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00:00:00welcome to a new episode of the Political
00:00:04war in Forum. In this war, many positions have changed,
00:00:07and the Justice
00:00:10aware of what and Equality Movement
00:00:11The first stop in this is one of the most changing its position. The
00:00:16years of war began on the lives, then it took up arms alongside the armed forces,
00:00:20and today it says
00:00:24that its battle is a defense of the state, and that the end
00:00:27of the road must be one army
00:00:31alone. But here, specifically, the
00:00:34questions begin: if there
00:00:37is one army, what will happen
00:00:40to the armies of the movements? And if the Justice and Equality Movement
00:00:43is heading towards becoming a political
00:00:47party, then why the rifle,
00:00:50and when will it put it down? And what
00:00:55first. The movement remains of the Juba agreement after a war that brought
00:00:58pressure in the armed movements back to the battlefield? Once
00:01:02again, the questions of the present
00:01:04that gathered at the tonight lead us, in one way or another, also to the past,
00:01:08to 2008, to Omdurman
00:01:11specifically, and to
00:01:14and the military component remained a man who was at the heart
00:01:14asked them in one of one of the most brutal stations of the
00:01:18occurred in Darfur from Sudanese conflict. Between that day and today,
00:01:22an experience in which he spent years
00:01:26entire nineties. And this, in of his life behind bars and lived under a death sentence.
00:01:30Then he came out to find Sudan facing
00:01:34that position. They spoke with the ambassadors. The new transformations and another war,
00:01:37and questions that end
00:01:40after. I welcome my guest,
00:01:43Dr. Abdelaziz Noor Asher,
00:01:46advisor to the head of the Justice and Equality Movement. Welcome, Doctor. Welcome, brother
00:01:49Talal. And greetings to you
00:01:52and the brothers present with us,
00:01:56people used to farm. They would meet in and to the esteemed viewers. Welcome.
00:01:59I want to say that I welcome the mysterious man. This is how
00:02:02he describes you, and your political opponents describe you as a man
00:02:05Perhaps for hundreds of years who rarely appears, sparing in his
00:02:10arms shoulder to shoulder appearances. And perhaps he is even called, in the manner of adventurers,
00:02:13"Leader Zero," and the keeper of Dr. Jibril Ibrahim's secrets,
00:02:16alongside Sultan Bishara Suleiman
00:02:18Therefore, it and others. Welcome, Doctor.
00:02:22Welcome, we are happy to extend a welcome in this episode
00:02:26to my esteemed guests on the commentary platform. I welcome Mr. Abdel Hafeez.
00:02:31Koddary, Deputy Head of the Justice and Equality Movement
00:02:34and Secretary of the Northern Region. Welcome.
00:02:37Welcome, my dear brother, and all the brothers in television. We thank God that we are now
00:02:41in the television building after what it has been
00:02:45subjected to by the
00:02:49that there were indeed embassies involved Janjaweed or the militias. You saw the extent of the destruction, the extent of the destruction.
00:02:52The welcome also extends to my guest, Mr.
00:02:56Soufiane Al-Basha,
00:02:59The group that participated in Deputy Head of the Justice and Equality Movement, Secretary of the Central Region. Welcome.
00:03:03pressure on us, but we rejected this Welcome. the And peace, mercy, and blessings of God be upon you. And I am happy today
00:03:07to be a participant in this
00:03:11forum, with the presence
00:03:13of Dr. Asher and Mr. Abdel
00:03:16by an external Hafeez in one of
00:03:21Sudan, we would the platforms for deliberation and political engagement.
00:03:23And I believe this is a new stage
00:03:26are the ones who announced that that has now begun in Sudan. And I hope that this
00:03:30episode will be one of the episodes
00:03:34different regions of Sudan, from that add
00:03:36to the political engagement in Sudan. God bless you. Thank you. I also, in particular,
00:03:40and on behalf of the program's family, thank you for your eagerness to attend from
00:03:43Al Jazeera and for bearing the hardship of travel despite your
00:03:47fever. I ask God to grant you a speedy recovery, God willing. Thank you.
00:03:50A welcome also extends to the commentators tonight,
00:03:55in Darfur. In to the debaters on the discussion platform. I welcome my
00:03:58guest, Mr.
00:04:02that They took place in the Nuba Mountains, and they took place in Amir Abdelmajid, the journalist, and the general editor of Al-Sahafa newspaper. Welcome, Mr.
