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00:00:00Polish expert on international policy,
00:00:03extraordinary and plenipotentiary ambassador of the Republic of Poland to Ukraine in
00:00:062019-23 Bartosz
00:00:09Cichocki. Welcome, dear Mr. Ambassador Cichocki, to our
00:00:12broadcast. In his Valdai speech, Putin did not
00:00:16just confirm that Russia would be ready to resort to
00:00:20increasing military escalation, he very specifically
00:00:23hinted at possible directions
00:00:26and at possible use, including
00:00:29nuclear weapons. Previously, Putin did not allow
00:00:32himself similar threats, well, and now we have seen
00:00:36an outright military provocation, although it is not the highest level,
00:00:40but against a NATO member state,
00:00:43against Latvia, a provocation with
00:00:47an attempt to capture
00:00:49a border infrastructure
00:00:53facility, that is, further
00:00:56actions with so-called refugees, well, controlled refugees,
00:01:00whom Russian-Belarusian special services have used
00:01:03not once, including against Poland,
00:01:07what scenarios do you currently feel, and
00:01:11how do you think, are these events from different
00:01:14planes, or does all this fit into what
00:01:18Putin outlined in his Valdai speech? Well, we
00:01:20see, and even before
00:01:23Valdai, that Russia is intensifying
00:01:26shelling of Kyiv,
00:01:29they... somehow compensate for their defeats or
00:01:33lack of success at the front, there
00:01:37Russia is losing territory, uh,
00:01:40focusing on shelling Kyiv,
00:01:43thinking, perhaps, that, well, some, I
00:01:47don't know, public
00:01:50attitudes in Ukraine will change, I don't, I
00:01:53don't quite understand what the goal is, uh, to destroy
00:01:57Kyiv, I don't think that...
00:02:00from
00:02:03from, well, the situation
00:02:07in Kyiv determines the further
00:02:09defense of Ukrainians,
00:02:13at the same time, perhaps this is not a completely new
00:02:16phenomenon, but the scale, the quality
00:02:20is different,
00:02:23terrorist attacks are taking place,
00:02:27hybrid attacks on infrastructure on... the territories
00:02:30of NATO states, Lavrov
00:02:33openly said that everyone who
00:02:37produces something
00:02:40for the Armed Forces of Ukraine, they, well,
00:02:43must understand that they can become targets
00:02:47of attacks, that is, there was a situation in Latvia, where some
00:02:51components for drones, it seems,
00:02:53were produced, there was a situation in Poland,
00:02:56where, where an electronics facility
00:03:00was burned down, a situation with the Staring hub in
00:03:04Slovakia, there were
00:03:06explosions on the railway in Poland,
00:03:10that is, the conflict is spreading,
00:03:14but is it a result
00:03:18of a feeling of superiority or weakness? That is the
00:03:22question, it seems to me, the Russians
00:03:25were for them
00:03:28- they are concerned,
00:03:32for example, why Minister Sikorski met with the Foreign Minister
00:03:35of Belarus in New York on the sidelines
00:03:39of this UN
00:03:42assembly, there are some diplomatic
00:03:45maneuvers by the US in Belarus and Poland in Belarus, it seems
00:03:49to me, for some structures in Russia, this
00:03:53is very unhelpful, perhaps what you mentioned
00:03:56about Latvia and some invasion.
