Google Speech-to-Text API Automatic Transcription (Chirp). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:00of wealth within the reservation system where a
00:00:03of few chiefs or owners,
00:00:07you might say, are gaining most
00:00:09of the wealth that's being generated through these new business that have been
00:00:13created. there's been for over these three decades there's been
00:00:16a tremendous awakening in terms
00:00:18of the consciousness of how people view uh what
00:00:22what happened the atrocities committed against the
00:00:26indigenous
00:00:27of people uh in these united states. but I
00:00:30think uh and but and I think
00:00:32in a sense that that parallels what's happened the last three years for the
00:00:35Palestinians, that there is this increased awakening, but I
00:00:39think that it's been very limited in terms of what policy policy
00:00:42shifts uh we've had in terms of uh
00:00:46changing tangibly uh their lives um
00:00:50and and tangibly making redress for the crimes committed
00:00:54against them and as we see with the Palestinians no
00:00:57shift meaningfully in terms of US policy. lot of
00:01:03of of pronouncements, lot of of posturing, lot
00:01:04of of of backtracking in terms of rhetoric, but no meaningful shift in terms of
00:01:08policy, and until that changes, that's completely
00:01:15in of unacceptable.
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00:04:17welcome back, i'm going to continue the browling coverage
00:04:20of the
00:04:20of indigenous people's day by two more steam guests here, i'm
00:04:24going to
00:04:25a introduce of my guest, miss Aviva Chomsky, historian, author and
00:04:29activist, joingus us Boston in the US and also
00:04:32Miss Alana Travers, researcher
00:04:34of the School of Law, Queens University, joining me from Belfast. Very
00:04:38good to have you both on this um special occasion and this rolling coverage.
00:04:42My question to you, Miss Aviva Chomsky is that after
00:04:46US's independence in
00:04:49in 1783, Westward expansion accelerated in the disposition
00:04:53of native Americans, how central was this land
00:04:56acquisition to the formation
00:04:58of the American state? It
00:05:02was absolutely fundamental to the formation
00:05:05of the American state, if you look at the map
00:05:07of the 13 colonies that rebelled against Great
00:05:10Britain in uh
00:05:121975, it's a tiny sliver along the
00:05:16east coast of what is today, the United States, so the first
00:05:20century after independence was the
00:05:23century of genocide,
00:05:26conquest and settler colonialism, which is
00:05:30what made this country and both
00:05:33its physical borders, but also its
00:05:37culture, its institutions were all
00:05:41formed in that first. century of setler colonialism.
00:05:45Miss Chomsky, from mass killings to the destruction of
00:05:48indigenous languages and traditions, how did colonial
00:05:52policies target both indigenous lives and
00:05:55identities?
00:06:00um, well, first of all, the the
00:06:03attempt was to clear the land, um, to
00:06:07make room for white
00:06:11settlement, and access to the resources the and
00:06:14access to the resources the land,
00:06:18but it was logical project to justify this,
00:06:22so it goes along with
00:06:25virulent anti-native racism
00:06:28a an
00:06:31explanation that indigenous
00:06:35people are backward and primitive and destined
00:06:38to die out under the advance of white suprema.
00:06:42see a justification for that, um, and then
00:06:46deliberate attempts not only to kill people, but another
00:06:50aspect of genocide is to um
00:06:54destroy and undermine and erase people's
00:06:57culture, so even after most the military
00:07:01campaigns had ended by the end the 19th century, that
00:07:05is after one century of of um
00:07:08genocide through um mass murder.
