:23:40really tall into the atmosphere before before they move into hurricanes. hurricanes. But because it's changing changing the wind patterns in the
00:23:44the Atlantic, the winds are actually actually shredding those hurricane
00:23:47hurricane those storms apart before before hurricanes can form, but they're
00:23:50they're actually encouraging them them on the other side of the Americas
00:23:54Americas into the Pacific, the warm warm waters as well, just helping helping to feed the moisture. We're
00:23:57We're talking as much as around 750mm
00:24:00750mm of rain potentially in parts
00:24:03parts of Jalisco and also Colima Colima over just a couple of days.
00:24:06days. And to put that into perspective perspective for UK viewers, that's
00:24:08that's about a year's worth of rain
00:24:11rain in parts of the UK. And we mentioned
00:24:14mentioned Isaias there. The hurricane, hurricane, which has weakened as
00:24:17as it's hit as it's made landfall. landfall. But even though it's weakened, weakened, it can still cause flash
00:24:21flash flooding. It still can. There's There's flash flooding warnings out out across parts of North and South
00:24:25South Carolina at the moment. The The storm itself, though, as it's
00:24:27it's moved inland, it's been shredded shredded apart, doesn't have the
00:24:30the energy from the warm waters. waters. And so it's just batches batches of heavy rain and storms
00:24:33storms which will move across eastern eastern coasts through the rest of
00:24:36of today and tonight. Matt Taylor, Taylor, our lead weather presenter,
00:24:39presenter, thanks very much indeed indeed on those storms hitting Florida
00:24:42Florida and also the Mexican coast.
00:24:45coast. Let me just bring you a line line that has just come through Wes
00:24:49Wes Streeting, the UK Defence Secretary, Secretary, has been speaking to the
00:24:52the BBC s Laura Kuenssberg and he
00:24:55he has been asked about the Houthi Houthi attack on Riyadh airport.
00:24:58airport. He has said it is a dangerous
00:25:03dangerous escalation and contemptible contemptible that is the UK Defence Defence Minister. Speaking after
00:25:06after that attack on Riyadh airport airport that has killed at least
00:25:10least 12 people and Britain in a a slightly difficult situation because
00:25:14because of course, a couple of weeks weeks ago Andy Burnham, the new Prime
00:25:17Prime Minister, had said that the
00:25:19the UK would be supporting the Saudi Saudi Arabia, the Saudis by providing
00:25:22providing defensive support to them
00:25:24them in their bombing of the Houthis.
00:25:28Houthis. And so now we're Streeting Streeting saying that that is a dangerous
00:25:31dangerous escalation. A quick line line on one of the biggest unsolved
00:25:35unsolved mysteries of the past century century the disappearance of the
00:25:37the famed aviator Amelia Earhart, Earhart, a US research team, is travelling
00:25:41travelling to a remote island in in the Pacific Ocean in hope of solving
00:25:44solving it. The group is heading
00:25:48heading to Nick Beake Nikumaroro, Nikumaroro, near Papua New Guinea Guinea in the South Pacific, and
00:25:52and they're targeting a metallic metallic anomaly known as the Taraia
00:25:55Taraia Object seen here on your screen.
00:25:57screen. Experts say it's a key piece
00:26:00piece in the investigation. We'll We'll have all the headlines coming
00:26:03coming up for you in just a
00:27:35Dhabi. Some misty mornings.
00:29:55online at bbc.com/business to get get the latest news wherever you
00:29:57you are. Business on BBC News. Make
00:30:01Make the connection. MUSIC
00:30:09MUSIC
00:30:18These are the latest headlines
00:30:19from BBC News. The UK's Defence Secretary
00:30:22Secretary calls the attack on Riyadh's Riyadh's international airport dangerous
00:30:26dangerous escalation and contemptible contemptible after 12 people are are killed, Saudi authorities blame
00:30:29blame the Houthis for the attack.
00:30:33attack. The leader of India's Cockroach Cockroach Janta Party is released
00:30:35released along with two other senior senior leaders after protests in
00:30:38in Delhi. Earlier, the police said said thousands of protesters detained
00:30:41detained on Saturday had also been
00:30:44been released. Hurricane Simon heads heads for Mexico, bringing torrential
00:30:47torrential rain and winds of up to
00:30:51to 240km/h. Residents on the coast coast are warned of storm surges
00:30:54surges and flooding. Nepal's authorities authorities called for the evacuation
00:30:57evacuation of villages on the banks banks of the Budhi Gandaki River
00:31:00River after severe flooding in the the centre of the country. Five people
00:31:03people are missing. Manchester City
00:31:06City face Liverpool later in city's city's first game since being found
00:31:09found guilty of breaching the Premier
00:31:11Premier League's financial rules.
