Google Speech-to-Text API Automatic Transcription (Chirp). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:11of
00:00:17of Hello and welcome, this
00:00:21is hardcopy on channel's television, the program that brings you
00:00:25frank conversations with the people in the news. I am Bukola
00:00:28Coka, standing in for your regular anchor, kyla
00:00:32mgwa. last week we brought to you a special independence
00:00:36interview edition with pro-democracy
00:00:39activist drawing our
00:00:42conversation from renewed calls for national
00:00:45conversation among Nigeria's constituent ethnic
00:00:49nationalities. the lawyer and octogenarian
00:00:53argued vehemently that the military should also take
00:00:56responsibility for Nigeria's defective 99. 99
00:01:00constitution, which according to him, is the bin
00:01:05of of the country's underdevelopment. He points specifically to the centralized system
00:01:09of the army, which, according to him, continues to ruin
00:01:12us. expressed little hopes
00:01:16in the national assembly's ongoing constitution
00:01:20review exercise, saying that the
00:01:23of parliament cannot work against the same constitution that it swore
00:01:27to protect. recall also that The lawyer
00:01:30appeared to deflect on leads to assessing the current
00:01:3410th assembly,
00:01:36of describing my poser on public criticisms
00:01:39of the current parliament as subjective, but part
00:01:43two of my interview with him is where the conversation gets even
00:01:46tougher. Based on his middle ground position on the
00:01:50national assembly's ongoing
00:01:53of constitution review, I recall the APC's L-Rafai
00:01:57of led Constitutional Reforms Committee. a subject that
00:02:01of it campaigned on in 2015. I
00:02:03asked why he thinks the current APC
00:02:07government appears to have forgotten totally about its
00:02:11promise of restructuring. I also found space
00:02:14amid the interview to ask him to clarify
00:02:18of what many may consider one
00:02:19of the unresolved issues around the June 12,
00:02:231993 presidential elections. Here's how he
00:02:27answers in part two.
00:02:35of of
00:02:40The framework
00:02:42of of the 1996 constitution does not, they what they're doing will be rebelling against what
00:02:46we saw and
00:02:49oath so they sought an oath to take over membership
00:02:53after they were so
00:02:54in call elected and they saw oath of alligance to the so-called
00:02:57of 199 constitution you see the
00:02:59of aberation. so they can't do anything now to to confront that, but there's a
00:03:03constitution amendment process that has begone already by the way,
00:03:06of which also uh supports, this
00:03:10agitation, if you listen to the zonal hearings of few months
00:03:14of ago, some uh southeasterners and asking for
00:03:18states to be created in the southeast as well,
00:03:22so it it also supports the point that has been made
00:03:26time and again that this 1999 constitution is the greatest misses.
00:03:30that Nigeria ever embarked upon since 1914,
00:03:34so it's not true, that again is not true, it's not true, it's the
00:03:38same thing that happened to the 1979 constitution, it's the same thing that happened to the
00:03:41199
00:03:42of constitution, as if you want to if you care to know is
00:03:45the same thing,
00:03:46of you see we had about
00:03:48of four five uh after the when
00:03:52the the army struck in 1966 the first
00:03:55time they spent 13 years
00:03:57and they handed over
00:04:01government to
00:04:02of civilians in 1979 and that was the first time they said they were doing
00:04:08of constitution because the army and
00:04:11in picked significant members
00:04:14of the body that produce the drafts
00:04:18and when they submitted it to aubanj
00:04:20of government government inserted quite a
00:04:23number or things never
00:04:25discussed into that
00:04:29that thing
00:04:29they eventually
00:04:291979 constitution
00:04:33particularly line use act inside it without
00:04:36any references any anybody people and you
00:04:40what
00:04:40that thing that cost? it
00:04:44of lable the military oligarch to be able to acquire landed
00:04:48property all over
00:04:50the the country at no expense and then the civilians took over from
00:04:53them have been benefited from it so that the kind of thing that happened so it was not
00:04:57an all inc.
