Google Speech-to-Text API Automatic Transcription (Chirp). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:00mass transit systems are important and
00:00:04the uh
00:00:04with CNG buses and all that, I think government could have doubled
00:00:08down on that and
00:00:10of make sure that at least in interstate travel uh
00:00:14we can we can face that in very quickly to minimize
00:00:18the the impact
00:00:18of these high uh prices of petrol so those are
00:00:22some
00:00:22of the things and few more notes can be turned um
00:00:26the what has been
00:00:27me proposed and I need to make
00:00:29me this uh point, I looked at the yesterday I listened to
00:00:33the minister of finance, the first thing that
00:00:37occurred to me is this is not really the NMPC have
00:00:41done this 66 n
00:00:43of thing on independence day, so it was something that I'm aware that they have
00:00:47done, it was just to celebrate, so what I
00:00:50hear now is okay
00:00:51we are spending it for a month the whole of October, great, but it is not
00:00:55material, it is not material and the
00:00:59other issue. is um
00:01:00is almost like is discriminatory um so if NBC is selling
00:01:0460
00:01:05me less uh how many retail
00:01:07out less maybe 900 out less out of maybe
00:01:102300 uh licensed outlets in the country
00:01:13so uh
00:01:15you know I was going to have quees at NMPC does did anybody look at that was
00:01:19the implication when this really are we going to have long cues and
00:01:22then uh the other stations will be dry and would not have anybody
00:01:26waiting uh so
00:01:27there are a lot of uh my my issue about
00:01:30of the way we do policy is that it looks like we announce them first before we think about
00:01:34them, i think we should spend a bit more time design
00:01:37and and and evaluate the impact
00:01:40of these policies before we announce them, do not
00:01:43think that this which is probably 4%
00:01:47of is
00:01:47material, i'm
00:01:51glad you listened to to the minister yesterday and he made lot of
00:01:55explanation around that
00:01:57of that that is just for um is temporary. just for a month
00:02:00of and they may decide uh to look into that later, but let
00:02:04me
00:02:05of go to uh Dr. Adilye uh before subsidy was
00:02:09removed, we were doing around I think 200 and something n
00:02:13per liter and now we're having to deal with um
00:02:16how many percentage now about um
00:02:201,00 or there about I can't I can't put it together now
00:02:24but
00:02:25of imagine 200 and something per liter and
00:02:281,350. to your 400 depending on where you're
00:02:32buying um the question again is the
00:02:35debate around subsidy do you think subsidy should come back the government
00:02:39has said
00:02:41of coming back will be will
00:02:43me a lot more um negative
00:02:47things that could happen
00:02:49but what is your take on that?
00:02:50okay
00:02:53um do not agree that subsidy should
00:02:57come
00:02:58of back of but in actual fact. what we need to
00:03:01do to
00:03:02of reduce pump price is not subsidy.
00:03:06now what determines the price of petroleum
00:03:10products? there are two things:
00:03:13number one is the global oil
00:03:16price. number
00:03:19a two is importation overheads
00:03:22(expenses) so you talk about shipping, marine
00:03:26insurance, interest rate for people that are b.
00:03:31to import tank farm expenses and then you come
00:03:34to
00:03:36of distribution and that will take
00:03:37of me of back to
00:03:39a that proverb in youruba that he that
00:03:43under the orange tree must enjoy sweet
00:03:46orange if we go back because this
00:03:50discount that has been done is actually
00:03:54a reduction in the profit that NNPC could have
00:03:57made simple as that. just
00:04:00a reduction in their profit is
00:04:03not as sif they are selling below cost so
00:04:07to say so we are not even saying that we should
00:04:11sell below cost so let's look at the cost
00:04:14of uh upstream
00:04:18activity that is getting crude
00:04:21extracted from the ground if our cost
00:04:25of production that will give yield of 1 l is
00:04:29to now
00:04:32unfortunately our refineries in
00:04:34worry,
00:04:37of in cadun, they have issues, but there is good news, we have
00:04:40dangote refinery, dangote refinery is set
00:04:44up to make profit, we can actually take crude at
00:04:48our own
00:04:49of cost and
00:04:50of say, look, we need 50 million liters per day,
00:04:54if that is correct, how much will it cost you to
00:04:57refine for us? plus the profit you will make
00:05:01in refining, you have overhead, so let's say is 20ira per liter you are
00:05:05refining for us, so it means that okay, let's
00:05:09of add 10 for you so that you can have profit for
00:05:13refining, it comes to
00:05:15230, how much will it cause
00:05:19us to distribute around the country? oh, from legos
00:05:23to maduku is higher, maybe is 20 n, from
00:05:27legos to
00:05:28hugun or your is 10, you take the average and say okay, plus
00:05:32distribution, 230, let's say plus 20, it comes
00:05:35to 250, the station owners, we have their
00:05:39profit for them, and then that becomes the...