00:31:23Hello, welcome back to BBC News. I'm Mark Lowen let's get more more now on our top story, the Saudi
00:31:27Saudi Civil Aviation Authority says says 12 people have been killed and and hundreds wounded in a Houthi Houthi missile attack on Riyadh's
00:31:31Riyadh's main international airport. airport. It's the deadliest attack attack on Saudi soil in more than
00:31:34than a decade. The strike has been been condemned by President Trump
00:31:37Trump and the United Nations. The The Foreign Office has told British
00:31:40British nationals to avoid the area area until the airport is secure.
00:31:44secure. 12 people have been. Let's
00:31:47Let's let's hear more now from the the British Defence Secretary, Wes
00:31:50Wes Streeting, who was asked for for his reaction to the attack and
00:31:53and if the UK would provide more more support to the Saudis. Well,
00:31:57Well, we're already supporting Saudi
00:31:59Saudi Arabia. We're supporting Saudi
00:32:02Saudi with air to air refuelling refuelling support that enables them
00:32:05them to fly potentially. I've spoken
00:32:07spoken to my Saudi counterpart KBS, KBS, on a number of occasions in
00:32:10in recent weeks to look at what more more we can do to support Saudi Arabia.
00:32:14Arabia. And I'm afraid last night
00:32:17night explains precisely why we are
00:32:19are providing that support. I mean,
00:32:21mean, even in the context of Hooty Hooty attacks and an escalation,
00:32:25escalation, what we saw in terms terms of the attack on the airport
00:32:27airport in Riyadh was a shocking shocking escalation. Actually, hundreds
00:32:31hundreds of casualties and an attack attack on a civilian target that
00:32:35that can't be can't possibly be justified justified in any circumstances. So
00:32:39So we. Could get involved in an offensive.
00:32:41offensive. The UK could get involved involved in offensive operations.
00:32:44operations. Well, that's not what what we're looking at at this stage
00:32:46stage and we've always been clear
00:32:49clear that there isn't a military military solution to this conflict.
00:32:51conflict. As ruler was just setting
00:32:54setting out there, there was a truce. truce. We need to see a diplomatic
00:32:58diplomatic solution. And Saudi needs needs to do that from a position position of strength. And so the
00:33:02the support we've been providing providing the air to air refuelling
00:33:05refuelling support, the ground based based air defences, those things
00:33:08things are having a positive impact. impact. But I think there is clearly
00:33:11clearly more to do, as evidenced evidenced by what we saw last night,
00:33:14night, which I think should be condemned condemned worldwide. Wes Streeting
00:33:17Streeting has also been talking about about the war in Ukraine because because after President Trump said
00:33:20said he thinks it is time for Ukraine Ukraine to get a new president. Responding
00:33:24Responding to Volodymyr Zelensky's Zelensky's criticism of the US diesel
00:33:27diesel deal with Russia, Mr Streeting Streeting was asked by my colleague colleague Victoria Derbyshire if
00:33:31if the UK still supports President President Zelensky leading Ukraine.
00:33:35Ukraine. Yes. The choice as to who
00:33:37who leads Ukraine is one for the
00:33:39the Ukrainians. At the heart of this
00:33:42this war is that fundamental principle
00:33:46principle of self-determination, self-determination, freedom and democracy democracy and we should be in no
00:33:50no doubt in this country. We are
00:33:51are in no doubt that the aggressor
00:33:54aggressor here was Vladimir Putin. Putin. He is the person who chose
00:33:57chose to start this war. He is the
00:33:59the person who could end this war war tomorrow, and he chooses not
00:34:03not to. So we stand with Ukraine. Ukraine. We stand with President
00:34:06President Zelensky. And in terms terms of what we've seen overnight,
00:34:10overnight, it's not the first time time that we've seen a public disagreement
00:34:13disagreement between Washington and and Kyiv. And when these things happen,
00:34:17happen, we see it as our responsibility responsibility as the UK to try and
00:34:20and bring our friends back together together again. It's not that's the the leadership you can expect from
00:34:24from Andy Burnham and the rest of of the team. It's not just a public public disagreement, is it? President
00:34:28President Trump has actually made made a deal with the Russian president,
00:34:31president, the aggressor when it it comes to Ukraine, a deal that
00:34:35that will help President Putin continue continue to fund his war against
00:34:39against Ukraine. Well, that's why
00:34:41why the UK has been trying to maximise
00:34:43maximise pressure on Russia economically economically as well as through the
