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00:00:00The end of the news bulletin, see you again. would now be in the International Criminal Court. Israel would have been condemned by the Security Council. No one could turn a blind eye to what Israel is doing except the United States. But does the United States have the readiness to bear Israeli behavior or Israeli crimes similar to what happened in Gaza? I believe the United States is annoyed by Israeli behavior. I believe it seeks to find solutions. How to find solutions? I believe that the countries of the region can illuminate the picture or the path for a clearer American vision for the necessity of stability. And stability cannot be achieved unless the Palestinian issue is resolved fairly.
00:00:14the issue of Jerusalem,
00:00:15this conflict into a religious
00:00:17to religious extremism
00:00:23the occupying state.
00:00:28I mean, they are the ones
00:00:34all the detainees have no
00:00:34And there is also Jewish involvement in what happened last
00:00:40becoming Israeli, the individual interests week, except that it is an expression of the resentment present
00:00:43among Israelis,
00:00:46and part of it is punishment for citizens and families.
00:00:49Religion has a deep
00:00:50but it is a very important
00:00:58files. Therefore, this has become a key
00:01:03succeed in supporting the steadfastness
00:01:19separately, and that it does
00:01:33homes were built for unless you give me concessions States, "I will not interfere
00:01:39Welcome, dear viewers, to today's file. Since November
00:01:4311,
00:01:44and stand in its
00:01:45will not interfere in this 2023, the Arab-Islamic Ministerial Committee
00:01:48unless there is on Jerusalem was formed. Since that date, the committee,
00:01:51which includes a large number of Arab
00:01:54foreign ministers and Islamic
00:01:56power demographically. countries, has traveled the world to discuss ways to stop Israeli
00:01:59violations against the city of Jerusalem and its Islamic
00:02:02and Christian holy sites. Today in
00:02:05Amman, the committee held its meeting to reaffirm
00:02:09the same position: the sovereignty
00:02:11Therefore, when a house is over Jerusalem is Palestinian, and the guardianship over
00:02:14its holy sites is Hashemite.
00:02:17of injustice. Injustice In bold letters, we present
00:02:18Therefore, its location these headlines to our guest in the studio, the writer and political analyst Dr.
00:02:21Mundher Hawarat. Welcome. Hello, Professor Ahmed, to
00:02:27to make concessions all your dear viewers and to our people in Palestine and the West Bank in general. Dr.,
00:02:30first of all, does this committee,
00:02:33which includes a large number of Arab foreign
00:02:37ministers and Islamic countries, add momentum, in your opinion,
00:02:41to the Jerusalem file? Without
00:02:43The issue here is the occupation a doubt. If we look at the composition of the committee,
00:02:46the committee includes Arab countries, major Islamic
00:02:50countries
00:02:52like Indonesia, Turkey. Turkey is a member of NATO.
00:02:56Therefore, this adds weight to the committee.
00:03:00The demographic
00:03:03weight of Indonesia, of Egypt
00:03:06as a pivotal Arab state, of Jordan, of Pakistan
00:03:11they call it. And of course, as a nuclear Islamic state. All the participating
00:03:14states are states of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and Qatar.
00:03:18All these states
00:03:21willing to die very extremist and demand these are active on the regional and international levels
00:03:24and have significant influence. They have
00:03:27soft power, hard power, and technological
00:03:30result will be more beautiful power. They can exert pressure
00:03:34on the international
00:03:37equation? There are signs community because each of these parties possesses its soft
00:03:41tools through
00:03:44extremist organizations which it can exert influence. For example, Turkey
00:03:46can influence NATO.