00:04:06agreement Amir. Our presence today,
00:04:09And and our presence today in the spotlight,
00:04:12and as you said, Doctor,
00:04:16rarely appearing,
00:04:18and the talk about the issues. And I hope
00:04:21that people will be able
00:04:24to address the concerns
00:04:27of the street, in addition to
00:04:30the concerns of the movement itself, God willing. Welcome. Are you ready tonight?
00:04:34I am ready. I have no problem with
00:04:38I mean, to go into journalists represented today by Amir. Also,
00:04:41the welcome extends to the young participant
00:04:45and Equality Movement in with us always in the program, Hassan Abdel
00:04:47Rahman, researcher in international relations and specialist in
00:04:51colonialism. geopolitical studies. Hassan, strongly raised as a state welcome. Welcome, Professor
00:04:54Talal, and welcome to the family of Justice
00:04:57peace forces coming and Equality. And I hope it will be a wonderful episode, full of information
00:05:01and details that will be important for the political
00:05:05arena and for all the Sudanese people, God willing. Of course, we were keen
00:05:08on your participation because you say
00:05:10component was closer to reaching peace than that political figures like this never give us a chance
00:05:13for a confrontation between you as a young generation and them. Today, the
00:05:17opportunity is fully open to you, God willing. Okay,
00:05:20Dr. Abdelaziz, what should we start with?
00:05:23meeting, after more than 20
00:05:28arms, war,
00:05:31peace, and power, then again
00:05:34a new war, has the Justice and Equality Movement
00:05:38reached the state for which it took up arms
00:05:42effectively? This is a good opportunity for
00:05:45in-depth dialogue about the fundamental issues in the country,
00:05:49including the political
00:05:50reality.
00:05:53In this context, the movement's presence
00:05:57as a political actor in the political
00:06:00arena comes. The movement did not start
00:06:04by taking up arms
00:06:07is originally a movement for political and social change in Sudan,
00:06:10and it started with
00:06:13dialogue, but in
00:06:17light of the stubbornness that existed under the former regime, it led to reaching a stage
00:06:20where the movement's leaders
00:06:23were subjected to
00:06:26violence
00:06:29from the authorities at that time, to prisons,
00:06:32to displacement, to pursuit.
00:06:35Therefore, the movement finally resorted
00:06:38to the option of armed struggle.
00:06:42This was after the door to dialogue was closed. Yes, therefore, the movement's
00:06:46project is originally a political project, not a military
00:06:49project. The military project came later. We were forced
00:06:53into it. And this is why it is natural
00:06:56for the movement to return to the original
00:06:59project, which is political discourse
00:07:03and political dialogue as a means of social and political change in Sudan.
00:07:06Who forced you? The former regime.
00:07:10Of course, we started
00:07:12the dialogue. And the dialogue led to addressing very
00:07:16fundamental issues, issues of marginalization, issues
00:07:19of imbalance of power and wealth in Sudan. All
00:07:23these issues, the regime at that time
00:07:26was not prepared to discuss.
00:07:31was common in political circles that whoever
00:07:34wants to confront us should go
00:07:37and take up arms. That is why
00:07:40it was not the Justice and Equality Movement.
00:07:43I mean, those who took up arms before us were in the
00:07:46Democratic National Alliance, and before the movement,
00:07:49there was the
00:07:53SPLM and the movements that arose, and all
00:07:57these movements, in my opinion,
00:08:00were a natural development
00:08:04of the civil rights movement
00:08:07that began in the 1950s, as
00:08:11you know. Demands
00:08:15for federalism emerged
00:08:17in southern Sudan, and this was the main
00:08:21issue
00:08:23that was raised at the
00:08:25Juba conference in 1947, the Nuba
00:08:29Mountains Union, before the Nuba Mountains Union. The Beja conference was
00:08:32in 1958. The Nuba Mountains Union was in
00:08:361959. The Darfur Renaissance Front was in
00:08:391964. And all of these
00:08:42formed demands from
00:08:46the west, and from Kordofan, and from the south, and from
00:08:49the east. But by persisting in not
00:08:52responding to these legitimate
00:08:54demands,
00:08:56these movements later transformed
00:08:59these civil, societal demands
00:09:03related to development and
00:09:06stability at that time,
00:09:09all transformed into
00:09:14the East, and they took place in Darfur,
00:09:17and there were also many
00:09:21other military attempts other than
00:09:25these
00:09:27armed struggle movements. There were also attempts
00:09:30to change power by force, such as the coups
00:09:34that Sudan witnessed. And therefore, I believe
00:09:37that the background of this matter
00:09:40is related to our ability
00:09:43and the generation that governed Sudan at that time to respond
00:09:46to the vital demands
00:09:50of dialogue, and managing dialogue,
00:09:52and responding to the
00:09:55entitlements
00:09:59that were
00:10:01that emerged from
00:10:04And many
00:10:07of the countries that emerged from colonialism were able
00:10:10to meet the demands of their people for development and well-being, and were able
00:10:14to find a path to national unity, and
00:10:18thereby were able to avoid
00:10:22internal wars and stabilized. I mean, there are many models
00:10:25in Africa and in the Third World that were able
00:10:28to respond to these societal
00:10:32and political demands.