00:05:03that is why we say that so the military should also take
00:05:06responsibility for it the
00:05:11of greatest uh
00:05:15the greatest assaulters of
00:05:18our existence, since they took over
00:05:21power
00:05:23and suspended and
00:05:26abrogated that negotiated federal constitution,
00:05:30what he did was to say the articles of incorporation,
00:05:34the the articles of our existence negotiated by by
00:05:37leaders w suspended ordinarily, everybody to go
00:05:41back to his different. areas the fact that that didn't
00:05:44happen does not make it right, the fact that the they keep the
00:05:48kept on and when we were trying to find out of
00:05:51it, four years thereafter they knock their doors
00:05:55again and coral everybody into prison and said
00:05:59everybody was discredited, discredited by who, by
00:06:02buari, who was
00:06:05he? look, i have been asking the
00:06:08question, is
00:06:10there any profession in
00:06:11the in the world? that not enjoying
00:06:15people to learn to practice in
00:06:19before because they become experts, can the military ask
00:06:22a carpenter to go and drive an arm
00:06:26car? i've never done that
00:06:30as it occur that you as tail to go and do
00:06:34surgery upon human soul every
00:06:38profession is training, tutage,
00:06:41appretisship. and train and before you matured, but
00:06:45the Nigeria Army for their own
00:06:49greed even gotten
00:06:51against was always in the habit of
00:06:55making announcement discredited politicians and then they took
00:06:59over and they made mess us up, subverted our nation
00:07:02existence, stanted our growth and development, and this is where we are,
00:07:06they passed Nigeria among themselves and this we have not been able to get out
00:07:10of it, you know my sympathy.
00:07:16with the man who is on the
00:07:17throne
00:07:22now, is that as much as he would like to do certain things,
00:07:26critical
00:07:29steps, is perifically curtailed because
00:07:33of what he had come to meet in the
00:07:35office, for
00:07:38example, how do
00:07:40you or?
00:07:43understand the current security
00:07:47architecture when i try to
00:07:50ask, i was shocked to find
00:07:54out again through the
00:07:58government since 19
00:08:0060 3 64 those have been
00:08:04at the command post a security and
00:08:07intelligence unit, it
00:08:10was as... fted upon us by the british colonial
00:08:14masters favoring a particular session of nigeria
00:08:18and those are people those people are being in control
00:08:21totally can do
00:08:25as much as he could but
00:08:27the circumstance the moment if you want to remain office
00:08:30he has to be wise upstairs
00:08:34and that in spite of all
00:08:36that is is
00:08:39going try or people want "who are
00:08:43going
00:08:44to stay a coup against him? that
00:08:46caled whatever he has wanted to do, the
00:08:50same thing that happens to security and intelligence happens to the to the
00:08:54level the of economy, you can abuse him, you can
00:08:58say it's not performing, but i say to you straight
00:09:01forward, you cannot
00:09:04erase the
00:09:07sumting
00:09:08negative -
00:09:12economic socio economic policies the last 40
00:09:16something years within the years, you asking him to do
00:09:20magic, he's not a magician, we'll get to the matter of his
00:09:23performance uh a moment, but the summary of what you're saying if I'm getting
00:09:27you is that um the
00:09:30constitution review that has gone on in the last couple of months
00:09:34until this time is waste of time, it is
00:09:38they cannot go go to the south is that are seeking six states.
00:09:43nation seeking nation, the people seeking state, those
00:09:47seeking an ibadon state can go and set aside their dreams.
00:09:51do not, do not, do not believe
00:09:52that
00:09:56anything can happen to the to the to the
00:09:59request, come to think of it, not under this
00:10:03national assembly, no, not not,
00:10:05not is under
00:10:06the this current constitution is the thing, it's not the national
00:10:10assembly itself, i'm talking to you to the... realize that the constitution with the
00:10:13saw to does not permit for what they are doing, but the the
00:10:17APC government in 2014 campaign on the promise
00:10:21of restructuring, which is at the heart the matter and in fact, in
00:10:252018 appointed the former governor of uh
00:10:29kaduna state Nasir Urfai to lead a committee to emback
00:10:33on restructuring uh of the
00:10:36country and we know what happened to that document
00:10:39uh fears of you know what would
00:10:42happen from different groups who were agitating against it
00:10:46at the time according to the former governor led the APC
00:10:49government to set it aside now let's assume that that was
00:10:53under the former administration. this current
00:10:57government which sold a former president late mohammed
00:11:01sold to nigerians has not said a word
00:11:04about committing to restructuring unless i have missed it
00:11:08so what happened my my
00:11:12understanding i may be
00:11:15wrong but my
00:11:17understanding that
00:11:21this first time had been used.
