Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:01ANALYSTS NOW LOOKING AT IT, AND I THINK PROBABLY WANT SOME
00:00:04PUBLIC KIND OF CONSIDERATION OR
00:00:05OVERSIGHT, BECAUSE AI, AS IT
00:00:08BECOMES INTEGRAL TO THE
00:00:10MILITARY, WILL BECOME IMPORTANT IN DIFFERENT RESPECTS, IN COMMAND AND CONTROL OF NUCLEAR
00:00:14WEAPONS. AND WE WANT TO RAISE THOSE QUESTIONS AND UNDERSTAND IT PROBABLY EARLIER RATHER THAN
00:00:18LATER. >> ABSOLUTELY. SO GREAT
00:00:21QUESTIONS. THANK YOU ALL >> YOU MISSED YOUR FAVORITE
00:00:24NONFICTION AUTHOR, YOU CAN FIND ALL OF OUR PROGRAMING
00:00:28ONLINE@BOOKTV.ORG. JUST USE THE SEARCH BAR AT THE TOP OF THE
00:00:32PAGE >> HELLO, EVERYBODY. WELCOME TO
00:00:36THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE. I'M YUVAL LEVIN, I'M
00:00:38A FELLOW HERE AT AI, AND IT'S MY VERY GREAT PLEASURE TO
00:00:42WELCOME YOU TO A CONVERSATION WITH UTAH GOVERNOR SPENCER COX,
00:00:46AUTHOR OF THE IMPORTANT NEW BOOK, OFFRAMP HOW TO BE A
00:00:48PEACEMAKER IN AN AGE OF CONTEMPT. WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT
00:00:52BOOK. WE'LL TALK ABOUT THE CHALLENGES TO PEACEMAKING. WE'LL
00:00:55TALK ABOUT THE CHALLENGES OF
00:00:57GOVERNING. IT'S ALWAYS ESPECIALLY ENJOYABLE TO TALK TO
00:01:01GOVERNORS ABOUT THESE KINDS OF QUESTIONS NOW, BECAUSE GOVERNORS
00:01:05REALLY ARE AN EXCEPTION IN THIS MOMENT. NOT ALL GOVERNORS. AND
00:01:09MAYBE YOU'RE BEGINNING TO THINK
00:01:09OF EXCEPTIONS BUT GENERALLY,
00:01:13GOVERNORS IN AMERICA, IN, IN, IN
00:01:17THIS PECULIAR POLITICAL TIME ARE
00:01:20PRACTICAL PEOPLE, LEVEL HEADED,
00:01:22SANE, EXERCISING REAL POWER AND
00:01:24SERIOUS WAYS. AND EVEN AMONG
00:01:26THEM, I WOULD SAY THAT SPENCER COX REALLY STANDS OUT AS A
00:01:30PERSON WHO NOT ONLY DOES THAT, BUT ALSO THINKS ABOUT HOW TO DO
00:01:34THAT, HOW TO BE AN EXECUTIVE NOW, HOW TO BE A LEADER, HOW TO
00:01:37BE A PUBLIC OFFICIAL, EVEN, HOW
00:01:38TO BE A POLITICIAN IN A WAY THAT
00:01:43REFLECTS WELL ON HIS RESPONSIBLE
00:01:46APPROACH TO THE JOB HE'S TAKEN. HE'S A POLITICIAN. HE HAS
00:01:49STRONG VIEWS. HE HAS A PARTY. HE DOESN'T PRETEND TO BE ABOVE THE
00:01:53FRAY, BUT I THINK HE TRIES TO BE IN THE FRAY AS AN ADULT. AND
00:01:56THIS BOOK IS, IN SOME RESPECTS,
00:01:58REALLY A ROADMAP FOR HOW THAT
00:02:02COULD BE DONE. UM, A FEW WORDS ABOUT HIM. SPENCER COX IS THE 18th GOVERNOR OF UTAH. HE'S HAD
00:02:05THAT JOB SINCE 2021. HE WAS
00:02:09LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR BEFORE THAT FOR EIGHT YEARS. PRIOR TO THAT,
00:02:12WAS A STATE LEGISLATOR IN UTAH, A COUNTY COMMISSIONER, A MAYOR, A CITY COUNCILMAN. YOU MIGHT SAY
00:02:16HE'S A POLITICIAN IN A GOOD
00:02:19WAY, IN A GOOD WAY. HE'S BEEN IN
00:02:23ELECTIVE OFFICE SINCE 2004, WHICH IS NOT ONLY A LONG TIME,
00:02:26BUT IT'S BEEN A PECULIAR TIME TO BE A POLITICIAN IN AMERICA,
00:02:30AND NOT ALWAYS IN A GOOD WAY. IT'S BEEN A TIME IN WHICH WE'VE
00:02:33SEEN OUR POLITICAL CULTURE, AT LEAST ON THE NATIONAL LEVEL,
00:02:37GRADUALLY TRANSFORMED IN THE DIRECTION OF A KIND OF
00:02:41PERFORMATIVE PARTIZAN CIRCUS. BUT GOVERNOR COX IN GENERAL, AND
00:02:43IN THIS BOOK, SUGGESTS THAT IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY HAVE TO BE
00:02:46THAT WAY. WE'LL HEAR A LITTLE
00:02:48BIT ABOUT HOW THAT MIGHT WORK. GOVERNOR COX, WELCOME. THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
00:02:52>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME. AND THANKS FOR THE KIND WORDS, YUVAL. IT'S GREAT TO BE WITH
00:02:54YOU.
00:02:57>> UM, A POLITICIAN WRITING A BOOK NATURALLY RAISES SUSPICIONS. >> IT DOES.
00:03:01>> YES. AND SUSPICIONS FROM ALL
00:03:04DIRECTIONS. BUT HELP US TO ASSUAGE THOSE BY JUST TELLING US
00:03:08AT THE OUTSET HERE, WHAT IS THIS BOOK ABOUT, AND WHY NOW?
00:03:12>> YEAH. WELL, UM, THE, I WANTED
00:03:15TO REALLY ASSUAGE THOSE VIEWS EARLY. AND SO THE VERY FIRST
00:03:18LINE IN THE BOOK IS, I AM NOT RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT. AND I WANT TO MAKE THAT VERY CLEAR.
00:03:22AND I INCLUDED THAT FOR A COUPLE
00:03:24REASONS. BUT FIRST AND FOREMOST
00:03:27IS IF I'M IF I'M JUST DOING
00:03:29THIS. UH, WE LIVE IN SUCH A CYNICAL SOCIETY TODAY, AND MAYBE
00:03:32FOR GOOD REASON, ALTHOUGH I HATE CYNICISM. AND I TALK ABOUT THAT
00:03:35A BIT IN THE BOOK, BUT THE IF
00:03:38I'M, IF I WAS WRITING THIS TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT, THEN YOU
00:03:41SHOULDN'T READ IT. IT WOULD
00:03:44MEAN THAT IT'S LESS THAN SINCERE. THE PURPOSE OF THIS
00:03:48BOOK IS I, YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN WORRIED ABOUT POLARIZATION FOR A
00:03:51LONG TIME. I ACTUALLY STARTED WRITING. I WROTE MY FIRST
00:03:54ARTICLE ABOUT POLARIZATION AS LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR IN 2014,
00:03:57WHEN I THOUGHT IT COULDN'T GET ANY WORSE. UM, IT DID. IT GOT SO
00:04:01MUCH WORSE, YOU GUYS. AND, UH, AND THAT CONCERNED ME WHEN I,
00:04:04WHEN I BECAME CHAIR OF THE NATIONAL GOVERNORS ASSOCIATION.
00:04:08THE INITIATIVE WAS AROUND DEPOLARIZATION FOR THE REASONS
00:04:10THAT YOU MENTIONED. I FELT THAT GOVERNORS WERE STILL, AS FRANK
00:04:13LUNTZ SAID, THE ADULTS IN THE ROOM. WHEN IT COMES TO POLITICS, AT LEAST MOST OF THEM. THERE ARE
00:04:17A COUPLE AT THE KIDS TABLE, BUT MOST, MOST GOVERNORS ARE TRYING
00:04:21TO GOVERN, AND YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO GET STUFF DONE. UNLIKE
00:04:24CONGRESS RIGHT NOW. AND AND THEY'RE SERIOUS ABOUT IT. AND
00:04:27SO I FELT THAT WAS A FORUM WHERE
00:04:30WE COULD ACTUALLY MODEL MAYBE BETTER BEHAVIOR AND, AND WORK ON
00:04:34SOME BIG ISSUES TOGETHER, BUT WE COULDN'T SOLVE ANY ISSUES
00:04:37TOGETHER AS AMERICANS. IF WE, IF
00:04:38WE ALL HATE EACH OTHER. AND THEN
00:04:42I STARTED TALKING TO RESEARCHERS, UH, READING THE,
00:04:45THE SOCIAL SCIENCE, INCLUDING MUCH OF WHAT YOU'VE WRITTEN
00:04:48AND, AND STARTED TO GET DEEPLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE RISE IN
00:04:51POLITICAL VIOLENCE IN OUR, IN
00:04:55OUR COUNTRY. UH, WE'VE SEEN A TENFOLD INCREASE IN THREATS OF VIOLENCE TOWARD MEMBERS OF
00:04:58CONGRESS IN THE PAST TEN YEARS. NOT A. I ALWAYS SAY THAT. AND PEOPLE ARE LIKE, OH, YEAH, 10%
00:05:02INCREASE. I'M LIKE, NO, IT'S
00:05:05TEN TIMES INCREASE. AND, UH, AND SO, AND SO I STARTED WRITING
00:05:09THIS BOOK THREE YEARS AGO. AND,
00:05:12AND THEN A YEAR AGO, ALL OF THE THEORETICAL BECAME VERY REAL.
00:05:16WHEN, WHEN CHARLIE KIRK WAS
00:05:18ASSASSINATED IN MY STATE, THE, THE LAST PLACE IN AMERICA THAT I
00:05:21THOUGHT THAT COULD HAPPEN. AND IT HAPPENED THERE. AND THAT'S
00:05:25WHEN I FELT COMPELLED THAT I, I
00:05:28JUST NEEDED TO FINISH AND, AND HOPE THAT, THAT I COULD SHARE
00:05:31THAT MESSAGE WITH PEOPLE. >> THAT THAT DAY, THE, THE
00:05:35BRUTAL MURDER OF CHARLIE KIRK IS KIND OF WHERE THE BOOK BEGINS.
00:05:38TELL US ABOUT THAT DAY FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW.
00:05:41>> YEAH. UH, YOU KNOW, DAY, MUCH LIKE TODAY, A BEAUTIFUL
00:05:44SEPTEMBER DAY IN UTAH. WE'RE
00:05:45GOING ABOUT OUR BUSINESS. I KNEW
00:05:49CHARLIE WAS COMING, AND HE WAS ACTUALLY GOING TO GIVE TWO SPEECHES. HE WAS GIVING ONE AT
00:05:51UTAH VALLEY UNIVERSITY. AND THEN A WEEK LATER, HE WAS GIVING ONE
00:05:54AT UTAH STATE UNIVERSITY, WHICH IS MY ALMA MATER. AND I WAS MORE
00:05:58FOCUSED ON THE UTAH STATE ONE AND KNEW ONE. THAT ONE WAS. I
00:06:01KIND OF FORGOTTEN ABOUT THE UVU SPEECH, SO I HADN'T EVEN PROCESSED THAT HE WAS IN THE
00:06:05STATE THAT DAY. WHEN, WHEN MY,
00:06:08UH, MY ASSISTANT CAME INTO THE ROOM WITH A LOOK ON HER FACE
00:06:11THAT I'D NEVER SEEN BEFORE. UM,
00:06:14AND WE TRY TO PREPARE FOR THIS STUFF AT, AT NEW GOVERNOR SCHOOL
00:06:17WITH THE SGA OR BABY GOVERNOR SCHOOL, AS WE CALL IT. WE ALWAYS
00:06:21TALK ABOUT THE MINUTE YOU'RE SWORN IN. UM, THERE'S SOMETHING
00:06:25WILL HAPPEN IN THE TIME YOU'RE SERVING THAT YOU'RE NOT
00:06:27PREPARED FOR, THAT YOU DIDN'T EXPECT THAT. UM, AND THAT MOMENT
00:06:31WILL COME AND YOU HAVE TO TRY TO BE READY FOR IT. AND I KNEW JUST
00:06:33FROM HER FACE THAT THIS WAS THAT MOMENT THAT SOMETHING TERRIBLE
00:06:37HAD HAPPENED. UH, I WALKED OUT A
00:06:39MEMBER OF OUR STATE TROOPER,
00:06:42POLICE WERE THERE AND, AND TOLD
00:06:44ME THAT THERE HAD BEEN A SHOOTING ON CAMPUS AND THAT
00:06:47CHARLIE KIRK HAD BEEN SHOT. AND
00:06:49I REALLY STRUGGLED TO PROCESS
00:06:51THAT, LIKE, WAIT, WHAT IS. IS HE
00:06:54OKAY? YOU KNOW, ANYBODY ELSE? IN
00:06:58FACT, I WAS TOLD TWO PEOPLE HAD BEEN SHOT. THAT WAS MISINFORMATION AT FIRST. AND,
00:07:01UM, AND AS WE'RE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION, I SAID, ARE YOU
00:07:05SURE? ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY SURE? BECAUSE IN THE KIND OF FOG OF
00:07:08WAR, YOU GET A LOT OF BAD INFORMATION. AND SOMEBODY HANDED
00:07:11ME THEIR PHONE, AND THE VIDEO HAD ALREADY STARTED TO GO VIRAL,
00:07:14THAT YOU ALL SAW. AND I WISHED I
00:07:18COULD UNSEE. AND, UH, AND THEN
00:07:2030s LATER, THEY WALKED IN WITH ANOTHER PHONE, AND THEY SAID,
00:07:23IT'S THE WHITE HOUSE. UH, SECRETARY RUBIO'S ON THE PHONE. HE'S IN THE SITUATION ROOM. HE
00:07:27WAS AT THE WHITE HOUSE WHEN THIS HAPPENED. WANTS TO KNOW, YOU
00:07:30KNOW, DO WE HAVE SOMEBODY IN CUSTODY? HOW'S CHARLIE? WHAT'S,
00:07:34YOU KNOW, AND AND I'M. I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING YET. RIGHT. AND SO WE'RE TRYING TO
00:07:38MANAGE UP AND DOWN. AND IT WAS,
00:07:39IT WAS VERY CHAOTIC DAY, A VERY
00:07:43OBVIOUSLY, I MEAN, THE WORST DAY THAT I'VE HAD AS AS GOVERNOR
00:07:48AND, UM, AND, AND THEN THERE'S
00:07:50ALL THE QUESTIONS, YOU KNOW, IS, COULD THIS HAPPEN AGAIN? WAS
00:07:54THERE MORE THAN ONE PERSON? WHAT
00:07:56DO WE KNOW? AND, UH, AND, AND
00:07:59THEN WHAT DO WE TELL PEOPLE?