00:04:00Perhaps this is a reaction, this is, this is such a message
00:04:04to Lukashenko,
00:04:08well, this, but anyway, this is a serious matter, the
00:04:11closer winter gets, the fewer reasons Russians have
00:04:15to sit down at the negotiating table, that is clear
00:04:19to everyone, this is a huge challenge for all
00:04:22of us, if I do not possess,
00:04:25you know, information on what Russians
00:04:29call... the operation concerning
00:04:32Kyiv against Kyivans, well, but it could
00:04:35conditionally be called Operation Exodus. Operation
00:04:38Exodus - this is a biblical level, yes,
00:04:42this is a biblical level, that is, they would like to make
00:04:46our capital unsuitable for
00:04:49functioning. At the same time, recently I
00:04:53spoke with the former commander of NATO forces
00:04:56on the European continent during the Yugoslav
00:05:00wars, General Wesley Clark, well,
00:05:03and according to his assumptions, according
00:05:06to his assessment, attacks on Kyiv and
00:05:09the attempt to paralyze Kyiv, this is only... part
00:05:13of the Kremlin's military plan for 2026-2027,
00:05:17and actually, the attempt
00:05:21by the Russians to destroy all infrastructure
00:05:24that ensures not only vital activity, but also the functioning
00:05:28of Kyiv as a capital city, yes, well, this will
00:05:31fit into further destabilizing,
00:05:34destructive steps, well, and now information has been received
00:05:37regarding the possible withdrawal of certain
00:05:40embassies of countries, including
00:05:44NATO members. At one time, during
00:05:47the full-scale invasion, you worked in Kyiv, and worked
00:05:51in Kyiv, well, throughout your entire term, without
00:05:54leaving. How, in your opinion, can similar
00:05:58things happen
00:06:01now, that is, is it
00:06:05about possibly, I don't know, leaving part
00:06:08of the diplomatic contingent, or how,
00:06:11or would everyone... work in their places, because this is also about
00:06:15symbols, yes, this is important, this is important for
00:06:18society, I remember 2022, then,
00:06:21well, every hour I
00:06:25received questions about whether we were staying or
00:06:29not staying, it is clear that civilians look at
00:06:33diplomats as those who have, well, more
00:06:36information, that is, they are guided by whether embassies
00:06:39are leaving or not leaving, it seemed to me... but the situation
00:06:43is serious, here you cannot only think about symbols,
00:06:46you also need to think about the security and
00:06:49effectiveness of diplomatic personnel, if in
00:06:52Kyiv there will be no possibility to continue
00:06:56work, for example, there will be no water or
00:06:59sewage, or something like that happens, well then
00:07:03we need to continue working in some other
00:07:06way, I think staff reduction,
00:07:09this is this is... well, there
00:07:13are no options, it will happen, but I
00:07:16look at the statements of ambassadors,
00:07:20well, at least the EU, they are aimed at staying,
00:07:23and this support is important,
00:07:26I think, is the goal, I
00:07:30100% agree with you, this is the goal of the Russians to make
00:07:33Kyiv, well, to make provoke an exodus,
00:07:37or it seems to me, they very
00:07:40mistakenly think that if Kyiv falls, then
00:07:43Ukrainians, well, somehow, I
00:07:45don't know, will be less inclined
00:07:49to defend themselves, will support, will put pressure
00:07:52on President Zelensky to capitulate, it seems to me,
00:07:55this will be completely the opposite, it seems to me, the Russians
00:07:59in response to their barbaric attacks,
00:08:02they will consolidate
00:08:05international support for Ukraine, I think, and
00:08:09their allies, such as China, do not
00:08:13like what is happening in Kyiv now, civilian
00:08:16casualties, destruction of medical
00:08:20facilities, schools, well, this
00:08:23is not beneficial to Russia's
00:08:27allies, especially since we see that some
00:08:30technological innovation
00:08:34has occurred, and your air defense is already shooting down reactive
00:08:38drones, that is, it is clear that there will be a reaction to their action.