00:11:25to build up few
00:11:29critical apparatus that can
00:11:32aid
00:11:36the
00:11:42desire to look
00:11:45into
00:11:49the national organic structure at
00:11:53some other time. for example,
00:11:56what i mean is
00:11:57this
00:12:01president like all others sw on
00:12:05oath sw on of
00:12:09allegiance to this decree
00:12:12called constitution, he cannot appropriate and
00:12:16reputate under it, he cannot
00:12:20do anything spoken like a true lawyer, of
00:12:23course that the matter. and associate the
00:12:26president, whether you, you see, I cannot
00:12:29deny my my relationship with the president, I cannot
00:12:33deny that, and I to
00:12:36tomorrow
00:12:37I have my highest regard and respect for him, the fact that has
00:12:41taken of this the challenge, I must say
00:12:45again and again, this is the first person was not
00:12:48sponsored by military kaba
00:12:52or civilian cabal to the presidency. God brought him into
00:12:56office because in spite the fact that he spent his
00:12:59fortune, he spent his connection, he spent his reputation to
00:13:03bring the APC government into place when it was
00:13:07wanting to run, the
00:13:11system he created,
00:13:13he help creat was against him
00:13:16totally, the president he
00:13:19wanted, was angry for
00:13:22Lawan who was the president the senate.
00:13:26totally opposed to b and everything was done
00:13:30to surv his emergence,
00:13:33so nobody can come to us and tell us that he put
00:13:37b in office. let's get to the civic space
00:13:41um and try to explore it as much as we can now,
00:13:45and this is important because of your experience,
00:13:48robust one at
00:13:54years. after Nigeria's democracy, the
00:13:58democracy as is currently constituted continues to
00:14:01exclude young people, and this
00:14:05administration is not removed from it, the last administration certainly is
00:14:09not removed from it. I recall the hashtag
00:14:12#sars protest the year 2020 under the former government, even
00:14:16the hashtag #bad governance protest under
00:14:20this current administration from about two years ago, we recall the
00:14:24treatment. of protesters, what are your thoughts on the
00:14:28continuous exclusion of young people
00:14:31and the lack the healthy civic space that
00:14:35we seem to have?
00:14:39i do not want to engage in
00:14:42subjective response because the
00:14:45following:
00:14:49if it is president that i know and
00:14:53look at. the configuration of his ministerial
00:14:57appointment, another key appointment that
00:15:01has made, i believe that the significant majority of those
00:15:04appointment have been to the youth, quite a
00:15:08significant number them have been to the youth, i've been for the
00:15:11youth, do not believe that is
00:15:14the type that we screwed the youth taking their
00:15:17chances, i pleed with
00:15:20them to be
00:15:23unrelenting, you don't get
00:15:27to squeeze
00:15:30orange yeah easily the ones in
00:15:33power will never easily uh
00:15:37grant you the grace
00:15:41of being able to pass
00:15:45them into doing what they don't want to do, but with your
00:15:48persistance, Nigeria like other
00:15:51places are now part the
00:15:54global setting, any small thing that anybody
00:15:58does now uh against this young people will
00:16:02become viral and to have negative impact on the
00:16:06people in government. "the people in government must must alway be conscious of
00:16:10that. i believe that the circumstances we
00:16:13find ourselves, the young people, they need to
00:16:17have some
00:16:20understanding, rary with
00:16:24some more matured
00:16:28people who have gone through this terrain before. for
00:16:31example, i was not
00:16:35happy that..."
