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00:00:01of
00:00:10Hello, you're watching TRT World, I'm Lequest of Burek,
00:00:12in a reminder
00:00:13of of our main stories today. Iran says it's reached an
00:00:16agreement with Oman a route for ships transiting the straight of
00:00:20Homo's, but Tehran has also warned that the
00:00:23a agreement doesn't guarantee safe passage through the straight due to
00:00:27of the US naval
00:00:29of blockade. of Officials in... Washington had hoped an agreement to open the straight would
00:00:32happen this week. President Trump says talks with Iran are still ongoing
00:00:36despite Tehran earlier denying holding direct
00:00:40negotiations with the US.
00:00:44I can say that the latest situation is that almost all
00:00:49in of the topics are under discussion, the map, the transit routes, the entering and exiting of maritime
00:00:53traffic and those
00:00:55of bilateral site agreements with Oman, because it's not just map, these
00:00:59fundamental.
00:01:00of
00:01:14of
00:01:20a
00:01:21of
00:01:30in Madjal Salem, the strikes also hit targets
00:01:34of inside designated pilot zone, all
00:01:36of this of taking place whilst delegates from both countries are in Rome
00:01:39discussing the next phase of a
00:01:42of gradual Israel withdraw from southern
00:01:44in Lebanon under a US broker
00:01:46mechanism.
00:01:49of Ukrainian of president of Voladimir Zelensky has once again asked European allies for more
00:01:52support following massive Russian strike. Zelenski says Moscow wants to
00:01:56further
00:01:57of escalate of the conflict with ballistic missiles at least. 20 people were
00:02:01killed, dozens
00:02:02a injured in strikes on Ukraine since
00:02:05Wednesday. Myanmar's leader is in Thailand on an
00:02:09official visit as Bangkok pushes for re-engagement with its wartorn
00:02:13neighbor and
00:02:14a the regional
00:02:14a block Asian. They've been barred from Asian summon since
00:02:182021, when Minong stage accu
00:02:22against the elected government of Angsan
00:02:24of suchi. It led to a civil war that killed an estimated 100,00
00:02:28people.
00:02:32That is your news, now it's round
00:02:34table.
00:02:44of of Divisions
00:02:48of within the European Union have been exposed after more than
00:02:5160,000 migrants surged into the Spanish
00:02:54enclave filter from Morocco. President
00:02:57of the EU Commissioner Vondelen.
00:03:00a has called for stronger border controls and a unified approach
00:03:04to migration, but how does the block move forward amid
00:03:07strange
00:03:08of relations, and why did so many people storm the border on
00:03:12the same
00:03:12day?
00:03:21of of
00:03:28hello and welcome to round! table, I'm Ryan and Jon Jones. Europe's
00:03:32migration policy is under scrutiny after the Moroccan
00:03:36spanish border was overwhelmed last week and tens of
00:03:39thousands of migrants swam, scrambled and stampeded their
00:03:43way into the Spanish City felter. Most
00:03:46of the migrants have been returned home, but many are living on the
00:03:50streets with no shelter, food nor
00:03:52of water. Dozens lost their lives, attempting the
00:03:55journey. Well, Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez has blamed human.
00:04:00traffickers for the crisis, whilst other European Union
00:04:04states have accused him of being soft on
00:04:08migrants. they came
00:04:11in their thousands, some swam desperately trying to
00:04:15make it to shore, others rushed the border. by the end
00:04:19of the day, more than 60,000 migrants had made it into the
00:04:23of Spanish enclave of thaalter. i prefer
00:04:27to die here than to go my back to go.
00:04:31Fauta is one of two Spanish territories in North Africa
00:04:35and she is a land border with Morocco, to get there, people
00:04:38often swim from the Moroccan town of
00:04:41of Fneidec, which is about 5 km away. For some, it
00:04:45was deadly journey, at
00:04:47of least 75 people died in the crossing, mostly from
00:04:51drowning. With
00:04:52a resident population of only 83,000, the influx
00:04:56overwhelmed thealter, and the army was deployed.
00:05:10of yesterday deserves
00:05:13our strongest reproach and our firmest
00:05:16condemnation.
00:05:20far right political parties and protesters have accused the leader of
00:05:24being lacks over border control, while the crisis has
00:05:28exposed divisions in Europe over migrant policy.