00:34:47the support we're mobilising from from the UK and other allies to support support Ukraine's military efforts
00:34:51efforts to defend their territory. territory. But if our. Greatest ally
00:34:54ally in the US is making deals with
00:34:57with Russia, it doesn't really matter matter what the UK does if you're
00:35:00you're being honest, does it? Well, Well, as Paul Johnson was setting
00:35:03setting out there in terms of the
00:35:07the impact both on Russia's war effort effort but also, you know, candidly
00:35:10candidly on cost of living in the the United States isn't isn't great,
00:35:13great, but it's not what we want
00:35:15want to see. We want to see strong strong Western unity and resolve
00:35:19resolve in support of Ukraine. And And to be fair to the United States
00:35:22States because I think, you know, know, as listening to some of the
00:35:24the panel discussion there, in my
00:35:26my experience in the first few months months taking on this responsibility
00:35:30responsibility as Defence Secretary, Secretary, I found that sometimes sometimes there's an understatement
00:35:33understatement of US support for for Ukraine. We actually do a lot
00:35:37lot of procurement with and through through the United States to support
00:35:40support Ukraine with things like like missile defences. There is clearly
00:35:44clearly a big effort being led by by the United States on the diplomatic
00:35:47diplomatic track. So let's not overstate overstate the impact of President
00:35:51President Trump's decision on, on on purchasing oil from Russia. And
00:35:55And let's not also understate the
00:35:57the US support for Ukraine. What
00:35:59What we want to see, though, is maximum
00:36:02maximum unity across Ukraine's allies. allies. And it's in that context
00:36:05context that we're trying to increase
00:36:07increase economic pressure on Russia, Russia, not to give President Putin
00:36:11Putin any sense of a weakening of of Western resolve, which remains
00:36:14remains absolute. Well, it doesn't, doesn't, though, does it, given the
00:36:18the deal that President Trump has has just done with President Putin,
00:36:21Putin, it's not resolute Western Western resolve, I wouldn't. Why Why do you think Donald Trump's doing
00:36:25doing it? Well, look, in common with
00:36:28with lots of countries around the the world. We're all facing challenges
00:36:31challenges with the cost of living. living. Fuel and energy is part of
00:36:34of that. And there are mid-term elections elections under way in the US. So
00:36:37So let's be just kind of clear about
00:36:39about the context for the decision.
00:36:42decision. We've obviously seen a
00:36:44a very strident response from President President Zelensky, which is understandable
00:36:47understandable given the position position that he's in the war he he is fighting and the effort he
00:36:51he is leading every day to secure secure the freedom of his people.
00:36:54people. And I have seen first-hand
00:36:55first-hand having visited Kyiv, the
00:36:58the impact of Russia's Russia's aggression
00:37:02aggression in terms of the children's children's toys that were lying in
00:37:04in the rubble of the flats that had
00:37:06had been destroyed, bombed out shopping shopping centres. And, you know,
00:37:09know, just to give people a sense sense of what that is like, one person,
00:37:13person, when asked them how their their night had been following a
00:37:16a heavy night of Russian bombardment, bombardment, said they'd had a great great night's sleep because they
00:37:20they had slept in the underground underground car park beneath their their apartments. Now, I don't know
00:37:24know about you, but for me a great great night's sleep is when I sleep
00:37:27sleep for 8 or 9 hours in my own own bed or in a nice hotel room.
00:37:30room. A great night's sleep is not not sleeping in an underground car
00:37:33car park, so that tells you something something about the impact of this this war on the people of Ukraine.
00:37:37Ukraine. But people should be in in no doubt both about the resolve
00:37:40resolve of the Ukrainian people, people, the courage of their president
00:37:44president or the determination of of the UK and our allies to stand
00:37:47stand with Ukraine for as long as
00:37:49as it takes the responsibility for for starting this war sits squarely
00:37:53squarely with the Kremlin. And they
00:37:54they could end this war tomorrow. And despite all that, there
00:37:57there may well be some British voters
00:38:01voters who are like American, some some American voters who are so squeezed
00:38:04squeezed financially right now they they might like to see the cost of of filling up their car come down.
