Google Speech-to-Text API Automatic Transcription (Chirp). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:00call it as an Iran proxy, which I personally would
00:00:03not, I think Iran will at some point
00:00:07try to
00:00:09of revitalize the acts of resistance
00:00:11in a sense, but it's gonna be very, very difficult for the Islamic
00:00:15Republic of Iran, hence I
00:00:17in definitely agree with Dr. Hilani that
00:00:20of hence Iran pays a lot of attention to the stread of
00:00:23Furmus, as a by gaining chip yes, but at the same
00:00:27time I think as a part of its national security
00:00:31from this time on we will be
00:00:33of hearing more and more from the iran
00:00:37of authorities each and
00:00:38of every crisis, we have been hearing that in the past as well, but
00:00:42Iran had never
00:00:43of weaponized so to speak this real moves to this point, so now
00:00:47Iran has tried that, tested that and
00:00:51in successfully did that, and I am sure Iran is going to use that in the future as well,
00:00:55so I think we should be focusing on mus more and more
00:00:59of and I think... international community will not lead let
00:01:02the stero formus, the the fate
00:01:05of the formus
00:01:07of to of Iran of alone, because we we we have seen how can it hurt the
00:01:11international economy and how it can it hurt the
00:01:15flow of energy from the middle east to the rest
00:01:17of the world, but when it comes to the relationship between Iran and
00:01:21its neighbors especially in the golf region and also beyond,
00:01:24of because there is also I think very deep crisis
00:01:28which is not sufficiently. at the best, I think between Iran and
00:01:32Jordan, there is huge crisis going on between these two
00:01:35states, but actually the real crisis
00:01:38a is in happening between Iran and its neighbors in the Gulf
00:01:41region, starting with Kuwait, definitely, and then you
00:01:45can name each and every one
00:01:46of them, including Saudi Arabia, when we talk to the
00:01:50of Iranians in different conferences,
00:01:53of symposiums or other meetings, they have
00:01:56very visible
00:01:59of self-confidence for maybe understand the reasons, I think they have
00:02:02shown impressive resilience against the United States
00:02:06and Israel, that's definitely the case, but same time when
00:02:10it comes to their
00:02:11of rhetoric, a then they approach to their neighbors, it's not
00:02:15of necessarily favorable, and it's not necessarily friendly, and Iran
00:02:19hurt these countries for one reason or the other, if you ask the
00:02:23Iranians, they can legitimize every move that they have put
00:02:26into operation from February. 28
00:02:30onward, but if you look at it from
00:02:32the other side, I mean what they feel is
00:02:36a resentment, because they, I mean, they lost their prestige, for example,
00:02:40Dubai,
00:02:41of United,
00:02:42of Arab Emirates, Qatar, even Oman was here at some point, so
00:02:46I think Iran will have incredible difficulties
00:02:49rehabilitating its relations with its neighbors in the gulf, not that
00:02:53Iran will be excluded from the balance of power in this, which is
00:02:57impossible definitely, but Iran is... going to have lot of difficulties and
00:03:01I think not each all
00:03:04of these states are very interested in in
00:03:08quickly rehabilitating their
00:03:10of relations
00:03:11with with Iran, once this war is over and once we are in the post
00:03:14conflict period, I think they are going to watch and see the behavior
00:03:18of the Islamic Republic of Iran and they will not act
00:03:22civiifly to restore their relations with
00:03:24Tehran. Right, thank
00:03:28of you a very much professor Zaran for joining. us and being a part
00:03:31of the news room
00:03:32of today. Dr. Fadi, in your opinion, when looking at what is
00:03:35happening in terms of what the
00:03:38a US administration has been trying to achieve with
00:03:41Iran, especially now with
00:03:44of this straight affirmas deal inching closer, what do you think will be
00:03:48the way forward that Mr. Trump is going to be announcing and
00:03:52in especially in terms of what it is
00:03:53a that he can then present to his own public as to what
00:03:57it is that the US has achieved so far. what is it is
00:04:01aspiring to achieve and what is the strategy in order to
00:04:05of achieve that? so far, the Trump
00:04:08administration has been mentioning that this
00:04:12war has the strategic end