00:03:49issue and on the Jerusalem Indonesia
00:03:52Israel is heading to the right, is influential. Qatar, Saudi Arabia,
00:03:54the Emirates,
00:03:56Israeli entity was planted all of them. Jordan is an active state, and Egypt is a major state. Therefore,
00:04:00I imagine that this
00:04:03from the conflict, momentum in this committee
00:04:06is capable of producing
00:04:08them centrally. results if
00:04:09I mean, the Palestinian there is effective coordination or important effective coordination
00:04:12between the parties and selecting
00:04:16the methods that can be used to exert
00:04:20lies in how to convert pressure on the international community and choosing the method of exerting
00:04:24pressure. They are oil-producing countries, as I told
00:04:28you, they have the capabilities
00:04:30to exert pressure for the benefit
00:04:32of Jerusalem and its cause, and for the benefit
00:04:36of the Palestinian cause. Previously, by the way, such
00:04:39pressure was exerted and led to positive results. Dr.,
00:04:42I stop at what you said: "If these countries wanted
00:04:46to the Arab world? It has to." What could prevent these countries from exercising their influence
00:04:49on the international stage
00:04:52of planting an entity to stop these violations, at least with regard to Jerusalem? The problem is the nature
00:04:55of the countries' alliances.
00:04:57of what is happening in Palestine, Each country has its own interests. We do not consider
00:05:00this group of countries as one bloc
00:05:03that can melt itself into one crucible
00:05:07and exert pressure through it. Each of these
00:05:10countries has its own agenda,
00:05:13its national interests,
00:05:17its internal interests. But
00:05:20in the end, Turkey has its interests.
00:05:24It may sympathize with
00:05:27but it will not give up its interests
00:05:29for the sake of Jerusalem. And
00:05:33the same applies to Indonesia. Therefore, the idea
00:05:36of melting all these countries into one
00:05:40direction to exert pressure for the benefit
00:05:43of the Palestinian cause,
00:05:47this happens, but how to overcome
00:05:52of each country, the individual alliances
00:05:55of each country? How do we find a common
00:05:58denominator for these eight committee members
00:06:01of a large committee, these members, without
00:06:05this exerted pressure conflicting with the internal
00:06:08interest of each party? I think this is the mission
00:06:11of the Arab League and the mission
00:06:14of its president and the mission of the foreign minister,
00:06:17the head of this committee, who is the Jordanian
00:06:20foreign minister. If they can establish
00:06:23coordination between
00:06:26the interests of the states, not excluding the interest of each state
00:06:32not conflict with their international obligations
00:06:35and their international interests, and they find
00:06:39common ground between them that all contributes
00:06:42to one momentum for the benefit of Jerusalem
00:06:45and the Palestinian cause, I think they can succeed.
00:06:49But how do we reach this point? I think it requires leadership
00:06:53ingenuity. It requires leadership ingenuity and coordination ingenuity. And
00:06:57I don't think the Arab region, or the President
00:07:00of the Arab League, or the Jordanian Foreign Minister, lack this
00:07:03experience, because there is accumulated
00:07:07experience in how to manage regional work
00:07:10and institutional work.
00:07:12Therefore, I also think it's important not to set
00:07:16exaggerated demands. I think we won't get
00:07:20all of them. Let's divide the agenda into specific
00:07:24points. Now, the important thing is to highlight
00:07:27the Israeli violation
00:07:30of international law
00:07:33and the basic conflict as an occupying
00:07:36power. This is important,
00:07:39and we prove that it violates international laws.
00:07:45Doctor, if we want to be pragmatic, for example,
00:07:48the Gaza file and the West Bank file,
00:07:51and when the occupier or the Israeli right
00:07:55talks about expelling Palestinians, about ethnic cleansing
00:07:58and so on, it goes to the issue of Arab national
00:08:01security and the issue of joint Arab security regarding the issue
00:08:05of displacement, and therefore the positions are firmer
00:08:08regarding Jerusalem. Does Jerusalem represent to many Arab countries
00:08:12(and here we do not diminish their rights or
00:08:15their positions) it may be a moral or
00:08:19humanitarian issue and not
00:08:22an issue with a national or Arab security dimension in its broad sense,
00:08:26unlike the West Bank and Jerusalem, and this, of course, does not apply to Jordan
00:08:30nor to Palestine nor to some very close Arab
00:08:33countries to the Palestinian geography. Now,
00:08:37the close Arab countries, especially Jordan, Egypt, and the Gulf
00:08:41Arab countries, for them, the issue of Jerusalem
00:08:44combines and mixes being a political issue
00:08:48as an occupied Arab land, and it must
00:08:51gain its right to an independent entity
00:08:55ruled by Palestinians. This
00:08:57is one. Two, it has a religious
00:09:01significance for
00:09:04Arabs.
