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00:04:07Good day and welcome once again to the N1 television program, our
00:04:11Zagreb studio, welcome to a new day, we will now go to
00:04:14Germany where our colleague Srećko Matić from
00:04:18Deutsche Welle is waiting for us, who of course follows all the
00:04:22most interesting, most important events in Germany,
00:04:25recently it has been a spy scandal. Srećko, good morning and welcome
00:04:29to our program.
00:04:31Good morning Hrvoje, thank you for the invitation and warm greetings to your viewers.
00:04:35So, one of the biggest spy scandals in
00:04:38the last few decades, some would say, maybe even
00:04:42a century, but it's hard to say it's bigger than the one that
00:04:45led to the change of the German
00:04:49Chancellor, more than fifty
00:04:51years ago now, but again
00:04:54I repeat, one of the biggest spy scandals in
00:04:57Germany.
00:05:00The man who for seven years led the BND, the most important,
00:05:03the most significant German
00:05:07recent incident in Leipzig, at intelligence service, was arrested and accused of high treason, what
00:05:10happened, what is it about? Where do all the branches of this
00:05:14story lead?
00:05:17Well, the branches lead in various directions, as far as can be judged, this is still, of course, not
00:05:21officially confirmed because the investigation is still ongoing,
00:05:24but there are certain indications that the
00:05:27branches are spreading to different countries,
00:05:31some countries that are officially perceived here in Germany
00:05:34by the German executive power as, among
00:05:37other things, a competitor, a rival, and even
00:05:41a system opponent country, for example, like
00:05:44China or Azerbaijan, these are two potential
00:05:47principals, i.e., intelligence services or bodies from
00:05:51those countries who, according to indications,
00:05:54were likely the principals of August Hanning in obtaining
00:05:58certain information, preparing certain analyses, a man who
00:06:02from 1998 to 2005 was at the head of the BND,
00:06:05the Bundesnachrichtendienst, the most important German foreign intelligence service, meaning a service
00:06:09that operates abroad, not within Germany.
00:06:12Apparently, from what it seems, in a period
00:06:16of at least 10, 12 years, he obtained more than
00:06:19200 documents from the
00:06:22BND marked confidential, highly confidential
00:06:25or state secret in cooperation
00:06:28with his companion Manfred D, and the
00:06:32information he obtained in this way, which was for internal
00:06:35use, apparently, he used as
00:06:38a private individual, he worked as a private individual and produced these analyses.
00:06:42as a private individual for his own account and apparently
00:06:45sold them to third
00:06:47countries.
00:06:50Uh, one of the things that also made
00:06:54its way to the public, which is perhaps an additional reason for concern when it comes to
00:06:58German institutions, is
00:07:00that his activity and this whole story
00:07:04were discovered by chance as part of another investigation, not because
00:07:07someone specifically went after
00:07:10the former head of the BND.
00:07:14It really is these days, one has the feeling of being in some
00:07:17kind of telenovela or a bad crime thriller,
00:07:21a really bad crime thriller, because when we see the circumstances of how it happened, you're
00:07:25right that it happened more or less by chance, let's say
00:07:28by chance, rather than intentionally, it was an investigation in
00:07:31a completely different case, an investigation in which the services of the federal state of Hamburg
00:07:35were active, it was
00:07:38about a love drama, to simplify
00:07:41it like that mm... about a lady who is
00:07:44the heiress of an empire of restaurants that are known primarily
00:07:48for their steaks, a chain of
00:07:50restaurants that offers steaks, that lady who is a rich heiress apparently
00:07:54had certain love problems with her husband, they divorced,
00:07:58then the question of who would get custody of their
00:08:01two children became relevant, apparently the father
00:08:05won the right and the mother was apparently very resentful and
00:08:08planned the abduction of her own
00:08:12children from her husband, and Hanning was a private individual at that time and, among
00:08:15other things, he was one of the people she hired
00:08:18to, as indications say,
00:08:21and for which Hanning himself is accused of,
00:08:25planning the abduction of their two children. Hanning later
00:08:29denied this, but there are again very strong indications that his
00:08:32company, meaning his private entrepreneurial company
00:08:36was also involved in attempts to defame that gentleman, meaning
00:08:39the father, in order for the mother to obtain custody of
00:08:43those two children in the framework of that investigation
00:08:47- the authorities of the federal state of Hamburg raided his house,
00:08:50searched his documents, his computers, and by chance they came across
00:08:54documents that were much more interesting than those they
00:08:57were looking for, and as it later turned out, this is what
00:09:01led to this move, the unique
00:09:04move that the former head of the BND
00:09:07was arrested, he is currently in pre-trial
00:09:10detention and the judge of the investigation
00:09:14ordered him to remain behind bars indefinitely.
