Google Speech-to-Text API Automatic Transcription (Chirp). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:00about being neutral,
00:00:04and the country's arms
00:00:05of industry wants changes to the law so it
00:00:10of in can export of weapon.
00:00:12of what
00:00:16is the price of swiss neutrality? is it helping
00:00:20others by
00:00:20of being of a peacemaker or simply helping
00:00:25a itself? neutrality, the swiss
00:00:29says. mean they're not ready to defend
00:00:32themselves, i can hit the
00:00:34castle and all this a country where
00:00:38civilian gun ownership is one the
00:00:48cost of sitting on the sideline beyond
00:00:51borders on trt
00:00:53world.
00:01:08of of Divisions
00:01:11of within the European Union have been exposed after more than
00:01:1460,000 migrants surged into the Spanish
00:01:17enclave filter from Morocco. President
00:01:23a of the EU Commissioner Von delin has called for stronger border controls and a unified approach
00:01:27to migration. But how does the block move forward amid
00:01:31strained
00:01:31of relations and why did so many people storm the border
00:01:35on the same
00:01:36day?
00:01:41of
00:01:44of
00:01:54rian and jones. europe's migration policy is under
00:01:57scrutinyy after the Moroccan spanish... border was
00:02:00overwhelmed last week and tens of thousands of migrants
00:02:04swam, scrambled and stampeded their way into the
00:02:07Spanish City Felter. Most
00:02:10of the migrants have been returned home, but many are living on the
00:02:13streets with no shelter, food nor
00:02:16of water, dozens lost their lives attempting the journey.
00:02:20Well, Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez has blamed human
00:02:23traffickers for the crisis, whilst other European Union
00:02:27of states have accused him of being, soft on
00:02:31migrants, they came
00:02:35in their thousands, some swam desperately trying to
00:02:39make it to shore, others rushed the border. By the end
00:02:43of the day, more than 60,00 migrants had
00:02:46of made it into the
00:02:46of Spanish enclave of Thealter. I i prefer to
00:02:50die here than to go my back to to go
00:02:53of back step. Fota is one of two Spanish territories in
00:02:57North Africa and she is a landbarder. with Morocco, to
00:03:01get there, people often swim from the Moroccan town
00:03:04of off, which is about 5 km away. for some
00:03:08it was deadly journey, at least
00:03:11of 75 people died in the crossing, mostly from
00:03:14drowning. with
00:03:15a resident population of only 83, the influx
00:03:19overwhelmed thealter, and the army was deployed. prime minister
00:03:23Pedro sanchez traveled the last week to meet with
00:03:26authorities.
00:03:37of of in
00:03:48in
00:03:48of
00:04:00supreme court ruling that migrants arriving by
00:04:03of sea cannot immediately be
00:04:04of returned.
00:04:05of my friend has called me that the border
00:04:13has criticized some EU countries for what he called a
00:04:16selfish response. Italy's prime minister Georgia Moloni
00:04:20temporarily suspended the EU's border free shingen rangement with
00:04:24Spain
00:04:25in a move backed by Finland and Denmark. At
00:04:29an EU emergency. meeting, 22
00:04:31of the block's 27 member states called for coordinated
00:04:34action. most
00:04:36of the 60,00 migrants have now return to Morocco many
00:04:39voluntarily. it's really tough, everyone there
00:04:43got stopped and arrested, they don't want to sell groceries to anyone of
00:04:47those arriving. spain is
00:04:50of now securing thealter's border as the country's top court
00:04:53investigates just how this mass
00:04:55a crossing was able to
00:04:57happen.
