Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:00the hood on the entertainment and and news business, exploring the the companies and personalities who
00:00:04who command our attention and how how our perception how our perception of the world is
00:00:07is shaped by them. The Media Show.
00:00:11Show. Hello, I'm Ros Atkins. And. And. I'm Katie Razzall and this week
00:00:14week on The Media Show how student, student, national and social media
00:00:17media have covered the investigation investigation into alleged rape at
00:00:21at Cornell University. We look at at the challenges newsrooms across
00:00:24across the US face when reporting reporting the story. We'll also examine
00:00:27examine how Hungary's media has changed changed six months after Viktor Orban
00:00:31Orban was voted out. And we catch
00:00:33catch up on an icon of British broadcasting,
00:00:36broadcasting, Anneka Rice. She reflects reflects on five decades in the media
00:00:40media as a newsreader, children's children's TV host and presenter
00:00:42presenter of the famed entertainment entertainment show Challenge Anneka.
00:00:46Anneka. That's all coming up on The
00:00:48The Media Show. But first to a story
00:00:57story that has generated vast amounts amounts of media attention both in
00:01:00in the US and around the world. It's
00:01:02It's the story of a student at Cornell Cornell University who alleges that
00:01:06that she was drugged and raped by
00:01:08by several men at a fraternity house house in 2024. Prosecutors in New
00:01:12New York state are reopening the the case after the woman filed a
00:01:15a civil lawsuit last month in which which she alleged Cornell had failed
00:01:18failed to protect her and adequately adequately punished the men involved.
00:01:22involved. One of the reasons the the story has gathered so much attention
00:01:25attention is the reporting of the the Cornell Daily Sun, the university's
00:01:29university's student paper. In an an editorial it named the men in
00:01:32in the lawsuit and criticised the the university's handling of it.
00:01:35it. No criminal charges have been been filed against the men. Well,
00:01:38Well, the story raises any number number of important questions for
00:01:41for the media from why and when national national and international media
00:01:44media pick up a story or issue to to the nature of the reporting, to
00:01:48to the way the story is played out out quite differently on different
00:01:51different social media platforms. platforms. We began by speaking to
00:01:54to Kathleen Bartzen Culver, professor professor of journalism ethics at
00:01:58at the University of Wisconsin, Madison.
00:02:01Madison. I think too often in journalism journalism we have a tendency toward
00:02:04toward covering events and not covering covering issues that makes us think
00:02:08think of a single case of sexual sexual assault as something to be
00:02:11be reported on, rather than the many many sexual assaults that occur on
00:02:14on campus. It happens all the time
00:02:17time across many issues. We report report on an election rather than
00:02:20than the issues behind the election
00:02:22election in depth. And when it comes
00:02:24comes to the Cornell Daily Sun, this.
00:02:26this. The university student newspaper newspaper they as they did publish
00:02:31publish the names of the men, as as I was saying, who were alleged
00:02:34alleged to have committed these offences, offences, was that an editorial risk
00:02:37risk under US law, or is that different
00:02:39different from here in the UK? It
00:02:42It is different in the US from there.
00:02:44there. In the UK they have quite
00:02:46quite broad protection for publishing
00:02:49publishing truthful information that that was contained in official court
00:02:52court filings. So because this was was a lawsuit that was filed and
00:02:55and the names were included, they they are broadly protected for publishing
00:02:59publishing that as long as they're they're doing so accurately and in
00:03:02in context. So this was not as much
00:03:05much a legal decision for the students students at The sun as it was an
00:03:08an ethical one. And as this story
00:03:11story has played out, we've seen seen a number of outlets publish
00:03:14publish different forms of information information relating to the story,
00:03:17story, not least texts and phone
00:03:19phone calls between some of those those involved. From what you've
00:03:23you've just said to Katie, newspapers newspapers would be able to publish
00:03:26publish this within the law. But But from an ethical point of view,
00:03:30view, what are the considerations considerations for American newsrooms
00:03:32newsrooms as they report this? So So the considerations are the same.