00:10:35But of course, this era was called the post-
00:10:38colonial era, which is an important era. And later, of course,
00:10:42unfortunately, many countries witnessed military
00:10:45coups
00:10:49repeatedly in many countries. I mean, I believe that this issue
00:10:53is an issue related to the social history of Sudan
00:10:57to a large extent. Yes, movements that begin with demands,
00:11:00dialogue is absent, the voice
00:11:02of the rifle rises.
00:11:05Perhaps the Juba peace finally came with a different vision
00:11:09that made the movement temporarily put down its weapons
00:11:12and conclude an agreement that led to the
00:11:16Juba peace. Throughout the life
00:11:19of the movement since its establishment
00:11:22in 2001. And of course,
00:11:25the idea started before this,
00:11:28before 2001. And the movement
00:11:31was established in 2001, and the armed
00:11:34struggle began in 2002. Throughout
00:11:37this period, until we reached the Juba
00:11:41peace station, the movement did not close any
00:11:44opportunity for dialogue and negotiation.
00:11:48There were many rounds in Abuja, in Dar es Salaam, in
00:11:51Tanzania, in Tripoli, in Abéché, and
00:11:56in Doha. All these
00:11:59forums were responded to
00:12:02by the movement, but the regime
00:12:06at that time was not ready to reach a real
00:12:09peace agreement. Therefore, the movement continued until
00:12:12we reached this agreement, which came
00:12:15after the fall of the former regime. But you didn't
00:12:18get a break. I mean, seven months later, you found
00:12:21yourselves now facing a new war after you broke
00:12:25neutrality in November 2023.
00:12:29During the seven-month period, the movement was neutral, and then
00:12:32it moved to taking up
00:12:35with the armed forces.
00:12:38Of course, it is natural that the movement,
00:12:42when it returned to Khartoum
00:12:45and to the homeland, its concern was to participate in building
00:12:49the homeland, consolidating
00:12:53peace, and achieving
00:12:55stability, because
00:12:58the war, I mean,
00:13:01certainly affected everything
00:13:05throughout 20 years. Therefore, it is natural
00:13:08that the thinking was in a different direction, but
00:13:11before the last war, brother Talal,
00:13:15there was
00:13:19the political crisis that was ongoing.
00:13:25transitional period, the Freedom
00:13:28and Change, did not have
00:13:32a desire to reach peace
00:13:34with us.
00:13:37We spent about a month in Addis Ababa before
00:13:40the Juba peace agreement, and they refused
00:13:43to reach with us a formula
00:13:47that would allow the armed forces to enter the country and be
00:13:50part of the political process. What was their argument? Their argument
00:13:54without without
00:13:56I mean,
00:13:59there was no clear argument or clear justification.
00:14:03But while we were discussing
00:14:07a common vision or
00:14:10debating in Addis Ababa with most of the Freedom
00:14:13and Change leaders, the Political
00:14:17Declaration was announced,
00:14:18and the Political
00:14:22Declaration was the foundation upon
00:14:25which the issue of the Constitutional Document was built.
00:14:29Therefore, it was a rejection
00:14:31of the entire issue of peace. That is why
00:14:35we resorted to the Juba agreement. It was possible
00:14:39to shorten the time and the
00:14:42period and reach peace
00:14:45more quickly, but
00:14:48the rejection and abstention of the Forces of Freedom and Change at that time. But why,
00:14:51Doctor, when at that time it was a demand
00:14:55for the people? Why was it rejected? It is the same prevailing
00:14:59understanding now. Why were they insisting that this framework agreement
00:15:02should be a limited agreement for a small
00:15:05force? Why were they driven by the idea of monopolizing power
00:15:09and they believed that overnight,
00:15:12they found power, and therefore they were not
00:15:15willing to share this transitional period.