00:08:41And I am not sure if the Russians will achieve
00:08:45their goal, it's still October,
00:08:48there is still some time until winter, it seems
00:08:50to me, the Armed Forces of Ukraine and
00:08:54air defense, air defense
00:08:58will find a way to these, to this new
00:09:02technology, new new new
00:09:04quality of Russian attacks,
00:09:08uh, but, but, but society
00:09:11will, of course. it will be difficult
00:09:14and we need what the West can do, I did not understand, the fifth
00:09:17or sixth year of the war,
00:09:21our customs services, I'm not even talking about
00:09:25intelligence, customs sees
00:09:28that thousands of components are going somewhere,
00:09:32someone orders in the Netherlands, Sweden,
00:09:35Great Britain, and so on, all this equipment that
00:09:38then ends up in these garages, and you
00:09:41find it. from your territory, I
00:09:44understand that formally,
00:09:47no, this is not under sanctions, trade
00:09:50in such, such, such equipment, but it is clear to
00:09:54everyone where, who orders this, if
00:09:57it ends up in a factory there of some optoelectronics, an order for
00:10:00tens of thousands, who orders this, well, not me
00:10:04with you, there should be more reactions
00:10:07and waiting for these frozen assets of Russia is one
00:10:11thing, and
00:10:13reacting to what is happening and
00:10:16improving, well, the effectiveness of Russia's
00:10:19isolation, this
00:10:22is what should happen, and
00:10:25a number of problems, yes, that are embedded, in particular,
00:10:29in Russia's current actions, and in particular, when we talk about
00:10:32a possible so-called Exodus operation, that is, it is not only directed against
00:10:36Ukraine, it is also directed against our partners, in this way
00:10:40the Russians want to frighten with new
00:10:42waves of refugees from Ukraine, yes,
00:10:46and few will be able to refuse people,
00:10:50well, in particular, when we talk about winter, but at the same time, there are
00:10:54still such... characteristic moments, the Russians are most likely
00:10:57planning to destroy border
00:11:00infrastructure on the Ukrainian side,
00:11:03that is, repeatedly the Russians have struck our
00:11:07border posts, yes, and here it is about customs
00:11:11clearance and border clearance, an initiative even
00:11:14appeared, I don't know how realistic it is, about
00:11:18transferring Ukrainian border posts to
00:11:21the territory of partner states,
00:11:24such as Poland. Slovakia, possibly Romania, at the same time, if
00:11:27we talk about the seriousness of Russian intentions, well,
00:11:30the Russians several times
00:11:34barbarically struck the territory of Moldova, and here
00:11:37we return again to the possible casus
00:11:41of Lavrov, that is, that the Russians will strike not only neutral
00:11:44Moldova, they can also strike the territory
00:11:47of Poland or the territory of Lithuania or
00:11:51Latvia, yes, with reactive Shaheds. I don't know the
00:11:55state of the air defense system
00:11:58of the Euro-Atlantic community in the east, yes, but they can
00:12:01do it and after that they will release Lavrov, Lavrov will say,
00:12:05or Maria Zakharova, and they will just offer so-called
00:12:09apologies, but if we talk about
00:12:12such things, in your opinion, what are our prospects
00:12:16for, well, at least preventing
00:12:19them, we need to accelerate our
00:12:22modernization of our air
00:12:25defense, it, unfortunately, is not able
00:12:28now to protect our space
00:12:31from, well, such
00:12:35systems as drones that fly
00:12:38at a low level or medium level,
00:12:41uh, but, I think, we won't
00:12:45make it until winter, unfortunately, unfortunately,
00:12:48on the one hand, the leaders
00:12:51of Poland and the government, and the opposition say that...
00:12:55peace already, peace is
00:12:57behind us, we are not yet, we are not yet in a state
00:13:01of war, but no longer in a state of peace, but these are only verbal
00:13:05statements, from a legislative, from
00:13:08a legislative point of view, we, our
00:13:11defense industry, our army functions in
00:13:15conditions of peace, and this, this has direct
00:13:18consequences for procurement procedures, for decision-making
00:13:21procedures and so on and so forth, this needs to be changed.