00:04:15of of not allowing Iran to have nuclear
00:04:19program, nuclear bomb, and of course that
00:04:22means we have to negotiate their nuclear program and highly enriched
00:04:26uranium, but obviously over the last weeks that the... has
00:04:30been uh much talk about
00:04:32of another
00:04:33of strategic end for this war, which is not allowing Iran to control the
00:04:37straight of hermus. this
00:04:39of is why it's very likely that the
00:04:41of language will hear from President Trump after that agreement comes
00:04:45to light is that it doesn't give Iran control over the straight of
00:04:49hermooz, but it gives it some kind of control
00:04:52over allowing ships
00:04:54of to transit through the Iranian
00:04:58waterways so that the... be time to
00:05:01of clear in the waterway in
00:05:02of between Oman and Iran from the mines which the IRGC has
00:05:06planted during the war time and there will be talk in
00:05:10Washington also that after the 60 days supposedly there will be
00:05:13nobody controlling the straight of hermus, obviously the
00:05:17Iranians will try to say that this is an interim agreement,
00:05:21but after the 60 days there will be some kind of control or
00:05:24sovereignty the Iranians will have over the straight of, so I think
00:05:28the language will remain a way ambiguous, which will
00:05:32give kind of margin for each side to say that
00:05:36this agreement represents victory for Washington and even for
00:05:40Tehran, but the focus in Washington. is on phase
00:05:43two and this is why I mentioned earlier in my comments
00:05:47that Washington is moving from
00:05:51coersive diplomacy if you will, which we are still having because there is still
00:05:54military pressure, but towards another kind of diplomacy which is
00:05:58phase diplomacy, meaning that we want to finish with phase number
00:06:02two, get the straight of hermus open for international
00:06:05navigation and move towards phase number two which is discussing with the
00:06:09Iranians their nuclear program and their... enrich
00:06:13uranium and that will again be under military pressure,
00:06:16because if these negotiations fail, we will be again going
00:06:20back to the air campaign and targeting other possibly
00:06:24military targets within the Iranian borders.
00:06:28in other words, the focus in the coming 60 days will be on what
00:06:31President Trump said from the early days of this war, that the
00:06:35strategy is to make sure that Iran doesn't
00:06:38have nuclear capabilities for military.
00:06:42purposes, but this is let's remember, this is again going to be
00:06:46very long process, because at the
00:06:50end it's not going to be in numbers only, there will be lot of technical
00:06:54talks, there will be lot of discussions also on the verification
00:06:57measures, it's not only enough to say that this is what Iran is allowed to do
00:07:01and what not allowed to do, there should be kind of
00:07:05measuring and verification processes and
00:07:09that means necessarily that there should be other parties involved.
00:07:12"this could be the Europeans, this could be the
00:07:16ia, ea for example, and there should be also some kind
00:07:20of agreement over if
00:07:24Iran doesn't doesn't of course follow
00:07:28these agreed upon measures, what are the
00:07:31consequences, will we have back economic
00:07:34sanctions imposed on Iran, will there be kind of military
00:07:38procedures? these are all questions which remain, in my opinion if we
00:07:42are successfully moving from phase one straight of
00:07:46hermus towards the second phase uh there could be
00:07:49possibility of extending possibly the 60 days to other 60 days
00:07:53if there is positive signs that these these
00:07:57talks are going in the right direction but there is lot of
00:08:01of of devil in the details as they say
00:08:04and um i think from what i hear from the
00:08:08Iranian officials as i mentioned earlier in my comments the straight of
00:08:12moves will remain a very much hedging point in all
00:08:16these discussions and this will give leverage also to
00:08:20the Iranians to prolong the talks regarding the
00:08:24nuclear program, and there is an opinion in Iran, let's remember
00:08:27this, that this war and these negotiations can
00:08:31outlive the US administration, the current
00:08:35Trump administration, and that is possibly something Trump will not
00:08:39allow to happen, so we may hear at sometimes...
