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00:00:03Luigi is accelerating its march towards thought, development in line with
00:00:06the vision of the President of the Republic Denis Sasso Ngesso, who places
00:00:10local communities at the heart of national
00:00:13emergence.
00:00:17On August 8 and 9, 2026, join the
00:00:20energy, industry and
00:00:22future event.
00:00:25Lwingi Economic Conference 2026. Together, let's empower
00:00:29development. Good evening ladies and gentlemen, dear
00:00:32the state, in the interest of
00:00:34the economic success of
00:00:54viewers, welcome to Moto, as you know, this
00:00:57Moto show... I co-host it with Ismaël Gova, to whom I say good evening,
00:01:01good evening Clavis, so as usual, we have a
00:01:04guest, we'll talk about literature, the guest we're going to
00:01:07receive, he has written three books on forest governance,
00:01:10he is Mr. André Ondele Konga attention, no
00:01:14confusion between André Andélé who is the general director of the Congolese National Television, so
00:01:17of Télécongo and the writer we are receiving today Mr. André Andélé Konga, good evening
00:01:21sir, good evening,
00:01:23the state, welcome to Moto, I have three books here in front of me, I will
00:01:27take the most recent one, it's there,
00:01:30the most recent one, I can read the title, Denis Sasu
00:01:34Ngesso, two points from the dictate of La Baule to the epistemological-forest conception
00:01:37of production sharing agreements, this book, what message did
00:01:41you want to convey through this
00:01:45book? Well, thank you Mr. journalist
00:01:48uh
00:01:50for the opportunity you give
00:01:53me to try
00:01:57uh... to say a few words about my book,
00:02:02and the animals that it has just been published, it has just been published, yes, it is, it is published by
00:02:06editions,
00:02:11and even when a large leave La on August 25th, alright,
00:02:13not well uh, you know, Mr.
00:02:17the state, journalist,
00:02:20the this is a scientific
00:02:21article,
00:02:25this book is a scientific article, we
00:02:28all live in this country.
00:02:30and in this country, we have all followed
00:02:34that there was a moment of
00:02:38popular outcry
00:02:41against the mismanagement of a sector, the
00:02:45forest sector which
00:02:47formerly constituted the primary
00:02:51economy of the country of the Republic of Congo, yes until
00:02:5472,
00:02:57and today this sector is no longer capable.
00:03:04to participate predominantly in the formation of the
00:03:07national GDP,
00:03:10the authorities of the forest
00:03:14economy were several times called upon
00:03:18at the national representation
00:03:21without success
00:03:24and
00:03:26the questions remain,
00:03:30everyone says, we don't see the wood money, where does it go, where does
00:03:34it go, if someone hasn't said it, they've heard
00:03:37it, so when you are an executive
00:03:41in a sector like that, where there's
00:03:45law, a popular outcry because people say
00:03:49everything and
00:03:52nothing, the wood money ultimately goes into the pockets of
00:03:54individuals, individuals, agents of
00:03:58of production sharing agreements. Denis Sasungeso the forest economy, hm, you must still be
00:04:00indignant, you must be indignant, hm hm
00:04:03uh to say but what's happening,
00:04:07because it's an interpellation,
00:04:10it's an interpellation, is
00:04:12what the
00:04:14population says against the
00:04:18sector true or not true, what should be
00:04:21done, answers must be provided, and
00:04:24so in this book, yes? we tried to provide the
00:04:28answers to this popular outcry, yes
00:04:32but what did you say when you say provide the answers? what did you say?
00:04:35What is your answer to the question where does the wood money go?
00:04:39Ah the first to have answered
00:04:43that already, to have tried hm hm to provide the answer to
00:04:47that, it's
00:04:50Mr. So, yes, who
00:04:54said what? Who at the election?
00:04:57presidential election of 2016
00:05:00in his project of society
00:05:03the march towards development.