00:13:25We need to find some kind of intermediary status between
00:13:28peace and war, that is one, two, we need
00:13:32to increase support for Ukraine, I don't
00:13:35think that,
00:13:37that,
00:13:40possible, I agree with you, there will be attacks,
00:13:43uh, perhaps, not hybrid, perhaps open
00:13:47attacks on NATO territory, their goal will be
00:13:50to undermine confidence in Article Five, in, well,
00:13:54in general, in... NATO, yes, the Russians will say, or not even
00:13:58they will say, but the public in Ukraine, in Poland will say,
00:14:01well, theoretically, we have NATO, NATO does not react,
00:14:05well, but I think, it's
00:14:08a bit too early to decide on World War Three,
00:14:11I think, the right answer would be to provide,
00:14:15to provide
00:14:18a new quality of support
00:14:22to Ukraine, to destroy Russia's potential
00:14:25with the hands of Ukrainians, excuse me, I know that
00:14:28I understand that this sounds cynical, and
00:14:32to increase pressure on Russia,
00:14:35we need to take into account the elections
00:14:39to the chambers in the USA, these Midterms, there
00:14:42perhaps, perhaps this will somehow
00:14:46politically influence this, well, this
00:14:49such ambivalent position of the USA, the USA, which
00:14:53on the one hand says that
00:14:57they will give the right to produce Patriots to Ukraine, and
00:15:01on the other hand,
00:15:05well, they send this Kushner and Vidkof to Moscow,
00:15:08and some such slightly in the spirit
00:15:12of Alaska gestures towards
00:15:16Russia, but let's see, this is a very important factor, elections
00:15:19in the USA, elections in Bulgaria here in
00:15:22November, in Germany... political changes,
00:15:26this, this, this is important,
00:15:29to accept in and we need, this,
00:15:32this is easy to say, we need to reverse the situation, it
00:15:36is Russia that must... worry about
00:15:40what it will receive in response to
00:15:42the violation of international law, and we should not
00:15:45think about what the Russians will do to us this winter or next
00:15:49winter, unfortunately, we, we are in some way,
00:15:53mentally we are passive, but we must be
00:15:57active, we must force the Russians, and this is what
00:16:00your missile forces, your drone
00:16:03units are doing, these hits on Russian
00:16:06territory. And we must follow
00:16:09your strategy and increase your
00:16:13capabilities, otherwise Russia will not
00:16:15stop.
00:16:17Well, I completely agree with you, but on the other hand,
00:16:20the Armed Forces of Ukraine have demonstrated that Russians
00:16:23can be beaten, they can be beaten on their own territory, when
00:16:27we talk about the destruction of their military logistics
00:16:31facilities, right? At the same time, the Russians, well, they
00:16:35are not afraid that they might be... treated
00:16:38as очередных escalators, so we are talking about
00:16:41increasing military aggression, well, and the signals
00:16:45we received from Slovakia are quite
00:16:48unpleasant, the signals we receive from Bulgaria are also quite
00:16:52alarming, in particular, Article Five
00:16:54of the Euro-Atlantic Treaty can be interpreted differently, at
00:16:58the discretion of one sovereign state or another, you are absolutely right
00:17:02to point out the ambivalent,
00:17:04unclear role of the United States. because
00:17:07Donald Trump gives one set of signals, then he gives other
00:17:11signals, but Putin gives very specific and clear signals in
00:17:15case of certain escalation
00:17:18moments in the area of Królewiec, or
00:17:21Königsberg, or Kaliningrad, he will be
00:17:24ready to use nuclear weapons,
00:17:28yes, and I don't know where
00:17:31the bluff and threats end, and where
00:17:35his paranoid
00:17:37delusions about preparing for World War Three begin, by the way, as I
00:17:41was once corrected by our American partners, well, the so-called
00:17:44good Americans, the good Americans said that in Putin's
00:17:48head, and this must be taken into account, World War Three is already
00:17:52ongoing, and his task, as he
00:17:56sets it for himself, is to achieve
00:17:59as many intermediate victories as possible, and
00:18:03that's how they think in the Kremlin now,
00:18:06Mr. Ambassador. What was good in the press
00:18:09was voiced, the story