00:05:31migrants, I
00:05:32mean it's almost an unimaginable number, it's
00:05:35huge. Spanish authorities say it was down to
00:05:39misinformation which fueled this rush. to the
00:05:42border, do we have any clearer a picture now of
00:05:46what actually happened? unfortunately, I think we
00:05:50don't have clear picture of what exactly happened, I think it's very interesting to see
00:05:54the huge numbers, so you say something unprecedented, we've had this sort of crisis before and this
00:05:57sort of issues happening in the enclave before, but this is the the first time it's
00:06:01happening such magnitude and such numbers, there's a lot of information, lot of different
00:06:05versions going around in Spain about what exactly happened, and there's a lot of
00:06:08information and theories perhaps from the Spanish side, we very
00:06:12interested to hear as well and to find out more from the Moroccan government what exactly
00:06:16happened from the Moroccan side the border because it all seems to indicate
00:06:19that for whatever reason the Moroccans decided to let this group of
00:06:23migrants through, there was some sort of filtration as well, it was mostly
00:06:27Moroccans, not people from the rest of Africa, so I'm curious
00:06:31to see what happens, we've seen this happen before as political gamemanship from Morocco
00:06:35between Spain, so I think we don't have the full picture yet, and we don't know what's
00:06:38going on behind the scenes in political terms, uh other than that it seems to... and
00:06:42issue of misinformation and the ruling that came on for the supreme court in Spain that
00:06:46was misunderstood or misinformed across Morocco in particular that led to
00:06:50the impression that migrats could just come to Spain and they were going to be allowed into the Shengen
00:06:54area which was completely false as we've seen and most them have come back but yeah it
00:06:58seems to be a combination of factors and I'm not sure we have the full picture yet
00:07:11and local communist is telling you, what were they saying as the events
00:07:15unfolded? well, I think there was just
00:07:19a lot of shock frankly, um, people in
00:07:22Thuta, the residents of Thoter feel somewhat
00:07:26betrayed, I think by the by the Spanish government, the
00:07:30central government, um, they they
00:07:34complained that basically, how is it possible that there was no
00:07:38indication in in the preceeding hours of preceeding
00:07:41days? that there were going to be over 60 thousand, even
00:07:4570 thousand people arriving
00:07:49on their on their coastline, and indeed the
00:07:53president of Thoter did mention that in the day or
00:07:57to preceeding what happened, there were
00:08:00increasing numbers of of people arriving, I think between
00:08:04one and 2000, so they does seem to have been
00:08:08some indication that something was a miss
00:08:11um... things were different from usual uh,
00:08:15but some have suggested that Spanish police did not take
00:08:19this, perhaps did not take this seriously or yeah, did not
00:08:23have the have the full information, so I think people have have been shocked,
00:08:27frankly. I did want to ask Soy, did it appear to
00:08:30be very much a spontaneous rush or or was there any
00:08:34evidence of organized criminal smuggling
00:08:37involved from where you were when you were reporting? yeah, I mean, I
00:08:41think that's... very difficult to say um that something was organized,
00:08:45some the people who were spoken to um
00:08:49said that they had been guided by um
00:08:53Moroccan authorities, um, but that is according that's on the
00:08:57ground in thota, that was according to some journalists from the New York
00:09:00Times, um, I think it's very, very hard at the stage to ascertain
00:09:04what role criminal organizations played, although this is
00:09:08something that the Spanish government and the Moroccan government have both put
00:09:11forward. um, but the but the actual evidence for that
00:09:15is is, we have to wait
00:09:18to to confirm those those comments. Pedro sanchez traveled
00:09:21to alges just days before this latest
00:09:25latest surge into thealter, is this
00:09:29timing significant?
00:09:33well, it could be a that relationship between Spain,
00:09:36Morocco and Algeria is delicate one, it's a delicate
00:09:40triangle, diplomatic triangle, but Uh, currently there's
00:09:43more questions than answers about what were the reasons
00:09:47for this unprecedented invasion into
00:09:50Selta. There have been previous in previous years such
00:09:54incidents, but not at this scale, and that is
00:09:58why with the Patriots for Europe group, we asked for an extraordinary plenary
00:10:02session the European Parliament, to go into the details, see what's
00:10:06going on. I know that the interior ministers the
00:10:10European Union countries are meeting in. an online video
00:10:13conference uh to get some of some answers of what
00:10:17happened exactly. honestly it's very difficult to
00:10:20imagine that the Spanish government or the Moroccan government
00:10:25did not know what was going to happen, 50, 60,
00:10:2970,00 people crossing the borders illegally a
00:10:33day or two doesn't happen every day, it's not something that
00:10:36can go on notice, not something that should go on notice,
00:10:40and according to latest information, there are still a couple of thousand
00:10:44people left in Sauta, this is
00:10:47unacceptable, this is a pressure on the city that
00:10:51is unacceptable, they have our full solidarity. they
00:10:55have our full support, but we need to find out what happened, that's why
00:10:59we are pushing for debate in the European parliament as well as soon as
00:11:03possible. unfortunately the European People's party
00:11:06refused to have this extraordinary plenary debate
00:11:10um because uh they sided with the left.