00:15:19That is why they rejected
00:15:22and being part of the transitional period itself.
00:15:28That is why we spent a whole year in Juba,
00:15:31and in fact, the military
00:15:35the other group, the Forces of Freedom and Change. You make this testimony
00:15:39in favor of the military component despite the war between you. Yes,
00:15:42yes, despite that, without them, we would not have reached peace.
00:15:46So they were closer to reaching
00:15:50peace with us. And this led to the Juba
00:15:53peace agreement. And when we came, we
00:15:56formed the government with the three
00:16:00components: the military
00:16:03component,
00:16:05the Forces of Freedom and Change,
00:16:09and the Juba peace forces. And this
00:16:12triangle, of course, witnessed
00:16:16an amendment to the Constitutional Document, and
00:16:19the Juba peace forces were added.
00:16:23And the partnership became tripartite. And this
00:16:25partnership did not continue due to the conflict
00:16:29that arose between the Forces of Freedom
00:16:32and Change, the military component, and the military component. And this led
00:16:35to
00:16:38the gatherings
00:16:42palace and led to the October
00:16:45decisions, and thus the departure of the Forces of Freedom and Change.
00:16:48And the peace forces
00:16:51in power.
00:16:54And of course, the
00:16:57so-called framework agreement
00:17:01was designed, and this is very important, to bring this group
00:17:04back to power by means of
00:17:08the embassies or what
00:17:09was called the Quartet at that time.
00:17:14These embassies were determined very strongly
00:17:17to bring these people back
00:17:21through this vision that was designed.
00:17:23And
00:17:25they were
00:17:27refusing the idea of
00:17:30expanding the base of participation,
00:17:33despite the other's
00:17:37vision that expanding the base of participation
00:17:40in the transitional period would lead to the stability of the government
00:17:44and the stability of the transitional period, and then
00:17:47the transition towards democratic transformation. This matter was not
00:17:50acceptable to them, and therefore it led to the political deadlock
00:17:54at that time, and led to
00:17:58I mean, the polarization
00:18:01of the Rapid Support Forces
00:18:07from the military component by those same embassies
00:18:11and the creation of an alliance between
00:18:15the Rapid Support Forces and the Forces of Freedom and Change. And this ultimately
00:18:18led to the outbreak of war due to external
00:18:22support, and due to your reports that you had
00:18:27in inviting us to the dialogue. They asked us to participate in this government
00:18:30and share, and we refused this. I mean,
00:18:33in these ambassadors, the Quartet ambassadors were
00:18:37present and they were insistent and they exercised
00:18:41agreement because the agreement was made by embassies.
00:18:44We cannot accept
00:18:47that our national will
00:18:50be managed
00:18:53force. Therefore, we rejected this. And those who
00:18:57accepted this, and those who insisted
00:19:00on this,
00:19:03either you accept this agreement or
00:19:07war. And in the end, the entire Sudanese people
00:19:11are witnessing a real and declared
00:19:14presence. I mean, videos exist that were
00:19:17one of the arguments that were used after that, so
00:19:20that they were the ones who wanted to ignite the war. You said
00:19:23a witness was fabricated. From where, according to
00:19:26your testimony? You, the media people, can distinguish
00:19:30between what is fabricated and what is real. I mean, this is
00:19:33easy. This is completely consistent with
00:19:36their position and their insistence
00:19:39yes, this
00:19:44must be implemented.
00:19:47some forces entered
00:19:51and exercised immense pressure on us,
00:19:54but we rejected this. And we are witnesses to that. And we are witnesses to what
00:19:58was said and the insistence of these Quartet
00:20:00embassies on the importance, on the necessity
00:20:03of implementing this framework agreement. We are witnesses to that
00:20:07completely. And you are in agreement with the military component. I
00:20:11just do not want to
00:20:15details of where these meetings took place,
00:20:18in which embassy, in which embassy
00:20:21is currently this Dr. Asher.
00:20:23This is very important. These are
00:20:27occurrences. These are occurrences, and there has also been a change.
00:20:31I mean, I do not want after the change has happened,
00:20:34how, I mean, the general atmosphere has changed.
00:20:38After these countries, their position has changed now to
00:20:41a positive position, always supporting the unity of Sudan.
00:20:45Therefore, we do not want to hold them accountable
00:20:48for what happened at that time. It is better
00:20:51that these embassies are known and the role of the Quartet
00:20:55in designing and making
00:20:58the framework agreement was known, and all this is known.