00:07:13comes the cultural genocide, the creation the boarding
00:07:16school system, which the
00:07:20reservation system, the boarding school system, which forces children,
00:07:24parents to give up their children and children to be educated, to
00:07:27learn how to be not indigenous
00:07:30people,
00:07:34and cultural genocide that goes through the late 20th century, and in many
00:07:38ways still continues, if you think about what children are taught in the public
00:07:42school, what textbooks say, what popular media
00:07:45says, and even what our president is saying now,
00:07:49as um, there has been debate in the United States about how
00:07:53we celebrate Columbus Day and what it means, and there's been a
00:07:57strong movement in many parts the country and among many different
00:08:01groups to rename the day indigenous people's day, and to
00:08:05tell a more um complete and
00:08:08complex story of what Conquest meant,
00:08:12but uh president um Trump is obviously highly
00:08:16opposed to that, he thinks of that as wokeness, and
00:08:20um, his statements last night were
00:08:22that, we are always going to celebrate the
00:08:26greatness of Columbus, so so that narrative, that settler
00:08:30colonial narrative is still being very that is an eraser of
00:08:34indigenous peoples and another aspect the
00:08:37genocide of indigenous peoples is still very prominent in the United
00:08:41States. Right. me to bring in Miss Alana Traverse into the
00:08:44conversation here, Miss Traverse, for centuries indigenous
00:08:48peoples have faced land disposition and forced removal
00:08:52of children from their families, among other things of course, to what
00:08:56extent have these historical injustices been addressed
00:09:00and how do they continue to shape today's struggles over tribal
00:09:04sovereignty, land rights and protection of indigenous communities and
00:09:07rights. Thank you, hi everybody, yeah, thanks for
00:09:11inviting me. i think it's quite clearly that they do
00:09:15continue and they have continued and i think the
00:09:19structure of that um abuse and historical
00:09:22injustice is very clear to see across the world and and
00:09:26particularly by the United
00:09:29States. um, i'm not sure if you said the
00:09:32beginning, but my research is on algorithmic warfare and civilian
00:09:36harm and i'm incredibly interested in how that's being
00:09:40felt, perceived, experienced. uh particularly in Iran, I would
00:09:44love to to connect with more people in in in the region, please
00:09:48feel free to reach out to me. um, and I think actually the point I wanted to
00:09:52make in in regards to this question is that actually
00:09:56it's completely almost replicable
00:09:59if we're thinking about modern algorithmic warfare, um, the same
00:10:03kind of abstraction, abuse,
00:10:06profiling, um, by military
00:10:09systems, specifically by the... the current US
00:10:13military um, but also you other countries, including
00:10:17the UK, um, developing this
00:10:19technology, integrating this
00:10:21technology, it's incredibly concerning and...
00:10:25think on the other hand, you still have that sort of struggle and
00:10:29that resistance um, kind of containing
00:10:33struggle to be, sovereign i guess against that kind of
00:10:36legal abstraction, and and then obviously we have sort of very
00:10:40physical um manifestations of that too,
00:10:44yeah right, miss chomsky, washington
00:10:48condemns alleged abuses abroad and while
00:10:51overlooking obviously its own history, how does selective historic? could
00:10:55memory shape US's foreign policy today, you
00:10:58think? um, I would say both foreign
00:11:02policy and domestic policy that
00:11:05is um, there's several
00:11:09studies that have called the US
00:11:12wars against indigenous people, the first way of
00:11:16war, and have looked at how all wars that the
00:11:20United States has fought since its founding have been Indian
00:11:24wars, that is... def the dehumanization the enemies, the
00:11:27calls for total destruction the peoples who we are
00:11:31fighting, the targeting of civilians, um, that that has
00:11:35been absolutely characteristic the idea that the
00:11:39United States represents good, and whoever it is that
00:11:43we are fighting represents evil and barbarism and just need to
00:11:47be totally destroyed, and I think we hear that also in President
00:11:50Trump's
00:11:54um uh uh... language about Iran um and we also see
00:11:58it in talking about Gaza that is
00:12:01the this settler colonial ideology that the people who live there just need to
00:12:05be eliminated so that you and US investors can go in
00:12:09and bring their modern technology and progress and
00:12:13create a white utopia on the land of a
00:12:17white utopia for investors that is um on the
00:12:21lands where they have slaughtered and eliminated the population.
00:12:27Mr. Chomsing, would like to turn to Palestine for second here,
00:12:30where do you see the most significant parallels between the
00:12:34disposition of native Americans and the displacement of
00:12:38Palestinians today?
00:12:41Um, there are lots of very obvious
00:12:44parallels, that is the idea that white
00:12:48Europeans are the superior people, and
00:12:52that the people who live a territory. uh have no
00:12:55rights and um no rights to be
00:12:59there, no political rights, um, and
00:13:03that the the people who bring progress and as the
00:13:06Israelis say, make the desert bloom, are European
00:13:10foreigners who are going to come in with their um
00:13:13technology and bring superiority and remake a place
00:13:17without the people who um are living there
00:13:21when they arrived um and obviously the...
00:13:25um, the US relationship with Israel is, it has
00:13:29many different facets and many different reasons, but certainly the
00:13:33ideological compatibility the settler project
00:13:37is a big piece behind it. right,
00:13:41Alana, on indigenous people's day, what concrete steps do you
00:13:44think the US government should take to address these historical
00:13:48wrongs and from honoring treaty obligations and returning land
00:13:52to preserving um indigenous cultures and what accountability
00:13:55mechanisms could turn public recognition into meaningful
00:13:59justice, actually um, well if
00:14:03you're speaking about yeah the past for sure there's of
00:14:07course uh
00:14:08you know there legal obligations and we're thinking about reparations,
00:14:12it's something the UK government is being called up on
00:14:15increasingly, there's a great project in palestine as well
00:14:19working, i sort of prepared to speak also a bit more about current
00:14:22injustices and trying to prevent. and mitigate
00:14:26uh harms uh at the moment as well, if that's of interest to
00:14:30your listeners and viewers um on
00:14:34like AI warfare, autonomous weapons, but if that's a little
00:14:37bit separate and we free to to ignore that,
00:14:41guess
00:14:42the the common thread if i was to go into that is that even under these
00:14:45things and conventional conventional weapons
00:14:48which is has review conference next next month in Geneva
00:14:52trying to to to possibly...