00:08:01BECAUSE VERY QUICKLY, IF THERE'S A VACUUM OF INFORMATION,
00:08:05THAT VACUUM GETS FILLED WITH BAD
00:08:07INFORMATION. AND WE COULD SEE THAT BAD INFORMATION ESCALATING,
00:08:10AND WE KNEW WE NEEDED TO SAY
00:08:11SOMETHING. AND, AND, AND SO WE, WE FINALLY DECIDED TO CALL A
00:08:15PRESS CONFERENCE. AS I'M, AS I'M DRIVING THERE, I GET A CALL
00:08:19FROM, FROM A FELLOW GOVERNOR, UM, JOSH SHAPIRO, A DEMOCRAT,
00:08:23PENNSYLVANIA, WHO WAS THE GOVERNOR WHEN THERE WAS AN
00:08:27ATTEMPTED ASSASSINATION ON THEN FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LIFE IN
00:08:30BUTLER, PENNSYLVANIA. AND SO HE WAS THE ONE PERSON WHO COULD
00:08:34MAYBE EMPATHIZE A LITTLE BIT WITH WHAT I WAS GOING THROUGH AT
00:08:36THAT TIME. AND, UH, HE, HE SAID,
00:08:39I SAID, JOSH, GIVE ME SOME ADVICE. HE SAID, I'LL GIVE YOU
00:08:43TWO PIECES OF ADVICE. HE SAID, YOU HAVE A BUNCH OF TALKING
00:08:46POINTS RIGHT NOW. UM, I WANT YOU
00:08:48TO TEAR THEM UP. WHATEVER YOUR
00:08:50STAFF TOLD YOU TO SAY, DON'T SAY
00:08:52THAT. UH, AND HE SAID, I WANT
00:08:56YOU TO, UH, I WANT YOU TO SPEAK
00:08:58WITH MORAL CLARITY. CALL IT WHAT
00:09:00IT IS. DON'T DANCE AROUND THINGS. AND AND HE SAID, AND
00:09:04SPEAK FROM THE HEART. HE SAID,
00:09:07WHATEVER. HE SAID, I KNOW YOU. I KNOW YOUR CHARACTER. WHATEVER
00:09:10COMES INTO YOUR HEART AND YOUR MIND WILL BE THE THING THAT YOU
00:09:13NEED TO SAY. AND, UH, AND I, I'M GRATEFUL TO HAVE FRIENDS
00:09:17LIKE THAT. AND I'M GRATEFUL THAT WE HAVE THAT AS GOVERNORS,
00:09:20WE CAN WORK WITH EACH OTHER ACROSS PARTY LINES. AND, AND I
00:09:22DID WHAT HE TOLD ME TO DO, AND I'M GRATEFUL THAT I TOOK HIS
00:09:26ADVICE. >> THAT THAT PRESS CONFERENCE IS
00:09:30WHERE THE TITLE OF THE BOOK COMES FROM. RIGHT. AT A CERTAIN
00:09:31POINT, YOU SAID, WE HAVE TO FIND
00:09:35AN OFF RAMP OFF THIS ROAD. WHY IS THAT THE METAPHOR? AND WHAT'S THE ROAD WE'RE ON?
00:09:39>> WELL, THE ROAD WE'RE ON IS,
00:09:41IS, IS A PRETTY DARK ONE. YOU'VE
00:09:43WRITTEN ABOUT IT. I HAVE TO SAY,
00:09:45I'M A LITTLE EMBARRASSED. THE, UH, TO BE ON THIS SIDE OF THE,
00:09:49THE INTERVIEW. MY, MY POOR
00:09:51PUBLISHER SAID, HEY, WE CAN'T HAVE 200 DUVALL QUOTES IN YOUR
00:09:55BOOK. YOU CAN ONLY HAVE LIKE, 25. SO, SO WE HAD TO CUT A LOT
00:09:58OF THEM OUT. SO YOU'RE GOING TO
00:10:00HEAR ME DOING LIKE THE TMU
00:10:03IMPRESSION OF UVALDE RIGHT NOW. UH, BUT YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY
00:10:06FOR. SO, UM, WE, UH, TOOK THE
00:10:10PATH THAT WE ARE ON, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT
00:10:13THIS. THE EXPERTS ARE PRETTY CLEAR. THERE'S, THERE'S A LEVEL
00:10:16OF AFFECTIVE POLARIZATION THAT'S HAPPENING IN OUR COUNTRY
00:10:19THAT IS INCREDIBLY, INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS. SO, UM, SO AFFECTIVE
00:10:23POLARIZATION IS, IS KIND OF HOW
00:10:25WE FEEL TOWARDS OUR, OUR, OUR
00:10:27FELLOW AMERICANS. UH, ARTHUR
00:10:30BROOKS HAS WRITTEN THAT, UH, THAT THE LEVEL OF, OF AFFECTIVE
00:10:34POLARIZATION, THAT, THAT FEELING
00:10:35OF, OF CONTEMPT OF HATE, OR EVEN
00:10:38WORSE, TOWARDS OUR, OUR, THE
00:10:41OPPOSING PARTY IS, IS SIMILAR TO, TO THE LEVELS OF
00:10:44POLARIZATION THAT HAVE BEEN MEASURED BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND
00:10:48PALESTINIANS. AND WE KNOW HOW THAT'S GOING, RIGHT. UH, AND,
00:10:52AND SO I, AND I NEED TO POINT OUT THAT THAT'S, THAT'S THE
00:10:55ACTUAL POLARIZATION. ISN'T THAT GREAT IF. AND THAT'S THE BIG
00:10:58PERCEPTION GAP THAT AMERICANS, IF YOU ASK A THOUSAND
00:11:02REPUBLICANS AND A THOUSAND DEMOCRATS WHAT THEY BELIEVE, WE'RE ONLY THIS FAR APART ON
00:11:06ALL OF THE MAJOR ISSUES. WE'RE ACTUALLY NOT THAT NOT THAT DIFFERENT FROM EACH OTHER. BUT
00:11:10IF YOU ASK REPUBLICANS WHAT THEY THINK, DEMOCRATS BELIEVE ON THE ISSUES AND ASK DEMOCRATS WHAT
00:11:14THEY THINK, REPUBLICANS BELIEVE ON THE ISSUES, WE'RE THIS FAR
00:11:16APART. AND IF YOU LOOK
00:11:19THROUGHOUT HISTORY, IN OTHER
00:11:22CULTURES, IN OTHER PLACES, AND
00:11:24EVEN HERE IN THE 1850s AND
00:11:261860s, WHEN, UH, WHEN THAT LEVEL
00:11:29OF AFFECTIVE POLARIZATION GETS
00:11:31REACHED, THE NATURAL RESOURCES RESULT OF THAT IS POLITICAL
00:11:34VIOLENCE. AND THAT'S THE ROAD I
00:11:36THINK WE'RE ON. AND AGAIN,
00:11:39WE'VE SEEN THIS HAPPENING. UH, THE THREATS I MENTIONED TO CONGRESS, THREATS TO THE
00:11:43JUDICIARY, AND NOT JUST IN THE NATIONAL LEVEL, BUT AT THE LOCAL
00:11:46LEVEL TO CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS
00:11:48AND SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS THAT
00:11:50ARE RECEIVING VIOLENT THREATS. THAT'S, THAT'S THE PATH WE'RE
00:11:54ON. THAT'S THE WHY I CHOSE THE
00:11:57METAPHOR. AND WE DESPERATELY NEED AN OFF RAMP. WE NEED TO
00:12:01FIND A WAY TO TO MOVE BEYOND THAT. THAT CYCLE OF RETRIBUTION
00:12:05THAT WE'RE FEELING RIGHT NOW, WHERE, WHERE WE CAN FIND A WAY
00:12:08TO ENGAGE AGAIN, WITH OUR, WITH OUR FELLOW AMERICANS IN WAYS
00:12:12THAT ACTUALLY SOLVE PROBLEMS. THAT'S WHAT AMERICAN THE
00:12:14AMERICAN PEOPLE WANT. UM, I'M
00:12:19VERY HOPEFUL. I DON'T USE THE WORD OPTIMISM ANYMORE BECAUSE
00:12:21YUVAL UH, AND I'M VERY HOPEFUL
00:12:24BECAUSE I'M 70% OF AMERICANS RIGHT NOW HATE WHAT'S HAPPENING
00:12:27IN POLITICS. THEY'RE HUNGRY FOR SOMETHING DIFFERENT. I THINK
00:12:30THERE IS A MARKET FAILURE IN BOTH PARTIES AND HUGELY MARKET
00:12:35FAILURES GET FILLED WITH ENTREPRENEURIAL POLITICIANS. AND
00:12:39WE'RE HOPEFUL THAT WILL HAPPEN. >> ONE OF THE STRIKING THINGS ABOUT HOW YOU TALK ABOUT THIS IN
00:12:42THE BOOK IS YOU KIND OF MOVE
00:12:44FROM AFFECTIVE POLARIZATION, THIS, THIS TERM, THAT'S A LITTLE
00:12:48HARD TO, TO, TO HANDLE. AND YOU
00:12:50FOCUS ON THE TERM CONTEMPT,
00:12:54CONTEMPT AS OPPOSED TO DISAGREEMENT. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY CONTEMPT? WHAT'S DISTINCT
00:12:57ABOUT IT? AND WHY IS THAT? THE
00:13:00TERM YOU USE TO UNDERSTAND OUR SITUATION.
00:13:02>> YEAH. SO THERE'S, UM, WE TEND
00:13:05TO THINK OF CONFLICT IN A
00:13:07NEGATIVE WAY. BUT, BUT CONFLICT IS NEUTRAL. THERE, THERE'S
00:13:10HEALTHY CONFLICT AND THERE'S UNHEALTHY CONFLICT. AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW, OF
00:13:14COURSE, IS AN EXTREME, EXTREMELY
00:13:17UNHEALTHY CONFLICT. BUT, BUT CONTEMPT IS THIS IDEA. NOT NOT
00:13:19THAT I DISAGREE WITH YOU, BUT I
00:13:23DESPISE YOU. UM, THAT YOU'RE
00:13:26BENEATH ME. YOU'RE EVIL. I
00:13:28REFUSE TO ENGAGE WITH YOU. AND I
00:13:30HAVE TO DESTROY YOU. AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING FROM FAR TOO
00:13:33MUCH OF OUR POLITICS TODAY. UH,
00:13:37I THINK INSTINCTIVELY, YOU KNOW, WHY THAT'S, UH, THAT'S NOT GREAT, BUT. BUT I REALLY DID
00:13:41WANT TO DISTINGUISH IT BETWEEN DISAGREEMENT, BECAUSE I MAKE THE
00:13:45CASE THAT IT'S, IT'S NOT, WE
00:13:49DON'T NEED LESS DISAGREEMENT. WE ACTUALLY NEED MORE DISAGREEMENT
00:13:52IN, IN THE RIGHT WAYS AND IN THE
00:13:55RIGHT INSTITUTIONS. AND, UH, AND
00:13:57AS, AS YOU SO ELOQUENTLY WRITE
00:14:00IN, UH, IN AMERICAN COVENANT
00:14:03THAT THE CONSTITUTION REQUIRES DISAGREEMENT. IT WAS MEANT FOR
00:14:07IT. IT'S, IT'S THE WAY BY
00:14:10WHICH WE ACT TOGETHER AS, AS A, AS A NATION. IT'S A WAY TO
00:14:14CHANNEL OUR DISAGREEMENT IN PRODUCTIVE WAYS THAT FORCES US
00:14:17TO, TO BUILD COALITIONS. AGAIN,
00:14:19THIS IS WHY CONGRESS IS SO IMPORTANT AND WAS ALWAYS MEANT TO BE THE MOST POWERFUL BRANCH
00:14:23OF GOVERNMENT, SOMETHING WE'VE GOTTEN WRONG RECENTLY AND DESPERATELY NEED TO FIX. BUT,
00:14:27BUT IN A PLURALISTIC COUNTRY LIKE OURS, IT'S THE ONLY WAY
00:14:31WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO
00:14:34SURVIVE AND, AND CONTINUE TO FUNCTION AS A COUNTRY. IF WE ARE
00:14:37ABLE TO COME TOGETHER AND HAVE
00:14:39MORE DEBATE, NOT LESS, UH, IF
00:14:41WE'RE ABLE TO, UH, TO, TO TEACH
00:14:45A NEW GENERATION HOW TO DEBATE, TURNS OUT THAT PEOPLE WHO LEARNED HOW TO DEBATE IN HIGH
00:14:49SCHOOL AND COLLEGE ARE FAR LESS POLARIZED THAN THE REST OF THE
00:14:53COUNTRY. UH, BY LEARNING THE
00:14:55OTHER PERSON'S AGREEMENT, YOU'RE
00:14:57BETTER WITH YOUR, UH, THEIR
00:15:01POSITION. YOU'RE MUCH BETTER WITH YOUR POSITION. UH, AND IN A DEBATE, BUT YOU ALSO LEARN THAT
00:15:05THE OTHER SIDE ISN'T EVIL OR CRAZY. THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT
00:15:08POINT OF VIEW, AND IT'S OFTEN
00:15:10RATIONAL. IT MAY BE WRONG, BUT, BUT, BUT, UH, IT'S, IT'S
00:15:14IMPORTANT THAT WE, WE FIGURE OUT, AGAIN, HOW TO ENGAGE THERE.