00:08:42and see sometimes reverting again to military action, so there is
00:08:46lot to wait and see, and I, I, I think again, there
00:08:50is divul always in these details. Right, thank you very much
00:08:54Dr. Fani for joining us and being a part the news room today,
00:08:57there is of course lot of aspects to this discussion moving forward, and
00:09:01we're going to be taking a look at that in further detail as the situation
00:09:05progresses, and especially in terms of what the agreement between Iran
00:09:09and Oman is going to transpire towards, that will be the... because of course
00:09:13for another day and next we're going to take a look at what is happening
00:09:17as part the very important indus waters treaty and what India has
00:09:21held in abeyance? this is very very integral issue for
00:09:24Pakistan and something that India cannot do as part the
00:09:28treaty and the kind of international legal course that it's taking
00:09:31is also validating Pakistan stonce on the matter
00:09:35and we're going to be taking closer look at what that means and what are the future options for
00:09:39the country for that we've been joined by Dr. Security
00:09:43analyst from Karachi. Thank you very much Dr. Hamil for being part the show
00:09:47today. I'd like your perspective in terms of what you think will be the next
00:09:51steps as part the permanent court of arbitration. We have seen that
00:09:54despite India's status and claim of
00:09:58holding the treaty an abence which of course it cannot do. We've seen that the
00:10:02international momentum is continued. The permanent court of arbitration is also moving
00:10:06forward with its work as part the neutral process to. In terms
00:10:09of what is happening legally, how do you think that? situation is going
00:10:13evolve further if India continues to not
00:10:16participate in these legal proceedings and does not provide
00:10:20the data that it is being asked to do so. well,
00:10:24frankly, speaking, India is on very thin
00:10:27eyes, there is nothing in this that goes in favor of
00:10:31India so to say, because it is on the wrong side of international
00:10:35law and it will also fall on the wrong side of
00:10:38history. The only thing that is problematic at this moment
00:10:42in time is that India takes an inspiration from
00:10:46Israel and India, especially under Modi thinks
00:10:49that it can bypass, marginalize
00:10:53international norms, but This particular
00:10:56treaty, indus water treaty is one the most successful
00:11:00confidence building measures or an arrang institutional
00:11:03arrangement that has existed between two nuclear
00:11:07armed neighbors who are are not in
00:11:10very good relationship, we are very India centric in our
00:11:14security construct, India is very Pakistan centric in its
00:11:18security construct and that is sort of depicted by the
00:11:22deployment India does and by military build up
00:11:26that it does, so and then did this happen? this happened
00:11:29after India used terrorism, the bogi it has
00:11:33been using for now 20 years to sort of
00:11:37inflict pain on Pakistan, and when it was defeated in the
00:11:40sindoor operation, it continued with the so-called
00:11:44abiance. now the term abiance does not
00:11:48exist in the lingua the treaty
00:11:50itself, so there is no
00:11:54justification. that India has to carry on with this, but
00:11:57more importantly, if this treaty fails
00:12:01or collapses, then essentially we are setting
00:12:05a very dangerous precedence of
00:12:09institutional umbrellas for treaties or how
00:12:13treaties will function in the future, and that is why
00:12:17I think the timing the way India's behaving is extremely
00:12:21critical, and that is why the international pressure must come
00:12:25on India to call back this
00:12:28abiance on how you think that the treaty will
00:12:32actually collapse, you mentioned that that's going to be disaster, but in terms
00:12:36the legal protocols and safeguards that are in place as
00:12:40part the Indus Waters treaty, how exactly do you think it will collapse of
00:12:44India of course completely refuses its international obligations continues to
00:12:48act in ways that
00:12:49it is already doing so and working towards is there no
00:12:52consequence embedded within the system? to
00:12:55be able to hold India accountable or stop its actions. I say
00:12:59the present global situation is red flag. It
00:13:03is how international organizations are being marginalized and
00:13:07they are unable to hold states accountable. The whole concept of
00:13:11collective security is more diluted today than ever before
00:13:15and also the institutional umbrellas because of it, but having
00:13:18said this, India needs to realize that Pakistan has
00:13:22time and again exercised strategic. and responding to
00:13:26India about what it is doing with the water. India has been using water as
00:13:30a weapon for Pakistan for years now and Pakistan has
00:13:33constantly exercised strategic restraint in
00:13:37responding to that, but more recently the military
00:13:41leadership of Pakistan has been more categorical. They say the
00:13:45lifeline of Pakistan will is touched by India or if
00:13:49water is weaponized to point where it hurts Pakistan then Pakistan
00:13:52may respond back. in terms which
00:13:56you will can be painful for India, so I think that is the
00:13:59consequence of this, and moreover can India really afford to go to