00:14:55get get agreement to proceed to talks a treaty um
00:14:59is actually being stifled by the US uh, you know,
00:15:03130 states want some kind of
00:15:06treaty um setting limits or prohibiting
00:15:09this - lethal autonomous weapons, killer
00:15:13robots, that kind of threat that people can be killed now
00:15:16without human being making that
00:15:18decision, you know, obviously the
00:15:22US could be being more proactive, but it's hiding. i think behind
00:15:26it international humanitarian law kind of get
00:15:29out um and ultimately along with Russia and along with
00:15:33China seeking military leverage about.
00:15:37of uh actually building something that could meaningfully hopefully
00:15:41protect human beings into the future, not just thinking about the harm that's
00:15:45been caused in the past and that's incredibly concerning, i
00:15:49think it should be a concern to all of us that um something is
00:15:53fundamentally awful as you know killer
00:15:57robots is not even
00:15:59being uh
00:16:02prevented um so that's one example and then of course
00:16:06you could give ' more examples of on treaties and and
00:16:10you now law that it's that's quite literally being
00:16:14broken and ripped up and rewritten in front of our eyes by by the current
00:16:18US administration um of course
00:16:21yeah the great comments there on gaza the same
00:16:25things happening and of course
00:16:27you know by by the IDF and the Israeli government currently and I
00:16:31think it somehow as vagas this sounds that trying to make the
00:16:34connections between past you thinking about
00:16:38indigenous people's day and then current
00:16:41abuses, it just seems so clearly
00:16:44relatable to me, but maybe it's also in, but maybe
00:16:48it's also in as dark as it is, it's
00:16:52quite val, disturbed by this for very very long,
00:16:56disturbed by this for very very long time, and
00:16:58I hope more people are being able to also see and make those
00:17:01connections um themselves and I'd be very
00:17:05happy to talk to to you more or any... He wants to reach out to me.
00:17:09Right, allow me to bring in Miss Chomsky into the conversation. Mr. Miss
00:17:13Chomsky, how do settlement expansion, land confiscation
00:17:16and restrictions on movement help us understand settler
00:17:20colonialism as a continuing political process rather than
00:17:24merely a historical
00:17:25episode.
00:17:31Um, well, I would say there's several different ways that we see it playing
00:17:35out in the United States today. One is: with foreign policy, as we
00:17:39were just talking about, that is the ideologies that justify
00:17:42settler expansion, um, and
00:17:45the uh, the military
00:17:49strategies of settler expansion, um, still
00:17:53inform US foreign policy. um, the
00:17:57second area would be extractivism, and again we see
00:18:01that is native lands need to be made available
00:18:04for profit making. industrial
00:18:08extraction for the benefit of non-indigenous
00:18:12people, and we see that happening both inside the United States, that
00:18:16is native lands are still being taken for
00:18:20extractive industries in the United States as well as
00:18:23by US companies around the world, with this
00:18:27idea that indigenous peoples um aren't productively
00:18:31enough using their land, so it is justified for for
00:18:35people to go in and ' extract the resources of those
00:18:39lands. um, and finally, I
00:18:42also see it in U.S. immigration policy, that is
00:18:46most the immigrants who are being targeted
00:18:50right now, uh, and uh, I mean, the very
00:18:53idea that national borders need to restrict freedom of
00:18:57movement, um, we, it's, it's a kind of
00:19:01a global apartide system that the United States is
00:19:05enforcing that, um,
00:19:09people, predominantly people of color,
00:19:12people from the former colonies, even if the colonies are now
00:19:15independent, um, that the United States thinks of all of those
00:19:19people as indigenous people, a way, people of color who do
00:19:23not have a right to be in this country, and if they
00:19:27are, they need to be rounded up and detained, and
00:19:30that only white people should have freedom of movement, um, and
00:19:34that white people's mobility is something that all of us policies need
00:19:38to promote, and the mobility of people of color is something that all of
00:19:42our policies need to restrict, so in the
00:19:46border regime and the immigrant detention regime, I see very strong
00:19:49echos the reservations, the boarding
00:19:53schools, the genocides of indigenous peoples, and um,
00:19:57not to mention the fact that many the people coming from Latin America right now
00:20:01are in fact indigenous peoples. Right, Alana,
00:20:05why do some colonial atrocities? receive um
00:20:08widespread international recognition while others remain
00:20:12marginal in public education and also political
00:20:14debate. think i mean that's
00:20:18a brilliant question. i think
00:20:20a lot of
00:20:23it in my opinion is also based on
00:20:26who people sort of
00:20:30connect with or understand or have opportunities to learn
00:20:34from and of course you know the simple answer. probably
00:20:38the broad answer to your question is obviously racism and and the
00:20:42fact that
00:20:42you know people do inherently
00:20:45sympathizes um
00:20:48you dramatically with communities
00:20:52that they have already maybe come into contact with or feel like they understand
00:20:55more or um have kind of some kind of
00:20:59connection with and i think for
00:21:03obviously very many reasons that's deeply dangerous and destructive and
00:21:07we've seen the consequences of how you even that
00:21:11kind of separation can th
00:21:12need to humanization that can need to genocide um it can also
00:21:16lead you see we've seen i don't even how many...