00:15:17AND THAT'S WHY I, TOO OFTEN
00:15:19WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CIVILITY, WE
00:15:22THINK ABOUT IT IN, IN KIND OF
00:15:25MILQUETOAST TERMS, WE ALL JUST WANT TO HOLD HANDS. IT'S
00:15:28KUMBAYA. WE ALL JUST NEED TO GET
00:15:30ALONG. AND I DO THINK WE SHOULD
00:15:33BE KINDER TO EACH OTHER, DON'T GET ME WRONG. BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT THIS IS ABOUT. UH, PEOPLE
00:15:37ARE ANGRY. UM, AND, AND IT'S
00:15:41IMPORTANT THAT WE HELP PEOPLE
00:15:43UNDERSTAND HOW TO CHANNEL THAT
00:15:45ANGER IN PRODUCTIVE WAYS THAT CAN ACTUALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE AND NOT TELL THEM, YOU KNOW, NOT
00:15:49TO BE UPSET OR THAT YOU NEED TO,
00:15:52UH, THAT YOU NEED TO GET RID OF
00:15:55OR COMPROMISE YOUR DEEPLY HELD PRINCIPLES. THAT'S, THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AT
00:15:58ALL. I WANT PEOPLE TO STAY TRUE TO THEIR DEEPLY HELD PRINCIPLES.
00:16:02I WOULD ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF INTELLECTUAL
00:16:05HUMILITY AND CHALLENGE THEIR, THEIR OWN POINT OF VIEW ON OCCASION. I THINK THAT THAT'S
00:16:09HEALTHY. UH, MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE TESTING OUR, AS A SCIENTIST WOULD KIND OF TESTING
00:16:13OUR OWN POSITIONS. UH, AND WHEN
00:16:15WE DO SO, IT MAKES OUR, OUR POSITIONS EVEN STRONGER. I THINK
00:16:19WHEN WE DO IT THE RIGHT WAY. BUT, BUT I'M JUST ASKING PEOPLE
00:16:22TO ENGAGE WITH DIGNITY AND RESPECT WITH THEIR OPPONENTS
00:16:25AND, AND NOT TO, NOT TO
00:16:28COMPLETELY WRITE OFF HALF OF OUR FELLOW AMERICANS. >> SO HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE
00:16:31SOURCES OF THAT ANGER? UM, WHAT
00:16:35IS IT THAT ANGRY AMERICANS ARE
00:16:38ANGRY ABOUT IN THIS MOMENT? >> WELL, THEY'RE I MEAN,
00:16:41THEY'RE ANGRY ABOUT LOTS OF THINGS. UM, THEY'RE, THEY'RE
00:16:44ANGRY ABOUT DATA CENTERS. UH, I THINK THAT'S, THAT'S ONE OF
00:16:47THE THINGS I'VE LEARNED FIRSTHAND THAT, THAT PEOPLE ARE
00:16:51ANGRY ABOUT. >> AND THAT SEEMS LIKE MAYBE A VERSION OF THE HEALTHIER KIND
00:16:54OF, OF DISAGREEMENT THAT YOU POINT TO. >> YOU'RE RIGHT.
00:16:57>> IF YOU'RE ANGRY ABOUT SOMETHING THAT'S ACTUALLY HAPPENING IN YOUR COMMUNITY, THAT YOU CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT,
00:17:01THAT YOU THINK CREATES A PROBLEM IN YOUR OWN LIFE. YOU HAVE
00:17:05SOMETHING LIKE A POLITICAL DEBATE ABOUT IT. IT SEEMS LIKE A
00:17:07LOT OF WHAT YOU'RE POINTING TO UNDERNEATH THAT IS AN ANGER THAT
00:17:11ISN'T REALLY ABOUT A TRACTABLE POLITICAL PROBLEM.
00:17:14>> CORRECT. AND, AND I THINK TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WHAT WE'RE ANGRY
00:17:18ABOUT, WE DO HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE SOURCES A LITTLE BIT. AND,
00:17:21AND IT GOES BACK A LONG, LONG
00:17:25TIME. UM, I, I'M A BIG FAN OF,
00:17:28OF THE WRITINGS OF ALEXIS DE TOCQUEVILLE WHEN HE CAME HERE IN
00:17:32THE 1830s AND, AND SAW THAT AMERICANS WERE REALLY UNIQUE AT FORMING INSTITUTIONS. THAT'S
00:17:35WHAT WE, WHAT WE DO. UM, IF WE
00:17:38WANTED TO BUILD A HOSPITAL OR A,
00:17:41UH, A SCHOOL, WE FORMED AN ASSOCIATION AND WE BUILT IT
00:17:44INSTEAD OF RELYING ON THE GOVERNMENT TO DO THOSE THINGS.
00:17:47AND WE GOT REALLY GOOD AT IT. SO MANY OF THOSE INSTITUTIONS NOW
00:17:50ARE DISAPPEARING. THEY'RE
00:17:52FAILING. UH, AND WHAT WE'RE,
00:17:55THERE'S A DOWNSTREAM EFFECT OF THAT THAT IS DEEPLY CONCERNING.
00:17:59UM, OF COURSE, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S HARD TO GET ANYTHING DONE. NOW. WE RELY ON GOVERNMENT.
00:18:03GOVERNMENT ISN'T GREAT AT THIS STUFF. IT WAS NEVER DESIGNED TO DO ALL OF THIS. GOVERNMENT IS
00:18:06SUPPOSED TO BE SLOW, METHODICAL. BUILDING, BUILDING COALITIONS
00:18:09TAKES TIME. AND, AND SO WE'RE
00:18:11WE'RE NOT RESPONDING THE WAY PEOPLE EXPECT GOVERNMENT TO,
00:18:15BECAUSE WE'RE EXPECTING MORE OF GOVERNMENT THAN EVER BEFORE. AND
00:18:18GOVERNMENT IS, IS MORE DYSFUNCTIONAL THAN IT'S BEEN IN
00:18:21A LONG, LONG TIME. AND SO THAT'S CERTAINLY LEADING TO
00:18:23SOME ANGST. BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, AS THESE INSTITUTIONS DISAPPEAR, AND MANY
00:18:27OF THEM WERE FAITH BASED INSTITUTIONS, FEWER PEOPLE ARE
00:18:30GOING TO CHURCH THAN EVER BEFORE. UM, AND WE DON'T HAVE
00:18:34ROTARY CLUBS, YOU KNOW, SOCIAL CLUBS LIKE WE USED TO. OF
00:18:37COURSE, DR. PUTNAM WRITES BOWLING ALONE 26 YEARS AGO,
00:18:41REALLY PRESCIENT IN SEEING WHERE WE'RE HEADED. AND, AND SO WE'RE
00:18:45LONELIER THAN WE'VE EVER BEEN BEFORE. AND THOSE HEALTHY
00:18:49TRIBES, WE'RE WIRED FOR CONNECTION AS THOSE HEALTHY TRIBES LEAVE US. WHAT DO WE HAVE
00:18:52LEFT? RIGHT. WELL, UM, ENTER
00:18:56SOCIAL MEDIA. SO INTO THIS VOID COMES THIS OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO
00:19:00CONNECT WITH MORE PEOPLE IN A WAY THAT WE ALL THOUGHT WOULD BE
00:19:02AWESOME. AND IT WAS, UNTIL THE
00:19:06SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES DECIDED THAT THEIR ALGORITHMS WERE MORE
00:19:09IMPORTANT THAN OUR ACTUAL
00:19:10CONNECTIONS, AND THOSE THAT
00:19:13ALGORITHMIC NATURE OF THE WAY WE
00:19:16GET ADDICTED, THE DOPAMINE HITS THAT COME FROM OUTRAGE, THE SAME
00:19:19TYPE OF DOPAMINE HITS YOU GET FROM FENTANYL OR SUGAR OR
00:19:23GAMBLING. WE NOW GET FROM FROM
00:19:25OUTRAGE. AND WE DON'T HAVE ANY
00:19:28REAL FRIENDS, SO WE CAN HATE THE SAME PEOPLE TOGETHER ON ON X.
00:19:30UM, THAT'S, THAT'S FILLING THIS
00:19:34VOID. AND THE CONFLICT ENTREPRENEURS NOW, STARTING WITH
00:19:37CABLE NEWS, WHERE THEY LEARNED THAT OUTRAGE WAS, WAS REALLY ADDICTIVE. AND IT WAS THE ONLY
00:19:40WAY TO GET US TO WATCH 24 HOURS A DAY, BECAUSE THERE WASN'T
00:19:43ENOUGH NEWS. NOW WE GET, WE GET SOCIAL MEDIA ALGORITHMS THAT
00:19:47ARE, ARE, ARE ACUTELY REFINED
00:19:52FOR US INDIVIDUALLY AND, AND WILL CONTINUE TO SERVE US UP
00:19:55MORE AND MORE EXTREME CONTENT TO
00:19:57KEEP OUR ATTENTION, WHICH THEN
00:20:00LEADS TO THE REMAINING
00:20:02INSTITUTIONS TURNING INTO
00:20:05PERFORMATIVE INSTITUTIONS. AS, AS, AGAIN, YOU WROTE SO WELL IN
00:20:07A TIME TO BUILD. AND, AND MY, MY
00:20:11FAVORITE THING IS TO ASK PEOPLE
00:20:14UM, WHO THEY'RE, UH, TO NAME SOME MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO
00:20:17AREN'T FROM THEIR STATE. AND,
00:20:20UH, EVERYONE CAN DO IT. AND THEY ALL NAME THE SAME 4 OR 5. AND
00:20:24THEY'RE WHO YOU THINK THEY ARE.
00:20:25THEY'RE THE MOST EXTREME
00:20:30MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO NEVER ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING BUT GET A LOT OF ATTENTION FOR THE STUFF
00:20:32THEY SAY. AND, UH, AND IT JUST
00:20:35LEADS TO AN UNHEALTHY, UNROOTED
00:20:39NESS WHERE WE'RE BEING FED CONFLICT, THAT GOD SHAPED HOLE
00:20:42IN OUR HEART THAT JONATHAN HAIDT WRITES ABOUT IS NOT BEING FILLED
00:20:45WITH SOMETHING NOBLE. AND SO
00:20:47WE'RE FILLING IT WITH, WITH
00:20:49GARBAGE. AND THAT GARBAGE IS MAKING US ALL FEEL REALLY BAD
00:20:53ABOUT THE PEOPLE AROUND US. IN A SELFISH WORLD. AND I WORLD WHERE
00:20:57WE'VE FORGOTTEN THE, WE, UH,
00:21:01THERE'S, THAT'S A LOT IN A, IN A SHORT ANSWER, BUT I THINK
00:21:03THAT'S, THAT'S, THAT'S MY THEORY OF THE CASE. THAT'S HOW
00:21:06WE GOT HERE. >> IT'S, IT'S A DISCOURAGING PICTURE. IT SUGGESTS THAT THIS.
00:21:11>> IS HIGHLY DISCOURAGING. >> OVERDETERMINED. THERE'S A
00:21:14LOT GOING ON. AND YET THERE'S A
00:21:15WAY IN THE BOOK THAT YOU TRY TO
00:21:19SUGGEST THAT OUR DIVISIONS ARE NOT AS DEEP AS THEY SEEM. THERE'S ONE OF THE EARLY
00:21:22CHAPTERS IS CALLED THINGS ARE WORSE THAN YOU THINK, AND ONE OF THE LATER CHAPTERS IS CALLED
00:21:26THINGS ARE NOT AS BAD AS YOU THINK. THAT'S RIGHT. AND IN
00:21:30WHAT WAYS ARE THEY WORSE, AND WHAT WAYS NOT AS BAD? AND HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT BALANCING THAT
00:21:34WHICH IS TRUE? HOW BAD ARE THINGS?
00:21:36>> YEAH. WELL, THE, THE BAD
00:21:38THINGS ARE PRETTY BAD. UH, AND THAT'S, YOU KNOW, IN THAT
00:21:42CHAPTER, I REALLY WANT PEOPLE
00:21:45CLEAR EYED. AND I'M A NATURALLY
00:21:49HOPEFUL PERSON. BUT, BUT I THINK
00:21:52PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND HOW BAD IT IS AND WHERE IT COULD GO,
00:21:55BECAUSE YOU DON'T MAKE CHANGES.
00:21:58IF, IF YOU DON'T THINK CHANGE NEEDS TO BE MADE. SO I WANT TO
00:22:02MAKE THE CASE EARLY, UH, AGAIN,
00:22:05USING THE RESEARCH ON AFFECTIVE POLARIZATION, ON CONTEMPT, ON
00:22:08THE THREATS OF VIOLENCE, I
00:22:11REALLY LAY OUT ALL OF THE ACTUAL VIOLENCE THAT HAS HAPPENED IN
00:22:15THE PAST TEN YEARS. AND AS YOU GO THROUGH THAT, IT IS A LITTLE
00:22:18DEPRESSING. BUT THERE WILL ALSO BE THINGS THAT YOU'VE FORGOTTEN
00:22:22AND YOU CAN'T BELIEVE YOU FORGOT. OH YEAH, I FORGOT THAT
00:22:25THAT HAPPENED. RIGHT. UM, AND SO
00:22:27I, I DO WANT TO SHOCK OUR
00:22:30CONSCIENCE JUST A LITTLE BIT UP
00:22:32FRONT. UM, BUT THEN I WANT TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT WE LIVE IN,
00:22:36IN THE GREATEST PERIOD OF TIME
00:22:39IN, IN THE WORLD. I MEAN, WE
00:22:41HAVE SO MUCH, WE LIVE IN AN AGE
00:22:44OF MIRACLES. UH, YOU KNOW, I HAVE, I HAVE TWO SIBLINGS WHO
00:22:46WERE BORN WITH CYSTIC FIBROSIS.