00:11:13Pablos there saying that it's unlikely that the Spanish government didn't know about
00:11:17this incoming surge, Spain has been criticized for
00:11:21reacting too slowly. what's the government's?
00:11:26response and has it been inadequate? yeah, i think there
00:11:30is some fair criticism there and i think there's been certainly the reaction was deem slow
00:11:34and i think it was
00:11:35a failure more of anything of the intelligence services, security services, because there
00:11:39should have been some indication. i think at the very least there was a failure of
00:11:43cooperation and communication between the Moroccans and the Spanish and as i
00:11:47said before, we don't really know why this happened right? so
00:11:51there's something more to the story, i'm sure, but something of course
00:11:53that at least i'm not priv to. and there will be more to the story, we not entirely
00:11:57clear why the morocans in particular first let these
00:12:01migrants go through and get so close to the border because usually is buffer on
00:12:05the Moroccan side the border, so what changed, what made them let them sort of
00:12:09as it were go free uh, secondly why they didn't alert the Spanish
00:12:13authorities and thirdly why weren't the Spanish authorities in the
00:12:16know of this agglomeration of people and this could happen, so there's certainly some criticism there
00:12:20that could be made uh, I think once the situation evolve I
00:12:24think... "the penaro sanchez government tried to react quickly, we saw how the
00:12:28situation came back under control more or less relatively quickly and things seem
00:12:32to be more or less going back to normal, normal, yes, there's still some uh
00:12:36migrants there that are left uh, but it's not something in the numbers that we saw
00:12:40and the majority the migrants went back pretty much immediately as soon as they got
00:12:44to to to celta and spain has said that Morocco has
00:12:47cooperated with returns, how much
00:12:51responsibility should Morocco bear in this incident?" "
00:12:55"I mean to some extent Morocco has, the responsibility of Morocco is not
00:12:59to protect Spanish borders, right? The responsibility to protect Spanish borders is of Spain,
00:13:03but also this cooperation between the two, and there has to be cooperation, and this is has been
00:13:07a historically complicated relationship that to be fair has been
00:13:11getting better the last few years. Um, why this happen, I'm not
00:13:14entirely sure, we've seen Morocco use the issue of
00:13:18migration as a political tool somehow to extract certain
00:13:21positions, and and it's a way of adding a little bit of lever.
00:13:25onto the Spanish government, it could be that this was a little bit of a warning
00:13:29shot the Moroccan government anticipating perhaps a change
00:13:33of government in Spain and saying, listen, we still have this tool at our
00:13:36disposal, so if anything changes in the position of Spain visas
00:13:40Morocco or Algeria, we can always open the flood
00:13:44as it were, which is going to be problematic for Spain, I don't know, the
00:13:48reality is we don't really no, but there's alsos of different versions of what's going on and I'm
00:13:52really trying to figure it out like the rest of us, we...