00:09:06For countries like Turkey, Indonesia, and other
00:09:10Islamic countries, it may be far
00:09:15it may not concern
00:09:22issue is not a central issue for them. However,
00:09:25the religious dimension in this issue is very important
00:09:29for these countries. Therefore, the intelligence
00:09:33this religious idea or the religious dimension in these
00:09:37countries' views of the Palestinian issue and transform
00:09:40it into political momentum. For example, when I transform
00:09:44Indonesia or Turkey from emotional and moral
00:09:47momentum into political momentum, this
00:09:50is something that needs discussion. Practically,
00:09:54if Israel achieves its goals
00:09:57in Jerusalem, this
00:09:59will affect not only Jordan,
00:10:03not only Egypt or Saudi Arabia or all the Arab Gulf
00:10:07states, or generally Arab states,
00:10:10it will affect the Islamic conscience everywhere.
00:10:14Therefore, this will have a political impact. Therefore,
00:10:17the stance of major Islamic countries in favor
00:10:21of the Palestinian cause is not just an emotional issue.
00:10:25When Muslims anywhere
00:10:28in the world see this blatant violation,
00:10:31in my opinion, their anger will turn political, and this
00:10:35will lead to undesirable political consequences for these
00:10:39countries. Therefore, the process of translating emotion
00:10:42into politics requires what we might call
00:10:46tactical ingenuity from the Arab countries to convince
00:10:50leaders that their internal political
00:10:54interests align with serious
00:10:57support for the cause of Palestine and the cause
00:11:00of Jerusalem, because in the end it will be in their interest.
00:11:04Countries like Turkey have elections, Indonesia as
00:11:07well. These major countries are important. Pakistan
00:11:10too, I apologize for overlooking Pakistan,
00:11:15country, especially at this time. Pakistan
00:11:19base in many international and regional
00:11:23position of Pakistan
00:11:27may give it important pressure
00:11:29tools that can influence. Therefore, in my opinion,
00:11:33the process of converting
00:11:35sympathy into a strong
00:11:38political stance, not just a political stance.
00:11:42The demand is that this political stance
00:11:45of support turns into a pressuring
00:11:48stance. For example, Pakistan can tell the United
00:11:53in such and such an issue
00:11:57in the Palestinian file,
00:12:00in the occupation file." For example, Turkey
00:12:03is capable of saying that
00:12:06I
00:12:10issue in the region
00:12:13a concession in the Palestinian issue for the benefit of Palestinians.
00:12:16The same applies to Indonesia. Indonesia is a great
00:12:21We should not deny its status as the largest
00:12:24power in terms of population,
00:12:28an Islamic power, and its strategic location in a region
00:12:31that will lead the
00:12:33future, its strategic location in
00:12:37a region that is qualified for the global
00:12:39weight to be there.
00:12:43near China, near these places,
00:12:46it can exploit it as an influential political
00:12:49weight for the benefit of the Palestinian issue,
00:12:52perhaps better than all the weapons in the world. This is important.
00:12:56I want to stick to what you said, and I don't want to go into analyzing the final statement.
00:12:59The final statement is clear, but as it is said,
00:13:03understanding the problem or understanding the question is half the solution.
00:13:08and the mentality of this Israeli right, and even the Israeli
00:13:12left, it is the mentality of the Israeli presence on Palestinian
00:13:15lands. The Israeli idea or the Zionist
00:13:19belief states that this Jerusalem,
00:13:22in all its details, is a Jewish city,
00:13:26and this mosque must be demolished to be replaced
00:13:30by the Temple of Solomon, or Solomon's Temple, as
00:13:36this is what pressures the top of the Israeli political
00:13:39pyramid to resort to more extremist policies
00:13:42because the people have become
00:13:46demands. If we want to measure this on the Arab
00:13:49and Islamic countries, do the Arab and Islamic countries
00:13:53and their peoples (and here I mean the peoples)
00:13:57possess this direction? I don't want to call
00:14:01it extremist, but it is adherence to the idea
00:14:04that Jerusalem is an Islamic-Christian city with an Arab presence.