00:16:39um some people try to utilize the advantage the
00:16:43youth for their own political
00:16:46benefit in this bad governance
00:16:50kind of a thing that they are talking about the leadership of
00:16:54that organization was a
00:16:57presidential candidate so we had
00:17:01a personal reason for
00:17:04leading the young people. into confrontation with the
00:17:08system, where you have that kind of
00:17:11setting, you cannot expect the government the day in
00:17:14power to sleep and not take
00:17:18action.
00:17:25we all see the world differently, but our time
00:17:28zones, politics, diplomacy,
00:17:32and sometimes conflict all converge in one
00:17:35place on the world today. "the world
00:17:39today brings you those headlines from around the world with
00:17:42in-depth discussions that help you understand the world
00:17:46we live in. don't be in the dark. catch us weekdays
00:17:50at 5:30 p.m. only on channels
00:17:53television.
00:18:01welcome back, it's hard copy on channels television and we're
00:18:05reviewing the progress and is of our
00:18:08nation as relates to subjects of
00:18:12restructuring and other related topics.
00:18:15my guest is ayokun, secretary
00:18:19general the national democratic
00:18:30your argument that this administration is friendly because of appointments
00:18:34of young persons into that's one part of it. that's
00:18:38that's one cabinet but but that's convenient, they could
00:18:42have appointed uh patrons the government, food soldiers will help
00:18:46them win election, we're talking about a broader
00:18:49inclusion of young persons, and to that I say, I ask
00:18:53sir, is this administration tolerant of
00:18:56descent by the pattern of treatment of
00:18:59young persons during protest against what they consider to
00:19:03be bad governance? are you asking now to speak for the government? I won't.
00:19:08"I won't, I won't speak for the government, the government should be able to respond to
00:19:12that. I'm asking you to respond to that, I'm sure you have young persons as
00:19:16grandchildren, so you should be concerned as well, I'm concerned
00:19:19that
00:19:23most young people when they come to me and
00:19:27I talk to them, I've been campaigning for more than 10 years now
00:19:31that we are leaving the stage for them, it is their own
00:19:34responsibility now uh to come. to accept themselves
00:19:38and win for themselves
00:19:41capacity in the
00:19:43political scheme. what
00:19:46i must i mean put before the
00:19:50audience is this:
00:19:53activism, either political, civil rights and the
00:19:57les are not for pleasure lovers and
00:20:01seekers, you must understand
00:20:04that activism carries along with
00:20:07with it some questions
00:20:11of
00:20:14use of government coassive
00:20:18agency to prevent you from being
00:20:21able to run the system against the people in
00:20:25power but what i find is that most of our young people
00:20:29they start saying ah we cannot go
00:20:33ahead and put -
00:20:36allow to use our head to break the coconut,
00:20:40yeah, if you if you get leaders, we will
00:20:44follow them, they cannot lead, who will now
00:20:48lead? and i when i when i
00:20:51return from 24 calendar months the
00:20:55jail of abacha and people are coming
00:20:59to us,
00:21:01ah leader, let's
00:21:05have something for us to be able to go and fight the battle
00:21:08yeah,
00:21:12when they went to senator abraham also and it
00:21:15was the old man was converting with me and i said to him you must understand who
00:21:19you are. you are leading the Europa race, not any other
00:21:23group, yeah, it can happen
00:21:27before that ethnic nationalities that when they
00:21:30say either zobun zobu or they
00:21:33say
00:21:39um, you have a large number of people to follow them
00:21:43eurobland, if e leader no matter how
00:21:46popular he is ask people. to come
00:21:50out today
00:21:51to to go and demonstrate and he has about 5,000 along with him,
00:21:54if the police uh shoot that one or
00:21:57two tomorrow, maybe we have about
00:22:002,500 that you follow him, if you ask
00:22:04them again to come out, the th time they ask him, why is his own
00:22:08child among us, that's
00:22:12the nature the thing, so that say
00:22:15activism is not for pleasure
00:22:19lovers. and phone seekers, we have had endure
00:22:23a lot of pain, so you would rather they don't endure the kind of
00:22:26incarceration that you end, let them, they want to win them, if they want to
00:22:30win themselves, win for themselves, liberty, then they should be
00:22:34base
00:22:44has to do with the tolerance of this government
00:22:49for you, I'm not
00:22:54you to take us down memory lane now, and there's a question I've always
00:22:57wanted to ask you sir, and it has to do with June 12,
00:23:01okay, and um, there there has been some
00:23:04unresolved issues or if you like, question
00:23:08mark hanging around what would have been a release
00:23:11of
00:23:13uh uh, and some have
00:23:17said, I've quoted, major general Ishay
00:23:21Abami, Anthony Adefu, saying that some
00:23:25persons of Nadeko betrayed Abiola that they prioritized
00:23:28transitional uh, you
00:23:31know, transitional arrangements
00:23:35over the unconditional release of
00:23:38Bashorem, help us with some
00:23:42clarity, what exactly happened, who were those that betrayed Abiola,
00:23:46if indeed there was a betrayal, there was no betray that as far as I know,
00:23:50and the people, the two people you
00:23:51mentioned,
00:23:54are
00:23:58very
00:24:00-
00:24:06they are preposterous
00:24:08characters,
00:24:12very unsuitable to make
00:24:15such categorical statements which was
00:24:19unfounded.