00:05:07proposes
00:05:08on page
00:05:1220, 2nd
00:05:15paragraph, he says this, I try to
00:05:18quote
00:05:22him, for
00:05:24mining
00:05:26and forestry
00:05:30exploitation, the state
00:05:33will evolve the related
00:05:36codes in order to
00:05:40bring them closer to
00:05:43oil
00:05:47exploitation which leads to
00:05:50production sharing agreements or
00:05:53service agreements (end of
00:05:56quote) yes, and so the President of the Republic
00:05:59thinks that to solve this problem, let's make it such
00:06:03that in the forest we sign production sharing agreements, at
00:06:07that moment
00:06:10we sign contracts with whom? with the forest operators,
00:06:14yes, at that moment everyone will see clearly
00:06:18what the forest
00:06:22brings to the national GDP, yes because, like oil, which
00:06:26also didn't seem to bring anything
00:06:29good, but when the country
00:06:33moved into the framework of oil
00:06:36production sharing agreements, we see a bit
00:06:40more clearly about the oil resource, so he
00:06:43proposes, he is a candidate and he
00:06:47proposes, he says that if I am elected, I
00:06:51will, in the context of mines and forests,
00:06:54uh, use production sharing agreements, he
00:06:57proposes, but you see from 2016 to
00:07:01today, it was March 2016,
00:07:04yes, it will soon be 10 years, so it's already 10 years, yes
00:07:08it's already 10 years, we haven't experienced it.
00:07:12But what's happening? Why, 10 years after the President of the
00:07:36Republic promised this to the people, can't we achieve it?
00:07:40Yes, now, what do you think? The President spoke,
00:07:42yes, but what do you think as a forest governance expert?
00:07:46Why aren't we progressing? It's simple, it's simple. Why aren't we progressing? It's
00:07:49simple. In this book, yes, I come
00:07:52to give the scientific traceability,
00:07:56I give in this book the scientific
00:07:59traceability of production
00:08:03sharing agreements, that is to
00:08:05say, that is to say, in this book
00:08:08I try to explain what is meant by a
00:08:12production sharing agreement in a forest environment, is
00:08:16it the same as an oil and gas agreement or is it
00:08:20another, I give the
00:08:21traceability, I say I give the
00:08:25traceability because when the
00:08:28president speaks of production sharing agreements, what does
00:08:32he want?
00:08:35Listen, a forest operator, an
00:08:37investor, came to Congo, he
00:08:41says: I want to invest. in Mr. Quibala's forest, hmm,
00:08:44okay, he brings everything
00:08:47he has, he brings technicality,
00:08:51machines, everything, even people, and everything
00:08:55in accordance with the rules of
00:08:58with the rules of
00:09:00forest regulation of the country and
00:09:03everything, so why should we share his production
00:09:07with him? Why should we share his
00:09:09production but in relation to the right of for example, he exploits
00:09:13here, ah here, he exploits here, no, Mr.
00:09:16Kibba, so we must first
00:09:20say that if an investor
00:09:23comes here with all the means, the financial
00:09:26means, the mechanical means and everything
00:09:29that follows, he
00:09:31is a forest operator,
00:09:35he exploits the resources that
00:09:37are on Congolese soil, that's what I was talking about.
00:09:41And these Congolese soils
00:09:44belong to what
00:09:46I call in the book a landowner.
