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00:00:02I am Darío Claim in Montevideo, we are
00:00:05CNN. Forum with Senate candidate James
00:00:08Talarico, a face-to-face meeting with voters, unfiltered, unedited,
00:00:12will the Democratic hopeful win in a Republican
00:00:15state? CNN forum with James
00:00:18Talarico on Wednesday on
00:00:20CNN.
00:00:25We are CNN, the world leader in
00:00:28news.
00:00:43Hello, welcome to Mexico pina, it's a pleasure to greet you on this occasion to address a
00:00:47topic that affects all of us who live in cities, in large
00:00:51cities, not only in Spain, where the
00:00:54crisis has broken out, of course, the housing
00:00:57crisis, following an event that was already brewing.
00:01:00It is important for young people to protest and the case of Mari Carmen has unleashed everything
00:01:04we have seen, that is, much larger protests,
00:01:08governmental actions, reactions, the death of
00:01:11Marie Carmen, unfortunately,
00:01:15as a result of her eviction and, well, early elections requested by the Spanish
00:01:18Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez, as a result of all this, we are going to talk about the issue, where we are
00:01:22right now in terms of
00:01:24market does not work like the tortilla housing in Latin America, in large cities, because I tell you, this issue
00:01:27was already brewing with different manifestations,
00:01:31gentrification on the one hand, lack of access, high cost of
00:01:34housing, and we have a group of specialists who will help us
00:01:40sacralization of understand the phenomenon a little. This afternoon we are joined by María del Pilar Álvarez, architect, urban planner,
00:01:43academic at the Ibero-American University,
00:01:46thank you, how are you, thank you, Silvia Emmanuel, and
00:01:49she is regional coordinator of the Latin American office of the International Coalition for Habitat, Silvia,
00:01:53thank you, welcome, thank you for the invitation,
00:01:57we are joined by, lawyer, master in human rights and
00:02:01democratization from the Externado University of Colombia, thank you for being with
00:02:04us, welcome Carla, thank you for being here remotely and thank you for joining
00:02:08this panel, Silvia, let's see, the problem has many
00:02:12aspects, uh, lack of access to housing, I think that is the main one, from
00:02:16there many other things are triggered in different manifestations and yes,
00:02:20let's say that in recent years we have effectively seen, as you well said,
00:02:23this great housing crisis brewing, which is something that has
00:02:27become very evident in countries like Spain and
00:02:30Italy, but it also obviously has its
00:02:34effects, its reflections here, and we have talked a lot
00:02:37about the fact that in recent years what we have seen for different
00:02:40reasons has been the disconnection that has been
00:02:43created between housing prices and salaries,
00:02:47so a very recent report by the United
00:02:52crimes related Nations, UN-Habitat, a report on cities, tells us that this
00:02:55relationship between housing price and income in
00:02:582010 was, for example, 9.5, in
00:03:022023 it was already 11.7%.
00:03:0411.7%.
00:03:07It is important to see that in 2010 we had already passed the great housing
00:03:11bubble crisis that was mainly experienced in the United States and Europe,
00:03:15even so, we had a
00:03:18slightly closer relationship between
00:03:21housing prices and salaries. What I
00:03:25would say today, as many specialists say, is that this
00:03:28disconnection leads precisely to housing that is always
00:03:32more unattainable, always more
00:03:35difficult to buy, to rent, to
00:03:38remain where people work. This in Mexico City is
00:03:42esto en la ciudad de México se
00:03:45the city and all reflected very much in the fact that we still have jobs
00:03:48concentrated in the center, in large
00:03:52cities, and most people live 2
00:03:56hours away because the price of housing, which is obviously
00:03:58linked to the price of land, is unattainable. That is
00:04:02a little bit, let's say, the situation we are in
00:04:06right now. It is a fundamentally urban phenomenon of
00:04:09urban hyperconcentration, it's not,
00:04:12another vision, which is may I answer, it's a phenomenon
00:04:15that's not just one aspect, there's the
00:04:19situation with the housing crisis and other
00:04:22phenomena around this. In
00:04:25this sense, it's a structural problem and
00:04:28being a structural problem, it's not only the
00:04:32concentration of employment in city centers, where
00:04:35it implies a mobility of
00:04:38the vast majority of those who work, millions of people towards city
00:04:42centers, speaking not only of Mexico City but also of other
00:04:45urban centers, but there's also the issue
00:04:49of, uh, precisely the distribution of land use,
00:04:52there's the issue of real estate pressure, there's the
00:04:56issue of, uh, precisely social
