Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:00and wasn't working. That was really really influential to how I approached approached my journalism. Building
00:00:04Building trust by taking the time time to understand a situation clearly
00:00:07clearly before reporting a story
00:00:10story in a 24 hour news cycle. Patience
00:00:13Patience can be so frustrating, but but it's a crucial tool. I'm Lucy
00:00:17Lucy Hockings on BBC News Now. Now
00:00:23Now on. BBC News. Comprehensive coverage
00:00:27coverage of the day's important national
00:00:29national and international news stories.
00:00:33stories. Newsnight. A conversation
00:00:41conversation we must have. Andy Burnham Burnham says it will be a dereliction
00:00:44dereliction of duty for the government government not to pursue closer ties
00:00:48ties with the EU. Should we brace brace ourselves for a rerun of those
00:00:52those divisive Brexit rows? And we
00:00:54we probe the extent of Russian interference interference in UK elections after
00:00:57after Andy Burnham says it's inconceivable inconceivable to think Russia didn't
00:01:01didn't try to interfere in the Brexit Brexit vote. A close ally of President
00:01:04President Putin tells Newsnight that's
00:01:07that's a crazy lie.
00:01:27Good evening. Welcome to Monday's Newsnight live from Broadcasting
00:01:30Broadcasting House with insight on on politics, media and international
00:01:33international news. Each weeknight.
00:01:36weeknight. Hello. Did Russia interfere
00:01:39interfere in the 2016 Brexit referendum? referendum? Let me introduce you
00:01:41you to our panel this evening. Times Times columnist Fraser Nelson and
00:01:45and Labour MP for Pendle and Clitheroe,
00:01:47Clitheroe, Jonathan Hinder, a leading
00:01:49leading Red wall MP, and Nick is
00:01:52is here to. This is what the Prime Prime Minister said. On. The Rest
00:01:55Rest Is Politics podcast. Last night. night. I asked a question coming
00:01:59coming into Downing Street. Was there
00:02:03there interference in the 2016 referendum referendum from Russia? And I've I've had the clear answer that yes,
00:02:06yes, there was. Yes. Today in the
00:02:08the Commons he said something different.
00:02:11different. It is a matter of record, record, Mr Speaker, that Russian
00:02:14Russian actors sought to interfere
00:02:18interfere in the 2029 general election
00:02:19election and we think it is inconceivable
00:02:23inconceivable that this was the first first time. Let's talk to Labour Labour MP Emily Thornberry, chair
00:02:27chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Select committee, about this and and the Prime Minister's comments
00:02:30comments that it will be a dereliction dereliction of duty for the government government not to pursue closer ties
00:02:34ties with the EU. Welcome to you you Dame Emily Thornberry. Why is
00:02:37is the Prime Minister saying two
00:02:39two very different things about Russian Russian interference, do you think?
00:02:43think? I don't know if he is. I mean,
00:02:45mean, I think that it's well, it's
00:02:48it's measurable that there was attempts attempts by Russia to interfere in
00:02:51in the Brexit referendum is it. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Where's the evidence?
00:02:55evidence? Well, City University did
00:02:56did show that there were 13,500 tweets
00:03:00tweets that put out 65 sorry, 13,500
00:03:0413,500 accounts put out 65,000 tweets
00:03:06tweets at the time. Very shortly shortly around the Brexit referendum.
00:03:10referendum. One of them was a guy
00:03:13guy called David Joe Brexit. And And although he claimed he came from
00:03:16from the Isle of Wight, he only seemed seemed to tweet during Russian working
00:03:19working hours. But that's not what what Andy Burnham said in the Commons Commons today, is it? He did say
00:03:23say something different. I'm just just saying that there is evidence evidence that there were attempts.
00:03:27attempts. Now the trouble is how how do you measure whether that actually
00:03:29actually had an effect or not, particularly particularly in the context? Actually, Actually, I'm not asking about whether
00:03:33whether it had an effect or not. not. I'm literally just asking why why you thought the Prime Minister
00:03:36Minister said two different things things and why he appeared to row
00:03:40row back in the Commons today. What What he said on that podcast last
00:03:42last night? Well, it's like, are are you interfering? You know, Russia
00:03:46Russia is interfering. But whether whether they interfered effectively effectively or not is something which
00:03:49which is difficult to, to prove one one way or the other, I suppose.
00:03:53suppose. I mean, ten years later later and we have to remember it's it's in the context of a huge amount
00:03:57amount of lies. You know, it's kind kind of rich coming from some people
00:04:00people saying that Andy Burnham is
00:04:02is lying when, you know, there were
00:04:05were what was it, 350 lies that were
00:04:08were being told, you know, on the the side of a bus, they claim they they were going to have all this
00:04:12this money. That was I mean, all all of this Boris Johnson saying saying that people's lives were going
00:04:15going to be, you know, bigger breasts breasts if we left the European Union.