00:14:07Therefore, the peoples also pressure their governments to have
00:14:10positions on the Palestinian
00:14:14file. Now,
00:14:17and this does not concern it. It may affect
00:14:20the reality for a temporary period and push towards
00:14:24the Judaisation and Israelisation of the city of Jerusalem.
00:14:26These are ideologies that cannot be relied
00:14:30upon as being achievable. They say so. I am
00:14:34now saying that we need to unite the Arab world.
00:14:37Its unity or lack thereof, I will say what I want,
00:14:40and he will say what he wants. But in the end,
00:14:43the Israeli-Palestinian relationship is subject to
00:14:47the logic of occupation and therefore the logic
00:14:49of international law. No matter how much it boasts
00:14:53of its power, it must submit to international law.
00:14:57Therefore, we cannot rely on what the settlers
00:15:00say. We are now in a phase where they are receiving
00:15:04support from an extremist right-wing government. But
00:15:08will this extremism spread
00:15:11already spread. Many of the extremist movements
00:15:15in the Arab world, if you search for their seeds,
00:15:19you will find that the injustice
00:15:22this feeling that a large and broad nation is not
00:15:26able to fight in defense
00:15:30of a small entity and avenge the Palestinian
00:15:33people and remove injustice from them. This
00:15:37scenario will certainly happen if the settlers
00:15:40continue this behavior in the city
00:15:44of Jerusalem, because the city of Jerusalem does not only
00:15:48mean politics. Its conflict is political. Transforming
00:15:52one will lead
00:15:55within the Palestinian territories
00:15:58of the occupying state, and to a corresponding
00:16:01religious extremism in the Islamic or Arab world. I'm talking
00:16:05about 400 million people. You may not feel it now,
00:16:09but if there is a real development,
00:16:12and Muslims feel that this city
00:16:14is inevitably
00:16:17there will be an outburst of anger that no one
00:16:21knows how to control. Now,
00:16:23people are calm.
00:16:26impact on souls. No one can predict
00:16:30the reactions of a religious person towards
00:16:33a sacred place of deep sanctity
00:16:36like the city of Jerusalem. Therefore,
00:16:40they believe that their religious
00:16:44text says that the laws cannot be established
00:16:47until the temple is built, and that there are laws
00:16:50that are suspended until the temple is built. On the
00:16:53other hand, there are 400 million people,
00:16:57now 450, and 1.2 billion
00:17:00Muslims. These people have a conviction,
00:17:04a large part of them, let me say half of them, have a firm
00:17:08conviction that
00:17:10the idea of
00:17:12uprooting the entity becomes deeply rooted in their
00:17:16souls, and this is not in Israel's interest if it wants to remain.
00:17:19I mean, tomorrow I might have 100 Daesh,
00:17:23and the official Arab system, which is stable
00:17:26and capable of pragmatic and political dealings with
00:17:30Israel, will be in danger. Therefore, the entire
00:17:33region will enter a state of chaos and infighting,
00:17:36and this, unfortunately, no one is taking into
00:17:40consideration. I mean, how long did it take countries
00:17:44to eliminate ISIS? Al-Qaeda, all these
00:17:46organizations that they called terrorist.
00:17:50All these organizations arose from a feeling
00:17:55from whom? From Western countries and from
00:17:59the occupation of Palestine, which was the real seed
00:18:02for producing this hidden anger in the souls
00:18:06of Muslims and Arabs: they see Palestine occupied
00:18:10and all this world is unable to save it.
00:18:14Therefore, the feeling of anger was ignited. If this
00:18:17happens again, the first time the world was able
00:18:20to unite and stop it. The second time
00:18:23the world is preoccupied with something more dangerous
00:18:26than the region. The world I mean is the United States.
00:18:29So, Doctor, you are saying that the Jerusalem file
00:18:32is extremely important because if the
00:18:35occupation tries to turn it into a purely religious
00:18:39file, or to turn it into a religious war,
00:18:42then it will ignite a wide-ranging war,
00:18:46which is not in Israel's interest. Without a doubt, it is not
00:18:49in Israel's interest, because people can fight
00:18:52for homelands and sacrifice for them.