00:04:59justice towards the right to have decent
00:05:03discussed is how to address the issue of already an experience, the cradle of housing, it's a multi- factorial phenomenon,
00:05:07definitely, and right now, what is
00:05:10very striking is how at this moment, it's not
00:05:14only that this housing situation is exploding, but
00:05:17also that from a global
00:05:20point of view, this issue is not
00:05:23exclusive to "poor"
00:05:26countries, in quotes, because I don't like that
00:05:30term at all, but many times it is said that the problem of cities and
00:05:33the scarcity and housing crisis is for countries
00:05:37that have less, and no, the problem is global and
00:05:40it is impacting in a very special way
00:05:44Europe, Asia,
00:05:47Oceania, in Sydney they also have a big problem in
00:05:50this regard, and of course in the United States, so it is a
00:05:54multifactorial and very structural problem, yes, it is concentrated in urban areas,
00:05:57fundamentally, no, well, the thing is
00:06:00that it can be, and this is also
00:06:04often misunderstood, the issue that the problem of housing and the housing crisis is
00:06:07a quantitative phenomenon, that is, they are not building
00:06:11enough houses,
00:06:14and therefore there is a housing deficit,
00:06:16exactly,
00:06:19and what is social housing, what is affordable housing,
00:06:22and that's where the problem of housing
00:06:26affordability comes from, how much of the
00:06:28family income is being allocated
00:06:32to rent, that's one of the things that is
00:06:35currently making it impossible for
00:06:39young people in Europe, what is happening is that
00:06:42generationally, young people do not have this
00:06:45hope of family emancipation
00:06:48because what young people
00:06:50earn is not enough to
00:06:54pay for rent, or they spend 90%
00:06:57of their income on rent, giving up their
00:07:00jobs, and a very peculiar social phenomenon is happening
00:07:04right now, that young men and
00:07:07women in Europe are emancipating from their
00:07:11homes after 30
00:07:14years because there's no way that with their
00:07:17work income they can afford it, and something similar is happening here in Mexico,
00:07:20yes, it's also being recorded, let's see, Carla, we want your point of view
00:07:23as well, well, to summarize what has already been said,
00:07:27it is evidently a multifactorial phenomenon, therefore there
00:07:31is no single solution, but
00:07:34rather solutions, it is not possible to understand the housing crisis
00:07:37even with only one manifestation of its problems, such as the
00:07:41issue of rent or the price of buying a house, which yes,
00:07:45of course, is a fundamental part, but the housing crisis also
00:07:48covers other aspects, such as, for example, we were
00:07:52seeing a few weeks ago the whole issue of the
00:07:56evictions that began to occur in Mexico City, the whole issue of real
00:07:59estate mafias, uh, the whole issue of
00:08:04to housing and property, as well as other types of
00:08:07problems such as discrimination in access to
00:08:11housing, either for purchase or rent,
00:08:14abuses that occur by landlords and tenants, among many other
00:08:18manifestations, it is evidently a global problem, occurring in
00:08:21different countries around the world, but it must also be
00:08:25noted that the countries in which there have been
00:08:29advances in addressing this problem have been countries that have
00:08:32understood that land must be understood as a common
00:08:35good, as a
00:08:39resource that must be managed, that must be
00:08:43given to everyone, as a resource that must be managed rather than
00:08:47simply as property, no, so,
00:08:50although it is happening all over the world, it is not happening equally in all countries,
00:08:54it coincides that it is also happening in countries of the global north, there are problems in
00:08:57Germany, there are problems in England, in the United States, but
00:09:01there are very differentiated aspects compared to Latin
00:09:04American countries and even in Spain, the situation in Spain
00:09:08is serious and it is not comparable, let's say comparisons
00:09:11are, it seems to me, useful
00:09:14to identify problems and patterns, but not to measure which
00:09:18is the most serious, but there are factors in Spain that are not present in other
00:09:21European countries, and it is true that there are also elements
00:09:25in Mexico and in Latin America that are different from
00:09:28these crises, but I agree with what my
00:09:32colleagues commented, well, we will continue talking about each of these
00:09:35topics to try to understand a little bit what those differences are, I understand
00:09:39that comparisons are very difficult, but but I think it will help us to understand a little bit the
00:09:43problems we experience in each of our countries and of course to be living in Spain, we'll be back with
00:09:47more, in a moment here at Mizcopido.