00:03:36same. The ethical considerations considerations are the same as we
00:03:38we see with any difficult reporting reporting decision, which is what
00:03:42what are the benefits from running running this information? What public
00:03:45public interest are we serving in in doing it, and what are the harms
00:03:49harms that arise? And so if this
00:03:51this was a filing that included these,
00:03:54these, I have to say horrific text
00:03:57text messages, but in some way they they were taken out of context or
00:04:01or the wrong person was identified identified that could raise tremendous
00:04:04tremendous harm. We're also seeing seeing quite a bit of discussion
00:04:07discussion on social media about
00:04:09about the harm of retraumatization retraumatization for other victims.
00:04:12victims. So people who have faced faced this in the past on campuses
00:04:16campuses and in other contexts. And
00:04:19And so those things also always have have to be weighed carefully. Another
00:04:23Another consideration, of course,
00:04:25course, is should this result in
00:04:27in criminal charges, whether we can can empanel a jury that will be fair
00:04:31fair and impartial. And those decisions
00:04:34decisions also or those harms also also factor in. Kathy Bates and Colby,
00:04:37Colby, please stay with us. But here here in the studio with me and Katie
00:04:40Katie is Doctor Robert Topinka, reader
00:04:42reader in digital media at Birkbeck Birkbeck University of London. And
00:04:46And Robert, thanks for joining us. us. You're here to talk about the the discourse we've seen around this
00:04:50this story online and in particular particular how it's varied from one
00:04:53one social media platform to another. another. Just help us understand understand what you're seeing. Yeah.
00:04:57Yeah. You can see sort of competing
00:04:59competing ideological camps playing playing across competing platforms.
00:05:02platforms. So over on X you have have sort of Christian nationalist
00:05:06nationalist influencers, manosphere manosphere influencers who share share the idea that traditional masculinity
00:05:10masculinity is under attack. And And so they see this case and the
00:05:13the naming of the alleged perpetrators perpetrators and not of the alleged
00:05:15alleged victim as evidence of that. that. So there's been widespread
00:05:18widespread speculation on X of who who the victim is, whether they can
00:05:21can reveal that person or not. And And so in response over on platforms
00:05:25platforms with a more progressive progressive user base, places like
00:05:28like TikTok and Reddit, you've seen seen this campaign emerge around
00:05:30around the hashtag I am Jane Doe. Doe. And people are sharing that
00:05:33that for two reasons really. One One is to change what you see when
00:05:36when you get search results to affect affect the AI synthesis of what's
00:05:40what's out there, and also to win win the intention battle and the
00:05:43the sort of battle for how this narrative narrative will play out in the media.
00:05:46media. So on TikTok, they see themselves themselves as directly competing
00:05:49competing against what you're seeing seeing on X. Does this mirror what
00:05:52what you see more broadly when stories
00:05:54stories play out? Can we now attribute
00:05:57attribute or anticipate how people people on certain platforms will
00:06:00will respond? Yes. I mean, you can can ideologically and when you have
00:06:03have a story like this that fits fits into people's particularly on on X right now, a sort of preconceived
00:06:07preconceived idea about what's happening happening to masculinity. They have have their interpretations ready
00:06:11ready to roll out. So we often think think about disinformation and misinformation.
00:06:15misinformation. And here both sides sides are kind of taking details
00:06:18details that were released in the the lawsuits that are verified information,
00:06:22information, but they're interpreting interpreting them in wildly different different ways and sharing their their ideas about them in wildly
00:06:26wildly different ways as well. So So it's more about their kind of of ideological interpretation of
00:06:29of it. And it's really a battle for for who's going to control the narrative,
00:06:32narrative, who will win the attention attention economy battle over this.
00:06:36this. And Doctor Topinka, we often often on the show talk about how
00:06:39how a story played out and what came came first. We were talking earlier
00:06:43earlier about how it started in the
00:06:46the university paper, but do you you think part of the reason why
00:06:49why this story has become so high high profile is because of social
00:06:52social media? Has that driven it?