00:18:55But for religion, they are
00:18:59because they are confident that this death means
00:19:02martyrdom and going to heaven,
00:19:05and that the
00:19:07than life. But does Western society or the international
00:19:11community understand this
00:19:14of such understanding. There is a beginning
00:19:18to understanding why
00:19:21emerged in the Arab and Islamic region.
00:19:24This understanding has begun to produce a different
00:19:27understanding. Firstly, in the beginning of the
00:19:30conflict, when the
00:19:34in the region, the West was convinced that this
00:19:37region was a desert of camels and shepherds,
00:19:41let's say, less than human, and that the Jews
00:19:45were civilized people. In addition, getting rid
00:19:48of the Jewish problem, creating a homeland for Jews
00:19:51in Palestine, was not out of love for them,
00:19:55it was out of hatred for them. They got rid
00:19:59of a large part of a problem that was bothering Europe.
00:20:02Therefore, they rejected any settlement
00:20:06related to their return or talking about them being
00:20:09able to return to Europe. So they stood firmly
00:20:13with Israel that this state must be established.
00:20:16And they looked at us, Arabs and the region,
00:20:19as uncivilized, primitive
00:20:21people, shepherds who don't
00:20:25understand the concept of a homeland. Therefore, the idea
00:20:30was easy. Now it's different. Now the vision
00:20:33for the region is completely clear.
00:20:37It has peoples, cities, development, investment.
00:20:40Even the vision for the Palestinian citizen
00:20:43by the West has become clear
00:20:46and evident to all. This Palestinian
00:20:50who immigrated to Europe or to Latin
00:20:53America or North America found himself
00:20:57to be educated, understanding, productive,
00:21:00capable of holding leadership positions,
00:21:04being an expert, a leader. Therefore, the vague idea
00:21:08about the region, about the Palestinian, about the Arab has changed.
00:21:12And the idea that the Jew is civilized and these
00:21:15are backward has changed. Therefore, the balance
00:21:18of power is changing, not in Israel's interest.
00:21:24pressure from outside against Zionist policies
00:21:27against the Palestinian people, Doctor. I will remain
00:21:31within the pragmatic framework, as we
00:21:34called it. The issue of supporting Palestinians
00:21:38and supporting Jerusalemites and supporting this holy
00:21:41city. The statement referred to the issue
00:21:45of financial support or material support.
00:21:48In your opinion, to what extent can these countries
00:21:53of Jerusalemites, at least financially? And there were decisions from
00:21:57the League of Arab States, for example, to support
00:22:00the state of Palestine, but this was not implemented,
00:22:03unfortunately. This is very important
00:22:06because I will keep supporting. There is certainly a sincere
00:22:09intention to support, but Israel, the other
00:22:12party, obstructs support. You need
00:22:16a mechanism to deliver support. For example, Israel
00:22:19demolishes Palestinian homes. If
00:22:23Palestinians, if a city exclusively for
00:22:27Palestinians was built, in my opinion, it would
00:22:30reduce the suffering of Jerusalemites. By the
00:22:34way, Jerusalemites are steadfast on their land. We are not
00:22:37seeing a significant shift despite all Israeli
00:22:40measures. In fact, the Palestinian people have proven, with
00:22:44conclusive evidence, that they are a people who want
00:22:47their country and do not want to leave it. They have
00:22:51learned from past experiences that if you
00:22:54leave your place, a vacuum will be created
00:22:58and occupied by the Israelis.
00:23:01demolished, they build another one, even if it is
00:23:04illegal in the eyes of the Israeli.