00:11:08Yes, yes, it's clear, and it's very good that you come back, you
00:11:12said it at the beginning of the program, saying, well, assuming that
00:11:15this transition happens because there are a series of
00:11:19questions that you have explained very well, so that, that right away
00:11:22means, well, maybe this
00:11:25is not as immediate as we think. Second, the point of
00:11:28transparency, of maintaining transparency, which
00:11:32well, Bernanke got us dancing, who has been
00:11:35tremendously a positive asset and a
00:11:38great asset for the institution, and then fundamentally
00:11:42the structure of a
00:11:45strong Fed.
00:11:48That complexity it has right now, regionally,
00:11:51is a strength. Forum with Senate candidate James
00:12:32Talarico, a face-to-face meeting
00:12:36with voters, unfiltered, unedited, will the Democratic
00:12:39hopeful win in a Republican state? CNN and
00:12:43Jubil forum with James Talarico on Wednesday on
00:12:45CNN.
00:14:05We continue talking about housing, about the problems of housing
00:14:09that have been unleashed and triggered, and since
00:14:12each of you has spoken, I remember these problems come from a long time ago,
00:14:16that is, as was also said in Mexico, at the beginning of the year
00:14:20we started with the issue of evictions by even criminal
00:14:23organizations that take properties and don't want to leave,
00:14:27so, there are different problems that we experience in
00:14:30cities, particularly, this, that doesn't mean that other places don't have
00:14:33these problems, but it's not just a problem of lack of
00:14:37housing, of lack of solutions, absolutely, I think that
00:14:40indeed, when we talk about the housing crisis,
00:14:43immediately two avenues of debate open up,
00:14:46and it's very difficult to reconcile them in some
00:14:50way, I think it's almost impossible. On the one
00:14:53hand, there's always a part of the population, since we have
00:14:57a great property-owning culture, which has been built up over the years
00:15:01and which has suggested that, let's say, the most
00:15:04desirable thing would be for all of us to own a home,
00:15:08and other forms of access to housing, such as renting, have been seen for
00:15:12a very long time as
00:15:14not so desirable, something that does
00:15:17not satisfy the right to adequate housing, there's a lot of cultural
00:15:21aspect to that, there's a lot of cultural aspect to that.
00:15:25Obviously, there's also a lot of policies that have promoted, especially in the
00:15:2890s, the purchase of
00:15:32owned housing, so we surely
00:15:35have a very
00:15:38important, very serious issue of this type, which has led
00:15:42us to think that only owned housing is the right to housing,
00:15:45so to speak, no, all other, all other formulas
00:15:48have been very marginalized, when there are many countries in which
00:15:52housing cooperatives have been talked about, other formulas have been talked about to
00:15:56access also obviously public rent, which when
00:15:59controlled can satisfy the right to housing, but
00:16:02I was saying, there is always a tendency to look at the housing
00:16:06crisis from the perspective, as you said, of a lack of housing,
00:16:09that more housing must be built and by building more housing
00:16:13we solve the problem, and this is a vision
00:16:16normally of the real estate sector, so to speak,
00:16:20of some kind of economist, but unfortunately sometimes it is
00:16:23majority, especially in some spaces of power, so to
00:16:27speak, those who can speak in certain
00:16:31relevant places where decisions are made,
00:16:34normally carry this type of message, a message that from our
00:16:37point of view, from human rights, from organizations, is
00:16:41equivocal, it is wrong, because the housing
00:16:45market, like any market, does not function simply
00:16:48by flooding,
00:16:51not by more, by more houses and
00:16:54then we flood with more housing and thus reduce the
00:16:58price, the problem is that the housing
00:17:02market, land is limited and above
00:17:05all today housing is traded on the stock
00:17:09market, nobody has an interest in its
00:17:13price being reduced and lowered, and on the other hand
00:17:16we have the organizations, the people on the
00:17:20street, obviously, let's say progressive
00:17:23governments in some way we could perhaps
00:17:26say that they are proposing that it is good to
00:17:30build more housing, more affordable housing, more social
00:17:33housing, public rent, but that
00:17:36we should also start to control the market, something that was
00:17:39done in the last century, that is, there are many countries that faced
00:17:43real estate speculation, that tried to avoid vacant lots
00:17:46that, let's say, imposed higher taxes
00:17:50precisely on underutilized housing, but