00:06:55it? It's certainly driven the way
00:06:57way people are debating how this this should be interpreted. So I
00:07:00I think, you know, as Doctor Culver Culver was saying, part of what sparked
00:07:02sparked this story was the dedicated dedicated reporting from the Cornell
00:07:05Cornell student paper, but also already already on social media, particularly
00:07:08particularly on X, you have this this narrative that liberal universities, universities, particularly Ivy League
00:07:12League universities of which Cornell Cornell is one, are out of touch
00:07:15touch with sort of mainstream values. values. So this is another example
00:07:18example for some people of that happening happening of feminism having gone
00:07:21gone too far of men being under attack attack where women are not. And then
00:07:24then over on TikTok, you have people people wanting to combat that idea
00:07:27idea and using I am Jane Doe, both both to share their own stories of
00:07:31of experiences with sexual assault assault and also to share solidarity
00:07:34solidarity with the alleged victim victim and to compete against those those sort of sorts of interpretations.
00:07:38interpretations. And we should probably probably just explain the Jane Doe Doe point for people who aren't aware
00:07:42aware of it. Yeah. So Jane Doe is is the anonymous name that's typically
00:07:46typically used in cases like this this where someone has been as accusing
00:07:49accusing someone of sexual assault assault or rape, for example, and and it's to protect the anonymity
00:07:53anonymity of the victim and to protect protect them from what's happening
00:07:55happening right now on X actually.
00:07:57actually. And can we in any way compare
00:07:59compare what's happened with this
00:08:01this story to how the hashtag MeToo
00:08:04MeToo story developed or not? Is
00:08:07Is it is this one very much connected connected to the Cornell story solely?
00:08:10solely? I mean, these sorts of hashtags hashtags always start with an event event that precipitates the whole
00:08:14whole thing. I think what's really really interesting about the I am
00:08:17am Jane Doe hashtag as opposed to to me too is whereas MeToo was public
00:08:21public figures with status and celebrity, celebrity, I am Jane Doe has been
00:08:24been started by ordinary internet internet users. One of the videos
00:08:26videos that went viral on TikTok TikTok with 5 million views. That
00:08:29That account has like 9000 followers. followers. So this is ordinary people
00:08:32people who are shaping this narrative. narrative. Although I have been aware aware of the actress Florence Pugh
00:08:35Pugh getting involved in this on on social media, I was aware of that. that. That was one of the very early
00:08:39early bits of me being aware of this this story, actually. Yeah, there's there's and there's been other celebrities
00:08:42celebrities like Josh Gad, but it's it's different in the sense that that they're not starting this conversation
00:08:46conversation and they're really not not driving it. They're showing support support for it, which I'm sure is
00:08:49is welcome from people posting this this hashtag. But really where it
00:08:52it started is ordinary people. You You can find Reddit forums where where people are discussing, look,
00:08:56look, here's why we need to use this this hashtag. It will change what what you see in the AI search results.
00:09:00results. It will change the narrative narrative post that your Jane Doe
00:09:03Doe and then they won't be able to to know who it is. So this is really really pretty grassroots in a way
00:09:07way that MeToo was in some ways, ways, but was really more of a kind
00:09:10kind of Hollywood story. This is is ordinary people. Professor Botson
00:09:14Botson Culver, if I could bring you you back in at this point, given
00:09:16given that civil proceedings have have been begun and that the authorities
00:09:20authorities in New York state are are considering whether to bring
00:09:23bring criminal proceedings, are there there risks both for news outlets
00:09:27outlets and for regular people posting
00:09:28posting on social media if they share
00:09:31share details that could in any way
00:09:34way affect those proceedings that
00:09:36that the authorities are going through.