00:21:20examples i could give you, but even in just the last few years,
00:21:24like um, probably virus will remember you
00:21:27the the russian invasion of Ukraine, and and of course
00:21:31that you know it's
00:21:33a terrible thing. was in um mosul at the
00:21:36time on
00:21:37the on the day, i remember speaking
00:21:39to to irakis and they're so so sympathetic, they've already been invaded,
00:21:43they understand, there was this solidarity, and i think
00:21:47what kind of upset people the most... including myself
00:21:51is also how like the media coverage the the
00:21:54invasion particularly i have today by us
00:21:58outlets was incredibly racist
00:22:02um and quite sort of referred to other states or people a very
00:22:05humanizing way so i remember some agents
00:22:09saying you this is a civilized society talking
00:22:12about kief and actually in
00:22:16friends
00:22:17who who are watching that in in in Baghdad saying to me
00:22:20how how outrageous and unfair and and so I think the thing that probably
00:22:24hurts in this quite almost more destructive is the fact that of course
00:22:28everyone sees the double standards you don't you can't really hide
00:22:31that um that's a very longwinded answer to
00:22:35say of course it's structural of course it's
00:22:39racism but it's also this this disconnection that we
00:22:42maybe have from each other and that's something that I think we're seeing more and more and more and more
00:22:46if I keep laboring the point but with algorithmic warfare. and
00:22:50it's not only the you know the on the military
00:22:54side, not seeing the human or the civilian or the civilian
00:22:58populations now, as I'm trying to try and write and explore more about
00:23:01having to almost show their civilian status as opposed to
00:23:05that being an obligation on military and how disturbing and horrific that
00:23:09is as well and dehumanizing and psychologically you
00:23:13know horrendous, but it's making
00:23:17us all more do human. organized in the sense
00:23:21that we are, even among lawyers, IHL lawyers,
00:23:24activists, well-meaning people are struggling to
00:23:28engage, I think with civilian
00:23:31harm caused by AI or algorithmic
00:23:35warfare or this kind of disperate way of conducting the same
00:23:39harm that's always been conducted, but through different mechanism, and we're
00:23:43all so focused now on the process as opposed to the
00:23:46consequence,
00:23:47and I think that's something we all need to think about
00:23:49and all check. because that shouldn't that should not
00:23:53be excuse and of course we can go and talk about the menab school strike and
00:23:56others, but the fact that so many of my in, i think
00:24:00profession have have jumped on that as a way to say no, it can't
00:24:04possibly have been a war crime, because because there was no intent or
00:24:07because the us didn't you know it was the technology and you
00:24:11know or uh of course feasible precautions weren't taken,
00:24:15but that's not necessarily the point the military, that's you know what what
00:24:19about this? what about maven? what about the wrong targeting
00:24:22data? right? actually, we don't know that for sure. the US
00:24:26doesn't come out with investigation. why are we so quick to jump on
00:24:30this idea that it wasn't a war crime? i don't think there's a
00:24:34single parent in mark who believes that was an
00:24:37AI accident. lot of people still don't even particularly understand how this
00:24:41technology works. like i spoke to another person recently
00:24:45whose family were who who found out the strike
00:24:49um again. the sun in Iraq may or may not have
00:24:52been uh result of AI decision support
00:24:55system um this yeah this thing called may the smart system and
00:24:59they're saying well what are they you know and okay that's
00:25:03a very sort of an example of of having to sort of think
00:25:07about explaining that but it's a very good question
00:25:11because for people on the receiving end of this it's not
00:25:15stratch it's not algorithmic it's not AI it's still you
00:25:18know um myself, guess my point is, i think
00:25:22we all need to think about how talking about current
00:25:25harm, to not fall into the historic patterns of
00:25:29harm, and i've really value the opportunity to think and talk
00:25:32about um on indigenous people's day, because do see these
00:25:36patterns being repeated, and hope i've explained it a way that's not too