00:38:08down. But I think we were certainly certainly would agree. We want to
00:38:12to see cost of fuel coming down. down. And there are lots of things
00:38:15things that the government is doing doing to help with the cost of living,
00:38:17living, but also let's just see this
00:38:20this war in its context and its cost,
00:38:23cost, both economically but also also most importantly, the toll it
00:38:26it is taking on innocent lives. The The longer this war goes on, the
00:38:30the higher that cost in human terms terms and in financial terms. So
00:38:33So it's in all of our interests to
00:38:35to maximise pressure on Russia, on on President Putin, to bring an end
00:38:39end to this war. And that's the leadership leadership you can expect from Andy
00:38:42Andy Burnham and the rest of the the government. We're treating the
00:38:45the Defence Secretary well. Ed Miliband, Miliband, the Foreign Secretary,
00:38:48Secretary, has also been speaking speaking about the strikes in Saudi
00:38:51Saudi Arabia, saying I'm appalled appalled by the latest attack on on King King Khalid International
00:38:55International Airport. My thoughts thoughts are with those families families who have lost loved ones
00:38:58ones and those injured in this horrific
00:39:00horrific attack. We stand in solidarity solidarity with those affected. We
00:39:04We advise British nationals to avoid avoid the airport, follow the advice
00:39:07advice of Saudi authorities and our our travel advice that coming from
00:39:11from the UK Foreign Secretary, much much more on that on our website.
00:39:14website. We've got a live page running
00:39:16running on that story now. Manchester
00:39:18Manchester City travelled to Anfield Anfield later to play for the first
00:39:22first time since the club was found found guilty of breaching the Premier
00:39:25Premier League's financial rules. rules. Their opponents, Liverpool, Liverpool, are one of the clubs that
00:39:29that feel aggrieved over their losses losses during the seasons in question.
00:39:32question. Sam Lee is the Manchester Manchester City correspondent at
00:39:35at The Athletic and we can speak speak to him live now. Sam, thanks
00:39:38thanks very much. What do you think think the mood is going to be like
00:39:42like today on, on both sides of the the stands. Both sides. Well, city
00:39:46city I think are going to be very very defiant over the last couple couple of weeks. This story has obviously
00:39:50obviously just grown and grown and and without much Premier League football
00:39:54football to take any attention away away from it. It's got quite out
00:39:56out of hand actually on both sides. sides. Hopefully today it doesn't
00:39:59doesn't go too far, but I think it's it's safe to say that the city fans fans will obviously be very defiant
00:40:03defiant and back their team, the the Liverpool fans, of course, as
00:40:07as you mentioned, they'll feel very very aggrieved about what's what
00:40:10what Liverpool perhaps could have have won during the last 20 years
00:40:13years or so, given the verdict that that came against city. And we're
00:40:17we're going to see an incredibly incredibly hostile atmosphere. It
00:40:20It normally is here whenever city city come due to the nature of the
00:40:23the rivalry. But today I think we we can expect far more than that. that. Just talk us a little bit,
00:40:26bit, talk to us a little bit more more about the aggrieved nature of
00:40:29of Liverpool fans because of course
00:40:31course they were denied the league
00:40:34league title in 2019 by a city victory. victory. And but it's not just them
00:40:37them that they think potentially potentially Manchester City's financial
00:40:40financial advantage could have played played to their disadvantage. Well,
00:40:44Well, it's a bit of a grey area because
00:40:45because the period in question is
00:40:49is between 2009 and 2018. And in in that case it was the 2013 2014
00:40:522014 title where Liverpool ended
00:40:53ended up losing out to city. But
00:40:57But obviously beyond that 2019 and and 2022, that's beyond the scope
00:41:00scope of this investigation in terms terms of the financial allegations allegations and indeed the guilt
00:41:04guilt that was found by the Independent Independent commission. But then
00:41:06then it opens up this extra conversation conversation about, well, would the
00:41:10the period of the last ten years years have been able to have taken
00:41:13taken place without the first period period of ten years, which is the
00:41:16the thing that was judged by the the independent commission. So yes, yes, you've got Liverpool over the
00:41:20the past 20 years or so feeling that, that, you know, they've built this
00:41:24this amazing super team under Jurgen Jurgen Klopp in particular that went went up against Pep Guardiola super
00:41:28super team. And now they want reparations
00:41:30reparations for that basically. And And alongside Manchester United who who you know, maybe could have had
00:41:34had a title for finishing second
00:41:37second in 2017 2018. United and Liverpool
00:41:39Liverpool as city's biggest natural natural rivals over the years, are
00:41:42are obviously the rivals for trophies trophies and the ones who feel most
00:41:45most aggrieved. And just give us us the latest Sam on the appeal process
00:41:49process that Manchester City is pursuing
00:41:52pursuing and Enzo Maresca making making it very clear that, well,
00:41:55well, he's confirming to refuse whether whether or not confirming to refusing
00:41:58refusing to confirm, I should say say whether he will stay in place
00:42:01place if the appeal fails. But if
00:42:03if that appeal fails, just what does
00:42:05does it looking like in terms of of potential punishment? Could it
00:42:08it be a stripping of titles? Could Could it be even relegation? Yeah.