00:22:50THEY WERE THE AVERAGE LIFESPAN OF A CHILD WITH CYSTIC FIBROSIS.
00:22:52WHEN THEY WERE BORN IN THE LATE 70s AND EARLY 80s, WAS ABOUT 12
00:22:56YEARS OLD. UH, MY, MY BROTHER'S,
00:23:00MY BROTHER WILL TURN 49 THIS YEAR. MY SISTER WILL TURN 47
00:23:03THIS YEAR. THEY WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO HAVE KIDS. UM, MY, MY BROTHER
00:23:06HAS FOUR KIDS. UH, MY SISTER HAS
00:23:10TWO KIDS, ONE OF WHICH ALL HERS, BUT SHE ALMOST DIED GIVING BIRTH
00:23:14TO HER FIRST CHILD. SO MY, MY INCREDIBLE WIFE WAS A
00:23:17GESTATIONAL CARRIER FOR MY, MY
00:23:19SISTER 100% THEIR BABY. SHE WAS THE OVEN. AT LEAST THAT'S HOW
00:23:23WE EXPLAINED IT TO OUR LITTLE
00:23:25KIDS. UH, AND, UH, AND, AND
00:23:28HE'S, YOU KNOW, HE'S 13 YEARS,
00:23:3114 YEARS OLD. 15. OH MY GOSH, 15 YEARS OLD. UM, AND THERE ARE
00:23:35EVERY DAY WE SEE THESE
00:23:37INCREDIBLE, UH, CHANGES IN
00:23:40MEDICINE, UH, GREAT THINGS,
00:23:44POVERTY RATES ARE LOWER THAN THEY'VE EVER BEEN. CHILD
00:23:46POVERTY, EXTREME POVERTY, AND,
00:23:50AND THERE'S JUST SO MUCH GOOD IN THE WORLD. AND, UH, ONE OF
00:23:52THE THINGS I WORRY ABOUT, AGAIN,
00:23:55SOCIAL MEDIA AND OUR KIDS, ESPECIALLY THE BAD STUFF, HAS
00:23:59ALWAYS BEEN THERE. BUT RIGHT NOW, IT'S, IT'S IN FRONT OF US
00:24:01ALL OF THE TIME. AND IT'S NOT
00:24:05HEALTHY. WE, WE DID NOT EVOLVE
00:24:06TO BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH ALL THE
00:24:09BAD THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING IN THE WORLD. HISTORICALLY, WHEN
00:24:12SOMETHING BAD HAPPENED AND YOU FOUND OUT ABOUT IT, IT WAS GENERALLY WITHIN YOUR GEOGRAPHIC
00:24:16SPHERE WHERE YOU COULD ACTUALLY MAYBE DO SOMETHING POSITIVE,
00:24:19RIGHT? TO HELP OUT A FAMILY OR A
00:24:22NEIGHBOR, OR SOMEBODY WHO WAS STRUGGLING. UM, THERE'S, I MEAN,
00:24:26NOT A LOT YOU CAN DO FOR TERRIBLE THINGS THAT ARE
00:24:29HAPPENING IN, IN UKRAINE OR IN,
00:24:31IN ISRAEL AND GAZA, WHEREVER YOU
00:24:34ARE ON, ON THESE. AND SO WHAT DO WE DO? WE JUST GET ANGRIER AND
00:24:38ANGRIER AND ANGRIER, AND WE FEEL
00:24:41HELPLESS. AND, UH, PSYCHOLOGISTS
00:24:44WILL TELL YOU THAT, THAT AN
00:24:47INTERNAL LOCUS OF CONTROL VERSUS AN EXTERNAL LOCUS OF CONTROL ARE TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS. WHEN,
00:24:51WHEN THINGS ARE HAPPENING OUTSIDE OF YOU AND YOU HAVE NO
00:24:53CONTROL OVER IT, IT'S TERRIBLE FOR YOUR MENTAL HEALTH. UM, WHEN
00:24:56YOU FEEL EMPOWERED TO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING, THAT INTERNAL
00:25:00LOCUS OF CONTROL, THEN, UH, THEN YOU CAN, YOU CAN TAKE CHARGE OF
00:25:04YOUR LIFE. YOUR MENTAL HEALTH IS MUCH MORE POSITIVE. AND THIS IS
00:25:07WHY THE VERY BEST THING YOU CAN DO TO HELP WITH POLARIZATION, TO
00:25:11HELP WITH YOUR MENTAL HEALTH, IS TO GET OFF OF SOCIAL MEDIA. UM,
00:25:15IT'S, UH, SPEND MUCH, MUCH LESS TIME ON IT. THANK YOU. I, I HAVE
00:25:18TO ADMIT, I'M ADDICTED TO
00:25:20TWITTER. UH, I UH, I, I DELETED
00:25:23IT OFF OF MY PHONE IN DECEMBER OF LAST YEAR. IT WAS THE BEST THING I EVER DID FOR A WEEK
00:25:26AFTER THAT, I WOULD PULL MY PHONE OUT AND I WOULD PUSH A BUTTON THAT NO LONGER EXISTED ON
00:25:30MY PHONE 40 TIMES A DAY, AT
00:25:34LEAST, LIKE A, A RAT IN A
00:25:36FENTANYL WATER CAGE. UH, JUST
00:25:39PUSHING THAT BUTTON TO GET MY, MY NEXT HIT. AND ONCE, ONCE I,
00:25:42ONCE I GOT RID OF THAT, MY MENTAL HEALTH IMPROVED. UM, I
00:25:46WAS ABLE TO, I STARTED READING
00:25:48LONG FORM AGAIN. I JUST FINISHED
00:25:52THE COUNT OF MONTE CRISTO, SOMETHING I WOULD NOT HAVE DONE
00:25:54A YEAR AGO. I WROTE A BOOK, SOMETHING I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN
00:25:57ABLE TO DO. I GOT MY FOCUS BACK. I GOT MY FAMILY BACK. UH. I
00:26:01BECAME A BETTER HUMAN BEING, A BETTER GOVERNOR. UH, THERE ARE
00:26:05LOTS OF THINGS WE CAN DO, BUT THAT'S, THAT'S THE FIRST ONE. IF WE, IF WE WANT TO GET OUR
00:26:08COUNTRY BACK. >> TELL ME WHAT THIS PERIOD THAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING, THIS PATH
00:26:12YOU'RE DESCRIBING, HAS LOOKED LIKE IN YOUR PROFESSION. YOU'VE
00:26:16BEEN IN ELECTED OFFICE FOR MORE
00:26:18THAN 20 YEARS. HOW IS POLITICS
00:26:20DIFFERENT THAN IT WAS BEFORE THE
00:26:23ERA YOU'RE LAYING OUT HERE?
00:26:25>> IT'S IT'S MUCH LESS
00:26:28ENJOYABLE. UM, WHEN, UH, I, YOU
00:26:31KNOW, LOOK, I'M, I CAME TO
00:26:34WASHINGTON, D.C. WHEN I WAS EIGHT YEARS OLD. MY UNCLE WHO LIVED OUT HERE, WE HAD NEVER
00:26:38TRAVELED, COULDN'T AFFORD TO TRAVEL. HE WORKED FOR THE GOVERNMENT, AND HE PAID FOR US
00:26:41TO COME AND VISIT. AND, UH, TOOK
00:26:43US TO THE MONUMENTS, WENT TO
00:26:47MONTICELLO, CHANGED MY LIFE. AND I KNEW THAT I LOVED THIS STUFF.
00:26:51AND, UH, AND SO I READ THE FOUNDERS, I STUDIED POLITICAL
00:26:54SCIENCE. I WENT TO A WASHINGTON AND LEE LAW SCHOOL HERE IN
00:26:57VIRGINIA, AND, UH, AND KNEW THAT
00:27:01SOMEDAY I WANTED TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS. NEVER AT THIS LEVEL. I WANTED TO SERVE ON THE CITY
00:27:04COUNCIL IN MY LITTLE TOWN OF 1000 PEOPLE, WHICH I GOT TO DO,
00:27:06AND THOUGHT THAT WAS IT. I MADE
00:27:08IT. AND, UH, SO I LOVED IT. I
00:27:11LOVED SOLVING PROBLEMS. I LOVED
00:27:13THE DEBATE. AND, UH, GOVERNOR
00:27:16HERBERT, MY PREDECESSOR, WHEN HE ASKED ME TO BE LIEUTENANT
00:27:20GOVERNOR, INCREDIBLE HUMAN
00:27:21BEING, UH, WONDERFUL GOVERNOR.
00:27:24AND, UH, WE, WE GOT TO WORK
00:27:26TOGETHER. I BECAME LIEUTENANT
00:27:29GOVERNOR IN 2013, AND IT WAS,
00:27:32UH, WE HAD A LOT OF FUN. WE REALLY DID. WE WORKED TOGETHER.
00:27:35WE GOT TO SOLVE PROBLEMS. I THINK IF HE WERE HERE. PAUL
00:27:38EDWARDS IS HERE. PAUL ALSO WORKED FOR GOVERNOR HERBERT. HE WOULD TELL YOU THAT THE LAST FEW
00:27:42YEARS OF BEING GOVERNOR WERE NOT
00:27:43MUCH FUN. AND, UH, IT'S THE,
00:27:46IT'S THE GREATEST JOB IN ALL OF POLITICS. I STILL BELIEVE THAT.
00:27:49I WILL, I WILL BELIEVE THAT TO, TO MY DEATH. AND YET GOVERNORS
00:27:53WHO KIND OF BRIDGE THAT TIME
00:27:55WILL TELL YOU THAT IT WENT FROM,
00:27:58UH, FROM, HEY, WE CAN, WE CAN FIGURE STUFF OUT, WE CAN GET STUFF DONE. IT. OF COURSE,
00:28:02THERE'S A LOT OF ANIMOSITY AND
00:28:04IT'S ALL FAIR GAME TO. IT'S
00:28:06JUST DARK. AND, UH, THE HATE,
00:28:11THE THREATS CONSTANTLY OUT THERE, IT'S, UH, IT'S PRETTY,
00:28:14UH, IT'S, I'M BEING A LITTLE TOO HONEST OUT THERE, BUT IT'S
00:28:17PRETTY AWFUL. YOU KNOW, WE. >> EVEN IN UTAH. >> EVEN, EVEN.
00:28:20>> IN UTAH, WE HAVE A SENSE FROM HERE, FROM THIS DISTANCE THAT
00:28:23UTAH IS SORT OF LIKE LIVING IN THE 1950s.
00:28:26>> YEAH. YEAH. WELL, UM, IN SOME WAYS, I THINK THAT THAT'S TRUE.
00:28:30IT'S BETTER IN UTAH THAN, THAN ANYWHERE ELSE, FOR SURE. STILL,
00:28:33STILL IT IS. BUT, UM, AS YOU KNOW, WE'RE, WE'RE, WE'RE PART
00:28:37OF THIS NATION AS THE NATION.
00:28:40DIGRESSES. THERE'S A DIGRESSION THAT'S HAPPENING THERE AS WELL.
00:28:43AND, UH, AND YET I KNOW THIS SOUNDS SO NEGATIVE AND I JUST, I
00:28:47NEED TO TELL YOU, THOUGH,
00:28:48SOMETHING'S HAPPENING. LIKE
00:28:52IT'S CHANGING OUT THERE. UM, AS I TRAVEL THE COUNTRY, WHICH I'M
00:28:56DOING, WE WERE JUST IN MICHIGAN, TENNESSEE, AND DC. WE WERE IN
00:29:00NEW YORK LAST WEEK.
00:29:03PHILADELPHIA, UH, THE PEOPLE ARE, ARE, ARE LOOKING FOR
00:29:07SOMETHING DIFFERENT. THEY'RE LOGGING OFF OF SOCIAL MEDIA. I
00:29:10LIKEN IT TO KIND OF THE, THE
00:29:13HEALTH FOOD CRAZE WHERE WE, UM,
00:29:17MANY OF US HAVE STOPPED EATING,
00:29:18UH, FOOD THAT IS DELICIOUS AND
00:29:21SO GOOD AND STARTED BUYING MORE EXPENSIVE FOOD THAT TASTES
00:29:25TERRIBLE. UH, BECAUSE, BECAUSE WE KNOW IT'S BETTER FOR US. AND
00:29:29WE, WE, WE MAY FEEL GOOD FOR A SHORT TIME WITH THE BAD STUFF,
00:29:32BUT WE KNOW IT'S NOT HEALTHY. SO WE'RE, WE'RE TRYING TO TAKE CONTROL. SAME THING IS HAPPENING
00:29:36WITH OUR BRAINS. MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE LOGGING OFF OF SOCIAL
00:29:39MEDIA. THEY'RE LOOKING FOR CANDIDATES WHO ARE LESS DIVISIVE. THEY'RE TIRED OF
00:29:43WHAT'S HAPPENING OUT THERE. AND I FEEL THE BACKLASH COMING TO
00:29:47THE CONTEMPT. AND, AND SO I DON'T I DON'T WANT TO END
00:29:50NEGATIVELY. I LIKE I'M ENJOYING BEING GOVERNOR NOW THAN I DID
00:29:53TWO YEARS AGO. MORE NOW BECAUSE
00:29:56BECAUSE I'M STARTING TO SEE MORE AND MORE PEOPLE WHO ARE,
00:29:59WHO ARE DESPERATE FOR, FOR SOMETHING BETTER. >> SO TELL US WHAT THAT CAN LOOK
00:30:03LIKE. HOW DO WE TAKE THIS OFFRAMP POLITICALLY AND PERSONALLY?