00:23:08But they build it, and they lose its cost
00:23:11so that Israel is condemned when it demolishes
00:23:15it. Therefore, this Palestinian policy needs
00:23:19support. It needs money, it needs money. How can
00:23:22this citizen, whom Israel is trying to prevent from
00:23:25working, live? Many of them
00:23:29live on the support of their children abroad. If
00:23:33it weren't for their children abroad, they might have
00:23:36left. But when support comes from the Arab
00:23:39League or from an Islamic organization,
00:23:42and by forcing or pressuring the United
00:23:46States that this is allocated to these people for
00:23:50electricity, for water, for streets,
00:23:53for housing, and the United States, every ally of
00:23:57every United States, the United States is an ally
00:24:00of everyone, and each of these parties
00:24:03has a mechanism to pressure the United
00:24:07States and influence its position. And I believe
00:24:10that when pressure is exerted on it to intervene
00:24:14or allow or pressure Israel to allow the entry of funds
00:24:18by creating an internal
00:24:21fund. This fund must always be full.
00:24:24And I don't think a billion or two billion or three
00:24:28billion dollars a year will cripple the Arab
00:24:31and Islamic world. I mean, if each country donated
00:24:3450 million, I believe the fund will be full
00:24:37and will help ensure the steadfastness
00:24:41of Jerusalemites. It will support it, not guarantee it. It actually exists.
00:24:45They want to stay on their land. It will support
00:24:49their steadfastness, enhance their
00:24:52well-being in life, confront
00:24:56Israeli measures against them,
00:24:59support their presence in a stable environment
00:25:02at least so that they can live their lives with
00:25:05dignity and respect, instead of Israel pursuing
00:25:08their livelihood and existence. And I believe this is
00:25:12one of the basic tasks of
00:25:15the Arab collective action organizations,
00:25:19first and foremost the Arab League
00:25:22and the Islamic organizations, first and foremost the Islamic
00:25:26Conference. This is in addition
00:25:29to political support, of course.
00:25:32The most important part of political
00:25:35support is that Israel must be compelled
00:25:39to treat Jerusalem as an occupied
00:25:43city. Therefore, even part of these
00:25:46funds should be provided by Israel as
00:25:50a state concerned with caring for citizens
00:25:54or the occupied territories. Doctor, you named
00:25:56the most important party in this
00:25:59equation, which is the United States of America. After
00:26:03President Donald Trump came to office
00:26:06in his first term and decided to move
00:26:10the American embassy to Jerusalem,
00:26:13some countries are now racing to move
00:26:16their embassies to the city of Jerusalem
00:26:20in recognition of it being the capital of
00:26:25Now, how can we convince America and President
00:26:29Trump that what he is doing
00:26:32now regarding the holy city is a violation
00:26:35of international resolutions? And
00:26:38how can we also tell the countries
00:26:42of the world, or convince them, by force
00:26:44or by interest, that interest is not
00:26:48always with America and not always
00:26:51with the American president's absolute direction? If
00:26:55we focus a bit, now Trump in his
00:26:58first term was different from his second
00:27:02term. Trump in his first
00:27:06term was committed to the Israeli
00:27:09conviction in a way that, in my opinion,
00:27:12there was no way to stop it. But in this term,
00:27:16Trump has become more understanding
00:27:19of the nature of the region and more aware of
00:27:23the importance of its stability. And he has become
00:27:26concerned about its stability, because opening the
00:27:29region's file wide open means a chronic
00:27:32headache for the United States,
00:27:35distracting it from the danger that the United
00:27:39States has begun to identify, not us,
00:27:42that it wants to confront China's expansion
00:27:47way and prevent it. Therefore, its chronic
00:27:50preoccupation in this region
00:27:53will hinder it from exercising its mission
00:27:56of defending the United States as a dominant
00:28:00nation or a dominant pole. Therefore, Israel's
00:28:04continuation, even if there is a strategic alliance
00:28:07(and we noticed some points of disagreement
00:28:11between them), even if Israel is an ally
00:28:15of the United States, its continued troubles for the United
00:28:18States will be in the interest of
00:28:22Arabs to pressure the United States
00:28:26to pressure Israel
00:28:29for the benefit of Palestinians. And this is the right
00:28:32time, I believe. This is the right
00:28:36time. Now there is a war in the
00:28:40Arabian Gulf, there is confusion or
00:28:44chaos in the region generally. The United
00:28:47States does not need new chaos after
00:28:51the Gaza chaos. After Israel committed shameful crimes in
00:28:54and the basis and the fundamental pillar of the just
00:28:58solution is that you