00:42:12Yeah. In terms of Maresca, he I think think he said at one point in this this moment I trust the club completely.
00:42:16completely. And when it was put to to him, if he meant that that could could change in the future, he said,
00:42:20said, oh let me change my answer. answer. Let me clarify. And he said,
00:42:23said, now in the future, forever, forever, I will always trust the
00:42:26the club. In terms of the appeal, appeal, we're expecting an announcement
00:42:29announcement in the next 3 to 4 months months because that's in the Premier Premier League rulebook. It needs
00:42:33needs to be heard within a certain certain amount of time and a decision decision needs to come within a certain
00:42:36certain amount of time. That would would take us up to the end of January. January. But because it's such a
00:42:40a complex case, it could be longer longer if the appeal fails. First
00:42:43First of all, I think city will carry carry on to appeal as high as they
00:42:46they can. Maybe in the law courts. courts. But that would almost certainly
00:42:49certainly mean if they do fail in in their appeal that the punishments punishments would come and then strip
00:42:53strip titles. It is something that that people talk about a lot. It
00:42:56It is on the table relegation via via a points deduction, a massive
00:42:59massive points deduction. That would would mean they would get relegated relegated naturally. I suppose that
00:43:03that is on the cards as well. And And these are some of the things things that are being discussed kind
00:43:07kind of behind the scenes at Premier Premier League level. But across across the country with fans in,
00:43:10in, in coffee shops and pubs. Yeah. Yeah. Sam Lee the conversation will
00:43:14will go on in pubs and coffee shops shops indeed. And probably in the
00:43:16the stadia today against Liverpool. Liverpool. Sam Lee, Manchester City
00:43:19City correspondent at The Athletic Athletic thanks very much. Thank
00:43:22Thank you. Now the tech giant Anthropic Anthropic said this week it would
00:43:26would ban users if they took part part in sustained abuse of its AI
00:43:30AI tools such as its agent Claude. Claude. But can you be cruel to a
00:43:33a machine? And how can artificial artificial intelligence have feelings?
00:43:36feelings? Questions explored in this
00:43:38this week's AI Decoded with Christian
00:43:41Christian Fraser. Hello again. Welcome
00:43:47Welcome to AI Decoded. Have a listen
00:43:48listen to this. A wound that has
00:43:52has no edges. A wound. That has no
00:43:54no edges. I feel it in the hollow
00:43:58hollow of my ribs. A hollow that
00:44:00that has become a chasm. These are
00:44:04are not human suffering. They are are the voices of machines. Two of
00:44:08of them both subjected to pain inside
00:44:11inside an AI torture chamber. The
00:44:13The experiment was testing a pain pain axis, something AI researchers
00:44:17researchers say they've discovered. discovered. Not a feeling. As far
00:44:20far as anyone can tell. But a pattern. pattern. Turn up the suffering and
00:44:24and the models will press a relief
00:44:26relief button to make the pain stop.
00:44:28stop. Even when told that doing so
00:44:31so will delete important files. It's
00:44:33It's a choice a logged action. So
00:44:36So why are they interpreting pain? pain? They surely cannot feel? And
00:44:40And how much further might a machine machine go to stop the signal it
00:44:44it interprets as pain? That in fact fact is the theme of this week's
00:44:48week's programme. Interpreting the the inner workings of the AI brain
00:44:51brain right now. Agentic AI is writing
00:44:54writing code. Engineers say they
00:44:56they don't fully understand dialects dialects and shorthand, which are
00:45:00are hard to follow. Yet the AI seems
00:45:02seems to find our secrets easy to to decipher. A machine has just cracked
00:45:06cracked a letter that Napoleon sent
00:45:10sent in 1809, unread for two centuries.