00:09:50In the context of our
00:09:54country, the Congolese state has
00:09:56private forests that belong
00:10:00to it, at that moment the Congolese state is
00:10:03considered the private owner of these
00:10:07forests, do you understand me? So,
00:10:11to this operator, we say, "Hey, you came,
00:10:14you did everything, you gave everything, you have all the
00:10:18technicality and everything, but when you want
00:10:22to take something in... and in the wood domain, when you want to take a
00:10:25sapele, these are the names of the woods in the forest, sapeli or
00:10:29okoumé, when you want to take or when you
00:10:33want to take a wengé, take what you want, yes
00:10:37but to take a wengé tree, your
00:10:40machines, your machines that you use to
00:10:44take the wengé, your roads that you make to go
00:10:47take the wengé, but that
00:10:51wastes, that causes prejudice to
00:10:54the French owner because
00:10:56you, during your passage,
00:10:59you kill many young
00:11:03plants that should tomorrow perhaps give
00:11:06us more resources so that
00:11:09other exploiters
00:11:13come, you kill them, you
00:11:16do this and all that
00:11:19okay, that's called in my book
00:11:23so you provoke forest
00:11:25roads,
00:11:27and when you're done exploiting,
00:11:29Mr. forest operator, you're going to leave, right, you leave
00:11:33me with this damage, so let's share the
00:11:37responsibility, our responsibility
00:11:41for this damage that you cause to
00:11:44the ecology, yes, at that moment
00:11:47comes the temptation to
00:11:50want to share something. the responsibility
00:11:54first because he is civilly responsible for the
00:11:58damage caused while
00:12:00the landowner who
00:12:03had issued a call for tenders asking people to
00:12:07come and exploit his forest to satisfy the needs of
00:12:11his current populations, this
00:12:14landowner is uh uh
00:12:17civilly responsible
00:12:20uh towards future generations.
00:12:24who will come if we don't make repairs, well you
00:12:27haven't answered my question yet, I was saying this, where does the wood money go,
00:12:31is it a problem of reform, can't manage,
00:12:34is it embezzlement of money, no, wait,
00:12:38yet on the wood money, I'm going to first explain to you, I told
00:12:42you, I'm talking to you about scientific
00:12:46traceability of production
00:12:49sharing, that's where the idea of sharing
00:12:52responsibility was born, by what
00:12:56means, by asking the forest
00:12:59operator, so uh you pay
00:13:03something for the damage you
00:13:06cause, but this something they pay there has
00:13:10a name, it's called land
00:13:13rent,
00:13:16it's when the forest operator will
00:13:19have to pay land rent
00:13:22to the landowners every year, yes?
00:13:27that the country has reached the
00:13:31level of production
00:13:33sharing, I even have the impression that at the oil level it's
00:13:36called oil rent, so it's the
00:13:40rent, however,
00:13:43until today, for 10 years we haven't been able
00:13:46to reach this level, this
00:13:49stage for 10 years,
00:13:52but laws have just been adopted.
00:13:56Laws have just been adopted, we will talk about it
00:13:58perhaps,
00:14:012020, we will talk about it, but you are
00:14:04more eager in your question about where the
00:14:07wood money goes, but that's the question, that's what the
00:14:11populations are asking, but
00:14:14then I tell you, facing this
00:14:17interpellation, we, the executives of the forest economy, we
00:14:21must be indignant, we must seek to answer.
00:14:25to this question, so we need to reflect, we need
00:14:29a high scientific reflection to
00:14:32provide answers to what the populations think, so
00:14:36when there is land rent, do you know
00:14:39why it's going to be a revolutionary
00:14:42answer, because our forest
00:14:46exploitation is based on
00:14:50forest exploitation in the Congo Basin, but let's talk about
00:14:54Congo. It is based on forest
00:14:57taxation, which means that when in
00:14:591946
00:15:03it dates back to 1946,
00:15:06the French colonist, you weren't born
00:15:09yet, you might have heard about it, in this
00:15:13country there were what we call the big concessionary
00:15:16companies, you learned that in school, oh you learned that in
00:15:20school, the big concessionary companies,
00:15:24so at the fall of the big concessionary
00:15:27companies, if you have time, we'll talk
00:15:30about it, why there was a fall, at the fall of the big concessionary
00:15:34companies, the French colonist...