00:05:42price now the challenge with that
00:05:46and
00:05:46you know because the people in government they are also our friends and we
00:05:50cannot be here uh criticizing them, we can only
00:05:54advise and say can we do it this way, and that's why i think the
00:05:58government need to have a meeting, call a round table meeting, call
00:06:01expert to sit down together, what can we do to be the price, now
00:06:05when you do that, you now monitor
00:06:09that you have DPR, DPR has...
00:06:12in the charge. database of all petrol stations in the
00:06:16country and as they load from the refinery
00:06:20we know where the trucks are going and then you monitor
00:06:24that there is no hodding now we have the DSS we have the
00:06:27custom we have the police we have drone technology
00:06:31if any trailer is found crossing from
00:06:35Dawura to NJ to go and take the
00:06:39PMS away whosoever "you
00:06:41is will be sacked that same day,
00:06:45everybody sit tight, and by the way, let me say,
00:06:48Nigerians, they are the enemies of Nigerians themselves,
00:06:52the president, from what I heard, they
00:06:56have airmark a lot of money into
00:07:00CNG buses to cous the effect of transport
00:07:03cost, since they announced, we don't know,
00:07:07I have not seen so much these buses in my
00:07:10state, I have not..." so much these
00:07:13buses in lagus and that
00:07:16means some people somewhere they are
00:07:20sabotaging this country okay and so
00:07:23when we do this price cost pricing we can just
00:07:27have a one page law national assembly pass this law
00:07:31anti sabotage
00:07:33law
00:07:36dr you know one the challenges that i see you
00:07:40is what you have just mentioned what the initiative that government comes up
00:07:44with, it's usually in the space
00:07:48of of implementation, so let me take this to
00:07:52engineer, the challenge, one the challenges that I have
00:07:55seen that we have had to deal with over time,
00:07:59particularly when it comes to the price of um petroleum
00:08:03products, is that whenever it seems like the
00:08:06price goes down a notch, other
00:08:10price follows it, when just the mayor
00:08:14announcement, mayor announcements of increase
00:08:17in the price of pump of
00:08:21petrol at the pump, we find
00:08:25that everybody, once the government announces increase,
00:08:28pump prices increase automatically, but when there is
00:08:32reduction, pump prices take time to
00:08:36come down, and the reverberating effect of that
00:08:39also uh is... is it goes to the
00:08:43markets, the price of yam, price of tomato, price of rent and all
00:08:47those things and
00:08:49you just heard Dr. talking about some
00:08:52kind of sabotage law just so
00:08:56Nigerians can also help Nigerians the little way they
00:09:00can, what are your thoughts on
00:09:01that? well, I
00:09:05think the so, so yeah, it's a good, it's
00:09:08an important observation that price signals take time.