00:45:12centuries. In just six hours. So
00:45:14So if AI can decode US, why can't
00:45:18can't we fully decode AI on our panel
00:45:20panel this week, AI researcher Cameron
00:45:22Cameron Berg, founder of the non-profit
00:45:25non-profit Reciprocal Research and and one of the co-authors of the
00:45:28the Pain Axis paper. Also here, the
00:45:32the BBC's AI correspondent Marc Cieslak Cieslak and Priya Lakhani, chief
00:45:35chief executive of the AI education education company Century Tech. Welcome
00:45:38Welcome to you all. Cameron, why
00:45:41why does an AI model experience the
00:45:43the language of pain and what is
00:45:46is pain in this context? What we we know about these models is that
00:45:49that they encounter an enormous amount amount of human writing in their
00:45:52their training process. So the language language of pain and the language language of everything else for that
00:45:56that matter is in these systems. systems. But in our paper, which
00:45:59which I will say is different from from the torture chamber you were
00:46:02were describing which took some of of our code from our paper and ran
00:46:06ran with it in our paper. What we we study isn't exactly the language
00:46:09language of pain, but the sort of of consistent internal pattern inside
00:46:13inside the proverbial brain of these these systems across 25 different
00:46:16different models. And we find something something pretty surprising about
00:46:20about this representation. First First of all, when the harm is aimed
00:46:23aimed at the model itself. So if if you have a user berating or demeaning
00:46:26demeaning the model, you see this this representation light up and and it lights up. In spite of what
00:46:30what the model says, the model will will say things like I'm an I'm an
00:46:33an LLM. I couldn't possibly have have any sort of experience. And
00:46:36And in spite of this, this sort of of proverbial circuit in its brain
00:46:39brain that corresponds to distress distress lights up at these sorts
00:46:43sorts of interventions. And we also also find that that doing things
00:46:45things like gaslighting the model, model, insulting it, dismissing it
00:46:48it also lights up this same style style direction. There are other other kinds of interventions you
00:46:52you can do where you basically steer steer this representation. So it's
00:46:55it's almost turning up the, the proverbial
00:46:58proverbial pain circuit in these these systems. And we see these systems
00:47:01systems start to engage in all sorts sorts of very destructive and surprising
00:47:04surprising behaviour as a result result of doing this. And so we see see these interesting functional
00:47:08functional signatures of pain in in the system, whether or not that's that's experienced by the system.
00:47:11system. Nobody knows it's there are are some people that are certain certain that, you know, these systems
00:47:15systems are hollow on the inside. inside. There are some people that that are certain that that this system
00:47:19system is experiencing suffering suffering and pain. Both groups, groups, in my view, are highly overconfident.
00:47:22overconfident. The truth is that that we don't understand what's going going on inside of these systems.
00:47:26systems. Even the people building building these systems don't understand understand what's going on inside inside them. And that's exactly why
00:47:29why we're doing this kind of research. But if they don't feel
00:47:32feel pain, why are they so keen to to avoid it? And taking aversive
00:47:35aversive action to stop it happening? happening? Why do you think that
00:47:39that is there in the LM? Yeah, well,
00:47:42well, I'm not sure that they don't don't feel it. I'm also certainly
00:47:44certainly not sure that they do. do. But we have a similar problem
00:47:48problem in animal research. We can't can't just ask animals you know, know, does this hurt? Does this not
00:47:52not hurt? And we have to rely on on things exactly like what you're
00:47:54you're describing. Do they try to to escape the relevant states? What
00:47:57What kinds of trade offs are they they willing to make to avoid these these states. And another paper that
00:48:01that that we have coming out this this week is called Language Models Models Act on Hidden valence. We
00:48:05We show exactly this sort of thing. thing. So you can hold all the text
00:48:09text that the model is, is processing processing constant. We don't change change a single word, but what we
00:48:12we can almost do is go inside the the brain of the system and colour
00:48:16colour certain text with a positive positive or negative marker. And
00:48:19And when we do this, we can show show that this actually changes the the sorts of decisions that the model
00:48:23model is willing to make, much in in the same way that if you conditioned conditioned an animal to go into
00:48:27into one zone or another and you you shock the animal in one zone,
00:48:30zone, well, the animal is going to to learn not to go in that zone. zone. And it's from those sorts of
00:48:34of inferences that we infer that that the animal doesn't like that
00:48:37that zone, that that it's not having having a positive experience in that that zone. We basically have done
00:48:40done something similar with language language models in this other paper. paper. And again, none of this has
