Google Cloud Speech-to-Text API (Chirp) + Gemini 2.5 Flash Non-Thinking. Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:00the fourth transformation, I believe it has advanced in basic
00:00:03rights for young people, young people building the future, has a high
00:00:06percentage of young people who integrate into work, Benito Juárez scholarships,
00:00:10universities, I believe that this social base is a
00:00:14containment to easy discourses, although
00:00:18they exist in Mexico and are impacting, the other I think is economic, I think the
00:00:21economic integration we have with the United States is a and
00:00:25at the economic moment that the United States is experiencing, I think it is a
00:00:29dike. that prevents
00:00:32go stronger in these
00:00:35discourses and in these campaigns in our country, ah that the United States self-contains,
00:00:39I believe that at the moment it cuts ties basically with Europe, with Canada
00:00:43and and your really your only strong commercial partner left
00:00:47is Mexico, it is convenient for it to
00:00:50stability in the country and it self-contains
00:00:53from advancing more strongly against those discourses
00:00:57and I think there we have a an... oxygen space that we
00:01:01should not waste, we should not
00:01:06leaderships within
00:01:08and and in that of the that the risk, in that there is a risk of trust that the right does not have a political figure, we are seeing that my law is not a political figure, Flavio Bolsonaro does not come close to Lula
00:01:12at all and is one point away, so they don't need a political
00:01:15figure because they have the financing and they have the
00:01:18algorithm that can place anyone in a campaign, so they didn't have it, they
00:01:22converted Sochil Gálvez into a presidential candidate in 2024,
00:01:25exactly, but I think that
00:01:27well, aren't they finding out we cannot trust that for 2030. I think
00:01:30the legislative branch of reform of the fourth
00:01:34transformation that is Morena, that is, when
00:01:36legal modifications have to be made to improve the lives of
00:01:40workers and young people, they have to be made, for example, the
00:01:45the exhaustion of 40 hours cannot be haggled over, it was already done, but if there start to be demonstrations again, if there starts
00:01:48to be a push again from young people to improve their living
00:01:51conditions, they cannot be haggled over because the right will not wait and the right will sell them
00:01:55an easy discourse, so unfortunately, as we discussed, the
00:01:59left has to transform the material life of
00:02:02people, there Morena has a very important
00:02:05role and this has to push, keep pushing very hard
00:02:09and not hesitate when it comes to that and obviously there is also
00:02:13a very difficult role which is to balance the part of
00:02:17workers and and private initiative, but we also
00:02:20have to start changing the way we lead, that is, we work with
00:02:24young people, young people want to work, they are talented
00:02:27but they do not want to put their. mental health before work, nor
00:02:31their family, nor their free time, in
00:02:34Mexico, so we have to start as leaders to balance that part, for
00:02:38that technology works, that is, for that if you can have, I don't know, half
00:02:42a day free and the other day you have to work at home, let's do it, we have to start
00:02:45working on those parts as leaders, because otherwise the right will start
00:02:49selling easier discourses like get on your motorcycle and
00:02:53have your free time, which is the discourse of salida pliegos of
00:02:56self-employment exactly, so I think you agree. I
00:03:00think that also an important sector, that is, so that the
00:03:03right or rather because I think it's not just the right
00:03:07the core of racism, the core of but a certain type of far-right that is winning,
00:03:10no, that is not eh let's say that
00:03:13this agreement as of tolerable right-wing
00:03:16governments in Latin America, but it is
00:03:20about something else, no, that is, it has some
00:03:23ingredients of course that I think are similar in
00:03:26some cases to those of the United States, but I think that... that
00:03:30also to determine if that right-wing voter can grow in Mexico
00:03:33is precisely shared, so based on these premises, I see it as
00:03:36complicated because a good part of a
00:03:40vote, if we associate perhaps a conservative vote
00:03:43with the right, I think it is also within Morena and
00:03:47is within what is currently governed, that is, that could not
00:03:50be explained with the indices, you talk about the evangelicals of
00:03:54what, in general, that is, I think that socially
00:03:58eh, well Hugo Eric Flores now has. another party called Paz,
00:04:01no, which I don't think will be very
00:04:04average conservative voter is within, let's say
00:04:08this coalition, no,
00:04:10also eh, there is the voter of the Green Party, for example, I
00:04:14think that is a voter more associated, let's say
00:04:18to business groups, to another