00:09:39through. So in the US, no, there's there's not a lot of liability for
00:09:42for news outlets. Or individuals individuals in sharing information
00:09:46information as long as again, that's that's truthful information. And
00:09:49And it was obtained from a public
00:09:51public record. Now going on and doing
00:09:55doing sleuthing, going and finding finding someone on the Cornell campus
00:09:58campus to out Jane Doe or to say
00:10:01say salacious things about her that
00:10:03that will have less protection. But
00:10:05But what we're finding in these social
00:10:07social media firestorm legal cases
00:10:11cases is people very, you know, sort
00:10:14sort of unable but also unwilling
00:10:16unwilling to take the continued hits
00:10:19hits of pursuing any action. So we
00:10:22we had a very notable case involving involving a mother who tragically
00:10:25tragically killed her three young young children and then tried to
00:10:29to kill herself. Her husband was
00:10:31was the focus of wild conspiracy
00:10:35conspiracy theories online, and I I would be surprised to see him sue
00:10:38sue for defamation or anything like like that just because it would keep
00:10:41keep the keep the case alive and and he wants it to go away. Both
00:10:44Both of you, thank you very much much indeed for taking us through through that. That's Kathleen Bartzen
00:10:47Bartzen Culver, professor of journalism journalism ethics at the University
00:10:50University of Wisconsin, Madison, Madison, and Doctor Robert Topinka
00:10:53Topinka reader in Digital Culture Culture at Birkbeck University. And
00:10:57And Cornell University's president, president, said on Sunday that he
00:11:00he supported the decision to appoint appoint the New York Attorney General
00:11:03General to lead a criminal investigation investigation and welcomed an independent
00:11:07independent review by a law firm firm of how Cornell has handled the
00:11:10the matter. The university has previously previously defended its handling
00:11:12handling of the issue to date, saying
00:11:14saying it conducted an extensive extensive investigation that lasted
00:11:18lasted several months following the the report of the incident and that
00:11:21that it followed applicable federal
00:11:22federal civil rights law. Now, in
00:11:27in April this year, Hungary elected elected Peter Magyar. This ended
00:11:31ended Viktor Orban's 16 years in
00:11:33in power. Under Orban, reporters reporters Without Borders ranked
00:11:36ranked Hungary among the worst EU EU countries for press freedom. He
00:11:39He and his allies were estimated estimated to control directly or
00:11:43or indirectly around 80% of the media. media. While the new Prime Minister
00:11:46Minister promised sweeping reforms, reforms, including suspending state
00:11:50state media news until conditions conditions for objective, impartial
00:11:53impartial reporting were in place. place. We spoke to the BBC's East
00:11:57East and Central Europe correspondent correspondent Nick Thorpe, who's who's been looking at the progress
00:12:00progress made so far. It was very
00:12:04very much dominated by the governing governing party narrative. Bullet
00:12:08Bullet points were issued to public public service radio at the beginning
00:12:11beginning of the week. Public service service television as well. And it
00:12:14it wasn't just the public service service media, but a large group.
00:12:17group. I think it was just under under 500 titles from the commercial
00:12:21commercial media were sort of rolled
00:12:23rolled together as part of the Fidesz Fidesz media empire. But perhaps
00:12:27perhaps one of the ways they influenced influenced discussions so much, or
00:12:30or rather they dominated the agenda
00:12:33agenda of the country was through
00:12:37through a short one minute news slots
00:12:40slots on, for example, music radio
00:12:43radio on sports programmes. When When you were watching the World
00:12:45World Cup, for example, the one minute
00:12:47minute media that would be very much
00:12:49much a very biassed reporting with
00:12:53with no chance for opposition politicians politicians or very little chance
00:12:57chance for opposition politicians politicians or for independent experts
00:13:00experts to give their views. So it it was very one sided indeed. And
00:13:04And what was what did that mean for for journalists and for independent
00:13:07independent journalists? Were there there did they did did independent independent journalists survive under
00:13:11under Orban? They did survive. And
00:13:15And perhaps they were surprisingly surprisingly resilient. They struggled
00:13:17struggled financially. They could could not get advertising from any
00:13:21any state companies and actually
00:13:23actually not from other private companies.
00:13:25companies. Even big German or other other foreign companies that didn't
00:13:29didn't want to upset the government government of the day. So they struggled
00:13:32struggled financially. But there there was a kind of resistance from
00:13:36from them. Sometimes I think they they went too far the other way,
00:13:39way, as it were. Independent media
00:13:40media became something like opposition
00:13:43opposition media in the absence of
00:13:45of a strong parliamentary opposition.
00:13:48opposition. But they survived in
00:13:51in terms of finances, many shifted
00:13:53shifted to a subscription based model,
00:13:55model, which is sort of helping them
00:13:57them move on into the future as well well now. And so Hungary obviously
00:14:00obviously has now got this new Prime Prime Minister been in power for
00:14:03for some time now. What did he promise promise when it came to the media?
00:14:07media? And what's his attitude to
00:14:09to the media? He's promised to return
00:14:13return public service broadcasting broadcasting to the public. Really?