00:15:39said: for me to gain something from the forests
00:15:43of my colonies, yes, I
00:15:46implement a forest tax, so the
00:15:49economic success of the forest here in the Congo
00:15:52Basin, it's about taxes, you pay
00:15:55taxes, you pay royalties,
00:15:58there you go, those are the transactional fines or the water and
00:16:02forest agents, they found you with
00:16:04some fake papers, some... also we issue
00:16:08fines, all
00:16:11forest exploitation until today as I speak
00:16:14operates on taxes, transactional
00:16:17fines, royalties,
00:16:20however, this held
00:16:24for a few years, a
00:16:26bit,
00:16:28for our country, a few years ago,
00:16:32but when in
00:16:331990, in 100...
00:16:37990
00:16:42the African Francophone
00:16:46states were summoned to La
00:16:49Baule to convert
00:16:51to
00:16:55pluralism,
00:16:57did you hear me,
00:17:03political pluralism
00:17:06otherwise you don't get development
00:17:09aid, that was a
00:17:12dictate, that,
00:17:15it was France, the former French
00:17:18metropolis that gave instructions to these
00:17:22former colonies of black Africa,
00:17:26excuse me, what does this
00:17:29speech from 1990 represent for the
00:17:32forest governance of Congo, but I'm getting there, madam,
00:17:35I'm getting there. When the heads of
00:17:39state of black Africa, Francophone, let's say,
00:17:43Francophone,
00:17:47Baule in '90, when they came back, you may have
00:17:50noticed or you weren't born yet, but you heard
00:17:54that there were national conferences in all countries, of course
00:17:57for the birth of democracy, the famous democracy, the birth of
00:18:01democracy, it didn't come from
00:18:04us, okay, it was imposed.
00:18:08by Mitterrand, that's it, well Mitterrand is the leader,
00:18:11but it's France, the
00:18:13metropolis, but because
00:18:16uh, after the fall of the Berlin Wall,
00:18:20of the Berlin Wall, yes, after the fall
00:18:22of the Berlin Wall, there were no more opponents, and
00:18:26the United States,
00:18:28helped by Europe,
00:18:31wanted to impose their hegemony,
00:18:34do you see? So
00:18:37all countries became uh uh democratic
00:18:40states and liberal
00:18:44economies, okay, democratic
00:18:48state, liberal economy, the peculiarity of our
00:18:51country and you need to know this, the peculiarity of our country is
00:18:55that our country has an atypical
00:18:58management of its forest,
00:19:02I said it has an atypical management of its forest, what does that mean?
00:19:06Our country in the concert of Central
00:19:09Africa, so of the Congo Basin here, is the
00:19:13only country to have experimented with the capitalist
00:19:15management of natural resources and the Marxist
00:19:19management of natural resources,
00:19:23ah well I just
00:19:26I just all that, that's good, I would like us to establish the link as you say Denis
00:19:30Sasungesos two points from the dictate of La Baule to the conception and
00:19:35represents what here? But Denis
00:19:38Sasungeso, I just told you, yes unless
00:19:42you bring me contrary elements that I don't
00:19:46have, he's the only
00:19:49one here, in Central
00:19:52Africa, to have thought of
00:19:55introducing production sharing agreements in a forest
00:19:58environment. Before him, I've never heard anyone
00:20:01else. In the 18th century,
00:20:04Ricardo, a great English
00:20:07economist, introduced land
00:20:10rent in the 18th century,
00:20:13okay, in the 19th
00:20:16century, England passed with Ricardo, still
00:20:20yes
00:20:22uh
00:20:25Ricardo founded English political
00:20:28economy, yes, so it's no longer
00:20:32land rent, hm hm, and when I talk about land
00:20:35rent and when I talk
00:20:38about concessionary companies that worked here before
00:20:411946,
00:20:45you are young
00:20:48in age. but you are
00:20:52in relation to your culture and