00:09:17Is there any unofficial or rough estimate of the extent
00:09:21to which the German intelligence system has been
00:09:24compromised by this?
00:09:26There are, it's quite clear from this
00:09:29very moment, at the latest from this very moment, that it is
00:09:33more than compromised, because the biggest problem with this case is actually
00:09:37not the fact that August Hanning, as the former head of the BND,
00:09:40obtained some documents
00:09:43and actually sold these documents to some third
00:09:46countries that benefited from it, meaning
00:09:50it was, among other things, about information about the state of
00:09:53the Russian army or the Iranian
00:09:57nuclear program, meaning very sensitive information for which someone
00:10:00was certainly willing to pay a considerable
00:10:04fee. The problem is that it is, of course,
00:10:07an embarrassment, nothing less than a great embarrassment for the German
00:10:10intelligence system. precisely at a time when the
00:10:14BND, under the current leadership of Martin Eger, is trying
00:10:17to recover from numerous reputational blows in recent years, meaning this
00:10:21embarrassment is compounded by the fact that a few years ago there was another
00:10:25case from the BND, one of their intelligence officers leaked
00:10:29information, apparently to Russian intelligence services, and precisely
00:10:32in these days, months, this case is being unraveled before a Berlin
00:10:36court, and they are trying to find out the actual
00:10:40extent of the case, the extent of the guilt of their
00:10:43intelligence officer. Apart from the embarrassment, what is much more important for
00:10:47all of us actually in Europe, not only in Germany but in
00:10:50the European Union, is the fact that this
00:10:53case undermines trust in the BND as
00:10:57a key security agency in Europe.
00:11:01I remind you that this is a service that is responsible for
00:11:04cooperation abroad and for activities abroad, among other things, it is, for example, the counterpart
00:11:07of the American CIA,
00:11:10and as such, the agency is responsible for cooperation and
00:11:14for cooperation with similar agencies in other countries, partner
00:11:18countries, exchange of information, among other things, for example, on the
00:11:21issue of preventing possible terrorist
00:11:25attacks. In a situation where something like this happens, trust in the BND
00:11:28is lost, and some other services in friendly
00:11:32countries will probably think twice about whether they will share
00:11:35confidential information related to possible terrorist
00:11:39activities, the situation in Russia, in Iran, in
00:11:42China or some other countries,
00:11:46with German services, with German colleagues from the BNDD, when
00:11:50they are not sure whether that information will remain
00:11:52confidential within
00:11:55the BND structure, or whether it will perhaps be released to third
00:11:59countries, precisely the countries that are concerned about this information?
00:12:02Yes, the question was there, of course, before, but now it's pretty
00:12:05clear that there's a problem for allied services,
00:12:09not just for the German service itself, that their
00:12:12agents might also be compromised.