00:24:26making a lot of money out of us when we were fighting the
00:24:30battle he was total he
00:24:32was very very close confident
00:24:36the
00:24:36nadia and
00:24:40that was why he was derobbed in
00:24:42house after b was
00:24:45killed he was turned to turn
00:24:49naked.
00:24:53because they knew that he was in with the
00:24:57military oligarchy all the time as he was taking from the
00:25:00central was taken
00:25:01from
00:25:06wanted to overthrow
00:25:08jsani he wants
00:25:12to to be head of state too so they are not in opposition to be making
00:25:16this -
00:25:20verificable statements, what i
00:25:24knew, which really asked this, the
00:25:28central orbit of nadeko was
00:25:32this,
00:25:36there were
00:25:38efforts to give
00:25:41conditions, some conditions which
00:25:45was regarded by number of
00:25:49political. and our lawyers to be
00:25:52unbefitting for
00:25:54ab release and when
00:25:58the thing was taken to
00:26:00said he could not surrender his...
00:26:02mandate to the military
00:26:06government while he was in detention, they wanted
00:26:10him to
00:26:11be able to take a decision, he should be
00:26:13released, then consulting with
00:26:17his own
00:26:20colleagues
00:26:26take a decision, so it was not because any of
00:26:29us or anybody in the harchy of...
00:26:34paritize so call transition kind of
00:26:37nonsense
00:26:39we didn't look that kind of transition thing that
00:26:41organized was the most dubious one very
00:26:45very very godly and you know what he
00:26:49did shka
00:26:51was really not going to
00:26:55have that kind of a chance i just say to
00:26:59people again that wanted it
00:27:08he may not be able to
00:27:10well that control again eventually give it to a man
00:27:14was a chairman of a
00:27:17multinational organization called aaneka and we
00:27:21kept saying you can only be
00:27:25head of state of nigeria on two
00:27:28conditions either you won an election or stay
00:27:32a coup to get there, neither of
00:27:36this did you follow, so you are not an
00:27:39elected, you are not not
00:27:43illegal head of state, stop going to councel of state
00:27:46meeting, he never
00:27:50listened, so did
00:27:52the long and short of that, as I said to you, is that so he wanted a piece
00:27:56the pie as well, that's all, that's all, so there was there was no betrayal,
00:28:00no betray, you didn't betray No,
00:28:03no, we were the one suffer the
00:28:06bloods. is
00:28:10the convener of coalition of democratic reforms,
00:28:14secretary general, former secretary general of afry,
00:28:18and not forgetting the general secretary the national democratic
00:28:30of use him all you want, but
00:28:34you cannot erase the summer salting socio-economic
00:28:37policies the last 40 something years within the
00:28:41years. Is it a statement of support from a long time political
00:28:45associate or foot for thought for all stakeholders in the
00:28:49Nigerian project? You decide as you continue the
00:28:53conversation online. Join me again same time next
00:28:57week when I bring you another interesting edition the
00:29:00program, hardcopy. Thank you for watching, I am
00:29:04Bukola Coga, bye for
00:29:06now.
00:30:16the