00:14:16Really? He says he's open to criticism.
00:14:18criticism. He actually closed down down or when the new government came
00:14:22came to power, actually in July,
00:14:24July, they closed down the news programmes
00:14:27programmes of public service radio
00:14:29radio and TV for 44 days so that
00:14:32that they could be revamped. Some Some of the old journalists who'd
00:14:35who'd been particular party loyalists
00:14:37loyalists were thrown out. Others
00:14:40Others came in and the media were were relaunched. And I have to say
00:14:44say it's a vast improvement. Listening Listening to the morning radio programme,
00:14:48programme, watching the news in the the evening, it hasn't become as
00:14:51as the new opposition as Fidesz is
00:14:53is in opposition have. Alleging or
00:14:56or alleging a kind of that that they they haven't become a sort of mouthpiece
00:14:59mouthpiece of the new government. government. There's a refreshing
00:15:03refreshing sort of attitude of holding holding the new government to account,
00:15:07account, bringing on opposition politicians politicians as well, bringing on
00:15:10on independent experts, interestingly, interestingly, also there's less
00:15:13less politics on. There was a survey
00:15:16survey in one of the survey organisations
00:15:18organisations just recently, the
00:15:21the Republican Institute saying that
00:15:25that whereas in the same week in
00:15:27in September last year, 88% of programming
00:15:30programming on the evening television television news was dedicated to
00:15:33to politics. Now that's shrunk to
00:15:35to 55%. So other issues apart from
00:15:38from everyday party political issues issues are getting much more space space in the media. That's quite
00:15:42quite a big jump, Nick. And as you've you've already alluded to, some people
00:15:45people might ask the question, well, well, OK, it's good if the media
00:15:49media is not putting Orban's point point of view, but you don't want want to flip to a situation where
00:15:52where someone else's point of view view is receiving prominence or not
00:15:55not as much attention if there's there's been a drop in politics,
00:15:58politics, has the new Prime Minister Minister put any systems in place
00:16:01place to ensure that his perspective perspective and the perspective of
00:16:05of his allies, whether explicitly
00:16:07explicitly or not, are being prioritised prioritised through the new media
00:16:11media system? No systems in place.
00:16:16place. But he is a sometimes abrasive abrasive personality, so he's not
00:16:20not shy of criticising individual individual journalists. I've been been in press conferences with him
00:16:24him where he's laid into some of of my colleagues in the independent
00:16:28independent Hungarian media, so I I don't think it's going to be an
00:16:31an easy relationship with the media. media. But it's you know, I find
00:16:35find it very refreshing to see his
00:16:38his policies being criticised, you you know, publicly on public service
00:16:42service media as well as in private private media or commercial media. media. You know, there's one scandal
00:16:46scandal going on at the moment of
00:16:49of an official senior official in
00:16:51in the environment ministry in the
00:16:54the Ministry of the Living Environment Environment who photographs of him
00:16:57him have emerged having shot lions
00:17:00lions and elephants in Africa are are now thanks to those reports,
00:17:04reports, there's a lot of pressure pressure on the government to sack sack him. Nick. You're saying you're
00:17:08you're finding it refreshing? I wonder wonder if there's any way we have
00:17:10have of measuring what Hungarians Hungarians as a whole are making
00:17:13making of these shifts. Yeah. Again, Again, the same public opinion surveys
00:17:17surveys are saying that on the whole whole people are pleased about the
00:17:21the changes. But I think there's there's also a strange thing happening
00:17:24happening here that Hungarians got
00:17:25got so used to. The media really
00:17:29really parroting the government's government's messages that they're
00:17:32they're finding it quite stressful, stressful, I think, to hear proper
00:17:35proper debate, proper debate on the
00:17:37the floor of Parliament, proper debate, debate, politicians being challenged
00:17:40challenged on air. You know, it's it's stressing some people out, especially
00:17:43especially older generations who who really got used to, you know,
00:17:47know, almost like, you know, I've I've been here a long time, more
00:17:50more than 40 years. And in communist communist in the communist era, you
00:17:53you only had one side then. And I I think people sort of got used to
00:17:56to that new sort of washing over over them. And now to hear proper
00:17:59proper debate, I think people are are finding, you know, why is there
00:18:02there so much conflict in this society society when in fact, you know, proper
00:18:05proper debate? That's what we as as journalists should be feeding,
00:18:09feeding, I guess. Now next on The
00:18:12The Media Show, we are joined by by an icon of BBC broadcasting, Anneka
00:18:16Anneka Rice. She's been a newsreader, newsreader, a children's TV presenter
00:18:19presenter and has fronted factual factual entertainment formats too.