00:04:18Union. I mean, all of this nonsense, nonsense, there was a lot of lies
00:04:20lies told. It's very difficult to to know on what basis people made
00:04:24made decisions. And it's difficult difficult to know whether the Russians
00:04:27Russians were making up additional additional lies or simply amplifying
00:04:30amplifying the lies that were already already there. One thing you think.
00:04:33think. It definitely happened. They They definitely did. I mean, they they definitely tried to interfere.
00:04:37interfere. And actually the truth truth is, is that in the last ten ten years they've got a lot better
00:04:41better at it. And that is the real
00:04:44real issue, which is how do we now
00:04:46now protect our democracy to make make sure that the Russians don't
00:04:50don't interfere in future and are are effective? OK. So that's what's
00:04:53what's important really. I mean, mean, like, you know, we can argue argue for as long as we like about
00:04:57about what happened with Brexit. Brexit. Let's not let's just say
00:05:00say we had a referendum and we chose chose to leave. And you know, that
00:05:03that was ten years ago. Now we need need to look at how do we protect
00:05:07protect our democracy right now.
00:05:08now. OK, we'll come back to further further conversation about this in
00:05:12in a moment. I spoke to close ally
00:05:14ally and former spokesperson for for President Putin, Sergei Markov.
00:05:18Markov. What does he say to Prime Prime Minister Burnham's claim that
00:05:21that Russia interfered in the 2016
00:05:232016 Brexit vote? No, it's directly
00:05:27directly I don't know either. It's
00:05:29It's Prime Minister Burnham is lying
00:05:32lying or intelligence service of
00:05:34of Great Britain who is not fully
00:05:36fully under the control of the industry
00:05:41industry changing Prime Ministers Ministers lying. We don't know. But
00:05:43But it's absolutely clear. Like Russia
00:05:46Russia are those time was discussing
00:05:49discussing about more independent
00:05:50independent of Europe from United United States of America. That's
00:05:54That's why Russia was interesting
00:05:56interesting about more strong and
00:05:58and more independent European Union.
00:06:02Union. So it's a crazy lie. Mr Burnham Burnham said that Russian actors
00:06:06actors sought to interfere in, in
00:06:08in the UK's 2019 general election,
00:06:11election, and he said it's inconceivable inconceivable that this was the first
00:06:14first time and Twitter, as it then
00:06:16then was told the House of Commons
00:06:18Commons that it had identified 49 49 accounts linked to Russia's internet
00:06:22internet Research Agency that posted
00:06:25posted 942 Brexit related tweets tweets during the referendum campaign
00:06:28campaign and the University of Edinburgh
00:06:32Edinburgh identified 419 accounts accounts operating from the Russian
00:06:36Russian internet Research Agency Agency attempting to influence UK
00:06:38UK politics. Out of 2500 accounts
00:06:42accounts suspended by Twitter. Peter
00:06:46Peter Saull Russia Russian government
00:06:49government has no political forces forces in Great Britain who is friendly
00:06:52friendly to Russia so no reason for
00:06:55for Russia to support anybody in
00:06:58in British politics. Vladimir Putin
00:07:00Putin many times Russia very much
00:07:03much respect of sovereignty of all all other countries. Well, that's
00:07:06that's not true. That's not true. true. Sorry. That's blatantly not
00:07:09not true because Russia invaded Ukraine,
00:07:11Ukraine, didn't respect its sovereignty.
00:07:13sovereignty. No, no, no, you're yeah,
00:07:16yeah, I am absolutely right because
00:07:20because Ukraine not independent Ukraine
00:07:22Ukraine after the coup military coup
00:07:26coup of 2014, independence of Ukraine
00:07:29Ukraine had been stolen by United
00:07:31United States of America, Great Britain
00:07:33Britain and European Union. So it's
00:07:37it's impossible to violate independence independence of Ukraine because independence
00:07:40independence of Ukraine does not
00:07:43not exist from 2014. OK, that's absolute
00:07:46absolute nonsense because Ukraine
00:07:47Ukraine Ukraine voted for independence
00:07:50independence in 1991. And as we know
00:07:52know in 20 well, in 2014, Russia
00:07:55Russia took Crimea, annexed Crimea
00:07:57Crimea illegally and then invaded
00:07:59invaded Ukraine in 2022. So so I
00:08:02I put to you again Russia, President
00:08:04President Putin does not does not
00:08:06not respect the sovereignty of independent
00:08:10independent nations. Vladimir Putin,
00:08:12Putin, respect the sovereignty of of all independent nations. And he
00:08:16he repeated this many times. It's
00:08:20It's strategic position of Russian
00:08:22Russian government. But if you are
00:08:24are talking about Ukraine, Ukraine
00:08:27Ukraine was independent from 1991
00:08:301991 until coup of 2000 and when
00:08:34when Ukraine was independent and
00:08:35and neutral country. Ukraine has
00:08:38has zero problem with Russia, zero
00:08:41zero security problems or zero economic economic growth. That's why Russia
00:08:45Russia support independence of Ukraine.