00:09:13to to transmit through any economy is not
00:09:15just in Nigerian everywhere in the world um and I
00:09:19think the the the velocity of that transmission is
00:09:22a function of other factors uh especially the supply
00:09:26side uh factors so I I think we need
00:09:30to I you know I hear this all the time but
00:09:34I think if we if we understand how the market works it will help us
00:09:37appreciate this um if
00:09:41prices go up and supply is sufficient pr will come
00:09:45down assuming demand stays
00:09:48stable right, so we need to understand that, so
00:09:52I am not for, I don't go about thinking about it as
00:09:56sabotage, I think I think people is
00:10:00abitrage here, people take advantage the market, but
00:10:03again this answer is to is to be for
00:10:06supply, so when supply is is sufficient
00:10:10enough, prices will respond. uh and they will
00:10:14come down and we've seen situations where that happen so so my
00:10:18sense is let's not cure the
00:10:22symptoms let's let's look at the root cause. the root cause
00:10:26is is we are an economy where most
00:10:29things are are undersupplied, so
00:10:33productivity is the is at the heart the challenge, so if we enhance
00:10:37productivity uh
00:10:38the price signals will travel faster. well, another leg to that
00:10:42conversation is another issue that raised a little while
00:10:46ago, and perhaps in some kind of reference
00:10:49to what the finance minister said about the fact that Nigeria does not
00:10:53as at now have enough crude to supply
00:10:57danguter refinery, perhaps because of some other of some
00:11:01other initiatives that have gone ahead, what are your thoughts
00:11:05on that uh, because I'm not sure that Nigerians even
00:11:08understand what that means, that's
00:11:12that's to you, engineer wake, oh okay,
00:11:15so my thoughts on how do
00:11:18we uh increase output so that we are at least able
00:11:22to supply our domestic refineries, I think the... of work is
00:11:26been done as we speak from what i see NMPC is working hard
00:11:29to the president has given them some targets, i think is 3 million
00:11:33barrels by 2030, i
00:11:36think and the i understand
00:11:40lot of work is going, it takes time to you know
00:11:43develop these projects, it takes time to execute
00:11:47them and get the volumes that we need,
00:11:51so that is ongoing, and i fully understand that
00:11:55some the incumbared uh
00:11:58uh flows, rude flows uh will might be freed
00:12:02up in in the next couple of months, so when that happens
00:12:06i think the unincumber unincumber
00:12:10volumes will become available for for for for the
00:12:13local refineries. the the challenge if
00:12:17you ask me is that the domestic prood obligation,
00:12:21that system is struggling, i think that's we all need to
00:12:25recognize that there are challenges with that and I'm hoping that
00:12:29as time some these market uh fiction will be
00:12:33addressed in time either through stronger
00:12:36regulatory intervention or through market forces
00:12:40themselves so is it we are going through a
00:12:44journey - lot has happened and and I think is
00:12:47important that uh we look back the last three four years
00:12:51a lot has changed the landscape has seen can
00:12:55vastly improved and we need to recognize that are there
00:12:59challenges uh supplying the local yes there are and i
00:13:03think with time those will be resolved uh but they are not going to
00:13:06happen uh like immediately well
00:13:09well one immediate thing that Nigerians are looking for is
00:13:13some kind of abitment something that relieves the pressure
00:13:17doctor again seem to be quoting him a little this morning talked
00:13:20about the the presidential initiative
00:13:24uh about CNG
00:13:28vehicles, the state governments don't have them, my
00:13:32apologies, this question is going to you
00:13:35engineer, they that the
00:13:39the the state governments out to be supplying
00:13:43uh at least some kind of mitigation, I saw some CNG buses in Lagos by
00:13:47the way, and they are heading to OB status or so, so is
00:13:51there an interv is there a role for governments in your own?