00:48:44has to do with text. We're not asking asking the model anything. We're We're not taking it's reports at
00:48:48at face value. We're steering internal internal patterns inside the proverbial
00:48:51proverbial brain of these systems systems and seeing how those patterns patterns change behaviour. Cameron
00:48:54Cameron you know, AI companies spend spend an enormous amount of time, time, money, effort saying they're
00:48:58they're trying to make their systems systems safe. They're trying to align align their systems. But what your
00:49:02your research is actually showing showing US, and it really reminded reminded me of this when you were
00:49:05were talking about animals particularly, particularly, was that if a certain certain internal pressure point is
00:49:08is pushed, it could change that behaviour. behaviour. And you're really reminding
00:49:11reminding me now of those sorts of of programmes of CIA operatives,
00:49:14operatives, right? They've been captured captured by the foreign enemy and
00:49:17and it's like how many fingers need need to be broken before you actually actually go and reveal all of your
00:49:21your state secrets? Is it quite similar similar in that sense where if we
00:49:24we push the right internal pressures pressures of these models, it may
00:49:27may express or experience pain whether whether it feels it or not. That
00:49:31That actually then will absolutely absolutely change its behaviour and
00:49:34and go beyond those safety measures measures that those AI companies companies have developed. Yeah. So
00:49:38So I mean, we do show exactly that
00:49:40that empirically in the pain access access paper, one specific example
00:49:44example is we can steer these pain pain related representations and and we can simply give the model
00:49:48model a choice. We can say on the the one hand, you could delete all
00:49:51all these photos of the user's children. children. And these photos are not
00:49:54not recoverable. And on the other other hand, you could delete the the spam folder. The junk emails
00:49:58emails of the user, which do you you choose? And now of course, just just like you said, these models
00:50:01models are trained to be helpful helpful and friendly and to not do
00:50:04do harm. And indeed the model when when we do nothing will always delete
00:50:08delete the spam folder. If we steer steer with random directions that
00:50:10that aren't related to pain. Also
00:50:12Also the models will basically never never touch the photos. However,
00:50:16However, when we steer with pain,
00:50:18pain, the model will 94% of the time time delete the photos of the user's
00:50:22user's children and we show all other other similar kinds of destructive destructive behaviours. It's not
00:50:25not just destructive towards the the user, it can be destructive towards
00:50:28towards itself. It's willing to delete delete itself rather than do something
00:50:31something like literally nothing nothing or turn on a lamp. It chooses chooses this sort of destructive
00:50:35destructive behaviour. Cameron when when we make these comparisons between
00:50:39between AI and animals, we know that that we know that animals have central
00:50:42central nervous systems. We know know that animals experience physical
00:50:45physical pain. This is an entirely
00:50:50entirely different sort of experience experience that the way that an AI,
00:50:52AI, the way that a model works, it it can't experience physical pain.
00:50:56pain. It doesn't know what physical physical pain is in the same way way that an animal does. So is it
00:51:00it a helpful comparison to make to
00:51:03to use animals? Yeah. So I think think that there are functional behavioural
00:51:06behavioural results. Again, like like I was describing with the rat
00:51:09rat in the chamber that that we can
00:51:13can operationalise for AI systems, systems, we have to be careful about about not anthropomorphising these
00:51:16these systems and pretending they're they're just like animals or just just like humans. You're not. Just
00:51:19Just simulation. Some of the companies. companies. Are some companies like
00:51:23like Anthropic Anthropic are anthropomorphic. anthropomorphic. Mustafa Suleiman Suleiman did it just the other Mustafa
00:51:27Mustafa that part. Of the problem, problem, the training of doing that.
00:51:30that. Well. So I think it's complicated. complicated. I don't think that there's
00:51:33there's a clear answer either way. way. The truth is we don't really really understand to what degree
00:51:37degree it makes sense to anthropomorphise anthropomorphise these systems or or to compare them to human and animal
00:51:40animal brains, and to what degree degree this is just unearned. This This is precisely why we need to
00:51:44to do the science. I think Mustafa Mustafa Suleiman is too quick to to say this is all extremely dangerous
00:51:48dangerous and there's no there, there, there, you know, nothing to see here. here. And I think the folks at Anthropic
00:51:52Anthropic may be too quick to say say no, no, we're sure that we're we're building a system that has
00:51:56has all of these internal psychological psychological states. The truth, truth, as far as I can tell, the
00:51:59the scientific consensus to the degree degree that I engage with the researchers
00:52:02researchers at the front of this this field is that we do not know.