00:21:01I mean, it was live on air.
00:21:04You don't want to disclose more. This explains everything
00:21:07to the mysterious person I told you you always store
00:21:10secrets. I want to use this episode to the greatest extent
00:21:14possible and get details from you
00:21:17for history. You are now talking about something
00:21:21that is surrounded by a lot of ambiguity and a lot of facts are distorted. The viewer
00:21:25who is watching us now also says, "I hear Asher's words, and I hear
00:21:29different words from the Forces of Freedom and Change, and I hear different words from the military component,
00:21:32and each sings to their own tune." So sing
00:21:35to us about the real tune. I mean, as you were
00:21:38an eyewitness. Brother Talal, there is no more singing than that. I mean, these
00:21:42countries are known, and the Quartet was known, and they exerted
00:21:48the framework agreement. And they were the ones who insisted,
00:21:51and they were the ones who convinced. He was strongly
00:21:55attached to them. All of them without
00:21:58exception, the Quartet, all of them were
00:22:01insistent. And we even
00:22:04of the sessions, why are you insisting
00:22:07that you knew
00:22:10a group was present? The experience was a failure. They
00:22:14participated in power and failed to
00:22:16manage the state due to their lack of experience and their inability
00:22:20to deal with Sudan's issues. No one was defending
00:22:24ambassadors were silent. They were present. They were present. We ask
00:22:27the ambassadors, why do you insist that
00:22:30instead of us presenting a government that is based on a broad
00:22:34base and wide participation of the Sudanese people, this government
00:22:38calls for continuity
00:22:42and greater permanence than a government of a minority and a small
00:22:45group of activists? And you insist that they
00:22:48be so clear? And they were present, as I said. All
00:22:51of them were present.
00:22:53And
00:22:56an ambassador from the Quartet ambassadors
00:23:00was present, and we spoke
00:23:03to them about this, and
00:23:06they did not answer. They were concerned about these
00:23:09ambassadors, and the ambassadors spoke on their behalf. This was
00:23:13strange. I mean, we are in a dialogue between
00:23:16Sudanese, between Sudanese political forces, and the dialogue
00:23:20is in their presence. They
00:23:22are people whose will has been taken away. And this is, of course,
00:23:26one of the additional
00:23:29motives that made us reject the framework agreement, that this
00:23:33is a foreign product intended to control
00:23:36the administration
00:23:37of the country
00:23:40in a way that exploits these weak
00:23:43elements and exploits
00:23:47I mean, considering that they are the political force and
00:23:50the people who can run the country,
00:23:54and therefore they lack real will. This is one
00:23:57of the things that made us reject the framework agreement. If the
00:24:01framework agreement had been a comprehensive agreement and included the main
00:24:05political forces and included the broad formation of Sudan
00:24:08and the broad diversity of have agreed and we would have exited
00:24:12the political crisis with an agreement. But
00:24:16the framework agreement was a small and limited
00:24:19agreement, intended only to bring back
00:24:22those who left power to serve foreign agendas. I've spent a lot of time on this topic
00:24:26because there are very important statements. I will continue
00:24:29to follow up on it, but I want to move
00:24:32to Mr. Abdel Hafeez.
00:24:35Kedgrie. I will be transparent and clear,
00:24:38and perhaps I will adopt the voice of many viewers who are watching
00:24:41the episode. I was surprised
00:24:44that you are the Deputy Head of the Justice and Equality Movement. Honestly,
00:24:48if we are talking about transparent dialogue, as Dr. Asher said, let's
00:24:51start it in this episode. For me, it is very striking,
00:24:55and for many who may be watching the episode now, that he is now
00:24:58a person from River Nile, with no connection to Darfur,
00:25:02or to the demands of the movement, or
00:25:05and the same applies to Mr.
00:25:07Soufiane. What is your relationship with
00:25:11the Justice and Equality Movement? I mean, is the project so attractive?
00:25:15Are we facing a political structure that requires
00:25:18us to rally around this movement as a comprehensive political party?
00:25:22Please forgive me for this question, but I assure you that
00:25:25it is a question of many who are watching this episode, and I want to be
00:25:29completely transparent with you. Please go ahead.
00:25:32First of all, I joined the Justice 2017,
00:25:35approximately.
00:25:37I mean, before the fall
00:25:40of the former regime. So where were you
00:25:43at that time? I was a civil servant
00:25:46and responsible for the peace program director.