00:30:06>> SO, SO THERE'S A COUPLE
00:30:08WAYS, UM, THE, WE ALWAYS HAVE
00:30:12THESE DISCUSSIONS AND IT'S ALL KIND OF AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL. AND I'LL TALK ABOUT THAT IN A
00:30:16MINUTE, BECAUSE I DO THINK THAT THAT'S IMPORTANT. UM, BUT, BUT
00:30:19I'M, I'M A BIG BELIEVER IN
00:30:22AGENCY THAT, THAT ALL OF US HAVE AGENCY AND WE INDIVIDUALLY GET
00:30:25TO MAKE CHOICES AGAIN, THAT INTERNAL LOCUS OF CONTROL. UM, I
00:30:28ALSO BELIEVE THAT IN MY FAITH,
00:30:32THERE'S A, THERE'S A SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THE NATURAL MAN IS AN
00:30:34ENEMY TO GOD AND HAS BEEN SINCE
00:30:36THE BEGINNING. UM, AND I THINK
00:30:39FROM A CONSERVATIVE STANDPOINT, MOST OF US BELIEVE THAT HUMAN
00:30:43NATURE, UM, LEFT UNTEMPERED. AND
00:30:46WITHOUT THESE FORMATIVE
00:30:48INSTITUTIONS WOULD LEAD US TO SOME VERY DARK AND BAD PLACES.
00:30:51LIKE WE'RE INTENSELY SELFISH HUMAN BEINGS, OUR WORST IMPULSES
00:30:55ARE THERE FOR, FOR ALL OF US.
00:30:57AND, AND WE NEED TO, TO WORK
00:30:59CONSTANTLY TO OVERCOME THAT.
00:31:02AND, AND, AND THESE INSTITUTIONS HELP US DO THAT. AND ONE OF THE
00:31:05MOST IMPORTANT INSTITUTIONS IS THE INSTITUTION OF THE FAMILY.
00:31:09THE MORE LOCAL, THE INSTITUTION,
00:31:11THE BETTER, THE MORE FORMATIVE IT IS. AND ONE OF MY CONCERNS
00:31:15THAT I TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK IS THAT, UH, IF YOU, IF YOU GO
00:31:19BACK, YOU KNOW, TEN, 15 YEARS AGO, ONLY ABOUT 6% OF AMERICANS
00:31:22HAD STOPPED TALKING TO A FAMILY MEMBER OR A CLOSE PERSONAL
00:31:25FRIEND BECAUSE OF POLITICS. TODAY, THAT NUMBER IS NORTH OF
00:31:2926% AND RISING RAPIDLY. UM, AND
00:31:31SO I MAKE THE CASE THAT IF WE
00:31:35WANT TO SAVE OUR COUNTRY, WE ACTUALLY HAVE TO FOCUS MORE AT
00:31:36THE LOCAL LEVEL, THE HYPER LOCAL LEVEL. AND THAT IS THAT WE, WE
00:31:40HAVE TO STOP WRITING OFF OUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY MEMBERS
00:31:43BECAUSE THEY VOTED FOR THE WRONG PERSON. UH, NOW, NOW THERE ARE,
00:31:47I'M NOT TELLING PEOPLE THEY HAVE TO STAY IN A TOXIC
00:31:49RELATIONSHIP. WHAT I AM TELLING YOU IS THAT 95% OF THE
00:31:53RELATIONSHIPS YOU THINK ARE
00:31:55TOXIC ARE NOT THAT. THIS IS ONE
00:31:57OF THE TERRIBLE MISTRUTHS THAT
00:32:00HAVE BEEN ACCEPTED, THAT ANYBODY WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS MY
00:32:03ENEMY, UM, INCLUDING FAMILY
00:32:06MEMBERS AND FRIENDS. AND SO I
00:32:08TALK ABOUT HOW TO HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS AT THE HYPER LOCAL
00:32:12LEVEL. UM, I THINK WE NEED TO
00:32:14FOCUS MORE ON COMMUNITIES, ON SERVICE AND GIVING BACK. I
00:32:18BELIEVE THAT COMMUNITY IS THE ANSWER TO ALL OF OUR SOCIAL
00:32:21PROBLEMS RIGHT NOW. UH, THAT WHEN WE, WHEN WE GET MORE
00:32:24ENGAGED, WHEN WE SERVE AND GIVE
00:32:28BACK IN OUR NEIGHBORHOODS, STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN WASHINGTON, D.C., AND START
00:32:31WORRYING ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NEXT DOOR. WHEN I WAS STUDYING POLITICAL SCIENTISTS,
00:32:35THE FIRST THING THEY TAUGHT US
00:32:37WAS THAT ALL POLITICS IS LOCAL. WHEN A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE
00:32:41COMES TO YOUR TOWN, THEY WOULD
00:32:41LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR TOWN SO THEY COULD FEEL LIKE YOU
00:32:45WOULD FEEL LIKE THEY KNEW YOU, LIKE THEY WERE A PART OF YOU. I DON'T BELIEVE THAT ANYMORE.
00:32:48NOW, ALL POLITICS IS NATIONAL. IF YOU GO TO A SCHOOL BOARD MEETING, THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT
00:32:52SOMETHING CRAZY THAT HAPPENED TEN STATES AWAY, UH, AT THE
00:32:56NATIONAL LEVEL. WE'VE GOT TO GET BACK TO THE, TO THE LOCAL LEVEL.
00:32:59THAT'S HOW WE FIX THIS. AND, AND THIS IS THE SECOND PART. UM,
00:33:03WE DO NEED POLITICIANS TO, TO
00:33:06TRY TO BETTER MODEL THIS BEHAVIOR. WE, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE
00:33:08DOING WITH THE NATIONAL GOVERNORS ASSOCIATION. WE, WE,
00:33:12WE STARTED A NONPROFIT CALLED
00:33:14DISAGREE BETTER. THEY'RE DOING INCREDIBLE WORK. WE FILMED ADS
00:33:17TOGETHER WITH GOVERNORS, REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS. UH,
00:33:20STANFORD, UH, STUDIED THESE ADS AT THEIR DEPOLARIZATION LAB.
00:33:24THEY FOUND THAT THEY HAVE A DEPOLARIZATION EFFECT ON THE
00:33:273000 PEOPLE. THEY TESTED THESE
00:33:28ADS ON. AND THEY ALSO, AND THIS
00:33:32WAS A LITTLE BIT UNEXPECTED. UH,
00:33:33THEY, THEY INCREASE A PERSON'S,
00:33:37UM, FEELINGS OF TRUST IN OUR DEMOCRATIC NORMS. AND SO IT'S
00:33:41GOOD FOR DEMOCRACY TO SEE PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE
00:33:45AISLE TALKING TO EACH OTHER AND
00:33:47WORKING TOGETHER ON PROBLEMS. SO NOW DISAGREE BETTER IS WORKING
00:33:51WITH MEMBERS OF CONGRESS. WE'RE FILMING ADS ALL THE TIME. HOPEFULLY, YOU'LL BE SEEING MORE
00:33:54OF THOSE, NOT JUST ON SOCIAL MEDIA, BUT WE ACTUALLY HAVE SOME
00:33:57FUNDING NOW TO PUT THEM ON TV, AND WE WANT A SUPER BOWL AD. SO
00:34:00IF YOU HAVE ANY BIG DONORS THAT YOU KNOW, LET US KNOW. WE'D LOVE
00:34:03YOUR HELP. BUT THOSE, THOSE ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE CAN DO TO GET US.
00:34:06>> WELL, WHAT DOES THAT LATTER PART LOOK LIKE AS POLITICS? HOW
00:34:09DOES IT PLAY FOR A POLITICIAN TO
00:34:12MAKE THIS CASE, TO TRY TO PLAY
00:34:13THIS ROLE? UH, IS IT EFFECTIVE
00:34:18WITH VOTERS? WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE TO PEOPLE TRYING TO RUN FOR OFFICE?
00:34:20>> YEAH. SO WE, UM, TWO THINGS
00:34:22I, WHEN, WHEN, UH, WHEN MY WIFE AND I, WHEN ABBY AND I DECIDED
00:34:26THAT WE WERE GOING TO RUN FOR
00:34:27GOVERNOR, UM, WE, WE TRIED
00:34:30SOMETHING REALLY CRAZY. UM, WE, UH, A FRIEND OF MINE HAD, HAD,
00:34:34HAD WORKED ON THE, THE ROMNEY CAMPAIGN IN 2012, AND HE CAME
00:34:37BACK VERY DISCOURAGED. AND HE
00:34:40SAID, I HATED IT. HE SAID BOTH CANDIDATES SPENT $1 BILLION. AND
00:34:43HE ASKED THE QUESTION, IS OUR
00:34:47COUNTRY BETTER OFF AT THE END OF THAT CAMPAIGN THAN AT THE BEGINNING? $2 BILLION WERE
00:34:50SPENT. WERE WE BETTER OFF AS A COUNTRY? AND HE MADE A PRETTY PASSIONATE CASE THAT WE WERE
00:34:54NOT. WE GOT THE SAME PRESIDENT WE WOULD HAVE GOTTEN IF THEY'D
00:34:57SPENT $0. UH, AND THEY SPENT $2
00:35:00BILLION TRYING TO DIVIDE US. AND
00:35:02SO WE STARTED TALKING ABOUT,
00:35:05COULD WE RUN A CAMPAIGN WHERE EVEN IF WE LOST, AT LEAST THE
00:35:09STATE WOULD BE BETTER OFF AT THE
00:35:10END OF THAT CAMPAIGN? IS THAT IS
00:35:13THAT EVEN POSSIBLE? AND HE SAID,
00:35:15WHAT IF, WHAT IF, YOU KNOW, MITT
00:35:18ROMNEY HAD SPENT $1 BILLION TO, UM, YOU KNOW, TO, TO BUILD, UH,
00:35:22PARKS IN INNER CITY CHICAGO? UM,
00:35:24AND, YOU KNOW, JUST TO DO GOOD, WHAT WOULD THAT HAVE LOOKED LIKE
00:35:27TO DO SERVICE, USE A VOLUNTEER? HE HAD TENS OF THOUSANDS OF
00:35:31VOLUNTEERS. WHAT IF WE USED THEM
00:35:33TO SERVE INSTEAD OF KNOCKED
00:35:35DOORS AND, AND DO, UH, TERRIBLE
00:35:39FUNDRAISING EMAILS? LIKE, WHAT WOULD THAT HAVE LOOKED LIKE? SO WE DECIDED TO DO THAT, AND WE
00:35:43SAID WE WOULD NOT RUN ANY NEGATIVE ADS. WE'D ONLY RUN
00:35:46POSITIVE ADS. AND WE WOULD. WE GOT MY DAD'S RV, WE WENT TO
00:35:50VISIT, UM, ALL 248 CITIES IN
00:35:54UTAH. UH, AND WE DID SERVICE PROJECTS EVERYWHERE WE WENT. WE
00:35:57HAD OUR VOLUNTEERS SHOW UP TO DO SERVICE PROJECTS. WE PAINTED
00:36:00FENCES. UH, WE, WE SERVED FOOD
00:36:04AT A HOMELESS SHELTER. WE, WE
00:36:06CUT GRASS AT A, AT A BALLPARK.
00:36:09UH, WE JUST, IT WAS JUST, HEY,
00:36:11LET'S TRY POSITIVE THINGS. AND,
00:36:14UH, AS, AS THE PRIME, THIS WAS
00:36:17THE PRIMARY. AND AS THE PRIMARY APPROACHED, THERE WERE FOUR OF
00:36:20US ON THE PRIMARY BALLOT. ONE OF THEM, FORMER GOVERNOR OF UTAH,
00:36:24UH, BILLIONAIRE, UH, 100% NAME
00:36:27ID, VERY POPULAR GOVERNOR JON HUNTSMAN. HE'D RUN FOR
00:36:31PRESIDENT. HE HAD BEEN THE AMBASSADOR TO CHINA. HE'D BEEN THE AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA. WHEN
00:36:35HE JUMPED INTO THE RACE, HE THOUGHT, WELL, WE'RE GOING TO
00:36:38LOSE. BUT THE THE GOOD NEWS IS WE DID A BUNCH OF SERVICE
00:36:41PROJECTS, AND WE FEEL REALLY
00:36:42GOOD ABOUT, ABOUT THIS. UM, LAST
00:36:45DEBATE, UH, WE'RE, WE'RE ON STAGE TOGETHER. I HAVE ONE
00:36:48MINUTE. I'M TAKING ALL THE INCOME BECAUSE WE WERE WINNING.
00:36:51WE WERE SHOCKED THAT WE WERE UP IN THE POLLS, BUT ALL THE
00:36:54NEGATIVE ADS STARTED TO POUR IN, AND WE COULD SEE IT ERODING OUR,
00:36:57YOU KNOW, OUR, OUR NUMBERS EVERY WEEK STARTED GOING DOWN A NOTCH.
00:37:01AND WE KNEW IT WAS GOING TO BE REALLY CLOSE. UM, I GET ONE MINUTE AT THE END OF THIS
00:37:05DEBATE, SAY ANYTHING I WANTED. I HAD MY, MY ONE MINUTE PREPARED.
00:37:08I JUST SCRAPPED IT. AND I SAID,
00:37:11LOOK, YOU GUYS, IF I HAVE TO SAY NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT THESE
00:37:14THREE GENTLEMEN TO BE YOUR GOVERNOR, THEN THEN I DON'T
00:37:17DESERVE TO BE YOUR GOVERNOR. AND
00:37:21THAT WENT VIRAL. EVERYWHERE I
00:37:23WENT, PEOPLE SAID TO ME, I WAS WASN'T GOING TO VOTE FOR YOU.