00:04:21sector, no, but I think that also socially a conservative
00:04:24vote is within Morena, at a time when
00:04:28sovereignty and when nationalism, let's say, that discourse is
00:04:32exacerbated by the American threat and that the right cannot
00:04:35it will be a free-market
00:04:39right-wing that surrenders, that is, as Gustavo is describing, so I don't see
00:04:43the conditions for that electorate to
00:04:47grow, that voter eh, on
00:04:50the other hand, I think that
00:04:52how your experience at the fair younger generations, no, I think they
00:04:56should be looked at eh beyond
00:04:59a left, right or far-right, what they
00:05:02will vote for, rather I think it has to do with an
00:05:05issue of alienation that can
00:05:07generate certain platforms, technology,
00:05:11certain. digital issues eh that we are already
00:05:14seeing can lead to episodes of violence
00:05:17that for eh comparing them with the United States,
00:05:21they are really minor, no, in the United States, school shootings and socially
00:05:24episodes of violence are very large, no, at the same time that access to
00:05:28technology and these forums in the United States is much greater because
00:05:31of the same proportions of the country,
00:05:35no, so I think that this there is a very
00:05:38very small remnant, really, of of of
00:05:42this far-right of Milei or
00:05:45Bolsonaro that can be successful in Mexico, yes, son,
00:05:49let's see, eh, within this, that's what resonates a lot with what you say, Emerson, I think
00:05:53that eh currently this new right asks you, it
00:05:56tells you no, as if it were an advertisement, everything they did
00:05:59before they did very badly, don't worry, let it go and someone else will do it for you, no, that
00:06:03is like the message and the left is a responsibility, it is an act of
00:06:07responsibility for you in your community collectively to change the
00:06:10history of the world and the planet, so.
00:06:12eh, it's a much more complex bet, however, I affirm, as
00:06:16a former president would say, that we have the best president in the world, and
00:06:20that not only do we think so within our country, 80% of Mexico
00:06:23thinks so, but they think so worldwide, it is
00:06:27impressive to see the phenomenon that President Claudia Sheinbaum causes internationally
00:06:31and that it has generated a network, I would dare to
00:06:34say, of protection, not only because of the, because there is also
00:06:37collaboration with the United States, no, that is another part, yes there
00:06:41is, so there is a part. that has to do with elections, with mid-term
00:06:44elections, with discourses, of course, there is another part that has to do
00:06:48with direct real collaboration with the United States, and there is another part that is this
00:06:52international shield that is not the shield of
00:06:55what is the shield of the Americas, the shield of the
00:06:58Americas, this is a real
00:07:01many international leaders, of journalists, of
00:07:04people around the planet who see a president who is really changing the
00:07:08history of our country and it is very difficult to break that through social
00:07:12networks because there is no way, exactly what Emerson said, let's see, the right even
00:07:16also the strength of the president's
00:07:20leadership, what you consider is currently
00:07:23stopping the advancement of a presidential option and
00:07:27a team that has worked around that is really
00:07:31showing results, in addition to that, I do believe that social networks
00:07:35in Mexico and particularly institutional
00:07:37apparatuses in Mexico, some have a lot of sense of humor and have managed
00:07:41to sneak into the national conversation in a totally
00:07:45different way, something they cannot do in other countries, no matter how much they
00:07:48have tried, well, I'm not going to talk about the memes that the
00:07:51president has had regarding the Rita Cetina scholarship, but she herself
00:07:55goes with young people, does this, does this
00:07:5967, that is, it has been so simple that she did manage
00:08:02to connect, she did manage to do, what is that, the
00:08:0567, sorry for my ignorance, it's that we don't have to
00:08:09know, that's the great advantage of 67, simply. she
00:08:13says: I can do this with young people and I can connect, she is a
00:08:16president who has managed to transcend this
00:08:20intergenerational conversation for good, to cross those limits
00:08:23and really get in there, so yes, I am thinking
00:08:26that the digital right does not have that
00:08:30same opportunity, but let's not say, let's not say never because we don't know, so
00:08:34it's better to prevent,
00:08:37exactly, well, I disagree, the truth is
00:08:41and I disagree for several reasons. chan chan chan eh, the first and most
00:08:44important is that it is not that
00:08:47this is the case, here I think that since we are talking about cultural
00:08:51issues, the danger is the construction of meaning, that is, it is not whether the