00:12:15Uh, another topic that is perhaps related in some way
00:12:19to this and to German institutions,
00:12:23uhm, the new, or relatively new, British Prime Minister
00:12:27yesterday stated that he had received
00:12:30confirmation from his intelligence services that Russia had indeed
00:12:33influenced that infamous Brexit referendum due to
00:12:37which the United Kingdom ultimately left
00:12:41the European Union. Uh, we can now
00:12:44perhaps connect this with another event from
00:12:48two days ago, Ukraine reportedly hit several
00:12:51facilities in Russia which were so-called troll
00:12:55farms, and a drop in traffic, a drop in
00:12:58support, a drop in discussion about, for example, Alternative für
00:13:01Deutschland in Germany in the last two days, their
00:13:05activity on social networks, liking
00:13:07statuses, and so on and so forth, now uh
00:13:11this Andy Brinham says this is
00:13:14important information for our allies, our friends
00:13:18in Germany and France who are going to
00:13:22elections soon and where some political
00:13:25changes are expected. Is this all that I have mentioned a topic in
00:13:28Germany? The attack on Russian
00:13:31troll farms leads to concrete and very visible
00:13:34political uh consequences or consequences for
00:13:38political communication, as well as this
00:13:40warning that came from London?
00:13:43It is current, of course, because it is actually nothing new, these are just some
00:13:47new indications, it is something that has been continuously developing in recent
00:13:51years, I remind you that a few years ago... there was a big story here in the European
00:13:54Union and here in Germany about possible
00:13:58activity of such troll farms that were located in
00:14:01North Macedonia and influenced the outcome
00:14:05or election activities in the United
00:14:08States. Uh, the links between the AfD and
00:14:12Russia are nothing new, there are documented
00:14:16analyses, reports, among other things, in the German press for
00:14:19years, that there are direct financial flows
00:14:23and, to put it mildly, support
00:14:27between Russia or Russian authorities, even high-ranking
00:14:30state institutions, among others, the AfD in Germany,
00:14:34and some other parties in the European Union, or rather
00:14:38in Europe. Now you mentioned Brexit, that is, the departure of the United Kingdom, at that time
00:14:41the United Kingdom was still in the European Union, whose
00:14:45goal was, of course, simplified, speaking, to weaken the European Union,
00:14:49Germany has long been perhaps the first to be
00:14:52targeted. Let's call it that, because Germany is
00:14:56defined as the largest country of the European Union, as the largest
00:14:59economy, the calculation is quite
00:15:02clear, just like in the times of the
00:15:06Cold War, if someone succeeds, of course, in
00:15:09quotation marks, that's at least how it's interpreted, to bring down Germany, then it will be easy
00:15:12to bring down all other countries of the European Union. Germany is
00:15:16particularly interesting in this context because it provides the greatest assistance to Ukrainians
00:15:20in Europe, both financial
00:15:23and political and military,
00:15:26of course, in that context we should also remember the very
00:15:32Leipzig airport when the authorities
00:15:34discovered a Russian drone, or drones, near the planes
00:15:38that were delivering aid to Ukraine, meaning a whole complex of these
00:15:42activities that leads to the fact that the authorities in Berlin, that is, the federal government,
00:15:46have actually been claiming for a long time that Germany is in some
00:15:50kind of uh conflict, or rather
00:15:53attacks, among other things, from Russia.
00:15:56Intelligence agencies, of course, work in all directions, surely European
00:16:00or American intelligence agencies work
00:16:02in the opposite direction, just as Russian ones work in this direction,
00:16:06this reminds us of an old uh
00:16:09good example to illustrate how far this can go, you mentioned
00:16:13it briefly in the announcement, but let's explain it to the viewers as well, because it's very
00:16:16interesting, it actually shows the extent of how far it can go,
00:16:20the biggest spy scandal in Germany's recent history, it's not
00:16:24this one with Hanning and the BND, but with Willy
00:16:27Brandt, that was the scandal that actually led, as you said, to Willy Brandt's
00:16:31resignation or withdrawal from the position of German Chancellor. Why did he leave?