00:17:54then came the Thatcher era, the era,
00:17:57let's say, of harsh neoliberalism, in which it was
00:18:00proposed that no, the state had to withdraw, that we should not have seen
00:18:04these controls, that the most relevant thing was
00:18:08that we all had freedom to buy, freedom to produce,
00:18:11freedom of the market. Let's see,
00:18:13María, you took the word from me at this
00:18:17moment, because precisely,
00:18:19speaking of rights, there is the right to the city and there is the
00:18:23right to housing, okay, now we would have
00:18:26to take a look, which is not an
00:18:30expert's, but more than anything, I think, in your field,
00:18:34to see what have been the
00:18:37norms over the last decades
00:18:41regarding the supply of housing, for example, in
00:18:44Mexico, what has happened is that the
00:18:47supply of housing has
00:18:50been to provide the
00:18:53population with social housing but, look, in peripheral
00:18:57locations, and for many years that
00:19:00was the norm,
00:19:03for many years there was social housing after the 1985 earthquake,
00:19:07it started, but even so, the phenomenon of
00:19:10urban expansion and how we
00:19:13have the entire existence of dormitory cities, the phenomena of distance
00:19:17from where one works and has to move to
00:19:22the economic cost that
00:19:25that entailed, that situation
00:19:29and still entails it because we are living
00:19:32it right now, even though those policies are no longer in place,
00:19:35what is very interesting right now in terms of policies, speaking
00:19:39again here of Mexico City, for example, what is
00:19:42starting to emerge from what is the city government
00:19:45which is being promoted from
00:19:50the right to neighborhood and community
00:19:54rootedness, this concept
00:19:57comes from 2025,
00:19:59we are not talking about measures, let's say,
00:20:03of, let's build more housing, let's give away, let's
00:20:07put a percentage of the rent for those who don't have, that is,
00:20:11certain measures that other governments in other countries are starting to
00:20:15quell the housing crisis, but here we are
00:20:18talking about it from another dynamic, the right to
00:20:22neighborhood and communal rootedness, which arises
00:20:25from another phenomenon that we haven't talked about
00:20:29here, which is the famous gentrification,
00:20:31we listen to you, no, I agree with what was
00:20:35mentioned, I believe that
00:20:37it is precisely necessary to understand that what is being
00:20:41housing. Housing is the capacity that people have to be able to inhabit a
00:20:45space with optimal conditions, let's say minimum
00:20:48conditions, and with legal certainty, that is,
00:20:52with certainty that they will not be arbitrarily evicted
00:20:55at any time, no. This can be achieved with ownership, but
00:20:59not exclusively with
00:21:02ownership. In fact, Silvia just mentioned it, there are other
00:21:06types of collective, hybrid modalities that range from
00:21:09housing cooperatives or community land trusts or
00:21:13the same rental, as well as public
00:21:17rental, and other different
00:21:20mechanisms. I agree with the issue of land banks, housing is not a
00:21:23cell phone, it is not a cup
00:21:26that is made in abstract and the environment in which it will be
00:21:30used as a product remains the same, but housing
00:21:34is connected to the city and in that sense, to make housing, you have to make
00:21:37a city and land policies, mechanisms such as land
00:21:41banks and others that have been used in different Latin American countries,
00:21:45I'm not talking about Scandinavian countries
00:21:48with budgets and with conditions that seem unattainable
00:21:52for our country at the moment, no, I'm talking about Latin American countries that have achieved
00:21:55this, and finally I think it is important
00:21:58to also highlight this issue
00:22:01of the supposed danger that property has compared to the right to
00:22:05housing, which is completely false. It seems to me that what
00:22:08Silvia mentions is very striking, how as soon as something about the right to
00:22:12housing is mentioned, many
00:22:15voices come out to make alarmist speeches,
00:22:18distorting and even
00:22:22spreading false information to generate panic every time the
00:22:25right to housing is mentioned. This
00:22:30property is not because people in Mexico have
00:22:34an ideological pro-property
00:22:37stance as such, but because we have been taught that stability is given by
00:22:41property, because precisely, as in Latin
00:22:44America, what is most common throughout a person's life are
00:22:48economic crises, political crises, social
00:22:51crises, property has been taught to us as the only thing that
00:22:55can give us stability in our countries, and that's where people come from, it's not that they want