00:20:55everything, you know, we have
00:20:58customs, we have
00:21:00customs, when I go home to
00:21:04my village, when a great hunter
00:21:08kills a large game in the forest,
00:21:11when he arrives, he sets aside a
00:21:15portion for the village chief, so you say the village chief, in
00:21:19fact it's not for the... village chief, yes it's for the owner of the forest, oh the
00:21:22landowner, okay, and his
00:21:25clan, okay, it's for the
00:21:28landowner and his clan, you're talking about the village
00:21:31chief because when the PCT
00:21:35arrived and the PCT
00:21:38revolutionized the villages were already
00:21:41led by the committees uh of the village,
00:21:45village committees, up to creating the village chiefs,
00:21:49but okay, was the village
00:21:51chief, landowner, okay,
00:21:54so that's what existed
00:21:58here, but with the advent of
00:22:01Marxism, the land and all the resources
00:22:05of the soil and subsoil, subsoil, yes, were
00:22:09declared exclusive property of
00:22:13okay, exclusive
00:22:17property of the state, so there are no more landowners,
00:22:20do you see? Yes, no more landowners,
00:22:23and it operated like that from 69
00:22:27until 2000, hm hm, as far as the
00:22:31sector is concerned, it operated like that uh from
00:22:3474 because the forest law, the revolutionary
00:22:37law, the law of revolutionaries
00:22:39in the forest sector came in
00:22:4374, and until 2000
00:22:46the forest is the property of
00:22:49the state
00:22:52roam that can leave here, go to Gabon, come back, go to
00:22:55Central Africa, it's the property of
00:22:59the state tree is cut
00:23:03behind your house, it's the property of
00:23:07that's Marxist
00:23:11property, hm, the
00:23:14Marxist land, it's Marxist land,
00:23:17hmm, but
00:23:21with La Baule, with the
00:23:25transition of one-party states
00:23:29to multipartyism, the Marxist land has already
00:23:33fallen,
00:23:34it can no longer
00:23:37give you effects, so the forest taxation that
00:23:40began in 1946 and that
00:23:44the Marxists re-enacted without
00:23:47modification, can no longer boost the
00:23:51GDP, can no longer boost the GDP, the
00:23:55sector is stagnant, it no longer
00:23:59functions, do you see, the sector is
00:24:02stagnant, it no longer functions,
00:24:05so
00:24:08when Denis Sasungeso launches production
00:24:12sharing agreements in 2016, in 2016, 10 years later there
00:24:15are none, I am a forest economy
00:24:18executive, I say but... what's happening?
00:24:22but however so
00:24:24I told you I decided to provide scientific traceability,
00:24:28Mr. Andelé, whose fault is it if it's not applied? Whose
00:24:31fault is it? Yes, uh
00:24:34Mr. journalist, I answer before you, yes, as
00:24:37a writer, yes, that is to say, the
00:24:40person who masturbated his
00:24:44knowledge and who produced a book, yes, I didn't say in my
00:24:48book that a woman belongs to someone, I don't know,
00:24:52but I just know that
00:24:54uh, I just know that the
00:24:58Marxist conception, what I call in my book,
00:25:01the hegemony of Marxist theories, well, in a simple way, all
00:25:04that, what does that mean in a simple way, all that, Marxist, yes, we understand well, intellectuals
00:25:08understand, but the common people, what does that mean in a simple way, but yes,
00:25:12Mr. journalist, yes, you cannot
00:25:15practice forest exploitation
00:25:18in the forest, yes, without
00:25:21theory, yes, you were told that theory
00:25:24illuminates practice, yes you cannot,
00:25:27so each type
00:25:30of exploitation carried out in the forest must
00:25:33be preceded by a
00:25:35theory,
00:25:38when uh we leave La Baule, we say
00:25:42multi-partyism, we organize elections every 5 years, every 7
00:25:46years, every this, have you ever seen what we organize for forests?