00:08:48Ukraine. Russia suggested that Ukraine
00:08:50Ukraine should come back to the period
00:08:54period between 1991 and 2014, when
00:08:57when Ukraine was independent, neutral
00:08:59neutral and democratic country, but
00:09:01but not as Neo colonial regime as as it now. Thank you very much, Sergei
00:09:04Sergei Markov. Thank you for talking
00:09:06talking to us. My pleasure. So what's
00:09:11what's so interesting about that that is when you see him being questioned,
00:09:14questioned, that is the voice of of Russia just directly. It is just
00:09:17just not believable. And that's why why they have to hide behind all
00:09:20all of these bots that they make. make. They pretend that there are
00:09:24are real people. They are not real real people. And they simply echo
00:09:26echo one another and they put messages messages out that way. And people
00:09:30people are completely fooled. But But what they should do is look at
00:09:32at these bots and look to see whether whether they have followers who are
00:09:36are like their auntie or their mum, mum, or somebody who would look like
00:09:39like a real friend. Not Ivan 3245
00:09:423245 you know, do they have real real faces? Do they have real profiles?
00:09:46profiles? Because those are the bot bot farms and many of them are based
00:09:49based in Russia and they are using using you know, they are trying to
00:09:52to divide democracies. They are trying trying to undermine us. And it is
00:09:55is really important that people understand
00:09:57understand what is going on. Nick,
00:10:00Nick, what have you picked up about about the differing statements, the
00:10:03the different statements that Andy Andy Burnham made? Well, what we
00:10:06we had from today, from Andy Burnham Burnham was obviously him talking talking about the deal that he hopes
00:10:09hopes to sign with the European Union Union on the 20th of November. And
00:10:12And then, as we were saying, those those differing statements on alleged
00:10:15alleged Russian interference. So So on the wider relationship with
00:10:18with the EU, you can see three factors factors explaining Andy Burnham's
00:10:21Burnham's thinking. Firstly, he believes
00:10:23believes it's in the UK's economic
00:10:25economic interest to improve on Boris Boris Johnson's zero tariffs. Zero
00:10:29Zero quota deal with the EU. Secondly, Secondly, the Prime Minister believes
00:10:33believes it's in the UK's broader broader political interest to widen
00:10:36widen that deal to cover things like
00:10:39like co-operation on immigration. immigration. And then thirdly, the the Prime Minister believes that
00:10:42that if you get a deal that should should open up a wider conversation
00:10:46conversation about a much closer
00:10:47closer future relationship with the
00:10:50the EU, that could include rejoin. rejoin. Now, might there just be
00:10:52be a little bit of a political calculation calculation there? Because if as
00:10:56as he's trying to win back voters voters from the Greens and the Liberal
00:10:59Liberal Democrats will, polling shows shows that well over 70% of Green
00:11:03Green and Lib Dem voters in 2024
00:11:062024 would vote for rejoin. And if
00:11:09if you are making a big offer to
00:11:11to remain voters, there are many
00:11:14many passionate remain voters who
00:11:16who feel very strongly about this this alleged Russian interference
00:11:19interference in the Brexit referendum. referendum. But then what that took
00:11:22took us today is a pattern that we've we've had since Andy Burnham became
00:11:25became Prime Minister. Does he occasionally occasionally use loose language?
00:11:28language? So in the rest of the Rest Rest is Politics podcast, he talked
00:11:32talked about how to he saw he was
00:11:34was told when he became Prime Minister
00:11:36Minister there was Russian interference interference in the 2016 referendum
00:11:40referendum appeared before MPs today today where you've got to be utterly
00:11:44utterly precise in your language. language. A clarification much more
00:11:46more cautious language. There was
00:11:48was Russian involvement in the 2016
00:11:512016 referendum and then his Andy Andy Burnham's judgement is that
00:11:55that it's inconceivable that there there wasn't involvement before that
00:11:59that date. OK. Could it be a political political strategy then from Andy
00:12:03Andy Burnham to be appealing to those
00:12:06those pro-EU voters who may have have drifted to the Lib Dems, to
00:12:09to the Greens, from Labour? I don't
00:12:11don't know. I think that I think
00:12:16think that the I think that the majority majority of people in Britain know
00:12:19know that that leaving the EU was
00:12:21was a mistake and that it shouldn't
00:12:24shouldn't be the end of the world world for us to discuss changing changing our relationship. I mean,
00:12:28mean, remember, you know, our current current relationship is one that that was a deal that was signed by
00:12:32by Boris Johnson on Christmas Eve.