00:22:59property, let's say, from an ideological sense, they want the
00:23:03certainty that they will be able to have a place to live and that they will not be
00:23:05arbitrarily evicted, in addition to the fact that property,
00:23:09like every principle, like every right, has limits and has had
00:23:13throughout history and currently has land
00:23:16uses, for example, are a limit to property, the permits that are
00:23:20needed for the sale of alcohol and other types of uses for property, I could also
00:23:24give many examples, but in addition, it must be noted that here in
00:23:27Mexico, the measures that are considered communist, that are
00:23:31considered radical in terms of the right to
00:23:33housing are the basic basket in terms of housing in countries
00:23:37like the United States or European countries, that is,
00:23:41we are not even asking for mechanisms that are used
00:23:44in
00:23:47explain that part a little bit, how the basic basket. In cities like
00:23:50New York, I imagine, everyone wants to live in New York, no, it's not enough to live in
00:23:54New York, you have to live in the adjacent neighborhoods,
00:23:57the vast majority who work in New York live outside of New York, no, let's
00:24:01see, I'm not saying there are no housing problems in the United States, I'm saying that the measures that
00:24:05exist there are basic and that we don't have them in
00:24:08Mexico. In the United States there are laws that protect tenants, here
00:24:11we have civil codes that are very brief and that do not have this
00:24:15rights perspective. In the United States,
00:24:19in large cities there is regulation of Airbnb,
00:24:23some with criticism like New York's, which doesn't seem to me to be the best scheme to
00:24:26regulate Airbnb, but they have it. In the United States there are
00:24:30rent subsidies in several states, there are subsidies for the
00:24:33rent of people who cannot pay rent. In the United
00:24:37States there are still public housing
00:24:40buildings for rent, buildings that belong to the state and the state rents them
00:24:44out. In the United States they have the Fair Housing Act, which
00:24:47is, how do you say, a law, so
00:24:50to speak, that what it does is prohibit discrimination in the purchase
00:24:54and rental of housing and establishes mechanisms to report it. I
00:24:57don't think the United States is a benchmark in terms of housing, in fact it has many problems
00:25:01and many things that I would criticize, but what I want to say and point out with
00:25:05this is that many basic things that are asked for in
00:25:08Mexico and that are labeled as communist, as extremist,
00:25:12are things that in the United States and in other countries that sacralize
00:25:16property and capitalism, etc., they have them, that is,
00:25:20it is not really
00:25:22a change in the structure, rather it seems to me that it is very
00:25:26comfortable to make a profit from the real
00:25:29estate market in Mexico because there is no regulation and there is no minimum
00:25:33floor of rights for tenants and even for owners,
00:25:36we see it with the cases of dispossession, I'm going to pause, yes, and we'll be right back with
00:25:40more.
00:26:02of that, the truth is that everything that happens in the world is being
00:26:06stirred up in some way, and Latin America, with all the
00:26:09aspects that are there, as you said, of elections, of
00:26:13the treaty of Mexico with Canada and with the United
00:26:17States, will have a spotlight on it and it comes from a moment when the
00:26:20markets, to follow a bit of our focus today on
00:26:23markets, the markets have been quite good
00:26:27too, and there
00:26:30are expectations that, to the extent that they are difficult to anticipate,
00:26:34certainly, but they are moving
00:26:38in a way they haven't in many years.
00:29:56We continue in Mexico, Pina, talking about the housing problem. We talked about the issue of the RBI, that a
00:30:00law was approved in Mexico this. has
00:30:02disincentivized this type of rent or is it, let's say,
00:30:05an approach to the problem that they make? I would say it's an
00:30:09approach to the problem because it's almost 2
00:30:13years old but one of the instruments has
00:30:16not really been opened. The registry
00:30:19is not operating
00:30:22exactly for the platforms and
00:30:25also for the people who offer their
00:30:28housing through this formula, and
00:30:32this really prevents us from having clarity regarding
00:30:36how many there are, where they are,
00:30:39that they have also protected themselves, right? To prevent
00:30:43this register from being opened, so it's a bit
00:30:46early to be able to say if it will work,
00:30:50but if we analyze this law
00:30:53comparatively with another that clearly has many more years of
00:30:57trying to regulate the phenomenon, I think that...