00:37:27BUT WHEN YOU SAID THAT, I CHANGED MY MIND AND DECIDED THAT
00:37:30I WAS GOING TO VOTE FOR YOU, AND WE WON. SO I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE
00:37:33SAYING. THAT'S UTAH, IT'S THE 1950s IN UTAH THAT WORKS THERE.
00:37:37SO WHEN WE STARTED DOING THESE
00:37:38ADS WITH DISAGREE BETTER, UM, WE KNEW THEY HAD A DEPOLARIZATION
00:37:42EFFECT. WE WERE GRATEFUL FOR THAT. WE ASKED THEM TO DO A NEW
00:37:46STUDY. AND THE STUDY WAS AROUND
00:37:48PEOPLE'S RESPONSES, HOW THEY FELT ABOUT THE CANDIDATES. HOW
00:37:52DID REPUBLICANS FEEL ABOUT THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE? HOW DID
00:37:55REPUBLICANS FEEL ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE AND VICE
00:37:58VERSA? UM, WHAT WE FOUND WAS A
00:38:03SIGNIFICANT AND MEASURABLE INCREASE IN FAVORABILITY TOWARDS
00:38:06BOTH CANDIDATES, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER YOU WERE A REPUBLICAN OR
00:38:09A DEMOCRAT, TO SEE A POSITIVE MESSAGE OF TWO PEOPLE WORKING
00:38:13TOGETHER, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD
00:38:15EXTREME DISAGREEMENTS ON POLICY ISSUES. AND THE REASON I HOPED
00:38:19THAT WOULD BE TRUE IS I WANTED SOME SCIENCE BEHIND IT. BUT, BUT
00:38:22I WANTED TO, TO REALLY MAKE THE CASE TO MY FELLOW POLITICIANS
00:38:26THAT YOU SHOULD DO THIS FOR THE GOOD OF YOUR COUNTRY, FOR, FOR THE GOOD OF HUMANITY, FOR THE
00:38:30GOOD OF YOUR OWN SOUL. BUT IF YOU WON'T DO IT FOR ANY OF
00:38:33THOSE REASONS, DO IT. BECAUSE IN A MACHIAVELLIAN SENSE, IT WILL
00:38:37HELP YOU GET ELECTED. AND, UH,
00:38:41AND STANFORD AGREED THAT THAT THESE MESSAGES CAN HELP YOU GET
00:38:44ELECTED. SO WE'RE GOING TO KEEP MAKING THAT CASE AND HOPEFULLY GET SOME MONEY BEHIND IT.
00:38:48>> UM, DO PEOPLE FIND IT PERSUASIVE? YOU TELL A STORY IN
00:38:51THE BOOK ABOUT TRYING TO
00:38:52PERSUADE FORMER PRESIDENT BIDEN
00:38:55TO PARDON DONALD TRUMP. UM, VERY MUCH ALONG THESE LINES, A KIND
00:38:58OF CASE THAT IT WOULD ACTUALLY BE WELL RECEIVED, ULTIMATELY.
00:39:02AND THAT IT WOULD IMPROVE THE
00:39:04POLITICAL CULTURE. TELL US ABOUT
00:39:07THAT AND HOW IT WENT AND HOW HE RESPONDED, AND HOW YOU UNDERSTAND THAT NOW.
00:39:11>> YES. SO, UM, SO HE CAME TO
00:39:12VISIT UTAH. WE MET HIM ON THE
00:39:15TARMAC, UM, WHICH, BY THE WAY, IS SOMETHING THAT EVERY GOVERNOR
00:39:19AND PRESIDENT HAS DONE FROM TIME
00:39:21IMMEMORIAL. AND I GOT KILLED FOR
00:39:23IT. LIKE, I SHOULDN'T EVEN SHOW UP TO WELCOME THE PRESIDENT. SO
00:39:27I JUST, AGAIN, JUST A LITTLE FLAVOR EVEN IN UTAH. UM, AND,
00:39:31UH, HE ASKED ABBY AND I IF WE WANTED TO RIDE WITH HIM TO HIS
00:39:35HOTEL. IT WAS A QUICK RIDE. IT WAS ABOUT TEN MINUTES. SO WE GOT, OF COURSE, IF YOU GET A
00:39:38CHANCE TO RIDE IN THE BEAST, THE PRESIDENTIAL LIMOUSINE, JUST
00:39:41SAY, YES. IT'S A, IT'S, IT'S
00:39:44REALLY COOL. UH, AND IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO THE PRESIDENT IS,
00:39:47JUST DO IT. SO WE GET IN, WE, WE DRIVE, WE HAVE A REALLY
00:39:51DELIGHTFUL CONVERSATION. UM, AND
00:39:53WE, WE KNEW THE PRESIDENT, WE'D
00:39:56WORKED ON SOME ISSUES TOGETHER
00:39:59AND WE GOT THERE AND SO ENGROSSED IN THE CONVERSATION THAT WE, I MEAN, WE JUST
00:40:02EXPECTED THAT WE WOULD BE USHERED OUT. AND HE SAID, NO, NO, STAY. LET'S, LET'S KEEP
00:40:06TALKING. I DON'T KNOW, WE WERE IN THE CAR FOR AT LEAST 30
00:40:09MINUTES, MAYBE LONGER, MAYBE 45
00:40:11MINUTES JUST SITTING THERE, UM, WITH THE CAR RUNNING, UH,
00:40:15POLLUTING THE AIR. I DON'T KNOW, IT WAS, IT WAS, IT WAS A
00:40:18WONDERFUL CONVERSATION. AND I JUST, YOU KNOW, HAD SOME THINGS I WANTED TO TALK TO HIM ABOUT.
00:40:21WE GOT THROUGH ALL THOSE. AND I'M JUST LIKE, AH, SCREW IT,
00:40:25MR. PRESIDENT. I HAVE A CRAZY THING TO ASK. I REALLY THINK
00:40:28THAT YOU SHOULD. YOU SHOULD
00:40:30PARDON? UM, FORMER PRESIDENT
00:40:34TRUMP AND I EXPECTED HIM TO DISMISS ME JUST RIGHT OUT OF THE
00:40:37GATE. AND, UH, IT WAS, IT WAS
00:40:40THE EXACT OPPOSITE. HE, HE GOT
00:40:43VERY SERIOUS. AND HE KIND OF LOOKED AT ME LIKE, LIKE, HOW DID
00:40:47YOU KNOW? AND, UM, HE, HE SAID,
00:40:50HE SAID, UH, YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN
00:40:53SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING THIS, UH, IN FACT, MY WIFE AND I STAYED UP VERY LATE THE OTHER NIGHT
00:40:57TALKING ABOUT THIS. WE WERE IN BED TOGETHER. IT CAME UP, WE
00:40:59WERE GOING BACK AND FORTH. HE'S, UH, YOU KNOW, HE WAS, HE WAS
00:41:02VERY. I MEAN, IT WAS VERY CLEAR THAT HE WASN'T JUST HUMORING ME, BECAUSE I HAD ASKED HIM
00:41:06ABOUT A BUNCH OF OTHER THINGS WHERE HE DID NOT HUMOR ME. UM,
00:41:09AND, UH, BUT, BUT ON THIS ONE, HE WAS, HE WAS VERY SERIOUS. AND
00:41:13HE SAID, BUT HE SAID, I HAVE TO
00:41:14TELL YOU, LIKE, I, I JUST THINK
00:41:17THAT THE PEOPLE, UM, THE PEOPLE
00:41:20DEMAND JUSTICE. AND, UH, I REALLY WORRY THAT IT WOULD BE
00:41:24POORLY RECEIVED. AND, UH, YOU KNOW, READING BETWEEN THE LINES,
00:41:27IT WAS KIND OF, ESPECIALLY IN MY PARTY, YOU KNOW, HIS BASE WOULDN'T, WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN
00:41:31SUPPORTIVE OF THAT. AND I LOOK,
00:41:35I UNDERSTAND THAT FOR SURE. UM,
00:41:36BUT, UH, BUT I FELT LIKE THIS
00:41:39WAS SOMETHING THAT COULD HAVE BEEN AN HISTORIC MOMENT, COULD
00:41:43HAVE REALLY CHANGED THE COURSE OF DIALOG. HE DID SAY TO ME, HE
00:41:45SAID, I PROMISE YOU, I WILL
00:41:48SPEND MORE TIME THINKING ABOUT IT. AND, UH, AND, UH, OBVIOUSLY,
00:41:52HE DECIDED NOT TO, UH, HE, HE PARDONED A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE,
00:41:55UH, BUT, UH, BUT, BUT NOT, NOT, NOT THE PRESIDENT.
00:41:59>> THAT, IN A WAY, DESCRIBES WHAT YOU HAD, WHAT YOU DESCRIBED
00:42:02AT THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONVERSATION AS A KIND OF MARKET
00:42:04FAILURE IN THE POLITICAL SYSTEM, OR AT LEAST YOU SEEM TO THINK OF
00:42:07IT AS A MARKET FAILURE, THAT
00:42:10THAT A CHANGE OF ATTITUDE WOULD BE, WOULD BE WELL RECEIVED. BUT
00:42:14POLITICIANS DON'T THINK SO. UM
00:42:18DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT MARKET
00:42:20FAILURE? WHY IS IT THAT WE
00:42:23DON'T SEE AN EXCEPTION TO THE RULE THAT PEOPLE ARE EXHAUSTED
00:42:26BY? WHY ISN'T SOMEONE TRYING
00:42:28THAT, UM, IN A BIG WAY?
00:42:30>> YEAH. I MEAN, WELL, I THINK, I THINK SOME PEOPLE ARE TRYING
00:42:34IT. I MEAN, THERE ARE POCKETS OF THIS HAPPENING AND WE SEE THEM
00:42:38AND WE ENCOURAGE IT. UM, THE,
00:42:41FOR, FOR ONE REASON, IT GOES BACK TO AN EARLIER ANSWER THAT I
00:42:45GAVE, AND THAT IS THAT THE
00:42:47POLITICS IS, IS SO HARD RIGHT NOW, UM, THAT A LOT OF THE, A
00:42:50LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD TRY THIS
00:42:54JUST DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S WORTH IT TO EVEN, EVEN GET
00:42:56ENGAGED. AND THAT, THAT CONCERNS
00:42:58ME, UM, THAT WE NEED, UM, A LOT
00:43:01OF REALLY GOOD PEOPLE WHO WOULD BE GREAT AT THIS HAVE JUST
00:43:04DECIDED. YEAH, NOT NOW, NOT IT'S TOO HARD ON MY FAMILY.
00:43:07IT'S TOO UGLY OUT THERE. I DON'T WANT TO SUBMIT TO THIS.
00:43:10AND SO I THINK THAT'S CERTAINLY ONE OF IT. WE'RE ATTRACTING SOME
00:43:14OF THE WRONG PEOPLE. UM, I THINK
00:43:17WE HAVE A STRUCTURAL PROBLEM. I THINK THAT THE WAY THAT WE
00:43:20CHOOSE CANDIDATES, UM, CERTAINLY
00:43:24TENDS THE, THE EXTREMES OF BOTH
00:43:26PARTIES GET A BIGGER SAY IN, IN,
00:43:29IN WHO BECOMES THE NOMINEES FOR OUR PARTY. UH, YOU KNOW,
00:43:32THERE'S, THERE IS AN ARGUMENT OUT THERE, ONE THAT, THAT I'M
00:43:35OPEN TO THAT, THAT
00:43:38GERRYMANDERING, HAVING FEWER DISTRICTS THAT ARE, ARE MORE
00:43:41EVENLY DIVIDED HAS MADE IT VERY DIFFICULT. UM, AND FOR, FOR THAT
00:43:45TYPE OF MESSAGE, POTENTIALLY TO, TO PLAY OUT, ALTHOUGH I WILL
00:43:49JUST SAY, I THINK THE GERRYMANDERING PROBLEM IS A PROBLEM, BUT NOT NEARLY AS BIG.
00:43:52IT'S, IT'S, IT'S NOT EVEN MAYBE IN THE TOP 5 OR 6. UM,
00:43:56BUT, BUT THERE ARE LOTS OF STRUCTURAL ISSUES THAT I THINK
00:44:00MAKE IT MAKE IT DIFFICULT FOR
00:44:02PEOPLE TO, TO, TO TRY OR WANT TO
00:44:05ENGAGE. MOSTLY, I JUST THINK THAT THE POLITICAL INDUSTRIAL
00:44:08COMPLEX IS THE MOST COWARDLY OF
00:44:11THE INDUSTRIAL COMPLEXES, AND
00:44:13THAT WHAT HAPPENS IS IF SOMETHING IS SUCCESSFUL, THEN
00:44:17EVERYONE ELSE KIND OF DOES IT. AND, UH, NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNING
00:44:21WORKED. AND SO PEOPLE STARTED TO
00:44:22DO IT. NOW, I DO THINK THAT WE DID GO THROUGH A PERIOD OF TIME,
00:44:26AND WE'RE STILL IN THAT TIME WHERE A LOT OF PEOPLE WANTED
00:44:30THAT, UH, YOU KNOW, WE, MY PARTY NOMINATED THE NICEST GUY IN THE
00:44:34WORLD IN 2012. AND, UH, AND HE
00:44:37WAS VILIFIED. YOU KNOW, JOE BIDEN SAID THAT MITT ROMNEY
00:44:41WANTED TO PUT BLACK PEOPLE IN CHAINS. AND, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE
00:44:44GOING TO PUSH GRANDMA OFF THE CLIFF AND TAKE AWAY YOUR HEALTH
00:44:46CARE. AND, AND, UH, HE'S A CORPORATE RAIDER. HE'S AN EVIL
00:44:49HUMAN BEING. UH, AND SO I THINK
00:44:53PRESIDENT TRUMP SAW THAT AND SAID, OH, THIS IS, THIS IS THE
00:44:56GAME. I CAN DO THIS BETTER THAN
00:44:58THEY DID. AND, UH, AND HE WAS
00:45:01RIGHT. UM, AND, AND THAT THERE WAS A MOMENT WHERE MAYBE NOT
00:45:05MOST AMERICANS, BUT A SIGNIFICANT PART OF AMERICA WAS LIKE, YOU KNOW WHAT? WE'RE TIRED OF THIS. JUST THROW A BRICK
00:45:08THROUGH THE WINDOW. LET'S GO. UM, AND I THINK THAT'S CHANGING.