00:12:35Eve. Now, by definition, frankly, frankly, one should be sceptical sceptical about whether or not that
00:12:39that deal was sufficient. Signed Signed by Boris Johnson Christmas Christmas Eve, it obviously had massive
00:12:43massive holes in it. Attempts are are being made to patch those holes
00:12:47holes up. They've. The negotiations negotiations have been going on for for some time, but actually the time
00:12:51time it's taken us to negotiate that that Europe has changed. Our relationship
00:12:54relationship with Europe has changed.
00:12:55changed. It's much more of a security
00:12:58security focused Europe these days.
00:13:00days. You know, the impact of Ukraine
00:13:03Ukraine has really affected our standing standing in Europe, but our relationship
00:13:06relationship with Europe too. So
00:13:08So I think having opening up a conversation, conversation, but this time doing
00:13:11doing it in an honest way and doing doing it in a way whereby we don't don't spend our time screaming at
00:13:15at each other, but we just say if if we want to grow our economy, if
00:13:19if we want to be able to find ourselves ourselves a place in the world where
00:13:22where we are safe and secure, then then maybe we should be closer to
00:13:25to our closest geographical neighbours. neighbours. Other countries about
00:13:28about the same size, other countries, countries, economies like ours and and the same sort of outlook. Let
00:13:32Let me push you to the next Labour Labour manifesto because my understanding
00:13:35understanding is that you want to to see rejoining the EU in the Labour
00:13:38Labour manifesto. I mean, I think think that would be quite sensible. sensible. Which means freedom of
00:13:42of movement, of course. Well, why why do you say well why are you saying
00:13:45saying it would it would mean freedom. freedom. But I don't know whether whether it. Which may not which may
00:13:49may not be what a majority of the the British public. I mean we need
00:13:52need to we need to discuss this and and we need to discuss this not just just internally but also with the
00:13:56the European Union. And on that point, point, does it mean that. EU not not have free movement? Well, rewrite
00:13:59rewrite the Treaty of Rome. No, no no no. Does it mean that we have have to sign up to Schengen? Does
00:14:03Does it mean that we have to the. the. Terms that we that the UK had.
00:14:06had. Yeah, yeah. So so. Freedom of of movement in the Treaty of Rome. Rome. Yeah. That's not. Yeah, I understand
00:14:10understand that but you know but but the Schengen agreement is is is something else. Do we need to
00:14:14to be in that and do we need to or or do we need to join the euro. You
00:14:17You know, there are countries in in the European Union because the the euro in the Maastricht treaty,
00:14:21treaty, we had an opt out as a member. member. There are countries that that have not joined the European
00:14:24European Union or have signed up up to join the European to join the
00:14:27the euro at some stage in the future. future. In 20 years on, they still
00:14:31still haven't got there. This. Is Is a flavour of the conversation conversation that would be opened
00:14:34opened up. Now you may want that that conversation to be opened up up even though you wrote during the
00:14:38the Brexit years about Brexit paralysis paralysis in this country, you wrote
00:14:42wrote about the Britain disappearing disappearing into a Brexit hole.
00:14:45hole. Do you want to see that again?
00:14:48again? I want us to be in a country country at ease with our neighbours
00:14:51neighbours and a country where we
00:14:52we can grow our economy, which will will be to our advantage. And you
00:14:56you know, for us to be, as I say, say, safe and in a good relationship
00:14:59relationship with those who are closest closest to us. And can I put this
00:15:02this to you finally before we before before we talk to Fraser, Nelson
00:15:05Nelson and Jonathan, Hinder your your colleague, what do you think
00:15:08think about the fact that Andy Burnham Burnham appeared to say more about
00:15:12about a future EU, UK relationship relationship in the Commons today,
00:15:15today, rather than the crisis in in Ukraine because of President Trump's
00:15:18Trump's diesel deal with President
00:15:20President Putin and the Iranian backed
00:15:22backed an assault on RAF Fairford?
00:15:26Fairford? Yeah, so I think he did did talk about the other matters.
00:15:29matters. But I mean, he was also also questioned largely about Brexit
00:15:32Brexit too. So that's how it kind
00:15:34kind of ended up dominating. But
00:15:37But clearly it is a very important important issue, which is that America
00:15:40America would seem under Donald Trump Trump to be increasing its dependence
00:15:44dependence on Russian oil and gas, gas, unlike Europe, that is weaning
00:15:48weaning itself off oil and gas from from Russia as we need to in order
00:15:51order to be able to, to take a stranglehold stranglehold on the Russian economy,
00:15:55economy, because that really is the the only way in which we're going
00:15:57going to get Putin back to the negotiating negotiating table in a sensible frame
00:16:00frame of mind. But there are there there are parts of Europe who are are still buying Russian energy.