00:13:55union um engineer wakwe that that
00:13:58state government can do to mitigate some the challenges that they are, some
00:14:02the pressures that their people are encountering, particularly in
00:14:06terms of uh energy
00:14:08supply. yes,
00:14:12certainly um the CNG rollout has been very
00:14:15slow in my opinion and it's um
00:14:18and i agree with you, the state governors need
00:14:21to uh help get in there
00:14:25and remember that CNG we had near zero
00:14:28infrastructure
00:14:30CNG infrastructure so in the last five years you're trying to build out uh
00:14:33infrastructure for this
00:14:37new um energy source uh
00:14:41so my sense is that yes there's need there's an
00:14:45urgency here there's need for both federal and state
00:14:48governments to work together to ensure that we have national
00:14:51rollout even as we build out that... born
00:14:55infrastructure for CNG, I think is important that that um that
00:14:59is fast track, that would have helped switch most the demand
00:15:03for PMS away from PMS, so that would have been very,
00:15:06very, very, very helpful a time like
00:15:10this, sadly we are we are a
00:15:12bit, we are bit slow
00:15:16and we haven't quite gotten there, but I think that the state
00:15:19governors need to, people should you know
00:15:23put pressure on the state govern. to help push
00:15:26this uh uh program forward, I think is it, it
00:15:30will help. All right, let me go
00:15:33to Dr. um, part the discussion is
00:15:36what, the funds that have been saved
00:15:40from the removal of subsidy, what they have been used
00:15:44for, um, in 30 months, the government said they've saved
00:15:48over 15 trillion naira uh between
00:15:51June 2023 and December
00:15:542025, um, government said they
00:15:58used it um for nail fund, um, salary
00:16:01increase, wage award and all of that, what
00:16:05more do you think
00:16:07you know, government can do to show the people that
00:16:11yes, this money that we have saved from subsidy
00:16:14removal,
00:16:15you know, can be used in this other area just so it can
00:16:19touch the lives the people even as they struggle
00:16:23to to pay for petrol when they get to to
00:16:27the pump station, to the first
00:16:29station. okay, um, you
00:16:33know that um, communication is very
00:16:36key, very important and people
00:16:39respond to what they see physically around. I
00:16:43sympathize with the government because there have been a lot of
00:16:47borrowings that affected our crude oil
00:16:51that is available for us to push to local refineries, even if
00:16:55we want to adopt production cost pricing
00:16:58method, but as soon as
00:17:01subsidy was removed, you realize that
00:17:05state government began to... and
00:17:08heavily, what we share are the fact
00:17:12increased so much, I was expecting
00:17:15that few months after, how long does it take
00:17:19to place order to get vehicles into the
00:17:23country, I was discussing with a friend and he said, oh, do we need
00:17:27to even go to that extent, why can't
00:17:30you uh even commission innocent and say, give
00:17:34us buses in all the states, thousons? of
00:17:37buses now
00:17:40i if in all the state you have seen
00:17:43buses are taken 52 passengers and written
00:17:47boldly on them subsidy bus
00:17:50subsidy bus subsidy bus you don't
00:17:54need to speak to anybody that this is the effect
00:17:58of subsidy when there is increase in allocation to state
00:18:02government we need to probe into what the funds
00:18:06are being used for. health care facilities are to have
00:18:10increased, thank god health insurance is coming up in many states
00:18:14now um so the CNG
00:18:17investment that the federal government has
00:18:20done is not having
00:18:23effect uh and I think it
00:18:26bothers an implementation and those that are in charge,
00:18:30but in the last few weeks I've been hearing
00:18:34about the the chair the presidential initiative.
00:18:38uh on CNG talking about what is available,
00:18:42so
00:18:42we need to double our effort uh, if transport is
00:18:46cheap, if there is energy
00:18:48supply into your house, you don't need
00:18:52petrol to power your small generator,
00:18:56if we have a discounted amount
00:19:00of solar package for small income
00:19:03earners, people who don't need more
00:19:06than just two b. the four panels, barber
00:19:10shop, hairdresser and all these, if we are
00:19:14able to do that, and I'm also aware that there
00:19:18are motor bikes, tricycles that are being
00:19:21purchased either electric or with CNG
00:19:25as well, so if we litter the whole place with all these
00:19:29affordable infrastructure and
00:19:33the pressure and the demand for PMS.
00:19:37reduce and so you're not going to bother, take for example, if
00:19:41you live in United in London for example, you are not
00:19:45going to bother yourself about how much they are selling
00:19:49foil, because with your oyster card you get into the buses,
00:19:53you get into uh train at the underground stations and you
00:19:57can live there for years without thinking about having a car,
00:20:01so the other infrastructure, public goods
00:20:04that all to be in place to cous. the effect
00:20:08of floating the naira and removal of subsidy
00:20:12uh is what is lacking and we need to do
00:20:16something quickly, forget about people saying policy is
00:20:20for is because of politics, as far as i'm concerned, every
00:20:24policy of government has desire good, and the desire
00:20:27the government from what i can say is that the one life to be better
00:20:31for the people, no government want people to be in pain, and we
00:20:35must get that right, and if we are not getting the result, it
00:20:39means we need to sit down together and say, hey, people are
00:20:42suffering, there's problem, they take home cannot take
00:20:46them home, and I told the NLC chairman in my state that,
00:20:50asking for 500 thous minimum wage is not the
00:20:53solution uh the money we evaporate in your hand with
00:20:57inflation, what we need is public goods that
00:21:01will be in place to cousion the effect of this
00:21:04liberalization because we have the petroleum industry act
00:21:08pia uh it controls
00:21:11what can happen in that sector otherwise investor
00:21:15will run away let me let add here let
00:21:19add here the refinery dr.