00:18:12about this incident
00:18:15when 20 or more Russian drones flew into
00:18:19Poland, the US reacted very sharply,
00:18:22and it seems to me, after
00:18:26all, from Russia's side there
00:18:29are enough sane people in the leadership
00:18:32who understand that, well, Russia has no
00:18:35chances, and in China there are also. people who understand
00:18:38that, above a certain
00:18:41level of tension, well, Russia
00:18:45will not, will not, will not endure, and
00:18:48Russia is not, well, Russia has not been able to win
00:18:52for six years in the war
00:18:56with Ukraine, with all due respect, well, Ukraine, well, is not
00:18:59an equal, it seems to you, well, it was
00:19:03possible to think in 2022 that it is not
00:19:06an equal partner in the conflict,
00:19:10it turns out that Ukraine, with international
00:19:14support, withstands
00:19:17the pressure from Russia, and what to say about
00:19:21an open conflict between Russia and NATO, but
00:19:24Russia feels its weakness and this is an old
00:19:28strategy from pre-Soviet
00:19:30times, if you are
00:19:34pressured, you cannot show your
00:19:37weakness, you must, you must respond with
00:19:41escalation, and
00:19:43this is where this speech, this
00:19:47sentence about Kaliningrad and the threats of
00:19:50nuclear weapons come from, Putin understands that
00:19:54he is weak, he very well understands that your
00:19:57hits there on their
00:20:00fuel system, on tankers and so on, they
00:20:04would not be possible without NATO intelligence
00:20:07and NATO technology, this is what they are very, we, we, we, it is
00:20:11beneficial for all of us to say that Ukraine is hitting
00:20:15oil refineries in Russia, but
00:20:18in fact, these are
00:20:21joint, these are joint operations, and this
00:20:25causes fear from Russia's side, but Russia under
00:20:28fear can be very dangerous, very unpredictable, and
00:20:32we need, well, we need to understand that a difficult period
00:20:36awaits us, it will be very difficult, but we will endure and
00:20:40and and take a step forward
00:20:43in our cooperation and I think also some
00:20:46psychological limitations not to provide certain types.
00:20:50certain types of support to Ukraine and not
00:20:53to be limited
00:20:57by some red lines regarding
00:21:00Russia's isolation, that we will also overcome
00:21:04these our own
00:21:07limitations. Well, in Ukraine, we would very much like
00:21:10the Euro-Atlantic community, or at least those
00:21:14states that are not afraid of the Russian
00:21:17Federation and understand that next... in line could be
00:21:21them, that they would be ready to use their
00:21:24air defense capabilities, in particular,
00:21:27we are talking about aviation for neutralizing
00:21:30Russia's military targets in Ukrainian airspace,
00:21:34we understand that this is a problem,
00:21:37and there is no good answer yet, but
00:21:41sooner or later it may happen, and we need to
00:21:44prepare for this, well, I would like to ask you, do you
00:21:48see any progress, any movement in this direction, well, but at the same time
00:21:52there is also the problem of the Suwalki
00:21:55corridor, and the key story, for example, if we
00:21:59talk about the Baltic countries, yes, will all
00:22:02NATO members be ready to send their military
00:22:06contingents, contingents to support
00:22:09Estonian Narva,
00:22:12yes, and we understand how many hours of strategizing
00:22:15have been dedicated to such
00:22:19a case, well, but the main thing is
00:22:22political will, and Fico says that he is not ready
00:22:26to send Slovak military personnel outside
00:22:29Slovakia, and this, this is alarming, yes, but here
00:22:33the point is, I would not talk about fear or
00:22:35courage,
00:22:39leaders of EU states are elected in
00:22:42these states, Fico is elected
00:22:45by Slovaks, Tusk is elected by Poles,
00:22:49and... they, they, they
00:22:52understand the level of threat very well, this is a war against
00:22:56the West, against the post- post-
00:22:59Soviet international system,
00:23:03uh, the defense of the Baltic
00:23:06states from a technical point of view, a military point
00:23:09of view, it is very difficult, they do not have this strategic
00:23:13depth, their defense is actually international
00:23:16law, but, but look during.