00:16:04energy. But I think that they have have Yahya Sarea but they've cut
00:16:07cut it back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And And they still I think it's now 14%
00:16:1014% in relation to some countries, countries, but it has gone down from
00:16:13from a much higher number. And that's that's true. You can't cut it off
00:16:17off overnight necessarily. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much. Emily Emily Thornberry Dame Emily Thornberry
00:16:20Thornberry thank you for being with with us. So the Prime Minister says says he's going to push for new post-Brexit
00:16:24post-Brexit deals with the EU at at a summit next month. Areas like
00:16:27like youth mobility, food, energy. energy. The conservative leader,
00:16:30leader, Kemi Badenoch, says he's he's unpicking the deal this country
00:16:33country signed with the EU a decade decade after the referendum. Mr Burnham
00:16:36Burnham said we should be open to to a discussion about our relationship relationship with Brussels in the
00:16:40the longer term. Here he explains
00:16:42explains his reasons. If we are serious
00:16:47serious about promoting growth controlling
00:16:50controlling immigration, upholding upholding our values and security,
00:16:54security, it is a conversation we
00:16:56we must have. Sticking with the status
00:17:00status quo is not good enough for
00:17:02for Britain. Worse, it would be a
00:17:04a major dereliction of duty to turn turn away. We need to take a calm,
00:17:08calm, clear eyed, rational look at at the world as it is today to consider
00:17:12consider what is best for our country.
00:17:15country. OK, let's pick this up with with our panel then. Jonathan, do
00:17:18do you agree with Andy Burnham and and Emily Thornberry? Oh on what?
00:17:22what? Sorry. On getting closer to
00:17:25to the EU. Well, I think if I may
00:17:28may say what we just saw with you,
00:17:31you, Nick and Emily is what you could could well imagine the conversation
00:17:35conversation going into if we open open this to be a full-blown Brexit
00:17:38Brexit debate again. So let's take take things in turn. What we've got
00:17:42got is Andy Burnham continuing the the work that Keir Starmer's government
00:17:45government was doing on the summit. summit. So we're trying to get rid
00:17:48rid of red tape, improve things for for business farmers and so forth.
00:17:52forth. That's a tick for you. That's That's good. OK. Right. That's one
00:17:55one thing. But when we talk about
00:17:58about the possibility of dropping dropping those red lines, then you
00:18:02you get into free movement. You get get into the customs union. So not
00:18:06not having your own trade policy, policy, you get into tens of billions
00:18:08billions of pounds a year being sent
00:18:10sent to the EU. That's what rejoining
00:18:13rejoining means, not to mention the the euro and Schengen, which as you
00:18:16you say, we had opt outs out of because
00:18:19because of our special status that that we had inside the EU. So none
00:18:23none of that is going to happen, happen, right? None of that is going
00:18:26going to happen. So I think geopolitically
00:18:30geopolitically it makes sense for for us when we've got what's going
00:18:33going on in America going on to say say we want to be close to France
00:18:37France and Germany and our other
00:18:39other European allies, but the EU,
00:18:42EU, that's a different thing. The The institutions of the EU are a
00:18:44a different thing. And we played played a central role in European
00:18:48European geopolitics when it comes comes to Ukraine from outside the
00:18:51the EU. And I think that's where where we should stay. Right. Why
00:18:54Why do you say none of that is going going to happen? How can you be so
00:18:58so sure? Well, because there's no
00:19:00no way we can go back into the European European Union without a referendum.
00:19:04referendum. It wouldn't have democratic democratic legitimacy. And what we
00:19:06we just saw from your conversation conversation with Emily and Nick
00:19:09Nick was exactly how the campaign
00:19:11campaign would go. And honestly, honestly, I don't think it would
00:19:15would be close. I really don't know. know. What you mean. People would would vote again to stay out. Well,
00:19:18Well, that's not what the polling polling suggests. As you know. Well,
00:19:22Well, we saw the conversation beyond beyond the initial question there,
00:19:25there, didn't we? It was only 30s 30s and it was getting a bit sticky.
00:19:28sticky. Fraser Nelson Polling shows shows the public's attitude has shifted, shifted, in part because Brexit has
00:19:32has not delivered what Boris Johnson Johnson and Nigel Farage said it
00:19:35it would, which was growth, decent
00:19:37decent growth, good growth and reduced
00:19:41reduced immigration this summer. summer. YouGov YouGov poll suggested suggested that 57% of Brits said
00:19:45said they thought it was wrong to
00:19:47to have left the EU, and 55% say
00:19:51say they supported the UK rejoining.