00:18:22too. She's probably best known for for the entertainment show Challenge
00:18:26Challenge Anneka, where she was set set task to solve a big issue when
00:18:29when she knew nothing about it, often
00:18:31often in a short time frame and by
00:18:33by mobilising lots of volunteers. volunteers. The programme saw Anneka
00:18:37Anneka build orphanages, playgrounds playgrounds and soup kitchens in
00:18:40in its original incarnation it ran
00:18:43ran from 1989 to 1995 and drew audiences audiences of up to 12 million people.
00:18:47people. Let's take ourselves back back to that golden era and the very
00:18:50very first time challenge Anneka Anneka aired on BBC One. For this,
00:18:53this, we'll need a 38 tonne lorry
00:18:55lorry an impossibly short deadline deadline and an inexhaustible supply
00:18:58supply of Anneka Rice. Hello there,
00:19:01there, we're in London, the River River Thames, Albert Bridge right
00:19:04right behind me. I'm about to be be set a challenge. I have no idea
00:19:07idea what that challenge is going going to be. All I have been told
00:19:11told is to lurk here by a bus stop.
00:19:13stop. So that's what I'm doing. But
00:19:16But she's not by bus stop now. She's She's live on The Media Show. Anneka
00:19:20Anneka Rice, welcome. I feel quite quite tearful. I feel quite emotional
00:19:23emotional hearing that. I know yes,
00:19:27yes, it's lovely to hear that and and lovely for you to reference some
00:19:31some of the work I've done because
00:19:33because I am celebrating 50 years
00:19:35years at the BBC this autumn. Literally
00:19:38Literally 50 years ago I started started as a young trainee at the
00:19:41the World Service and so age 70,
00:19:4570, very keen. It was a two year year training course and I, you know,
00:19:49know, particularly lovely to be on on The Media Show actually was as
00:19:52as because it's repeated on the World
00:19:53World Service so I can genuinely
00:19:56genuinely feel I bookended my career. career. There you go. Yes, you're
00:19:59you're right, The Media Show is on on is on the World Service. And I'm
00:20:02I'm curious as a keen 17-year-old,
00:20:0417-year-old, no doubt very ambitious ambitious and talented, what was
00:20:08was it that drew you to the trainee trainee scheme? What was it that
00:20:11that made you think this is the route
00:20:13route I want to go? I went to see see a recording of the Generation
00:20:17Generation Game at Television Centre.
00:20:18Centre. My boyfriend took me. I had
00:20:21had no experience of any media or or anything. I was at Croydon High
00:20:24High School doing A-levels, couldn't couldn't wait to leave school and
00:20:28and just get working. I was bright bright but I needed to get out from
00:20:31from work. You know, I didn't come come from a background where there there was money to do all those things
00:20:35things and he took me to the generation
00:20:37generation Game and I sat in that
00:20:40that studio age 15, and if I could could have stow away if I was on
00:20:43on a boat, I'd have run away to sea.
00:20:45sea. I loved the whole atmosphere,
00:20:47atmosphere, just got under my skin. skin. And I love, love, love the
00:20:51the BBC. And for me as a child it
00:20:54it it was such a bedrock of security
00:20:56security for me because I grew up up listening to Junior Choice with
00:20:59with Ed Stewart on a Saturday morning
00:21:01morning and that's a show I now present
00:21:04present on Christmas Day, which is is thrilling to me because I've literally
00:21:07literally become Ed Stewart. But But the BBC represented security
00:21:11security to me, and I don't think
00:21:14think people really love the BBC BBC enough for that. You know, wherever wherever you are in the world or
00:21:18or wherever you are, you turn on on the BBC and it to me it feels feels like coming home. It's always
00:21:22always felt like that. I'm curious curious though, Annika so the World
00:21:25World Service now makes digital content, content, TV and radio, but when you
00:21:28you joined it, it was a radio service.