00:08:55message, whether the logic, it is not the meaning and how meaning
00:08:59is constructed today, a good part with social networks, with traditional
00:09:03media and with the intersection between both, no,
00:09:06so we are seeing this, so much so that even former
00:09:10president López Obrador said it. a few days ago, social networks are
00:09:14no longer the social networks of a few years ago, social networks changed and
00:09:17within this change is the appropriation, or rather the
00:09:21takeover that the right made, these
00:09:24groups made, so the risk here is not exactly whether the
00:09:27message, whether the eh, whether
00:09:30the proposal goes, the problem is in the creation of meaning that
00:09:34is being made and if this creation of meaning jumps through
00:09:38this apparatuses like memes or
00:09:41others. well, it begins, it no longer matters who
00:09:44says it, but how this message moves,
00:09:48on the one hand, no, and on the other, I think that it is also important
00:09:52eh to make this distinction, no, on the one hand
00:09:55it is communicative work and digital work that the federal
00:09:59government is doing, which seems excellent to me, but on the other
00:10:02hand there is this work of the parties, the work of the
00:10:06parties themselves and the work that other public officials
00:10:09have, no, eh, it seems important to
00:10:12me, this, well,
00:10:15to consider this because in the end eh I think
00:10:19that the error here, that an error
00:10:22is to believe that there is a communication problem when the problem is an organizational
00:10:26problem, the organizational problem is
00:10:29eh, it replicates, it repeats in all
00:10:33networks, just enter any social network, that is,
00:10:37until recently TikTok was the least intoxicated, no longer,
00:10:39it is no longer the case, and it is an algorithmic
00:10:43takeover, it is a takeover of spaces and this takeover of spaces
00:10:46occurs yes due to the technical characteristics themselves, but
00:10:50it also occurs due to social interactions, no, so while I don't
00:10:54think that in the short term this will generate an electoral
00:10:57risk, perhaps it could generate certain
00:10:59problems eh in the short term
00:11:02and especially in cities in highly
00:11:06connected spaces and dependent on social networks, we also have to make this
00:11:09distinction, no, because there are spaces where social networks don't even smoke because
00:11:13that's not in their reality, that and they don't
00:11:16care eh and on the other hand, in the
00:11:20medium-long term, there I would find the risk, no, this
00:11:23specifically in Mexico. But in what do you specifically
00:11:26disagree? In
00:11:30las redes sociales
00:11:33digital right in Mexico, of the digital right in Mexico, yes, but
00:11:37we agree on that, no, well, that is, if there is a
00:11:40risk, the question is why
00:11:44have they not been as successful in Mexico as they have
00:11:47been in other Latin American countries, that is a fact, not from 2024 to
00:11:51date, let's say, no, well, but if we look at it on social networks,
00:11:55they basically dominate it, yes, but they don't determine
00:11:58anything in reality, that is, one thing is the, I think, the capacity for noise that
00:12:02you can generate on social networks, TikTok, whatever, and another thing
00:12:06is that it translates into social decisions or social movements or
00:12:10political decisions, that is, I do see a lot of noise, no, that is,
00:12:13in this intoxication of networks by
00:12:16the right, but I see that it has little support
00:12:20in public decisions, political decisions
00:12:23or or the pulse of the...
00:12:55right-wing objectives, the famous pendulum thesis never worked, the pendulum
00:12:59got stuck on the right side and the far-right almost
00:13:02arrived with Felipe Calderón, it didn't arrive, that is,
00:13:05the far-right arrived, that is,
00:13:08disguised as democratic transition and
00:13:11all this discourse that the transitologists
00:13:14have made in the style of Pepe Woldenberg, whom I respect
00:13:18very much, but they are absolutely
00:13:20wrong, that is, because the
00:13:23mechanisms. the rules of the game could have been
00:13:27improved, but the core of the matter, the core of contempt,
00:13:32poverty in Mexico was increasing in
00:13:35comparison with the rest of the countries of Latin America,
00:13:39yes, which also had very strong right-wing governments, but here it was
00:13:4236 years and
00:13:45that also there is a short-term memory in
00:13:49Mexican society that is influencing and well,
00:13:52we always had right-wing media, that is. Pisa
00:13:56was and is the kingdom of the
00:13:59right, yes, of a right that sets
00:14:02a canon of a white society,
00:14:06anti anti-feminist, that is, it is
00:14:09a very misogynistic television station that lives
00:14:13off melodrama, Brazil and Colombia also live off melodramas, but or
00:14:16Venezuela, but off some melodramas a little
00:14:19more realistic, no,
00:14:23here it was all said.