00:14:03war with Pakistan, hasn't the sindoor operation taught enough lessons,
00:14:07has had enough lessons for the Indians, so what they eventually
00:14:11do is that they do wars by other means, putting
00:14:15the Indian Indus water treaty a biance
00:14:18is the Indian attempt of war by other
00:14:22means, Pakistan has acted with
00:14:25maturity, it has acted, it has exercised strategic
00:14:29restraint, but water is something else, water is
00:14:33Pakistan's lifeline, and there
00:14:37if it continues the way it is, and from saying that
00:14:41it is held in abiance, it starts diverting
00:14:44Pakistan's, or India is very water stressed
00:14:48country, it has designs of irrigating a desert,
00:14:51Rajasthan, and all of that has implication for
00:14:55Pakistan and India has been trying to get out the treaty for years,
00:14:59India has been talking about Indus water treaty to, India is talking about climate
00:15:03as a factor which should impact in the water
00:15:07flows into Pakistan, so India has been trying to find ways to
00:15:11cut water, Pakistan's water or to flood Pakistan,
00:15:14does this weaponization of water needs to stop and
00:15:18absolutely, I mean it's fairly obvious that
00:15:22when India says the treaty is a by. then it's trying to get out
00:15:26the treaty, if you look at the clauses the treaty, it is neither time
00:15:30specific nor event specific,
00:15:33nor government specific, it is between two states,
00:15:37by the world bank, if it is not event
00:15:41specific, how can use India use
00:15:44false flag operation of which it could provide no proof or
00:15:48evidence to India or the intern to pakistan or the international
00:15:51community, how can it use it, and
00:15:55something that India cannot do as part the treaty, and the kind of
00:15:59international legal course that it's taking is also
00:16:02validating Pakistan stons on the matter, and we're going to be taking
00:16:06closer look at what that means. and what are the future options for the country? for
00:16:10that we've been joined by doctors a security analyst from karachi. thank you
00:16:14very much dr. huma for being part the show today. i'd like your
00:16:17perspective in terms of what you think will be the next steps as part the
00:16:21permanent court of arbiteration. we've seen that despite
00:16:24India's status and claim of holding the treaty
00:16:28a bens which of course it cannot do. we've seen that the international momentum
00:16:32is continued. the permanent court of arbitration is also moving forward with its work as
00:16:36part the neutral. process to, in terms of what is happening
00:16:40legally, how do you think that the situation is going evolve further
00:16:44if India continues to not participate in
00:16:48these legal proceedings and does not provide the data that
00:16:50it is being asked to do so? well, frankly
00:16:54speaking, India is a very thin
00:16:57eyes, there is nothing in this that goes in favor of
00:17:01India so to say, because it is on the wrong side of international
00:17:04law, and it will also fall on the wrong side of
00:17:08history, the only thing that is problematic at this moment
00:17:12and time is that India takes an inspiration from
00:17:15Israel, and India, especially under Modi thinks
00:17:19that it can bypass, marginalize
00:17:22international norms, but this particular
00:17:25treaty, Indus water treaty is one the most successful
00:17:29confidence building measures or institutional
00:17:33arrangement that has existed between two nuclear
00:17:36armed. neighbors who are are not in
00:17:40very good relationship, we are very india centric in our
00:17:44security construct, India is very Pakistan centric in its
00:17:47security construct and that is sort of depicted by the
00:17:51deployment India does and by the military build up
00:17:55that it does, so and when did this happen? this happened
00:17:59after India used terrorism, the bogi it has been
00:18:03using for now 20 years to sort of
00:18:07inflict. pain on Pakistan and when it was defeated in the
00:18:10sindoor operation, it continued with the so-called
00:18:13abiance. now the term abiance does not
00:18:17exist in the lingua the treaty
00:18:19itself, so there is no
00:18:23justification that India has to carry on with this, but more
00:18:27importantly, if this treaty fails or
00:18:31collapses, then essentially we are setting
00:18:35a very dangerous precedence. of
00:18:38institutional umbrellas for treaties or how
00:18:42treaties will function in the future, and that is why
00:18:46I think the timing the way India is behaving is extremely
00:18:50critical, and that is why the international pressure must come
00:18:54upon India to call back this
00:18:57abiance on how you think that the treaty will
00:19:01actually collapse, you mentioned that that's going to be disaster, but in terms
00:19:05the legal protocol? and safegards that are in place as
00:19:09part the Indus Waters treaty, how exactly do you think
00:19:12it will collapse if India of course completely refuses its international obligations
00:19:16continues to act in ways that
00:19:18it is already doing so and working towards is there no
00:19:22consequence embedded within the system to be able to hold India
00:19:25accountable or stop its actions? I say the present
00:19:29global situation is red flag. It is how
00:19:33international organizations are being marginalized and they are.