00:13:55Pablo zoe, how just how politically
00:13:59damaging is this proving to be for Pedro
00:14:01sanchez? yeah, i think it is putting
00:14:05pressure on him definitely. mean amongst the spanish
00:14:08population, obviously those people who were
00:14:12already supportive the partido popular, the
00:14:16center right party or even the far right vox, this is just you
00:14:20know fuel for the fire, um basically this
00:14:23idea that p sanchez's government just don't have
00:14:27control the borders the the country
00:14:31um and it's fair to say that people here on the ground in Malager have felt
00:14:35a certain amount of shock and concern if you
00:14:38consider that Thoter is a one hour fairy
00:14:41ride away from um from the Spanish mainland
00:14:45so I think that has really
00:14:48you know fueled um those people already in opposition to
00:14:51Sanchez um I think also we see here
00:14:55Sanchez looking fairly isolated within the European
00:14:59context and I think that's particularly what he and his government are now
00:15:03complaining about at European level saying that they were offered
00:15:07very very little support um and 22 out of
00:15:1027 European nations basically signed letter that
00:15:14suggested that the problem lay with Sanchez and his
00:15:18government and his migration policies so I think
00:15:22yeah I think Sanchez at this point probably is feeling... a little bit, a little
00:15:26bit
00:15:31you've argued that the EU migration pact, it
00:15:34creates incentives for illegal. migration
00:15:38so what should Europe be doing differently and in
00:15:42particular looking at Hungary as an example
00:15:46of of Europe's or one of Europe's tougher
00:15:49borders? well the government
00:15:52federal has done the same mistake as the European Union has
00:15:55in terms of being very weak on border protection against illegal
00:15:59immigration. just to put this into context this
00:16:02crisis. the last couple of months in Spain have
00:16:06been about the question of legalizing hundreds of
00:16:10thousands in Spain and basically
00:16:13granting them regular status, although they entered
00:16:17illegally. if then there's another piece of news
00:16:21and we've discussed this already, that some people,
00:16:25it was circulating in networks or maybe even in
00:16:27media, that people who enter seuta
00:16:31illegally will be allowed to stay, well that is fueled
00:16:35by the months and months. uh
00:16:38previously where the Spanish government has moved
00:16:41forward on legalizing hundreds of thousands of illegals, so
00:16:45obviously there's a pull factor created by politics,
00:16:49created by the socialist government in Spain and also created with what you
00:16:53mentioned the EU migration pact, because what is the EU migration pact
00:16:57about? It's about distributing the burden of illegal
00:17:01immigration across Europe to all countries in
00:17:04without stopping illegal entry. "that should be the first
00:17:08priority the European Union, that was the first priority of our
00:17:12government in Hungary since the 2015 migration crisis
00:17:16and it was successful one, you can
00:17:20stop illegal immigrants at the borders,
00:17:24um, of course there's a lot of pressure
00:17:28from media, there's a lot of pressure from NGOs and
00:17:31there was a lot of pressure on Hungary from the European Commission, just to remind the
00:17:34viewers, we were find 1 million euros per..." plus a sum
00:17:38of 200 million euros to change our laws and to
00:17:42allow illegal immigrants to enter the territory of Hungary
00:17:46and therefore the Shengen zone and do
00:17:49asylum procedures for illegals who are
00:17:53already in the EU, then usually disappeared,
00:17:56so this is very bad, there
00:17:59is very bad 10 years looking back in terms of European
00:18:03migration policy and water protection, and what has we
00:18:07have? witness in Spain in the last couple of months now,
00:18:11is a turbo boosting of this very bad
00:18:13policy, and basically giving out a free
00:18:17blank check to legal immigrants, you're telling them, well you're here
00:18:21illegally, we'll just legalize you, what should
00:18:25people think who were contemplating on entering the EU
00:18:28illegally, if not that this is the moment to go, on that
00:18:32look, Pablo Andres mentioned there, the suspended Shengen
00:18:36arrangements, backed by Finland and
00:18:39Denmark, that was by Italy, what's your opinion on that
00:18:43on Andres and Andres's thoughts there was it justified?
00:18:47not at all, I mean at the end the day the Shengen area was not in any danger right, the still
00:18:51a and Seuta has very specific arrangement with the rest of
00:18:55continental Europe as it were, and there have to be border controls and there are
00:18:58passport controls growing from Thelta to to continental spain as it were right,
00:19:02so not a single mangrad made it to the Shengen area, I don't see, I don't
00:19:06remember I haven't recorded. haven't seen anybody from this particular wave of migrants