00:14:25Wrote bonsiz, that is, the first generation of Americans born in Mexico was the one that
00:14:29fed that idea
00:14:31of the eh media
00:14:34right that at the same time had an
00:14:37even more right-wing competition, of course, yes,
00:14:41that is, the issue is that here nobody rivaled
00:14:44until now Mexican
00:14:48electronic right,
00:14:51the discourse and narrative.
00:14:55until López Obrador arrived,
00:14:57no, so I think there is a context that is very
00:15:01different from that of other Latin American countries,
00:15:05two, on the other hand,
00:15:08the cultural transformation in Mexico
00:15:11did not necessarily
00:15:14networks, it happened through other things, it happened through migration, it happened
00:15:18through the situation of women,
00:15:21through a, well, the recent
00:15:25Inegi data is there, the accelerated
00:15:29growth of women's preparation, of women's academic
00:15:32preparation that is not compensated,
00:15:36let's say. with a higher
00:15:39income than men, but it also explains the
00:15:43phenomenon of Claudia Shaw, that is, the phenomenon of Claudia
00:15:47Shahman is not only that López Obrador gives
00:15:51her the staff of command and keeps it,
00:15:54no, Claudia Shaw has a fundamental
00:15:57political capital
00:16:00eh of her own that has to do with this silent revolution of
00:16:04women in Mexico, there is no, except.
00:16:08one single far-right
00:16:11trying to govern, so I think there is also a very
00:16:15important factor in this issue, because even
00:16:19the options of right-wing
00:16:23to the lady of
00:16:26the elatinas
00:16:29no, whom unfortunately not even her
00:16:32parties support her and
00:16:35three, I think there is a synchronicity issue
00:16:38or asynchronicity with the United
00:16:42States, that is, I was
00:16:45also listening to the testimonies
00:16:47in
00:16:50in Brazil where they still see and observe
00:16:54Trump as a savior saying well
00:16:57Lula fought with Trump over tariffs and that's why we are doing badly
00:17:00economically and you say
00:17:04what is happening in the United States. that
00:17:07is, what is happening is that on the one hand
00:17:11these far-right groups are ascending, which I don't give
00:17:14more than 4 years of misgovernment, look at my law,
00:17:18facing the decline of Trumpism, and facing the
00:17:21decline of Trumpism, Mexicans took a very intelligent
00:17:24attitude, the truth is, we have taken a very
00:17:28intelligent attitude, not to go headlong,
00:17:30yes, except for such ridiculous
00:17:33characters, neither so memeable, let's say, nor.
00:17:41who would be in any case the representative of a center-left
00:17:45or center-right alternative and he has already gone to the
00:17:48far-right, that is, Alito has already
00:17:52stolen that space from the
00:17:55PAN and Ricardo Salinas
00:17:57Pliego, Ricardo Salinas Pliego who is
00:18:00applying almost
00:18:02rigorously
00:18:05all.