00:19:37to hold states accountable, the whole concept of collective
00:19:41security is more diluted today than ever before, and also the
00:19:45institutional umbrellas because
00:19:46of it, but having said this, India needs to
00:19:50realize that Pakistan has time and again exercised strategic
00:19:54restraint and responding to India about what it is doing with the water.
00:19:58India has been using water as a weapon for Pakistan for years
00:20:01now, and Pakistan has constantly exercised strategic
00:20:05restraint in responding. that, but more
00:20:08recently, the military leadership of Pakistan has
00:20:12been more categorical, they say the lifeline of Pakistan
00:20:16will is touched by India, or if water is weaponized to
00:20:19point where it hurts Pakistan, then Pakistan may respond
00:20:23back in terms which you will can be painful
00:20:27for India, so I think that is the consequence of this, and more
00:20:31over, can India really afford to go to war with Pakistan? hasn't the
00:20:35sindoor operation taught enough lessons as i enough lessons for the
00:20:39Indians, so what they eventually do is that they do wars
00:20:42by other means, putting the India inters water treaty
00:20:46and abiance is the Indian. attempt
00:20:50of war by other means, Pakistan has
00:20:54acted with maturity, it has acted, it has
00:20:58exercise strategic restraint, but water is something
00:21:01else, water is Pakistan's
00:21:03lifeline, and there if it
00:21:07continues the way it is, and from saying that
00:21:11it is held in abiance, it starts diverting
00:21:14Pakistan's water, or India is very water stressed
00:21:17country, it has designs of irrigate. a desert
00:21:21Rajasthan and all of that has implications for
00:21:24Pakistan and India has been trying to get out the treaty for
00:21:28years, India has been talking about Indus water treaty to, India is talking
00:21:32about climate as a factor which should impact
00:21:34in the water flows into Pakistan, so
00:21:38India has been trying to find ways to cut water, Pakistan's
00:21:41water or to flood Pakistan, does this
00:21:44weaponization of water needs to stop and
00:21:48absolutely I mean it's fairly obvious that when
00:21:52India says the treaty is in abiance then it's trying to get out the
00:21:56treaty. If you look at the clauses the treaty, it is neither time
00:21:59specific nor event specific
00:22:03nor government specific. It is between two states
00:22:06brokered by the world bank. If it is not event
00:22:10specific, how can use India use
00:22:14false flag operation of which it could provide no proof or
00:22:17evidence to India or the internet to. Stan or the international
00:22:21community, how can it use it, how can it use
00:22:25it to put the treaty a byance when the treaty itself does not have clause
00:22:29of abiance, something which has been stated by the
00:22:32arbitation court in June 2025, so like
00:22:36I said India is on very thin eyes as per
00:22:40water laws, there is no way India can get away with
00:22:43this, right, absolutely, Dr.