00:21:30service. And even at that point did did you think, well, I'm enjoying
00:21:34enjoying this, but actually TV is is where I want to be. I want to
00:21:38to be the person on the screen. No, No, never. Not once. I absolutely
00:21:42absolutely swear that from that moment moment I saw Generation Game, I was
00:21:44was very happy just to hold up. Hang
00:21:46Hang up. Bruce Forsyth's coat or
00:21:49or type some scripts. I was not ambitious
00:21:51ambitious in that way. I loved the the atmosphere of the BBC and that's
00:21:54that's where I want to stay. That's That's where I wanted to. Hold on
00:21:57on then. So you're going to have have to help us make the jump from
00:22:00from that person that you've just just described. And the clip that
00:22:03that we heard at the beginning where where there you are beginning what
00:22:07what became an enormously successful successful TV show. So how did you
00:22:10you get there? What happened after
00:22:13after my two year training attachment attachment where I loved it, you
00:22:16you know, it was such fun. I then then split up with my boyfriend and
00:22:19and I was so devastated because he he and his family had been my bedrock
00:22:23bedrock of security all through growing
00:22:24growing up. And I, I felt completely
00:22:27completely rudderless and on my own own and I just jumped on a plane
00:22:31plane and flew off a resigned from from the BBC and the woman's personnel
00:22:35personnel woman's literally going, going, are you mad? People would would give their right arm for this.
00:22:38this. I said, save their arms, I'm I'm off. And I went to Hong Kong
00:22:42Kong because a friend, Shona, had had been there recently and said said it was nice and hot and I thought
00:22:46thought they spoke English and I I put all my savings into it. There
00:22:50There was no means of communication communication when I got there because because there were no phones or anything,
00:22:53anything, and I spent two years there
00:22:55there and I had the most amazing amazing adventures, which I write
00:22:59write about in my memoir, which. which. Ended up with you on screen,
00:23:02screen, sorry, which ended up with with you getting onto screen. Right.
00:23:05Right. But loads of other jobs first first and then I did end up as a
00:23:09a newsreader on the local station, station, but I wasn't sort of my
00:23:12my end game particularly. I was sort sort of enjoying being in the newsroom newsroom and writing the scripts,
00:23:16scripts, to be honest, as a subeditor.
00:23:20subeditor. But it did propel me in in front of a camera. So, you know,
00:23:23know, when I got back to the UK,
00:23:25UK, I was in a position to be able
00:23:28able to look around a bit more and and actually got a job as a reporter
00:23:31reporter at Thames TV. And then there there was this audition for this
00:23:34this new programme called Treasure Treasure Hunt, and they were looking
00:23:38looking for a fit bloke and I somehow somehow went along to the audition
00:23:42audition and we did a fake run around around Hyde Park. And after all these
00:23:45these other Olympic athletes had had had their go. And I heard Graham,
00:23:48Graham, the cameraman, say to Malcolm, Malcolm, the producer afterwards, afterwards, it's got to be Annie.
00:23:52Annie. She's the only one I can keep keep up with. So I got the job for
00:23:56for all the wrong reasons. But you you know, if I reflect back, one
00:24:00one of the things I'm most pleased pleased about is I'm told my programme's
00:24:04programme's really changed the media media landscape and most importantly, importantly, changed the way we look
00:24:07look at women because you forget forget you've just heard my O level
00:24:10level thing. But up till then women women were studio bound. This is
00:24:14is the early 80s, usually flanked flanked by many men or Benny Hill
00:24:17Hill was chasing them around a car car park dressed in a bikini. Well,
00:24:21Well, the woman, not Benny Hill or or they were draped over a car, you
00:24:24you know, on a quiz show. It needed needed something to disrupt the way
00:24:28way we looked at women and Treasure Treasure hunt just happened to be
00:24:31be that show. And as I say, I got got the job for all the wrong reasons.