00:18:07the ingredients that must be applied to become
00:18:11a true
00:18:13son of the che yes and that with
00:18:17that he will manage to be a
00:18:19candidate or a cub of the T or a cub of the
00:18:22T yes, that is what I think we are
00:18:26missing, now obviously and Ernesto is right about
00:18:29that, we must not lower our
00:18:32guard, the issue is very delicate because the
00:18:36digital rights
00:18:38are trying to enter with great
00:18:42force in Mexico, they have not succeeded, but they are there, I don't know what you think,
00:18:46well, all this reminds me of this phenomenon, social networks par excellence and we have
00:18:49commented on it at other times in public debate, they concentrate
00:18:53and fragment the conversation, they don't concentrate it, they fragment it, so
00:18:56we are talking about this right now and surely someone on the other side of the screen has
00:19:00no idea because they don't get the same information, no, that
00:19:04is, everyone has different fragments of this information, but... that
00:19:07in Mexico that experience
00:19:11what happens, for example, in Argentina is that this informative
00:19:14bubble generated by social networks leads to you suddenly
00:19:18voting for a Milei and when it's time
00:19:21to regret having voted for Milei, it's too late because
00:19:25anyway those informative bubbles concentrated votes and
00:19:28concentrated information, here there is a bit of that preventive
00:19:32brake, but we also don't know how far, that is, how far
00:19:36we can keep pressing. that brake, I mean, I think
00:19:39yes, but it can be something pernicious
00:19:43in the long run to trust that because of our own experience a more
00:19:46intelligent mechanism will not
00:19:50what already, I don't know, I sincerely am going to say something that I might
00:19:54mejor en algún día me arrepiento de eso, pero creo que hay que
00:19:57agradecerle a Salinas Piego, muchísimo, verdad, sea, está
00:20:01vacunando de una manera a la sociedad
00:20:06of the right. totally so
00:20:09effective because
00:20:12you say let's see, that's the, that's
00:20:16a typical social network message,
00:20:19no, where everything is reversed on him,
00:20:23that is, he couldn't even reverse that,
00:20:26he didn't want to, that's where you see his lack of strategy,
00:20:30no, when they yell that at a man who was
00:20:33following the by the book of everything, that is, following
00:20:37almost the rules of Cerimedo, he was
00:20:40stunned, no, and he still continues
00:20:44and continues and López Obrador is right, that is,
00:20:48Mexicans of any age and of any generation and of any gender
00:20:51do not like to be insulted
00:20:54for their physical
00:20:58and racist,
00:21:01moreover, as in the case of Salinas Priego, or for your sexual
00:21:05preference or, another
00:21:07so what Salinas Priego is doing is
00:21:11that his own television station is more right-wing
00:21:13than social networks and than digital
00:21:17platforms, so it's a fantastic vaccine.
00:21:22I don't know if I'll regret saying that someday, what do you think? I don't know
00:21:24because
00:21:26I mean, let's go to the case of Argentina
00:21:30with my law, what happened? Eh, I think two
00:21:33years, a year or so after
00:21:36started to be against him,
00:21:39started to turn around, started to go down
00:21:42in popularity, my law of Miley
00:21:46happened, this case of his sister who this the bribes that
00:21:49this corruption came to
00:21:53days before the election, but
00:21:56candidates won and he gained
00:21:59Congress, so it seems to me that, but don't you think that tells
00:22:03you more about the deep crisis of
00:22:06in the end, success that conditioned the
00:22:09vote with the issue of the IMF and repression, that is, people go out to
00:22:13protest and are repressed by the police, that is, no, but what
00:22:16I mean is, it seems to me that
00:22:21it is not replicable, that is, all phenomena are not replicable,
00:22:25no, of the contexts, ah no, yes, of course, of course social, in the case for
00:22:29example of Brazil, yes,
00:22:31I observe
00:22:35younger generations in the face
00:22:39of something that no longer tells them anything, yes, a bit like what
00:22:42Gustavo was commenting, no, there is an interesting phenomenon in Brazil that has nothing
00:22:46to do so much with Lula or with this election between Flavio and Lula, but rather it had to do with the.
00:22:50Congress with the chamber where two kids, two very very
00:22:53young people, two influencers ended up like peacock,
00:22:57peacock, Pavoleta Nick and who just
00:23:01have profiles like Charlie Kirk's, that is, you say well this
00:23:04type of characters are indeed sneaking in
00:23:08counterweights, they are, let's say,
00:23:12the media figures but they are not
00:23:15part, no,
00:23:18but I don't think they are describing
00:23:22Brazilian landscape, I think Brazil is very complex, I think
00:23:26we are still seeing it partially, I still think
00:23:29there is still a lot to digest,
00:23:32the political cunning of
00:23:34Lula is impressive when he says well
00:23:38let's go for the abstainers or he knows perfectly well
00:23:41that there is political capital there in which he
00:23:45can convince, especially with the electoral characteristics that
00:23:48Brazil has, that is, voting is mandatory.