00:05:32sanchez has blamed human traffickers for spreading rumors about recent
00:05:36Spanish Supreme Court ruling that migrants arriving by sea
00:05:40cannot immediately be returned. my friend has called me
00:05:43there that the border is open, yes serve
00:05:47yourself on border, and Sanchez has criticized some EU
00:05:51countries for what he called a selfish response.
00:05:55Italy's prime minister Georgia Malone temporarily suspended the
00:05:58EU's border free Shingin arrangement with Spain a move backed
00:06:02by Finland and Denmark. At an EU emergency
00:06:06meeting, 22 the block's 27 member states called for
00:06:10coordinated action. "most the 60,000 migrants have
00:06:14now returned to Morocco many voluntarily.
00:06:18It's really tough, everyone there got stopped and arrested. They don't want to
00:06:22sell groceries to anyone of those arriving. Spain is
00:06:26now securing Fayalter's border as the country's top court
00:06:29investigates just how this mass crossing was able to
00:06:33happen. Well, let's
00:06:37meet our guests joining us from Malager in southern Spain as journalist Zoe
00:06:41Base in Budapest." We have Andreas Lazlo, an
00:06:44Hungarian politician and member the European Parliament, he's part
00:06:48the group Patriots for Europe. And here in the studio we have
00:06:52Pablo Calderon Martinez, associate professor in politics and
00:06:56international relations at northeastern University,
00:07:00London. Now let's start with the sheer scale,
00:07:04Pablo of this particular surge,
00:07:0660,00 migrants, I
00:07:09mean it's almost an unimaginable number, it's...
00:07:12huge Spanish authorities say it was down to
00:07:15misinformation which fueled this rush to the
00:07:19border. Do we have any clearer a picture now of
00:07:22what actually happened? Unfortunately, I think we
00:07:26don't have clear picture of what exactly happened. I think it's very interesting to see
00:07:30the huge numbers are you say something unprecedented. We've had this sort of crisis before and this
00:07:34sort of issues happening in the ankle before, but this is the the first time it's
00:07:38happening such magnitude and such numbers. There's a lot of information, lot
00:07:41of different versions. going around in Spain about what exactly happened and there's a lot of
00:07:45information and theories perhaps from the Spanish side, I'll be very
00:07:49interested to hear as well and to find out more from the Moroccan government what exactly
00:07:53happened from the Moroccan side the border, because it all seems to indicate
00:07:56that for whatever reason the Moroccans decided to let this group of
00:08:00migrants through, there was some sort of filtration as well, it was mostly
00:08:03Moroccans, not people from the rest of Africa, so I'm
00:08:07curious to see what happens, we've seen this happen before as political gamemanship from
00:08:10Morocco between Spain so... "I think we don't have the full picture yet,
00:08:14and we don't know what's going on behind the scenes in political terms. Uh, other than that, it
00:08:18seems to be an issue of misinformation, and the ruling that came on from the Supreme
00:08:22Court in Spain that was misunderstood or misinformed across Morocco in
00:08:26particular, that led to the impression that Microscoges come to Spain and they were going to be
00:08:30allowed into the Shengen area, which was completely false as we've seen and most them have
00:08:34come back, but yeah, it seems to be a combination of factors and I'm not sure we have the full picture
00:08:37yet, no um, well let's bring in Zoe, because Zoey, you
00:08:41were..." reporting from southern Spain as this
00:08:45all happened, so what were authorities and local communities
00:08:49telling you, what were they saying as the events
00:08:51unfolded? well, I think there was just
00:08:55a lot of shock, frankly, um, people in
00:08:59Thuta, the residents of Thoter feel somewhat
00:09:03betrayed, I think by the by the Spanish government, the
00:09:07central government, um, they they
00:09:10complained that basically how... is it possible that there was no
00:09:14indication um in in the preceeding hours of preceeding
00:09:18days that they were going to be over 6000, even
00:09:227000 people arriving
00:09:26on their on their coastline, and indeed the
00:09:29president of thoter did mention that in the day or
00:09:33two preceeding what happened, there were
00:09:37increasing numbers of of people arriving, i think between
00:09:40one and 2ous. so there does seem to have been
00:09:44some indication that something was a
00:09:47miss, um, that things were different from
00:09:50usual, but some have suggested that
00:09:54Spanish police did not take this, perhaps did not take this
00:09:57seriously or yeah, did not have the have the full
00:10:00information, so I think people have have been shocked, frankly.