00:21:21yes, government should fix the refinery. there is
00:21:25another conversation on that, because the minister has said
00:21:29that you know lot of money have been sunk
00:21:32into trying to rehabilitate you know
00:21:35this refineries and what do we have to show for
00:21:38it? so if you say government should fix the refineries,
00:21:42isn't that money that could have been used for other things just so
00:21:46that because if lot of money have gone into? and we
00:21:50still can't find any positive,
00:21:53outcome, do you think we should still go that
00:21:56way? well,
00:21:59um, just you and I, we're we're together as
00:22:03citizens, the money that I've been spent there,
00:22:07some people were in charge, we need to ask question, what is
00:22:11going on, why is dang refinery working, why is our own
00:22:15not working, but let's give in that we
00:22:19don't have. let's conclude, bua is coming up with
00:22:23one, dangute has another, these are private sector,
00:22:26so as soon as we solve the
00:22:29encombered quantity of supply that we have
00:22:33to make from our crude production in the next couple of
00:22:37months, as my colleague said, then we can begin to look at
00:22:41those refineries, private sector and say what is your cost of
00:22:45refining for us, plus the profit, we know the
00:22:48cost of production, I keep saying he who
00:22:52sits under an orange tree most enjoy a
00:22:56sweet orange, you cannot
00:22:59price PMS at the price that
00:23:03Kenya is getting it, because importation cost,
00:23:07marine insurance and then the global crude
00:23:11oil price is they are factors
00:23:14and so we can do something, the
00:23:18sabotage law I mentioned. is sabotage law
00:23:22against smugglers, who take advantage
00:23:26that PMS is cheaper in Nigeria and
00:23:29that 50 million liters that is needed, they now want to show
00:23:33change the people by taking it to the border, so if we
00:23:36have the anti-sabotage law that
00:23:40will deal with this people, DSS, police, custom, civil
00:23:44defense, they are capable of getting
00:23:47anybody, now we can let go of small cages.
00:23:52the because closeness, but when we see a
00:23:56truck crossing they border, then whoever is in
00:24:00charge to be heard responsible. okay, okay, engineer w
00:24:04um, that is another kettle of fish, because if we have talk
00:24:07about refining in Nigeria and even the ones that in the
00:24:11past have been subsidized, you see that you know they find their
00:24:14way crossing crossing the borders, but now let's talk
00:24:18about how much more we have spent as a
00:24:21country on rehabilitation uh turn
00:24:24around um uh repair of this
00:24:28refineries that we have
00:24:30and um Dr. said that people
00:24:34who were in charge should answer for
00:24:37I think we've spent over 25 billion
00:24:40dollars
00:24:41you know uh over the years in in the last I think two decades
00:24:45of this country trying to bring back to
00:24:48life some of this refineries, do you
00:24:52think that we should look in that area or
00:24:56should we create that enabling
00:24:59environment for more private sector people to come
00:25:02in? yeah, um, i
00:25:06think let's let's think about, so we can talk about
00:25:09the the issue around the state on
00:25:13refinary what they do, well NNPC is a company,
00:25:17is camera company today, so it owns so he has to
00:25:20make and i think they are doing some evaluations to see best way
00:25:24forward so i need to make the point that the
00:25:28challenges we have today uh would
00:25:32still have them even if we had 100% domestic
00:25:36refining that's just the way i see
00:25:39it i don't think that these are this is a global
00:25:43shock and it's transmitting ac
00:25:46all economy answer why why do you say we will still continue to have those challenges?
00:25:51Yeah, that's that's that's exactly what I'm trying to explain, if
00:25:54assume we we had
00:25:58enough refining capacity, we are refining locally, we will see.