00:25:50I worked in DDR. I worked in peace initiatives before that,
00:25:53and I was aware, honestly,
00:25:57of all the problems that
00:25:59Sudan was facing, whether
00:26:03during the first
00:26:06the South. I was,
00:26:10I mean, in working circles,
00:26:13was happening in the war and its repercussions,
00:26:16and also what was happening in the Darfur war.
00:26:19It took place in Darfur after 2003, approximately.
00:26:23And though the war was in Darfur, I am very
00:26:26familiar with the details of the beginning
00:26:29of the war in Darfur, and we know
00:26:32that it almost started after
00:26:351986,
00:26:38approximately. Resolution No. 20 in the Constituent
00:26:41Assembly was issued
00:26:44during the government of Sadiq al-Mahdi. What did the resolution
00:26:47say? It established the Sudanese
00:26:50Peace Forces and was established by
00:26:54the Minister of Defense at that time.
00:26:57And it might have been intended to support
00:27:01the army, like the current Shura. This was an embryo
00:27:04at that time. Yes, indeed, at that time it was done,
00:27:08and he armed
00:27:11certain issues that were
00:27:14then the nucleus
00:27:18for the calamities that
00:27:21the armed robbery that took place from approximately the late
00:27:24eighties and continued until the
00:27:28the end, had a significant impact.
00:27:31An armed movement, and after that, the community was
00:27:35divided. The community, after Darfur was
00:27:38one thing, a single community,
00:27:41the community of Arabs, the community of African
00:27:44tribes, all of them were one interwoven
00:27:48and intermarried thing, and they were living as one.
00:27:51These people used to herd
00:27:54sheep, and these
00:27:58seasons and exchange benefits, common interests, and Darfur was,
00:28:02by the way, one of the safest lands of God, absolutely.
00:28:07in the past, until the eighties. This is true. Yes, until the eighties,
00:28:11Darfur's ancient history was one of the safest lands
00:28:14of God, a very safe country, and there was no
00:28:17weapons, no conflict, no fighting, etc. Rather, it
00:28:21used to supply the holy lands
00:28:24with Sultan Ali Dinar's caravan, and it used
00:28:28to supply the entire Islamic world
00:28:30with written copies of the Quran. Sultan Ali Dinar's caravan, and even
00:28:34before him, before Ali Dinar, the
00:28:37caravan used to carry more than a thousand written
00:28:41copies of the Holy Quran annually. by the hands of
00:28:44the Juniya. Of course, you say Juniya in Darfur. Juniya
00:28:47means that his ancestors, up to the 11th generation,
00:28:51must have been memorizers of the Book of God. That's what a Juniya
00:28:54is, but the term Juniya, I mean, the meaning
00:28:57of this term Juniya, but with an
00:28:59exception. All this work
00:29:02happened. I will prove to you that security was complete
00:29:06and very deep. It was not available anywhere
00:29:09in the world, and a country
00:29:12that was living on this image. This calamity happened,
00:29:15and I personally am very transparent about the reason.
00:29:19I am not here. I hold the Umma Party responsible. The
00:29:22Umma Party, you brought me back to '86 with Dar Hummel
00:29:26Party. I am very transparent in these matters,
00:29:30and I do not try at all to give anything because this history should not
00:29:33be attributed to me. It tells the present. If you do not
00:29:37set this history straight in its place, it will cause confusion
00:29:40for future generations. So that's why I will speak clearly. After that, the Umma
00:29:44Party has the historical responsibility, the historical responsibility for the armed looting
00:29:48that happened in Darfur, or it was perhaps
00:29:51the prelude to the war that happened after,
00:29:54approximately 2003,
00:29:57the end, it happened, a matter of
00:30:01burning, looting, and attacking many villages
00:30:04that were destroyed. And now most of the original inhabitants of
00:30:08Darfur, I say this because I am not being diplomatic. This is a matter of testimony,
00:30:12testimony before God and history. And God will ask
00:30:15us about it. And if we do not say the right thing and give testimony
00:30:19so that the Sudanese people know these meanings, this is harsh, very harsh talk, but we have
00:30:23to say it. It is also a historical party and a party that has its base and popularity,
00:30:26and so on. They bear responsibility. As if it was the nucleus,
00:30:30the Janjaweed was created by the Umma Party. Let me tell you,
00:30:33the beginning, the beginning of the Janjaweed, frankly, it started,
00:30:37it did not start, by the way, after.