00:16:35Because he took political responsibility
00:16:38in 1974 for the exposure
00:16:42of the Stasi spy Günter Guillaume, who was
00:16:45practically his personal assistant in the Chancellor's office in
00:16:49Bonn. Guillaume worked from 1972
00:16:53until 1974, when he was
00:16:56exposed. He worked in the Chancellor's office, he was a close
00:17:00associate of Willy Brandt, but his principal
00:17:02was the Stasi, East German, practically
00:17:06secret police. Yes, there are no shortages
00:17:09of such scandals in Germany,
00:17:12we will see how this one will ultimately end and in which direction
00:17:15it will go, just for the end, the last question, when it comes to
00:17:19Russia and Germany and how high
00:17:23and how far these connections go, and when it comes
00:17:26to former German Chancellors, Gerhard
00:17:30Schröder happily celebrated with Vladimir
00:17:33Putin, that is a scene that, of course, went around all of Germany,
00:17:36all of Europe, this is nothing new, we know that Schröder was also
00:17:40on the supervisory board of Gazprom and we know that this connection
00:17:43is extremely strong and we know how the current
00:17:47German Chancellor Friedrich
00:17:49Merz reacted to it.
00:17:52Well, he wasn't happy, let's put it that way. Germans,
00:17:55actually, when we look at it, and the reactions to this latest
00:17:59scene, meaning a happy Schröder with a perhaps
00:18:02less happy, but he certainly
00:18:05didn't dislike that Schröder was in his company with Vladimir Putin celebrating their
00:18:09birthday, precisely at a time when Russian missiles
00:18:13are practically killing dozens of Ukrainian civilians again,
00:18:17a difficult image to bear, especially for people in
00:18:20Germany who in recent years have
00:18:23advocated for a peaceful resolution of that conflict or at least in some
00:18:27way to freeze that conflict just so that civilians on
00:18:31both sides do not suffer and that the killing and those horrific attacks,
00:18:34especially on the civilian population, stop. Uh, the question
00:18:38of Schröder and his relationship with Russia and his
00:18:41activities is a saga that has been going on practically since
00:18:44the day after he left the Chancellor's office.
00:18:48We should not forget the fact that he, as a former Chancellor, is still
00:18:51uh financed by German
00:18:54taxpayers, as a former Chancellor he still receives
00:18:58certain compensations, let's say, which are not
00:19:02so small, on the other hand, uh he also
00:19:05earns well from.
00:19:07"Russia receives money, of course, from Moscow for his activities, especially in
00:19:11the energy sector and here he is actually called
00:19:15Vladimir Putin's most important lobbyist, many people actually would not
00:19:19perhaps mind it so much if uh
00:19:22Schröder, with such good connections and access to Vladimir
00:19:25Putin, would not use that influence in a productive
00:19:29way and in some way, whatever it may be, influence
00:19:33Vladimir Putin to, among other things, stop
00:19:36the killing. "Yes, we will, of course, follow all of this
00:19:40further, and we will soon see in the continuation of our
00:19:43show what is happening between Russia and Ukraine currently, with, of course,
00:19:47the mediation or without the mediation of the
00:19:50USA. Srećko, thank you in any case for being our
00:19:53guest this morning. Thank you for the invitation.
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00:25:22Good morning and welcome once again to a new day in the
00:25:25Zagreb studio of N1 Television, we will dedicate the next
00:25:29few minutes to the development of events between Ukraine and Russia,
00:25:32of course with the mediation, or somewhat
00:25:36shocking decisions of Donald Trump to lift
00:25:38the ramp, or to suspend sanctions against
00:25:42Russian energy sources let them go
00:25:46to the rest of the world. In the background of that decision is, of course...