00:19:53rejoining. Well, as we saw in the the Brexit campaign, these percentages
00:19:57percentages shift over the course course of a campaign but this reminds
00:19:59reminds me a lot of the Scottish Scottish referendum. I mean the result result in Scotland. If you knew that
00:20:03that opinion poll, would Scotland Scotland become independent? A good good number of people would say yes.
00:20:06yes. But then you say would you actually actually like the referendum now
00:20:09now the debate now hardly anybody anybody does is exactly the same
00:20:12same with Brexit. If you do run a
00:20:14a poll saying would you like a referendum?
00:20:17referendum? Like soon in the foreseeable foreseeable future, I think it's
00:20:20it's down to like 30% or something. something. I mean. Why is Andy Burnham
00:20:23Burnham doing this? Because he wants wants to rally his troops. He wants
00:20:26wants to try to put together the the kind of the left wing coalition
00:20:29coalition he wants to get Lib Dem Dem voters back to Labour. He wants
00:20:32wants to get some of the green voters voters back and he's thinking, OK,
00:20:36OK, maybe it's time now to use remain remain to try to rally that flag.
00:20:39flag. There's no doubt about it. it. There is a huge number of Brits
00:20:42Brits who want back in the EU now. now. Previously Labour has not dared
00:20:45dared do this because like Jonathan Jonathan here represents quite Brexit
00:20:48Brexit deceit. They know that if if they do that's going to be a lot
00:20:52lot of seats just gone to Labour
00:20:54Labour Party. And so the position position was that, as Jonathan was
00:20:57was saying, just let sleeping dogs dogs lie. Let's move on. But to actually
00:21:00actually reopen it for the Prime Prime Minister to say he wants to
00:21:03to rejoin the EU, to even entertain
00:21:05entertain the prospect of free movement, movement, as we heard just a few
00:21:09few moments ago, that is the problem. problem. On one level you'll get
00:21:12get a lot of green voters and Lib Lib Dem voters watching this thinking
00:21:16thinking maybe Andy Burnham's got got the gumption I need to vote Labour
00:21:19Labour again. But you'll also get get a big reaction that the Tories Tories are absolutely looking their
00:21:23their lips for. That's why Kemi Badenoch Badenoch is going so strong, because
00:21:26because rerunning that referendum referendum would suit the Conservatives Conservatives down to the ground.
00:21:29ground. What do you think of it then, then, as a political strategy from
00:21:32from your new Prime Minister? Well, Well, I think we want to build a
00:21:35a broad based coalition across the the whole country, working class.
00:21:38class. Is this the way middle class
00:21:39class voters? And I think most people
00:21:42people would say relaunching ourselves ourselves into that national trauma
00:21:45trauma again should not be a priority. priority. So not not a good political.
00:21:49political. Relationship with the the EU, good for business and so
00:21:51so forth. And I have businesses in in my constituency that say, yeah, yeah, there have been some issues
00:21:55issues with that red tape and so so forth, but not relaunching the
00:21:58the whole thing. I mean, if it were were to happen, if we were to move
00:22:01move in the direction of rejoin, rejoin, it would be a huge journey. journey. I mean, it was interesting.
00:22:04interesting. I picked up on Emily Emily suggesting that maybe you could could join the European Union, not
00:22:08not have free movement. I mean, I I cannot see that happening because because as I said, it's in the Treaty
00:22:12Treaty of Rome. The Four freedoms, freedoms, freedom, freedom of movement,
00:22:14movement, people, capital and services. services. That's absolutely non-negotiable.
00:22:18non-negotiable. So we have been on on a journey which is taking us more more in the direction of thinking
00:22:22thinking the EU is a good thing. thing. But for us to rejoin the European
00:22:25European Union would have to go on on a journey that it hasn't gone gone on, which would probably have
00:22:29have to take us back to something something like our membership terms,
00:22:32terms, which is not in Schengen, Schengen, not in the euro. That would
00:22:35would be a hard negotiation because
00:22:38because we would be obliged. Joining Joining after the signing of the the Maastricht treaty, after the
00:22:42the signing of Schengen to do that. that. But the EU would have to go
00:22:45go on a journey and think that they they want us so much that that would
00:22:48would be acceptable. That journey journey has barely started on the
00:22:51the EU side, so it's a long way to to go. Imagine that journey after
00:22:55after you've got Marine Le Pen in in the Lyse and AfD perhaps and knocking
00:22:58knocking in Berlin. You know, it it might be a very different Europe. Europe. By the way, would that be
00:23:02be one that the current Remainers Remainers would like to join? I'm
00:23:04I'm not sure. But, you know, it's it's conceivable that the populists
00:23:08populists really come to the fore fore in the EU and think, OK, let's let's have country club membership.