00:45:12I THINK THAT PEOPLE ARE, UH,
00:45:14PEOPLE ARE TIRED. THERE'S A, YOU KNOW, WE CALL THEM THE SILENT
00:45:18MAJORITY. WE NOW REFER TO THEM AS THE EXHAUSTED MAJORITY OUT
00:45:22THERE WHO DESPERATELY WANT SOMETHING DIFFERENT. AND SO I
00:45:26THINK 28 YOU MIGHT SEE IT, I REALLY DO. I THINK YOU'RE GOING
00:45:28TO HAVE SOME PEOPLE OUT THERE
00:45:31WHO, WHO RUN, WHO RUN ON A, UM,
00:45:35ON THE CONCEPT OF, UH, OF THAT.
00:45:38WE'RE ALL AMERICANS THAT WE, UH, THAT WE'RE BETTER THAN THE
00:45:42POLITICS OF THE LAST 10 TO 20
00:45:43YEARS. AND, UH, AND, AND YOU'LL, YOU'LL SEE PEOPLE RALLY TO
00:45:47THEIR, THEIR CAUSE. >> WELL, I DO WANT TO OPEN THINGS UP TO FOLKS IN THE ROOM.
00:45:50SO THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU MIGHT WANT TO ASK. AND AS YOU'RE
00:45:53THINKING, I'LL PUT ONE MORE QUESTION TO YOU OF THE VARIOUS,
00:45:57UH, OFF RAMPS YOU PROPOSE IN THE
00:46:00BOOK. IF YOU COULD, IF YOU COULD
00:46:04GET AMERICANS TO TAKE ONE ESPECIALLY SERIOUSLY, WHAT'S THE
00:46:07ONE THING YOU WANT PEOPLE TO WALK AWAY WITH AND TRY TO DO IN
00:46:10THEIR LIVES AS CITIZENS AND THEIR FAMILIES AND THEIR COMMUNITIES?
00:46:14>> YEAH. WELL, I MEAN, IF I COULD WAVE A MAGIC WAND, THE
00:46:17SOCIAL MEDIA ONE WOULD BE THE
00:46:19ONE. UM, BUT SINCE WE'VE
00:46:22COVERED THAT, I DO THINK THAT THE, UH, THE SERVICE PIECE IS A
00:46:26BIG ONE. I'VE OFTEN SAID, IF I COULD CHANGE ONE THING ABOUT OUR
00:46:30COUNTRY TODAY, IT WOULD BE TO IMPLEMENT A NATIONAL SERVICE
00:46:33REQUIREMENT. I JUST BELIEVE THAT
00:46:35THAT SERVICE CHANGES US. IT
00:46:38CHANGES OUR HEARTS. IT, IT, IT
00:46:42GIVES US A ROOTEDNESS TOWARDS OUR COMMUNITY. UM, THE PEOPLE
00:46:46THAT WE SERVE WITH. IT'S REALLY HARD TO HATE UP CLOSE. IT'S,
00:46:50IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS THAT, THAT I THINK UTAH IS STILL
00:46:54DIFFERENT AND UNIQUE. WE LEAD
00:46:57THE NATION IN SERVICE AND VOLUNTEERISM EVERY YEAR, LEAD
00:47:00THE NATION IN CHARITABLE GIVING.
00:47:01EVERY YEAR. IT HELPS TO BUILD
00:47:06THOSE MUSCLES OF COMMUNITY UH, AND, UM, AND IT JUST, I DON'T
00:47:09KNOW, IT'S JUST, IT'S JUST GOOD FOR OUR SOULS AND THE, THE
00:47:13PLACES WHERE, WHERE THAT HAPPENS. WE'RE DOING MORE OF
00:47:15THAT NOW. BECAUSE AGAIN, THE INSTITUTIONS THAT HAVE
00:47:19TRADITIONALLY LED US TO SERVICE,
00:47:21UM, ARE, ARE FAILING OR, OR
00:47:24DISAPPEARING. UM, I DON'T KNOW. DO WE HAVE ANY ROTARIANS IN
00:47:28HERE? UM, PLEASE RAISE YOUR HANDS. MY ROTARIANS. DANG IT.
00:47:32ALL RIGHT. OKAY, GUYS. SEE, WE,
00:47:34UH, WE NEED MORE OF THAT. UM,
00:47:37BUT I, UH, WHETHER IT'S THE
00:47:41MILITARY, AGAIN, MILITARY, MUCH LESS POLARIZED PEOPLE HAVE
00:47:44SERVED IN THE MILITARY TOGETHER. THEY SEE EACH OTHER VERY
00:47:48DIFFERENTLY. YOU KNOW, I HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO SERVE AS A
00:47:50MISSIONARY FOR, FOR MY FAITH IN
00:47:54MEXICO FOR, FOR TWO YEARS, WHERE I LEARNED THE LANGUAGE, LEARNED THE CULTURE, MEET PEOPLE WHO ARE
00:47:58VERY DIFFERENT THAN US, COME BACK WITH A, WITH A, YOU KNOW, A
00:48:01DIFFERENT FEEL TOWARDS, TOWARDS
00:48:04PEOPLE WHO LOOK OR SOUND OR ACT
00:48:07DIFFERENTLY THAN, THAN I DO.
00:48:08THOSE TYPES OF EXPERIENCES, ESPECIALLY AT A FORMATIVE AGE,
00:48:12ARE VERY LIFE CHANGING. UM, WE HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF A FAILURE
00:48:16TO LAUNCH, NOT A LITTLE BIT, A LOT OF A FAILURE TO LAUNCH IN THIS, IN THIS COUNTRY. AND SO,
00:48:20SO WES MOORE IN MARYLAND, WE'RE
00:48:23DOING IT IN UTAH WHERE WE'RE,
00:48:24UM, WE'RE FUNDING NOW KIND OF
00:48:28GAP YEAR SERVICE OPPORTUNITIES FOR, FOR YOUNG PEOPLE IN
00:48:31BETWEEN, IN BETWEEN HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE, THESE COHORTS THAT
00:48:34GO OUT TOGETHER TO, TO SERVE WITH NON-PROFITS, WE PAY THEM
00:48:37HALF OF THEIR, THEIR WAGE, THE
00:48:39NONPROFIT PAYS THEM. THE OTHER
00:48:41HALF. AND IT'S AWESOME. I MEAN,
00:48:44THE RETURNS ON THIS HAVE BEEN
00:48:47INCREDIBLE. THESE KIDS COME OUT
00:48:48SO MUCH UH, SO MUCH MORE
00:48:52CONFIDENT. BUT, BUT ALSO SO MUCH
00:48:55MORE COMPASSIONATE TOWARDS THEIR, THEIR FELLOW HUMANS.
00:48:58WE'VE GOT, WE'VE GOT DSA
00:49:02PEOPLE SERVING WITH MAGA PEOPLE AND THEY LOVE EACH OTHER. AND
00:49:05THEY REALIZE THAT THERE'S MORE TO US THAN, THAN JUST OUR
00:49:08POLITICAL IDENTITY.
00:49:10>> LET'S TAKE SOME QUESTIONS, SEE WHAT FOLKS IN THE ROOM
00:49:13MIGHT, UH, LET'S START RIGHT
00:49:18BACK THERE. >> UM, THANK YOU, GOVERNOR
00:49:19JONATHAN RAUCH OF BROOKINGS AND
00:49:24UM, LAST NIGHT, PRESIDENT DALLIN OAKS OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS
00:49:28CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS MADE THE JOURNEY TO WASHINGTON TO
00:49:31GIVE A MAJOR SPEECH IN NATIONAL CATHEDRAL. I THINK YOU WERE
00:49:35PROBABLY THERE, IN WHICH HE CALLED FOR CONCILIATION AS BOTH
00:49:39A CIVIC AND CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLE,
00:49:41NOT THE DIRECTION THAT A LOT OF WHITE EVANGELICALS HAVE BEEN
00:49:44GOING AT THE MOMENT. I WONDER IF
00:49:46YOU HAVE AN ASSESSMENT OF THE SPEECH AND ITS IMPORTANCE.
00:49:49>> YEAH, YEAH. THANK YOU. SO,
00:49:52UH, DALLIN OAKS IS THE PRESIDENT OF MY FAITH, THE CHURCH OF JESUS
00:49:55CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS. UM,
00:49:56THE, UH, THE HEAD OF A WORLDWIDE
00:49:5918 MILLION MEMBER ORGANIZATION, FAITH. AND, UH, I MEAN, I
00:50:03THOUGHT IT WAS INSTRUCTIVE THAT, YOU KNOW, THE FIRST PARAGRAPH HE
00:50:07QUOTED. YUVAL SO, UM, SO THAT, THAT TELLS YOU, TELLS YOU A
00:50:10LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW I FELT
00:50:12ABOUT THE SPEECH. UM, I THOUGHT IT WAS, IT WAS A MASTER CLASS.
00:50:16FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DON'T KNOW,
00:50:17HE'S 94 YEARS OLD. UH, AND IF
00:50:21ANYBODY IS QUALIFIED TO GIVE THAT SPEECH, I THINK IT'S HIM,
00:50:24NOT BECAUSE OF HIS POSITION AS A FAITH LEADER, ALTHOUGH I THINK
00:50:26THAT THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT. UH, BUT HE, UH, HE WAS A LAW
00:50:30PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO. HE WAS THE PRESIDENT OF
00:50:33BRIGHAM YOUNG UNIVERSITY. HE
00:50:35SERVED ON THE UTAH SUPREME COURT
00:50:38FOR SEVERAL YEARS. HE IS THOUGHT
00:50:40DEEPLY AND WRITTEN ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION FOR, UH, FOR 70
00:50:44YEARS. UH, AND, AND THEN HAS
00:50:48BEEN THE, HE HAS BEEN A MEMBER OF THE QUORUM OF THE 12 APOSTLES
00:50:51IN OUR CHURCH FOR, UH, FOR 40
00:50:54YEARS. AND, UH, AND NOW IS, IS THE, THE LEADER OF THAT FAITH.
00:50:58AND I THINK IT SHOULD BE REQUIRED READING FOR, UH, FOR
00:51:01EVERYONE IN THE, IN THE COUNTRY. I THOUGHT IT WAS A MASTER CLASS
00:51:05ON, UH, ON, NOT JUST ON
00:51:08CIVILITY, BUT ON THE PURPOSE OF THE CONSTITUTION AND THE FRAMERS
00:51:12VIEW OF THE CONSTITUTION AND HOW IT'S ACTUALLY SUPPOSED TO WORK.
00:51:16AND WHAT HAPPENS WHEN, UH, CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS OF
00:51:19DIFFERENT GROUPS KIND OF BUTT UP AGAINST EACH OTHER AND HOW WE,
00:51:22AND HOW WE HAVE TO, HOW WE HAVE
00:51:25TO ACT BOTH AS AMERICANS IN A CIVIC DUTY. AGAIN, MAKING THE
00:51:28CASE THAT THE CONSTITUTION
00:51:30COMPELS US TO COMPROMISE AND TO
00:51:32WORK TOGETHER. AND OUR CHRISTIAN
00:51:35FAITH ALSO COMPELS US TO DO THE,
00:51:37TO DO THE SAME WAY. UH, IF YOU HAVEN'T, I WOULD, UH, I WOULD
00:51:41ENCOURAGE YOU TO READ ANOTHER WONDERFUL BOOK BY AN ESTEEMED
00:51:45AUTHOR NAMED JONATHAN RAUCH, WHO I THINK IS HERE WITH US, MAY
00:51:48HAVE JUST ASKED THAT QUESTION. IT'S CALLED CROSS PURPOSES, I
00:51:52BELIEVE. DID I GET THAT RIGHT? IT'S BEEN A YEAR AND A HALF
00:51:55SINCE I READ IT. CROSS PURPOSES.
00:51:58IT'S A IT'S A FASCINATING BOOK
00:52:00ON, ON THE INTERPLAY OF, UH, OF,
00:52:05OF FAITH AND, AND OUR CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY AS
00:52:07AMERICANS. AND SO THANK, THANK YOU FOR BRINGING IT UP. I WAS
00:52:11GRATEFUL THAT HE SAID IT. THERE ARE THINGS THAT HE HAD SAID BEFORE, BUT NEVER AS THE
00:52:15PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH. SO HEARING IT FROM HIM, UH, WILL,
00:52:18WILL BE GREAT FOR NOT JUST THE MEMBERS OF MY FAITH, BUT I HOPE
00:52:21THE MEMBERS OF EVERY FAITH. UM. >> LET'S TAKE ANOTHER QUESTION
00:52:24IN THE BACK
00:52:28>> WHAT DO YOU THINK OF RANKED
00:52:31CHOICE VOTING AND OPEN PRIMARIES
00:52:34AS MEANS TO BRING US TOGETHER AND REDUCE THE EXTREMISM?
00:52:36>> YEAH, YEAH. THANK YOU. SO,
00:52:38WOW. THERE. I MENTIONED JUST
00:52:42BRIEFLY THAT THERE ARE STRUCTURAL ISSUES WITH THE WAY THAT WE CHOOSE OUR CANDIDATES. I
00:52:46THINK THAT ANYTHING THAT ENCOURAGES MORE PARTICIPATION IS
00:52:49GENERALLY A POSITIVE. UM, THE, I
00:52:54DO HAVE SOME CONCERNS FOR SURE.