00:25:40abstract, but i'm very keen to again, like i said, connect with people and
00:25:44Aron and please reach out to me, um, and also it's lovely
00:25:47to yeah, hear
00:25:48the the other speaker, thank you, for me
00:25:52right, miss anana travers, miss Aviva Chomsky, it was
00:25:56indeed a pleasure to have you both on this special occasion and on this
00:26:00rolling coverage and with that we come to... conclusion of this part, but let us
00:26:04continue a rolling coverage the indigenous people's day by
00:26:07reviewing the US atrocities against other nations, the ones that
00:26:11resemble the crimes against the indigenous people, from attack
00:26:15hitting a school in the southern city of Minab, as my guest just
00:26:19explained to an act of aggression a sports hall in Lamed to
00:26:23a strike targeting a wedding party in Sirick, the recent us Israely
00:26:27war on Iran contains manifestations the definition of
00:26:31crimes against humanity. One of those attacks was a strike under Denna
00:26:34Frigate in international waters that killed more than 100
00:26:38people. Let us now watch an interview with an Iranian woman whose
00:26:42husband Bahman Isfandi was about the warship and was
00:26:46killed in the attack.
00:26:49Hello and welcome. It was on March the 4th this year that the Iranian
00:26:53navy frigate IRS Dana was torpedoed
00:26:57and sunk by the US military in the Indian Ocean. The
00:27:01attack was launched and the US in his roody war in Iran, it took the lives
00:27:05of over 100 crew members, this act of
00:27:08aggression was among a serious of US war crimes against
00:27:12Iranians, now in our studio we are hosting the wife
00:27:16of an Iranian sailor who was killed in this
00:27:18attack, um, Miss Malihe Pahlewanizade,
00:27:22wife to murtered Bahman Espandieri, thank you so much for your
00:27:26time today, my first question is, the dinner worship
00:27:30entered the international waters, at the invitation the Indian
00:27:34army to participate in this training exercise. It
00:27:38is important to note that the ship's primary purpose was
00:27:42training and participation in this
00:27:44exercise. Um, in fact, they were
00:27:48there just at the invitation the Indian army, again I want
00:27:51emphasize in this point, please explain the attack to us
00:27:55and what happened on that day and what you have been going through
00:27:59ever since. Bismillahirrahmanirrahim.
00:28:12merciful, as you mentioned, my husband took
00:28:17the the part official most invitation review international 2026 in fleet exercise at the Indian
00:28:21Navy for a peace and friendship drill, but unfortunately
00:28:25the main issue is that while our husbands had gone there for
00:28:29training and to enhance scientific and maritime skills.
00:28:33"they were faced not with a military confrontation, but
00:28:37with what i believe was a war crime. why a war
00:28:40crime? because under international law and
00:28:43conventions, training vessels are not supposed to be
00:28:47targeted. our husbands had gone there to improve their professional
00:28:51skills, yet they came under attack. this
00:28:55shows that the enemy knows no limits in its aggression
00:28:59and it's willing to target even the real..." knowledge and
00:29:03peace, and it doesn't matter what the target is,
00:29:07their only goal is destruction and achieving their objectives
00:29:10even at the cost of violating international
00:29:13law. I lost my husband a mission of
00:29:16peace. I have six-year-old son who cannot
00:29:20understand why this happened in a world where a child should be living
00:29:24in peace and security, immersed in the joys of
00:29:28childhood, he's face with one heartbreaking
00:29:31question: "if dad went away for training and a piece
00:29:35exercise, then why was he killed? and
00:29:39honestly, i have no answers for him. as a
00:29:42wife of a martered sailor, i am faced with a profound
00:29:46injustice, violation of principles and laws
00:29:50that he simply cannot comprehend. unfortunately, our
00:29:53husbands had gone there for training, but instead they became
00:29:57victims of a war crime and betrayal of gas who
00:30:01had come.
00:30:13and we had other similar attacks uh on the first day the war on
00:30:17the school in the city of minob that killed
00:30:19168 civilians on the first day the
00:30:23war, february 28th, most of those people were
00:30:27killed were children. um, despite these acts of
00:30:30aggression, Iran stood...