00:23:12membership. Let's be less oppressive oppressive like this. Look, the polls, polls, they always complaining about
00:23:15about this so you can see that happening. happening. But you can also see a
00:23:19a club that I don't think the centre centre left would be very keen on
00:23:22on joining one a little bit. I think think I was just gonna say I think
00:23:25think that's a really important point point is the EU has changed. Europe Europe has changed so much since
00:23:29since then. It's not the Europe of
00:23:31of Merkel, Renzi and Hollande. It's
00:23:35It's the Europe of Le Pen potentially potentially going to be the President President hot favourite to be president,
00:23:38president, the AfD in Germany, Meloni Meloni in Italy. You know this is
00:23:43is a completely different European European Union. And I think we need need ensure that when we're talking
00:23:46talking about this, you talk about about the polling about Brexit and
00:23:50and how it's gone. Actually, we're we're in a new moment and we need
00:23:53need to consider what's best for for now. Whatever people think of
00:23:56of what happened in 2016 and beyond. beyond. You asked the Prime Minister
00:24:00Minister for some reassurances today. today. Just briefly remind our audience
00:24:02audience what you wanted to know. know. And were you reassured? Well,
00:24:06Well, I wanted that confirmation confirmation on freedom of movement, movement, and I hope that we'll get
00:24:10get that in due course and that we we won't be returning to free movement.
00:24:13movement. I mean, as we again go
00:24:16go back to that conversation. So So it's not popular. So I don't think
00:24:19think it's going to happen, but I I think it would be helpful if we
00:24:22we did rule it out. I mean, Andy Andy Burnham's position because you you asked me about the red lines,
00:24:25lines, which are in the manifesto, manifesto, which is no free movement,
00:24:27movement, no customs union. And he
00:24:30he said basically that stands for for this Parliament manifesto stands
00:24:33stands for this Parliament. But what what he's talking. About the short-term.
00:24:36short-term. For the future relationship relationship is after the general
00:24:39general election. Yeah. So you if
00:24:42if you don't want it to be in your your manifesto, you need to be talking talking to him. Well, you can see
00:24:46see there's a diversity of views views in the parliamentary Labour Labour Party. And you know, the debates
00:24:49debates on. And the lid, by the way, way, is off. And we if anyone wants
00:24:53wants to keep going down this road, road, then he can expect lots of
00:24:56of pushback. I mean, Jonathan is is not the only Labour MP representing
00:25:00representing Brexit leaning voters. voters. I mean. But he might welcome
00:25:03welcome that. I mean, Andy Burnham Burnham might welcome that. He seems
00:25:07seems to want to have these arguments. arguments. Look he may want to kiss
00:25:10kiss goodbye to the red wall. I'd I'd be surprised if he did. But previously
00:25:14previously the kind of the idea of of let's move on from this seem to
00:25:17to be look at his what I call his his make her feel pledge when he
00:25:19he was standing to be an MP again. again. He was saying it'd be crazy crazy to reopen this debate. He said
00:25:23said that in order to win Makerfield, Makerfield, as soon as he's down down here in Westminster, he now
00:25:27now starts to say something different. different. That's not a good look.
00:25:30look. And look, my own gut feeling feeling is that in the next few weeks
00:25:33weeks and months, the more he tries tries this, the more he'll see. There
00:25:35There is nothing but pain for his his party in opening this box. What
00:25:39What if it does lead to what if it
00:25:41it does boost growth? The elusive elusive growth, the good decent growth
00:25:45growth of maybe 2.5%. I know you're you're going to tell me. We'll look
00:25:48look at the eurozone. They're not not growing very much. What if it
00:25:51it boosted it here. Well what you've
00:25:54you've answered your own question question but let me quote let me me quote House of the European Union.
00:25:58Union. He said it could add ten. ten. Has been growing a lot slower
00:26:00slower than us. If GDP is the metric metric that we all focus on, and
00:26:03and I think we sometimes focus on on it too much, but given that's
00:26:06that's the one we focus on, Germany Germany has been way behind in terms
00:26:09terms of growth and France about about the same as us. So in terms
00:26:12terms of our comparable neighbours, neighbours, it's hard to think that that it's going to be this panacea
00:26:16panacea for all our country's ills. ills. It's a distraction. And it's it's interesting. I remember talking
00:26:20talking to Andy Burnham two weeks weeks before the referendum ten years years ago, and he was pretty clear
00:26:23clear that he thought there was a a real chance that there would be be a leave vote. And he thought that
00:26:27that was wrong. But he was very respectful respectful of the leave voters because
00:26:30because his then constituency leave leave voted for leave. He was very
00:26:34very respectful of them and thought thought that sort of Westminster Westminster was out of touch with
00:26:37with them in that rest of politics politics interview, he talked about
00:26:40about how now, how Westminster opinion opinion is behind public opinion
00:26:43opinion on Brexit and he thinks public public opinion has once again gone
00:26:46gone in a different direction, more more favourable to membership than
00:26:50than the elite is what he's saying.