00:26:02buy crude, so the big issue here is
00:26:05that the cost of crude has hit the roof, those refinaries will still be
00:26:09fed with crude, expensive crew, so I'm saying that this is
00:26:13a global shock and it is transmitting across
00:26:17economies, not just hours, so it's not a domestic
00:26:20problem, right, so even if we had
00:26:24sufficient enough local refining, we will still
00:26:28have to address the current challenges we face
00:26:32so... that's kind of is important that we make
00:26:34that point
00:26:37uh and you can debate whether or not you want to do uh
00:26:41production uh cost pricing for crude or you want to bench
00:26:44market the important thing is that today uh the crude is
00:26:48been b much globally there's an international so that's how we are
00:26:51pricing it um so I asked the
00:26:55question about whether we should see if
00:26:59we can do more in terms of bringing those
00:27:02refineries to life or create
00:27:06that just give a minute, i'm trying to answer that
00:27:10question, so i have to lay this foundation to say whether or not
00:27:14we have those refinaries active, not have addressed our
00:27:18current challenges, are you saying it will make any difference if we have them
00:27:21active, is that what you say,
00:27:24it will, that's
00:27:24what i'm saying, it will, mean how do you, let me put it this
00:27:28way, um, maybe today tangot is
00:27:32refining so we are getting maybe 60% of our system, how much
00:27:36has that changed our situation uh in term currently with
00:27:40what we are dealing with, so the it's important that we, I'm
00:27:44saying that the decision to reactivate the refineries is being
00:27:48handled by the owners the refinery, in this case NMPC,
00:27:52so I know they are they are evaluating and doing all the work that they
00:27:56need to do to land on the best way to
00:28:00reactivate or to hand do the rehabilitation of
00:28:04those,
00:28:05so I will let that be uh, my, I will wait for them to come
00:28:09back and tell Nigerians what they intend to do. However,
00:28:13it's, I, I, I just wanted to clarify that the
00:28:17current shock that we have faced is a
00:28:20global shock, and it it wouldn't have mattered
00:28:24even if we had two million barres domestic refinend, I
00:28:28think we would have the impact would be very minimal, so that's...
00:28:32important that we said that so that people understand what
00:28:35issues are. okay, now let's let's talk
00:28:39about mitigating
00:28:42impact. i'll come to you,
00:28:45dr.oyi, immediate
00:28:47mitigation, clearly the federal government initiative
00:28:51as lofty as it sounds and all the explanation that you gentlemen you've
00:28:55been given, it will seem like the initiative the federal
00:28:59government is in in itself is not enough. to
00:29:03one persuade Nigerians and two make any meaningful
00:29:06impact,
00:29:07what other elements need to come to play uh, is there
00:29:11a role for state governments, is
00:29:13there a role for for private sector practitioners, is
00:29:17there a role for the downstream distribution channel, what who are
00:29:21the people or what are those things that need to be done to mitigate
00:29:25immediate impact? this intervention that uh
00:29:29Mr.ele mentioned is just for 30 days.
00:29:32so what are the mitigations that you think should be in
00:29:36play now so that Nigerians will at
00:29:39least you feel a bit of
00:29:41relief? number one is
00:29:45that um discriminatory
00:29:48discount uh is not good for
00:29:52us uh we must consider
00:29:54everybody. um the second
00:29:58thing is that we need to do lot of campaign about
00:30:02patr. in Nigeria so that people do not
00:30:05abuse uh the policy that government
00:30:09intends uh to have positive impact
00:30:13on the people, so people don't just get discounted price and
00:30:17then begin to sell higher rather than transport people
00:30:20around. the third thing is that the subnationals have
00:30:24responsibility, the state government, the local
00:30:28government. i have not seen a
00:30:32state like Legos, Legos is trying, so you have the
00:30:36blue rail, you know, why can't we
00:30:40connect the three senatorial district in all the
00:30:43respective state with train, is
00:30:47doable, and it's not rocket science, um, during
00:30:51my my my PhD research, I went to first rail
00:30:55in Scotland and we found out that these things are not
00:30:58rocket science,