00:19:10appearing at the borders of Hungary or any other European country, the
00:19:14vast majority them went back and turn back and return to Morocco, yes
00:19:17this shouldn't have happened,
00:19:19this was it's a very bad look right, it's a terrible look, and there
00:19:23may be an argument to be made about this has been partially
00:19:26influenced by the recent legalization or regularization of migrants
00:19:30in spain from Pedro sanchez and we'll find out about that
00:19:34more, the regularization of of of my... that just
00:19:37happened in April in Spain was primarily aimed at Latin American,
00:19:41particularly Colombian, Venezuelan, Ecuadorian, some
00:19:45Mexicans, Argentinians, lot more migrants from Latin America, there were of course some people from
00:19:49Northern Africa as well, right, but it's a different different phenomenon, most
00:19:53migrants that
00:19:54come through Europe from Spain do not do it through the enclave of Theuta
00:19:57because they still have to go through the sea all the way to continental spain and it's
00:20:01a lot harder to do so, so
00:20:04it is not a great look, it's terrible, but I think I'll be very careful with the... language as well,
00:20:08how we portray this as well, this was not an invasion, the schengen area was
00:20:12not under threat, it was terrible event, and let's not forget as
00:20:15well, the human cost of this crisis, because at least 70 people los their
00:20:19lives in something that was completely avoidable, right? so I think we have to be
00:20:23careful with how the we portray this, how we paint this? yeah, absolutely, I mean Pablo said it
00:20:27there, Zoe, let's not forget about the more than 50 people that have
00:20:31reportedly um dead as result of of
00:20:34this, has the political debate? here in
00:20:38your view overshadowed the the humanitarian
00:20:42tragedy that we saw? yeah, think i think that's
00:20:45probably fair to say the focus has been on the
00:20:48politics. rather than the lives lost,
00:20:52we know that the people in thoter, although many them have
00:20:56shown some solidarity with the people who are still there, the the
00:21:00migrants, many them are minors, so that procedure for
00:21:03repatriation is a bit more complex, they have shown
00:21:07solidarity, the authorities they have taken the most the
00:21:11necessary humanitarian steps, i think there's a sort
00:21:15of a divided feeling between compassion and concern for
00:21:18those individuals, to arrived on the beach uh with
00:21:22with literally just the clothes on their back uh versus the
00:21:26massive numbers that that it flooded in um as we know the
00:21:30population of thot is around 80,000 so it was almost the
00:21:34same number of migrants who arrived on on the shores so this
00:21:37obviously um caus caused people to sort of retreat into their
00:21:41homes close up shops etc. um so I think there is there
00:21:45is this rather awkward um confrontation that people are having to
00:21:49face here. Spain themselves, how to what extent do
00:21:53we show our concern and our compassion for
00:21:56those in in the position the migrants versus
00:22:00our sense of security and um our
00:22:03sense of sort of secured borders, so yeah I think it's a very
00:22:07it's a very difficult difficult one for for many people here in
00:22:11Spain. Let me put that question or similar one to you if you
00:22:15would mind, can Europe genuinely maintain secure
00:22:19borders? whilst meeting its humanitarian
00:22:22obligations?
00:22:26well uh, showing compassion and helping genuine
00:22:30asylum seekers should not be happening by
00:22:33physical breakdown of border fences like
00:22:37now, there should be centers
00:22:41set up or even embassies, consulates
00:22:44handling asylum requests in the countries of origin or the
00:22:48first safe country. people
00:22:50come from, so their paperwork can be checked, can be
00:22:53verified. Our first concern should be the security
00:22:57and the interest of Europe and European citizens, and what we have seen in
00:23:01the last decade since the 2015 migration crisis, is
00:23:05that mass illegal immigration has
00:23:09not led into integration, it has not
00:23:13benefited economically like it was claimed by many governments
00:23:17at the time, and and the compassion. should be with
00:23:21genuine refugees and not people who break down borders
00:23:25and who are not actually fleeing any
00:23:28violence at home. you cannot claim that there is no
00:23:32government, that there's a failed state in Morocco, that uh
00:23:36that these 70,00 people who crossed the border
00:23:39illegal, their lives were at l risk, because tens of
00:23:43thousands them returned then afterwards willingly by
00:23:47themselves. on the back, what wonder? just said
00:23:50there, Pablo, do you think that this crisis has
00:23:54somewhat strengthened anti-immigration parties
00:23:57across Europe now, and particularly ahead of
00:24:01upcoming elections,
00:24:03what effect do you think it's had?