00:24:34reasons. But I was in control. There There were no doors. There's wind
00:24:37wind in my hair calling the shots. shots. It was mind blowing at the
00:24:40the time and all the jeopardy of of my childhood and that time in
00:24:43in Hong Kong, living on my wits. wits. It all went into that role
00:24:47role and challenge. Anneka just came
00:24:50came out of that because I saw the the huge budgets that went into producing
00:24:54producing Treasure hunt and I thought, thought, what if I could invent a
00:24:57a show where you'd have all that that money to, to create something,
00:25:01something, but instead of it just just being a show that, you know, know, you either watch or you don't
00:25:05don't watch on a VHS because there's there's no streaming back, then let's
00:25:08let's do something that lasts. And And I went to see this show called
00:25:11called Chicken Shed, which is a sort sort of integrated theatre group
00:25:15group for children with disabilities. disabilities. And on the stage I
00:25:18I literally saw children in wheelchairs wheelchairs being pushed by able
00:25:21able bodied children. There was a
00:25:25a signer signing for a deaf child. child. There were blind children,
00:25:28children, there were Down's Syndrome Syndrome children, and there was was Ferris in the middle. It was
00:25:32was called Ferris in Wonderland, Wonderland, locked in her autistic
00:25:34autistic world. I want to go on. on. We're running a little low on
00:25:38on time. That's my only concern. concern. It was mind blowing because because I suddenly saw a community
00:25:42community on that stage and I literally literally realised that that was
00:25:46was what challenge was about. And And I just ran into Michael Grade's Grade's office at the BBC and said,
00:25:50said, can we do this? We want to to make the impossible possible.
00:25:53possible. And he said, yeah. That's
00:25:56That's it for this edition of The The Media Show. As ever, thanks very
00:25:59very much indeed for your company.
00:26:01company. Bye-bye. Bye. And if you'd
00:26:04you'd like to hear a longer version
00:26:06version of today's show, search BBC
00:26:09BBC The Media Show wherever you get
00:26:11get your BBC podcasts.
00:28:16have on inflation. What will it all all mean for Europe's economy? That's That's this week on Talking Business
00:28:19Business here on BBC News.
00:28:30That's this week on Talking Business here on BBC News. To Business here on BBC News. To me, trust is about presence. About
00:28:33fostering relationships all around around the world over years. We're
00:28:37We're not chasing stories. We're We're already there. It's about patience.
00:28:41patience. Not rushing to be the first first but striving to get it right,
00:28:44right, to. Get to the truth. Precision.
00:28:47Precision. Knowledge. Facts. Wading
00:28:49Wading through endless waves of disinformation. disinformation. We can't just ask
00:28:53ask the questions. We have to question
00:28:55question the answers. Debate, debate, debate, debate. We have to create
00:28:59create a space for opposing voices voices to be heard and challenged.
00:29:03challenged. We fight every day to
00:29:05to earn your trust. And we never
00:29:07never take it for granted. We capture
00:29:10capture the story. Fact check the
00:29:11the story. We break the story. We
00:29:14We explore the story. So you can
00:29:16can trust us to tell it. MUSIC
00:29:32Being able to inspire someone
00:29:34is always the greatest joy. I saw saw Souza one time at the Grammys,
00:29:38Grammys, and she said that she studied studied some of my songs for her her songwriting, and I thought that
00:29:42that that was the biggest compliment
00:29:43compliment ever. My support for Ukraine
00:29:46Ukraine is unwavering. It is 100%
00:29:50100% when the big names talk, they
00:29:52they talk to us.
00:30:10Live from Washington. This is
00:30:12BBC News. Russia hammers Ukraine Ukraine for another night as Ukraine's
00:30:15Ukraine's president vows retaliation retaliation if Russian strikes on
00:30:18on the country's energy grid continue.
00:30:22continue. And the BBC goes inside
00:30:24inside Yemen as Saudi backed government government forces work to regain
00:30:27regain control of coastal land from from the Houthis. As the ongoing
00:30:31ongoing war takes a toll on the population.
00:30:34population. This whole area has just
00:30:36just been retaken by pro-government
00:30:38pro-government forces. They captured captured at about three days ago.
00:30:42ago. Until then, the Houthis were
00:30:44were in control here. Hello, I'm
00:30:54I'm Amanda Walker. We start in Ukraine, Ukraine, where residents there have
00:30:58have faced another night