00:52:57THE ALASKA MODEL, FOR EXAMPLE, IS ONE THAT GETS POINTED TO A
00:53:01LOT. AND WHILE THE ALASKA MODEL,
00:53:04FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DON'T
00:53:06KNOW, BASICALLY AN OPEN KIND OF JUNGLE PRIMARY THAN THE TOP. SO
00:53:10EVERYBODY VOTES THE TOP FOUR, THEN GO INTO THE GENERAL
00:53:14ELECTION, AND THEN YOU USE RANKED CHOICE VOTING, UH, TO, TO
00:53:17KIND OF LIST YOUR ORDER OF
00:53:19CANDIDATES. UM, THERE, UH, IT'S
00:53:23ONE OF THOSE THAT LOOKS REALLY
00:53:25GREAT ON PAPER. AND, AND THEN IN PRACTICE, IT HAS BEEN PRETTY
00:53:28CLUNKY. IT SOMETIMES TAKES THEM
00:53:30WEEKS TO FIGURE OUT WHO MADE IT,
00:53:34WHO MOVED ON. AND THERE IT'S,
00:53:38THERE WERE 6 OR 7 STATES WHERE THEY TRIED TO EXPAND IT TO
00:53:40MAINE. IT GOT EXPANDED TO MAINE
00:53:42AT SOME LEVEL, BUT IT FAILED IN
00:53:45ALL THE OTHER STATES WHERE THEY TRIED TO BRING IT. SO, UM,
00:53:48WHILE, YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN VERY CURIOUS ABOUT IT, I JUST DON'T
00:53:52SEE ANY SCENARIO WHERE THAT GETS
00:53:54MOVED FORWARD. UM, THE, WE'VE,
00:53:59WE'VE TRIED RANKED CHOICE VOTING AT THE, AT THE LOCAL LEVEL IN, IN SOME CITY COUNCIL
00:54:02RACES. AND IT SEEMS TO HAVE WORKED. ONE OF THE UPSIDES OF
00:54:06RANKED CHOICE VOTING IS THAT IT TENDS TO, IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE NUMBER ONE ON SOMEBODY'S
00:54:10LIST, YOU STILL WANT TO BE
00:54:12NUMBER TWO. UH, AND, AND SO YOU
00:54:16TEND TO TREAT YOUR OPPONENTS WITH A LITTLE MORE DIGNITY AND RESPECT. BECAUSE IF YOU'RE JUST
00:54:19TEARING DOWN NUMBER ONE, THEN THAT MAKES ME DISLIKE YOU. I'M
00:54:22GOING TO PUT YOU AT THE BOTTOM OF MY LIST OR NOT RANK YOU AT
00:54:24ALL. RIGHT? AND SO THERE IS SOME EVIDENCE THAT, UH, THAT, THAT
00:54:28WOULD PUSH US TOWARDS, TO,
00:54:31TOWARDS A, UH, MAYBE A HEALTHIER
00:54:34DIALOG IN THOSE CAMPAIGNS. AND
00:54:35SO THAT'S, THAT'S SOMETHING
00:54:39I'M CERTAINLY CURIOUS ABOUT AND INTERESTED TO SEE MORE OF THE RESEARCH TO SEE IF THAT'S
00:54:41ACTUALLY THE CASE. UH, BUT, BUT
00:54:43THERE, I THINK THAT CERTAINLY
00:54:47THE MORE PEOPLE WE GET TO, UH, TO, TO PARTICIPATE IN THE
00:54:51PRIMARY PROCESS, UH, THAT, THAT,
00:54:52THAT TENDS TO LEAD TO, TO
00:54:56HEALTHIER OUTCOMES. NOW, THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE THAT WOULD ARGUE
00:54:58THAT, THAT WE, UH, THAT, THAT
00:55:02PRIMARIES ARE THE PROBLEM AND
00:55:03THAT OPEN PRIMARIES ARE, ARE,
00:55:07ARE MAYBE NOT BETTER. YOU CAN I
00:55:08GIVE YOU THE FLOOR. I THINK WE SHOULD.
00:55:11>> UH, BRIEFLY, I DO, I DON'T THINK PRIMARIES CAUSED THIS
00:55:15PROBLEM, BUT I DON'T THINK THERE'S A WAY TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM WE HAVE WITHOUT CHANGES
00:55:18TO THE WAYS PARTIES CHOOSE CANDIDATES UM, AND, YOU KNOW,
00:55:22LIKE YOU, I WOULD SAY THE FACT THAT OUR SYSTEM IS SO
00:55:25DECENTRALIZED GIVES US AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXPERIMENT WITH
00:55:29DIFFERENT MODES OF CANDIDATE SELECTION. AND I THINK THE STATE PARTIES SHOULD BE MUCH MORE INTO
00:55:33EXPERIMENTING THAN THEY ARE. THE PRIMARIES COST THEM. THEY
00:55:37CONSTANTLY PUT BOTH PARTIES IN THE POSITION OF GETTING CANDIDATES TO GENERAL ELECTION
00:55:41THAT ARE NOT ATTRACTIVE TO THE GENERAL ELECTORATE, AND THEY SHOULD SEE THAT AS A FAILURE. I
00:55:45THINK OF THAT AS A MARKET FAILURE TO. LET'S TAKE ONE MORE
00:55:49QUESTION. >> THAT WAS A VERY NICE WAY OF SAYING, LET'S GO BACK TO SMOKE
00:55:52FILLED ROOMS. WELL. >> WE PROBABLY CAN'T DO THAT.
00:55:55BUT WERE THEY BETTER? >> YEAH.
00:55:58>> LET'S TAKE ONE MORE QUESTION IN THE BACK.
00:56:01>> THANK APPRECIATE IT. YOU TALKED A LOT ABOUT SEVERAL TIMES
00:56:05YOUR FAITH, AND RECENTLY, SOME
00:56:09OF THE POLITICIANS YOU DESCRIBED OF TALKING A LOT AND NOT SOLVING
00:56:13THINGS ARE BRINGING UP FAITH
00:56:14ALMOST AS A DIVISION. WE HAD THE BIG, UH, YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR
00:56:18CHRISTIAN FAITH. I'M A MAN OF DEEP FAITH, BUT I AM JEWISH. HOW
00:56:22DO YOU ADDRESS THE MINORITY
00:56:24RELIGIONS IN THIS COUNTRY? WHEN POLITICIANS TALK ABOUT THIS
00:56:28BEING A CHRISTIAN NATION AND
00:56:31VERY CENTRALIZED PROGRAMS ON THE
00:56:35MALL, BEING BASED ON CHRISTIANITY AND NOT INCLUSIVE
00:56:38OF THE OTHER RELIGIONS IN THIS COUNTRY.
00:56:40>> YEAH, YEAH. THANK YOU. AND THANKS FOR, FOR, FOR SERVING AS
00:56:44A FIRST RESPONDER. UM, SO, SO I
00:56:48FEEL VERY PASSIONATE ABOUT THIS. I HAVE TALKED ABOUT MY FAITH. I'VE TALKED ABOUT MY CHRISTIAN
00:56:52FAITH. UM, THERE ARE A LOT OF CHRISTIANS IN THIS COUNTRY THAT
00:56:56DON'T THINK MY FAITH IS CHRISTIAN. UH, AND, AND SO I
00:56:59KNOW A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A MINORITY FAITH.
00:57:02UH, I WRITE ABOUT, UM, YOU KNOW,
00:57:04IN THE 1840s, MY GREAT, GREAT,
00:57:08GREAT GRANDPARENTS HAD THEIR HOUSE BURNED DOWN, UH, BECAUSE
00:57:11OF THEIR FAITH. AND, UH, THE MOB SHOWED UP AT THEIR HOUSE IN, UH,
00:57:15IN ILLINOIS. AND, UH, AND THEY,
00:57:20UH, THEY, THEY WERE NOT WELCOME THERE. AND SO THEY, THEY LOST
00:57:24EVERYTHING. THEY, UH, THEY LOADED THEIR KIDS IN A WAGON.
00:57:27AND, UH, THEY MADE A VERY
00:57:29DANGEROUS TREK. IN FACT, ALL MY
00:57:33ANCESTORS MADE THAT TREK ACROSS THE UNITED STATES TO A PLACE
00:57:36WHERE, UH, PEOPLE SAID THAT YOU COULD NOT INHABIT, THAT YOU
00:57:38COULD NOT, UH, THERE WAS A,
00:57:41THERE WAS A, AN EXPLORER OUT THERE WHO SAID HE WOULD PAY $1,000 FOR THE FIRST BUSHEL OF
00:57:45CORN THAT WAS GROWN IN THE SALT LAKE VALLEY, BECAUSE EVERYBODY
00:57:48THAT WAS HEADING WEST WENT TO CALIFORNIA OR OREGON. NOBODY
00:57:51WANTED TO BE THERE. AND, UH, AND
00:57:54SO THEY WENT TO THE ONE PLACE
00:57:56WHERE, WHERE THEY WOULD BE LEFT
00:57:59ALONE BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT AND
00:58:03THE CONSTITUTION AND THE FIRST AMENDMENT THAT GUARANTEED THEM
00:58:06THE RIGHT TO PRACTICE THEIR
00:58:08RELIGION, UH, HAD FAILED THEM.
00:58:12SO THEY ACTUALLY LEFT THE UNITED STATES. IT WAS THEN CONSIDERED
00:58:15MEXICAN TERRITORY. AND MY
00:58:18ORVILLE SUTHERLAND COX, MY GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER, HE WAS
00:58:21A CRAFTSMAN. HE WAS A BLACKSMITH. HE GETS THERE INTO THE VALLEY. SOME OF THE FIRST
00:58:25THERE, AND HE GETS SENT UP INTO
00:58:28THE, INTO THE MOUNTAINS, TO, TO, TO, UH, TO CUT DOWN SOME TREES,
00:58:31TO BUILD HOUSES. AND HE GETS LOST IN HIS THOUGHTS WHILE HE'S
00:58:35UP THERE. THAT'S WHERE I GET MY,
00:58:37UH, MY FOCUS FROM. UH, AND HE,
00:58:40HE SEES THIS BEAUTIFUL SPECIMEN
00:58:43OF PINE TREE. HE CUTS IT DOWN, HE DRAGS IT BACK TO THE TOWN
00:58:46SQUARE. HE, UH CLEANS IT UP. HE
00:58:50STANDS IT UP, AND HE RAISES THE
00:58:51FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF
00:58:56AMERICA, THE COUNTRY THAT HAD FAILED THEM, THE COUNTRY THAT
00:58:59DIDN'T WANT THEM, THE COUNTRY THAT HAD LEFT THEM BEHIND. AND
00:59:02IT WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY, VERY EASY FOR THEM TO HATE THAT
00:59:06COUNTRY. UH, TO, UH, TO CURSE
00:59:10THAT COUNTRY. AND YET HE DIDN'T, BECAUSE HE STILL BELIEVED, AND
00:59:14THEY STILL BELIEVED IN THE IDEALS THAT THIS COUNTRY
00:59:17ESPOUSED. WE HAVE A HISTORY OF
00:59:19SOME PRETTY BAD DECISIONS AS A COUNTRY, BUT THAT DOES NOT
00:59:23DEFINE WHO WE ARE AS A COUNTRY. WE HAVE THESE IDEALS THAT WE
00:59:26BELIEVE IN, INCLUDING THE FIRST
00:59:28AMENDMENT. NOW, THAT DEBATE THAT
00:59:31THAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO, THAT
00:59:33DEBATE HAS WAS TRIED WITH THE
00:59:35FOUNDERS, AND THEY LOST. UH, WE
00:59:40DECIDED AS A NATION, AS A
00:59:42MULTICULTURAL AND MULTI-FAITH, A
00:59:45PLURALISTIC NATION, THAT IN MULTIPLE PLACES IN THE CONSTITUTION, THAT WE WERE NOT
00:59:48GOING TO HAVE AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION, THE GOVERNMENT WAS GOING TO STAY OUT OF RELIGION,
00:59:52AND THAT WE WERE GOING TO PROTECT THE RELIGIOUS RIGHTS OF
00:59:55EVERYONE IN THIS COUNTRY. THAT IS WHO WE ARE. THAT IS STILL WHO
00:59:58WE ARE. THAT IS THE MOST AMERICAN THING AMONG US. AND THE
01:00:02PEOPLE WHO WOULD SAY THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE KIND OF AMERICAN,
01:00:06ONE KIND OF HERITAGE, ONE KIND
01:00:09OF FAITH. UM, THEY'RE JUST
01:00:11WRONG. AND THEY WILL ALWAYS BE
01:00:13WRONG. AND, UH, AND IT REQUIRES
01:00:16PEOPLE OF GOOD FAITH, OF ALL
01:00:18FAITHS TO STAND UP FOR OUR
01:00:21MINORITY FAITHS, WHOEVER THEY ARE, WHEREVER THEY ARE. AND, UH,
01:00:25I WILL JUST TELL YOU THAT I MAY DISAGREE WITH YOU, THAT MY FAITH
01:00:28MAY BE VERY DIFFERENTLY, DIFFERENT THAN YOURS. AND I WILL
01:00:32DIE FOR YOUR RIGHT TO, TO PRACTICE THAT FAITH, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT AMERICA IS ALL ABOUT. SO
01:00:36>> [APPLAUSE] >> THANK YOU, SIR. >> [APPLAUSE] >> THANK.
01:00:40>> [APPLAUSE]
01:00:44>> THAT SEEMS LIKE A VERY FINE PLACE TO END. THE BOOK IS OFF
01:00:46RAMP. HOW TO BE A PEACEMAKER IN AN AGE OF CONTEMPT. GOVERNOR SPENCER COX, THANK YOU VERY
01:00:50>> [APPLAUSE] >> MUCH. >> [APPLAUSE] >> THANK YOU EVERYONE. >> [APPLAUSE] >> THANK YOU ALL.
01:00:54>> [APPLAUSE]