00:23:29Canada, France, Germany, Poland, and so on and so forth, there will be this
00:23:32air policing, where our planes
00:23:35monitor their, their space,
00:23:39that is, I, I have no,
00:23:42no fears
00:23:44that, that Estonia will be left
00:23:48to its own devices, right?
00:23:51Yes, but, but, but the problem is, yes, that the Russians will conduct this operation
00:23:55below this level of war. And
00:23:58there will be discussions, is this already war, or not war. Thank
00:24:02you, Mr. Ambassador Cichocki, for this
00:24:05frank conversation, to our viewers, I want to remind you that now an expert on
00:24:09international policy, extraordinary
00:24:12and plenipotentiary ambassador of the Republic of Poland to Ukraine in
00:24:152019-23 was Bartosz
00:24:18Cichocki. Unfortunately, the airtime of our
00:24:21program has run out, thank you all for your attention, and of course,
00:24:25thank you to our today's experts for their masterful
00:24:28work, let me remind you, diplomat American Michael Carpenter and
00:24:32Polish diplomat Bartol Cichocki worked for you, take care of yourselves and your
00:24:35loved ones, see you on air.
00:24:51They are brave on the battlefield, fearless, and every day at
00:24:54the front they bring our country closer to victory, they
00:24:58are very brave, well, I'm just really amazed at what kind of
00:25:01women we have. Espreso TV channel presents Khrystyna Parubiy's
00:25:05author's project, Women in War, a Look into the Future.
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00:25:179:45 AM.
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00:26:54My dad is a defender of Ukraine. He is a soldier and now
00:26:58defends our Ukraine. My dad is a combat medic.
00:27:02He saves and treats wounded
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00:27:51A fundraiser has been opened for critically needed equipment for the soldiers
00:27:54of the 93rd separate mechanized brigade Kholodny
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00:28:27Yar.
00:28:35Extremely actively the enemy attacked
00:28:38today the capital, hit the
00:28:41building of the Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, scientists
00:28:44died. Well, and now about the current
00:28:48situation in our capital, with us on the line is the spokeswoman of the Kyiv
00:28:51City Military Administration,
00:28:54Kateryna Pop. Glory to Ukraine, Mrs. Kateryna.
00:28:57Glory. Well, I would ask you to summarize
00:29:01today's attacks. The enemy attacked the capital from
00:29:04the very morning. You have the floor.
00:29:08Today, damages were recorded in most districts of the capital.
00:29:11Currently, since the beginning of the day, 24
00:29:14injured people are known, among them three underage children.
00:29:18Six injured people are in medical institutions,
00:29:22they are provided with all necessary assistance, others
00:29:25are provided with assistance on the spot and treatment is provided
00:29:28on an outpatient basis. Regarding the liquidation, then...
00:29:33we again continue the alarm, again
00:29:36we are in the process
00:29:39of constant shelling and terror of the civilian
00:29:43population, literally during the last
00:29:46alarm, the consequences of the attack are known
00:29:49in the Obolonsky district in a non-residential building,
00:29:53today during the day, as you already know, the center of the capital
00:29:56suffered, also a damaged
00:29:59premises, office non-residential and warehouse
00:30:03premises in the Darnytskyi district, where a large area of ignition
00:30:07was, regarding the liquidation, then
00:30:10currently at the objects where significant damage
00:30:14occurred, pouring of structures and dismantling
00:30:17of debris are being carried out, rescuers continue to work at
00:30:20the locations, sincerely grateful to the rescuers,
00:30:24police units, patrol police, medics who promptly
00:30:27arrive at the scene, even in case of continued
00:30:31alarm and...
00:30:33save people's lives, today rescuers managed
00:30:37to save one resident who was
00:30:41on the upper floors in a damaged
00:30:44four-story building near the Dobrobut clinic, also the fire was localized,
00:30:47which spread to a residential building during the fire at the clinic in
00:30:51the center of the capital. Currently, all work
00:30:55continues, and I take into account.
00:30:58і зважаю.