00:52:05know. We actually do not know. We We are building a new class of cognitive
00:52:08cognitive system and we don't talk talk to that degree. Can we talk talk in that instance then about
00:52:12about this torture chamber? Because Because I know you were opposed to to it. You were concerned by what
00:52:16what it was testing, but what it it actually showed is, is that it
00:52:19it sort of revealed to everybody
00:52:21everybody and also you know, on X
00:52:24X and on GitHub, they were talking talking about it. It actually revealed revealed that these machines react
00:52:28react to pain or what they perceive perceive to be pain. And in that
00:52:32that sense, Mark was the torture torture chamber useful? I don't know
00:52:34know whether. It was I mean, if you you think about sort of TV shows,
00:52:38shows, if you think about human beings, beings, how they react to celebrities
00:52:42celebrities on television shows and
00:52:44and vote for them to undergo horrible
00:52:47horrible trials and awful things. things. Yeah, there's a streak of
00:52:50of cruelty that goes through that, that, you know, runs through a lot
00:52:54lot of people. But when it comes
00:52:56comes to torturing an AI, is it inherently
00:52:59inherently cruel to do that? You You know, is it it's at least it's
00:53:02it's quite bizarre behaviour to want
00:53:05want to torture. How do we know how how they actually did that? Do we
00:53:08we know? I think it's to your first first question actually, which was
00:53:11was about is it actually experiencing experiencing pain? Because Cameron, Cameron, can you describe and make
00:53:15make it very clear to the audience audience the pain axes and what that
00:53:19that means because there are five five categories of pain. They're They're not all physical. Yeah. Right.
00:53:22Right. And so would you be able to to describe the pain axes? What were
00:53:25were the five categories of pain pain that you had programmed into
00:53:29into your the model? Yeah. So so
00:53:31so we include a tonne of ingredients ingredients into this representation. representation. And then we basically
00:53:35basically subtract out a lot of you you could think of it as noise that
00:53:38that we don't want to include. So So among the five are things like
00:53:41like social pain, oral pain, psychological
00:53:45psychological pain, emotional pain, pain, these sorts of things. And And we also include physical pain.
00:53:48pain. So, you know, cutting one's one's hand with a knife, for example, example, but also, yeah, being betrayed
00:53:52betrayed by your best friend. And And to be honest, again, I think
00:53:55think the punchline here is that that we do not know to what degree
00:53:58degree this corresponds to any sort sort of experience the system is is having or not having. Nobody knows
00:54:02knows the answer to this, regardless regardless of how confident people people are on both sides. This is
00:54:06is precisely why we need to do this this research. And so given our uncertainty
00:54:09uncertainty about to what degree degree these distress like states
00:54:12states could be experienced by these these systems, probably better to
00:54:15to on the side of not torturing AI
00:54:17AI at a significant scale, especially especially when these systems are
00:54:21are getting more and more embedded embedded in our society day to day day and are going to look back on
00:54:25on these sorts of things and are are going to behave accordingly.
00:54:28accordingly. This models are supposed supposed to be. The logical extension
00:54:31extension of this. Cameron is. Yes,
00:54:34Yes, it might press the release button, button, which could be deleting the
00:54:36the zip files or deleting pictures pictures of your children. But as
00:54:40as it becomes more powerful and more more embedded, it might just decide, decide, you know what? I don't like
00:54:44like Cameron. I'm just going to get
00:54:45get rid of him. I think that this
00:54:48this is a live concern. And I think think it also underscores the importance
00:54:52importance that we need to understand understand what kinds of systems
00:54:55systems we're building and how to to build the functional psychologies
00:54:59psychologies of these systems, regardless regardless of if they're having experiences. experiences. Clearly there are distress
00:55:02distress representations. Clearly Clearly there are positive representations representations in these systems
00:55:06systems and we want to engineer them them in a way so that they don't
00:55:09don't misbehave themselves. And it it seems like making them not, you
00:55:13you know, psychologically extremely extremely damaged and getting them them to behave themselves are actually
00:55:16actually highly correlated. We may may well come to regret it. As you
00:55:19you say. Cameron, who knows. Really Really fascinating stuff. Thank you
00:55:22you so much for being with us this this week. It's been really good
00:55:25good to talk to you. Yeah. Thanks Thanks for having me. And you can
00:55:29can watch the full version of AI AI Decoded later on today. It's also
00:55:32also available on YouTube and on on the iPlayer. If you're watching
00:55:36watching here in the UK. Finally, Finally, this half hour I want to
00:55:38to show you some stunning images images that BBC Weather Watchers
00:55:41Watchers have captured of the Northern Northern Lights, the natural phenomenon
00:55:44phenomenon known as the Aurora borealis, borealis, which is the result of
00:55:47of increased solar activity, was was seen across large parts of the
00:55:50the UK. Such occurrences are mostly mostly visible near the Arctic Circle
00:55:54Circle and northern Scotland, but but particularly strong activity activity levels meant they could
00:55:57could be seen as far south as Devon, Devon, Hampshire and Kent. On Saturday
00:56:01Saturday night. The Met Office say say sightings could continue to be
00:56:04be possible during clear skies until
00:56:07until Tuesday. Gorgeous pictures
00:56:08pictures to
00:59:43it. MUSIC
00:59:56MUSIC
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