00:23:50then there is
00:23:54still a margin of maneuver, now what is
00:23:57real is that even if Lula won in the second electoral
00:24:00round, which is becoming more and more difficult, there is a very clear
00:24:04right-wing shift in municipal
00:24:07governments, state governments, and Congress,
00:24:10no, and I think that also speaks
00:24:14to us, that is,
00:24:16in the case of Argentina, for example, he conditioned it, he
00:24:20said Donald Trump said I'm not going to
00:24:21give him
00:24:24the IMF loan if they don't vote for this guy, for my law,
00:24:28that is, and a little bit now offering the
00:24:32$500 if he wins, that is, he wants to buy the
00:24:35vote, basically, that is, money,
00:24:38big money, that is, and I think that's not
00:24:42sustainable, that is, uh, let's say, in the long
00:24:46term, that is, I think the serious
00:24:50thing, as in the case of the United States, if they get a setback next November 3rd in the
00:24:54United States, for Trump, in Congress, if he loses the
00:24:57presidency, uh, well, there will
00:25:00be a, well, a Trumpism, even if Donald
00:25:04Trump is no longer there, if Lula wins, there will be a
00:25:07Bolsonarism, that is, society is already,
00:25:10let's say, intoxicated in that sense too, that's right, that's
00:25:14right, well, just to continue with the vaccine, we have to make a campaign, the
00:25:18media, we have a very strong job to tell young people that this normality
00:25:22in Mexico is not normal, neither in our history nor in the world, no,
00:25:25that is, scholarships, support for young people building the future,
00:25:29that your grandfather has a pension, that you don't have to be worried about what your
00:25:33grandfather, your mother will eat so that you can go to study, it's not a normality in the
00:25:37country, it's not a normality in the world, we have a job to explain to
00:25:40young people how that struggle was reached and how those rights
00:25:43were achieved so that there is no setback, I think there is an important job for the
00:25:47media, we have one minute left, wrap up, I think there is also a
00:25:50very important job for political parties,
00:25:54uh, especially in building
00:25:57uh, structures, structures beyond communication and quick
00:26:01messages, and I think that... it can be done, it should
00:26:03be done, and there are parties that have social capital to move forward, the
00:26:07thing is to know how to organize and
00:26:11translate the organization, it seems to me that that is the most important challenge,
00:26:14but well, there are capacities, there are possibilities,
00:26:17and most importantly, there is hope, no, yes, very
00:26:21good, Luisa, they will not pass,
00:26:25that's right, they will not pass, no matter how many tweets, no matter how many
00:26:28comments, no matter how many networks, and the networks will also self-destruct.
00:26:34I hope they will return to being what they were 20 years ago,
00:26:38that is the desire, it will not
00:26:39happen,
00:26:42no, I am worried that they will happen, but within Morena, that
00:26:46is to say, the true danger of the digital right
00:26:50in Mexico is that it manages to enter the only political structure that is
00:26:54having success in this country, which is called Morena, that is
00:26:57the real risk, that is,
00:27:01the incapacity of Morena to generate
00:27:04alternative
00:27:08the progressive line will be occupied by right-wing
00:27:12figures, and that is real, it is
00:27:16on the table, and we must not underestimate
00:27:19this alert, I feel that I am not the only one, I am not
00:29:36Welcome, everyone, welcome to How was
00:29:40it at the fair, broadcasting from the
00:29:43International Book Fair of the Zócalo in this
00:29:4626th edition, celebrating
00:29:49books, celebrating readers, celebrating you for allowing
00:29:52us to accompany you, my name is Luisa Iglesias Arvide, that's the
00:29:56least of it because today we have a conference, a debate
00:29:59yesterday at the inauguration Paco Ignacio Taibo 2. director
00:30:02of the Economic Culture Fund said it as it is, this is a
00:30:06left-wing fair, whether you like it or not, and what is
00:30:10all this about debating, sharing,
00:30:13mixing ideas, today we have fundamental guests, in
00:30:17the main forum, here in the Federico García Lorca, none other
00:30:21than Gustavo Petro will be giving a very
00:30:24important conference, we are going to talk very closely
00:30:27with Alfonso Sagasta,
00:30:30historian, you can't miss it. Above all, we want
00:30:33to ask him what he is reading, what he is reading, what book he loves, what book he hates,
00:30:37what book he wants to buy and can't find, here we have more than
00:30:40350 publishing houses, more than 300
00:30:44national and international guests, and of course, as a gift,
00:30:4712 books for everyone, if you want to join us
00:30:51here, we will ask you again