00:26:52saying. And on that point, you know,
00:26:55know, a lot of my constituents and and constituents of many other MPs
00:26:58MPs in areas of the country like like mine think that Westminster
00:27:01Westminster treat them with contempt.
00:27:05contempt. And if Westminster went went back and said, you know what,
00:27:09what, we're going to relaunch that
00:27:12that because you're wrong. It would would not be good for our politics.
00:27:15politics. It would not be good people. people. Not allowed to change their
00:27:18their mind then. Well. I think we
00:27:22we know that most of Westminster
00:27:24Westminster didn't want this to happen. happen. And they were very surprised
00:27:28surprised when this wake-up call
00:27:31call came from the population. And
00:27:33And the reality is I don't feel like
00:27:35like we've heeded that call. Still Still now we're ten years on and
00:27:39and do you think Brexit has. Been
00:27:40Been a skill. Pulling the lever that
00:27:43that marks listen to us, listen to
00:27:45to us out in the country. So there's there's no way this would be good
00:27:49good for our politics if we reopened reopened it. Do you think Brexit
00:27:51Brexit has been a success? Well, Well, that's a different question, question, isn't it? That's a very
00:27:55very different question. Your answer answer to where we are now. But if
00:27:57if we think about immigration, for
00:28:00for instance, which is what this this was about, there's two different
00:28:04different sides to it, aren't there? there? EU migration fell off a cliff
00:28:07cliff and that was what was driving
00:28:09driving huge levels of net migration migration 300,000 a year. We thought
00:28:12thought that was high in those days days and it fell off a cliff. It's
00:28:15It's net negative now, right? So
00:28:19So on that score, well people got got what they voted for. What we
00:28:23we didn't counter was the Boris wave, wave, the Tories flinging open the
00:28:27the doors nearly 1,000,000 in 1 year year and similar for other years
00:28:30years as well from outside the EU. EU. No one was thinking that was was going to happen. OK, right quick
00:28:34quick look at some of the stories stories on tomorrow's papers the the Guardian PM. Britain's relationship
00:28:38relationship with the EU is not good good enough. The Independent Burnham
00:28:42Burnham I'll let voters decide to
00:28:44to rejoin Europe. Mail Burnham in
00:28:46in retreat over Russia. Brexit lies
00:28:48lies and the times. Disability benefits
00:28:52benefits for 120,000 teenagers cost cost the taxpayer 1 billion a year.
00:28:55year. This is a huge push by The The times to have a look at welfare.
00:28:58welfare. Fraser Nelson I haven't haven't left you very much time to
00:29:01to talk about it, but go ahead. This This teenagers angle. Well this is
00:29:04is the times as well for an inquiry inquiry is looking at all aspects aspects of the welfare state. Now
00:29:08Now this is particularly shocking shocking because we're finding £1 £1 billion is being given in cash
00:29:11cash to teenagers for conditions
00:29:14conditions like ADHD and other anxiety anxiety depression. And why is that
00:29:18that shocking? Well, it's shocking shocking because the kids who actually actually want help and go to the
00:29:22the NHS, they are put in a massive massive waiting list. We also reveal
00:29:25reveal almost 500,000 children have have been waiting ten months for
00:29:29for the first therapy appointment. appointment. Now that money can be be used to give the kids what they
00:29:33they want children they want help. help. They're not asking for cash. cash. Our system is geared to giving
00:29:37giving them cash in lieu of care. care. It's one of many ways that
00:29:40that the welfare state is failing failing in its duty to look after
00:29:43after people and dispensing cash cash is a very poor substitute to to doing what the government should
00:29:47should do, which is give therapy therapy to children who are asking asking for it. Is it your view that
00:29:51that Andy Burnham, when he gets the the Alan Milburn review, will grip
00:29:55grip this? Well, a lot of people people are hoping that Andy Burnham
00:29:58Burnham will do. I mean, we've had
00:30:00had the Milburn review and the Mayfield Mayfield review into the workplace
00:30:03workplace and sickness. We've had had the times review stepping stones
00:30:06stones to an obvious segue of welfare welfare reform. I think there's a
00:30:09a great chance for cross-party consensus consensus on this. And if Labour
00:30:13Labour the Labour Party can't do do it, the clues in the name, then then what is the Labour Party for?
00:30:16for? Thank you both very much this this evening. Thank you. That is
00:30:20is it from us. We're back tomorrow.
00:30:24tomorrow. Good night.
00:30:43MUSIC
00:30:48Hello. I'm Amanda Walker in
00:30:50Washington and this is BBC World
00:30:52World News America. Russia hammers hammers Ukraine for another night
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