00:24:04it might do, and it's it's not a good look i wonight, it's it's a terrible look, and the
00:24:08images that are coming over are not
00:24:14in Spain as well, and theota itself, it still remains a fairly
00:24:17divided society, if you look at the government, in Selta, for example, it's half to the
00:24:21left, half to the right, pretty much mirroring the rest of Spain to a great
00:24:25extent. I don't think is necessarily the case that, people across
00:24:29Spain or across Europe have seen migration as as a great
00:24:38Spain is a very particular situation as well, right? I still don't
00:24:41think, and I would never bet whatever you want to say about Pedro Sanchez, and he's made a
00:24:45mistake here, and this is not a good look for his government. Pedro Sanchez is a
00:24:49political... survival expert right, whenever you see him he's down and whoever you think
00:24:53he's under crisis, he's not going to be able to come out of, he always manages to
00:24:57find a way, he's a great politician, he knows how to handle and manage a
00:25:01particular crisis, i wouldn't bet against him uh, but we never
00:25:04know right, and we don't know what's going to happen, i think he has other
00:25:08problems at home, particularly around corruption and all the corruption scandals around his
00:25:12government, this doesn't help, would it be determinant factor across
00:25:16elections in spain, i'm not too sure, pablo, thank you
00:25:23changed attitudes in southern Spain where you
00:25:27are? I think it's quite early to to make those kinds
00:25:30of comments regarding changing attitudes. I mean, I think it's
00:25:34also fair to say, however, that just to get back to Pedro
00:25:38Sanchez fairly ambitious decision to um
00:25:42regularize, as they put it here in Spain, over
00:25:45million migrants, I think
00:25:49the... amongst the Spanish population, there was not a massive
00:25:52pushback against that idea, and I think also to be fair,
00:25:56there was a lot of logic in that decision, all
00:26:00these people who have now... and I'd like emphasize that
00:26:04they have, the million plus have only applied for
00:26:07regularization, they have not yet been given that, all
00:26:11these people were already working in Spain, they were part the
00:26:15economy, the majority of Spanish speakers, the majority
00:26:19are under 45, and two-thirds them
00:26:23have educational qualifications well beyond secondary
00:26:26school, so in some ways this could be seen as a
00:26:30genuine attempt to approach. the migration
00:26:33issue uh from more
00:26:35economic pr pragmatic
00:26:39approach and certainly i think that is how Pedro sanches's
00:26:43government sort of sold this decision to the Spanish people.
00:26:46this situation now is obviously almost like the other side the
00:26:50coin and it's true it creates a sense perhaps
00:26:54of fear and hesitancy but i think it would be
00:26:58a mistake to try and conflate the two the two
00:27:09your thoughts, and if you'd like more context and firsth
00:27:12reporting on Spain's immigration challenges, check out our sister program
00:27:16beyond borders and their episode, no pain, no Spain,
00:27:19risking death to reach Europe. The team have traveled to
00:27:23felter, the city at the center of this migration crisis, find
00:27:27it on their YouTube channel, Beyondborders at TRT World,
00:27:31you can also see more'. discussion and debate on our own youtube channel,
00:27:35search roundtable trt world, and of course you can listen to
00:27:39selected episodes wherever you get your podcast, but for now from
00:27:42me and all the team here, goodbye and thanks for
00:27:45watching,
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00:28:23issues behind the headlines, how seating somehow, that's the whole point of
00:28:27negotiation, they want a stake in the governance their
00:28:30country." bring you in-depth look at the
00:28:34events, conflicts and decisions that impact us all. all
00:28:37of you have failed, all of you have
00:28:40failed. the responsibility for
00:28:43dealing with that falls to the united nations security council from
00:28:47every corner the globe. if fighting
00:28:51continues, what will there be left to fight for hundreds of
00:28:54thousands of not millions of people are left to
00:28:57start? the
00:29:00newsmakers on TRT.
00:29:02world
00:29:27straight talk breaks down turkey is place in the
00:29:29world triggering a pound shift that
00:29:33is transforming
00:29:34a volatile
00:29:35region,
00:29:39straight talk, understanding the challenges facing Turkia
00:29:43and how it's adapting to a changing
00:29:45world.
00:29:50Straight talk on TRT
00:29:52World.
00:30:09Tehran says Iran and Oman have agreed a route through
00:30:13the straight of Homus provided third
00:30:21Hazim Seaker, also head on the program. Israeli
00:30:24forces resume military strikes in southern Lebanon, even though
00:30:28delegates from both sides are in Rome talking
00:30:31peace. Ukrainian president Vuladimir Zelenski
00:30:35urges allies to step up air defense support, calling for
00:30:39more patriot systems and intercepted missiles
00:30:42and former Liverpool legend Mohammed Salah
00:30:46causes a splash in the football market joining the Turkish
00:30:50Side Trabson Sport.