00:22:47Hima, when we take a look at ' "the actions that then
00:22:51of course correspond to climate change and climate
00:22:55induced disasters in Pakistan, it's an added wore for the
00:22:58country, we've seen even now that there are warnings
00:23:02with regards to monsoon rains and the impact that it creates and then of course with the kind
00:23:06of actions India takes that also adds to the troubles that Pakistan is
00:23:10facing, how much of this constitutes us water terrorism and how can
00:23:14Pakistan talk about this with not just the World Bank or the permanent court of
00:23:18arbitration but also..." other departments that
00:23:22are looking into climate justice and climate financing, how can those
00:23:26platforms also be made aware of what is being
00:23:30added to this issue because the Indus Waters treaty and
00:23:34the actions that India is taking? well Pakistan is raised the issue at
00:23:37the United Nations, Pakistan is raised this, it's taken to taken it to the
00:23:41mediators, it has done its share of water diplomacy, we've just
00:23:45recently had water summit in Pakistan where we
00:23:49identified all these issues and there were scholars, it was an international
00:23:52summit, there were scholars from all over the world who walidated Pakistan's point of
00:23:56view, actually
00:23:58you know this
00:23:58is something I said right at the beginning of this conversation, it's not
00:24:02that what India can do or what India is
00:24:06doing is right or not, right now the question is that is is India
00:24:10trying to get away with weaponizing
00:24:14water against Pakistan by sort of
00:24:17taking advantage of a global envoyment which
00:24:21allows violations of international law and they go
00:24:25unpunished, that is a real concern, not, so
00:24:29it's not a bilateral issue between Pakistan and India, it's
00:24:33this should be issue which should be source of worry for all the
00:24:36treaties and the sec and
00:24:38the and the architect security architecture that exist
00:24:42under these treaties, because if treaty violations becomes
00:24:46norm and there are no repercussions for it, it is not just a problem
00:24:50for Pakistan, then it's a global issue, there's several
00:24:53other issues that several other treaties
00:24:57that exist, and by the way, the issue starts because
00:25:01what India has also been hedging sharing of
00:25:04data,
00:25:05you know, sharing is caring, so sharing the data is the first
00:25:09step towards this confidence building measure, something that India has
00:25:12been trying to prevent for
00:25:15years now, and to keep the optics
00:25:18alive, they will send the commission to Pakistan, but
00:25:22then continue to violate the treaty by building up dams or
00:25:26diverting water, which Pakistan has also identified
00:25:30as violation the treaty and taken it to the courts and the
00:25:34relevant forums, but our concern right now is
00:25:38that will this come to point where Pakistan will have to respond to this
00:25:41bilaterally if the international community fails
00:25:45to restraint India for continuing to violate this treaty,
00:25:49and the first... step should be that it takes back the stance that the treaty is in
00:25:53abiance because it has no legal roots, no legal
00:25:56standing, the treaty does not allow you to put it
00:26:00into an abiance, it is not, event
00:26:03specific, but what India has turned it into is
00:26:06event specific treaty abinence,
00:26:10it it is trying to get out the treaty over event for which it has no
00:26:14proof, it could neither give any proof, first it cannot do it, even if
00:26:18it was true to
00:26:19it is not, it was false flag operation, India could not
00:26:23provide any evidence to Pakistan, to its
00:26:27own people, to its own parliaments and
00:26:31of course to the international community. "I mean India has been called out for it,
00:26:34for what it is doing by its own people, especially the Modi government, so
00:26:38I just wonder if issue like water can be
00:26:42held hostage by the toxicity of politics in a country
00:26:46which is now revolting against its own form of its
00:26:50own government, its own leader and
00:26:53absolutely understand that that of course has to change, but unfortunately there so
00:26:57much that is being mined in India and this is of course affecting not
00:27:01just real peace." stability, but India itself. Thank you so much Dr. Huma Bikari for
00:27:05joining us and being a part the news room today. We'll take a look at another aspect
00:27:09that is closely linked with India's actions and that of course is
00:27:12yom that is being observed today and this marks
00:27:16India's
00:27:17illegal.
00:27:58Hello and welcome to Pakistan TV, my name is Nila Shuja. Let's take a look at the headline the
00:28:02hour.
00:28:20Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif will be paying visit to the kingdom of Saudi Arabia from the
00:28:236th to the 8th of August during which he will hold a meeting with Saudi Crown
00:28:27Prince Mohammed bin
00:28:29Salman.