00:25:50"the question of American mid-term elections, or
00:25:53so-called elections that come halfway through
00:25:57the term and where Trump and the Republicans are doing
00:26:00pretty badly, right? in a small part due to high
00:26:04inflation and high energy prices precisely in the
00:26:08USA. Now, what will that actually
00:26:11mean for geostrategic relations in
00:26:14the world, for the consequences for those same relations, what will
00:26:18of that oil that Russia sells end up
00:26:21financing attacks on Ukraine, what will
00:26:25go to Iran, what will go to China and so on and so
00:26:28forth, all of that is somewhere on the third or
00:26:32tenth place for Donald Trump, but high on
00:26:35his priorities, on the list of his priorities is
00:26:39the question of elections in Ukraine, that is, the intention to
00:26:42remove Vladimir Zelensky. We will talk about all of this
00:26:46soon with our guest, but before that let's hear what Zelensky himself
00:26:49had to say based on this latest
00:26:53development of events, that is, based on the fact that Donald
00:26:57Trump announced that an infrastructural agreement
00:27:01has been reached.
00:27:19there is a statement from the President of the United States that an energy
00:27:23ceasefire has been achieved. This
00:27:26is good news for everyone. It is important that
00:27:29this becomes part of reality.
00:27:32Ukraine is ready not to strike Russian
00:27:36energy, and we expect
00:27:39similar readiness
00:27:41from Russia. We welcome such an agreement. Unfortunately, throughout the whole day
00:27:45today there were Russian Shaheds in the sky, now
00:27:48there are also Shaheds in the sky, and there were strikes, unfortunately,
00:27:51of air bombs, and there were strikes on our
00:27:55energy infrastructure. Let's go now to Kyiv to
00:27:59our guest, so... Professor Maksym Kamenyetsky from the Institute of
00:28:02International Relations in Kyiv. Professor, good day to you and welcome to our
00:28:06program.
00:28:10Good day to you and your
00:28:13viewers. Let's start by first
00:28:17seeing if this ceasefire mentioned
00:28:20by Donald Trump was really respected, meaning
00:28:23no attacks on energy infrastructure
00:28:26either in Russia or in
00:28:28Ukraine.
00:28:31Uh... for me, it's a bit strange, uh
00:28:35what Trump said, actually he didn't mention
00:28:38any
00:28:41Russian statements regarding that, because that's the
00:28:45main, main thing, whether
00:28:48Russia accepted what Trump said, that's where
00:28:52I have the biggest doubt, the biggest doubts, because from
00:28:56the Russian side, what I heard last
00:28:59night was that Russia would consider it. Only
00:29:02about uh such, about such
00:29:05things, however, what they did last night already
00:29:09after this statement by Trump they hit several
00:29:12places, as far as Kharkiv is concerned,
00:29:15uh, they hit one
00:29:19power plant that, that there, I don't know,
00:29:23I mean, I'm in Kyiv, but in Kyiv they
00:29:25hit one, one
00:29:29part of this electrical system of the city,
00:29:33which is responsible for supplying
00:29:37apartments for approximately hundreds of thousands of Kyiv residents
00:29:40and somewhere around half
00:29:43of Kyiv's supply
00:29:47of water pumps that
00:29:49supply residential buildings with hot and
00:29:52cold water after this strike, about
00:29:56a hundred Kyiv residents were left without electricity and
00:29:59half of the city of Kyiv. until
00:30:03overnight it was without any water, that was already
00:30:07after, after this statement by Trump about
00:30:10the energy ceasefire, so
00:30:13for me it's a bit
00:30:17premature or something he said, it's
00:30:20most likely, as it often happened, it's
00:30:24a wish of Trump to believe that he achieved
00:30:27some agreement, that is, Ukraine and Russia
00:30:30certainly didn't achieve anything because there
00:30:34were no such bilateral
00:30:37agreements, it's something that was most likely at the level
00:30:41between Ukraine, USA,
00:30:44USA, Russia, but Russia has not yet confirmed
00:30:47that it has really stopped with or is ready
00:30:50for these strikes and
00:30:53a very important thing, uh
00:30:56there is no, no
00:30:59presentation.