00:25:51No, the forests, the forest executives, we
00:25:55wait for Europe to decide, oh
00:25:58no, there are the sustainable development goals, oh no,
00:26:02period. But we don't think
00:26:05because the way forests are
00:26:09treated is no longer what we
00:26:11treated when it was not multi-partyism, there was
00:26:15even when this national conference movement arrived,
00:26:18there were even in some places, I describe it in my book
00:26:22where people for example
00:26:25to create a park,
00:26:28it sometimes
00:26:31happened that
00:26:34the general public, displaced populations to
00:26:38say here is the park, but when democracy arrived,
00:26:42there were uh peaks,
00:26:44people went to
00:26:48claim these lands, so we
00:26:51must return to land ownership,
00:26:54that's it, Mr. Endilé, why in your work do
00:26:58you qualify certain contracts as monstrous contracts?
00:27:01it's in the law, it's a contract or
00:27:05not
00:27:07the initiative of the decision that the
00:27:09minister of water and forests
00:27:12forests,
00:27:15okay, he has the initiative of the
00:27:18decision, he can say "Mr.
00:27:22Kiba, tomorrow you will go and make the
00:27:25production sharing contracts" or
00:27:27not,
00:27:30or and this partnership contract has no... duration is
00:27:33limited, it is unlimited,
00:27:36okay, it is unlimited, and this
00:27:39production sharing contract, everything I say there, it's in the law
00:27:42has the capacity,
00:27:46has the capacity to substitute itself for all other contracts in the
00:27:50forest,
00:27:53are you listening to me, all other contracts in the forest,
00:27:56so if the minister decides that well, uh
00:27:59Intel, well, the his contract, we put that in
00:28:03a partnership contract, we put this, we do this, it's the minister
00:28:07who decides, it's the minister who decides
00:28:09alone,
00:28:11you see the tendency of this relay race, it's to go back to
00:28:15mono,
00:28:18it's to go back to one-sided management, and there
00:28:21it's the minister who decides, the other contracts, the file goes to the
00:28:25council of ministers, but on this partnership
00:28:29contract, it doesn't go to the council of ministers, be careful. It's the minister
00:28:33who decides, he's the one who has the initiative, he's the one who
00:28:35decides, but this contract is unlimited,
00:28:39I don't know if you perceive it, it's
00:28:41unlimited,
00:28:45well then what kind of minister is this who knows that the law
00:28:48asked him to manage unlimited partnership
00:28:51contracts and that he will go to production sharing
00:28:54contracts, nobody, so
00:28:57this contract arrives according to me like a
00:29:01monster. In the relay
00:29:04race, uh in forest
00:29:06exploitation, it's a contract that was created
00:29:10to prevent reaching production
00:29:13sharing contracts, and why is the production
00:29:17sharing contract important for you for forest
00:29:20management, but I said,
00:29:24I said uh you might
00:29:26someday bring me contraddictors,
00:29:30maybe, I said that this... book
00:29:33gives a traceability,
00:29:36that is to say that we take in the
00:29:39world, had we already experienced the forest
00:29:42royalty? The production contract is
00:29:46the forest royalty, in
00:29:49England yes, in the 18th century,
00:29:52Ricardo instituted the land
00:29:55rent, so the forest royalty is called the
00:29:59land rent, since history... is
00:30:03history, since history is
00:30:07history, it's called the land rent, that is to say
00:30:11that uh those who own the forests
00:30:13make work, you
00:30:16have a forest area, it belongs to you, you
00:30:20are a landowner, you bring in the
00:30:24capitalists who come to develop your forest,
00:30:27beyond the taxes and so on that they pay to
00:30:30the state, they pay you...
00:30:33the land rent and that's the production
00:30:36sharing, President Sasou did not
00:30:40talk about the land rent, he talks about production
00:30:44sharing, but which means the land
00:30:47rent when the forest intelligence
00:30:50sits down, looks and but what does he mean,
00:30:54he he encounters in history and in my
00:30:57and in my book I gave indications.