00:10:04I did want to ask Sori, did it appear to be very much
00:10:08a spontaneous rush, or was there any evidence of organized?
00:10:12criminal smuggling involved from where you were when you were
00:10:16reporting? yeah, I mean, I think that's that's very difficult
00:10:20to say that something was organized, some the people
00:10:23who were spoken. to um said that they had been
00:10:27guided by um Moroccan
00:10:30authorities, but that is according that's on the ground in
00:10:34though, that was according to some journalists from the New York
00:10:37Times, I think it's very, very hard at the stage to ascertain what
00:10:41role criminal organizations played, although this is
00:10:45something
00:10:45that the Spanish government and the Moroccan government have both put
00:10:48forward, but
00:10:50the but the actual evidence for that is is, we have to
00:10:54wait
00:10:54to to confirm. those those comments ones, Pedro sanchez traveled
00:10:58to algeres just days before this latest
00:11:02latest surge into thelter, is this
00:11:05timing significant?
00:11:09well, it could be a that relationship between Spain,
00:11:13Morocco and Algeria is delicate one, it's a delicate
00:11:16triangle, diplomatic triangle, but currently there's
00:11:20more questions than answers about what were the reasons for this
00:11:24un' precedented invasion into
00:11:27Selta, there have been previous in previous years such
00:11:31incidents, but not at this scale, and that is
00:11:35why with the patriots for Europe group we asked for an extraordinary plenary
00:11:38session the European Parliament, to go into the details, see
00:11:42what's going on. I know that the interior ministers
00:11:46the European Union countries are meeting an online video
00:11:50conference to get some of some answers of what
00:11:53happened exactly. Uh, honestly, it's very difficult to
00:11:57imagine that the Spanish government or the Moroccan
00:12:01government did not know what was going to happen.
00:12:0450, 60, 70,00 people crossing the borders
00:12:08illegally a day or two doesn't happen every day, it's not
00:12:12something that can go on notice, not something that should go on
00:12:16notice, and according to latest information, there are still a
00:12:20couple of thousand people left in Sauta, this
00:12:24is unacceptable. "this is a pressure on the city that
00:12:27is unacceptable, they have our full solidarity,
00:12:31they have our full support, but we need to find out what happened, that's
00:12:35why we are pushing for debate in the European parliament as well as soon
00:12:39as possible. unfortunately, the European people's party
00:12:43refused to have this extraordinary plenary
00:12:46debate, because they sided with the
00:12:49left. Pablos there saying that it's unlikely that the Spanish
00:12:53government didn't know about this. incoming surge, Spain has
00:12:57been criticized for reacting too slowly, what's the
00:13:00government's response and has it been
00:13:04inadequate? yeah, I think there is some fair criticism there,
00:13:07and I think there's been certainly the reaction was deem slow, and I think it
00:13:11was
00:13:11a failure more of anything of the intelligence services, security services, because there
00:13:15should have been some indication, I think at the very least there was a failure of
00:13:19cooperation on communication between the Moroccans and the Spanish, and I
00:13:23said before, we don't... really know why this happened right? so
00:13:27there's something more to the story, I'm sure, but something of course
00:13:30that at least I'm not priv to, and there will be more to the story, we not entirely
00:13:34clear why the morokans in particular first let these
00:13:38migrants go through and get so close to the border, because usually is
00:13:41buffer on the Moroccan side the border, so what changed, what made them
00:13:45let them sort of as it were go free uh, secondly why they didn't
00:13:49alert the Spanish authorities, and thirdly, why weren't the Spanish authorities
00:13:53in the know of this agglomeration? people and this could happen so there's certainly some
00:13:56criticism there that could be made uh, i think once the
00:14:00situation evolved, i think the pedo sanchez government tried to react
00:14:03quickly, we saw how the situation came back under control more or less
00:14:07relatively quickly and things seem to be more or less going back to norman,
00:14:11normal, yes there's still some uh migrants there that are left uh, but it's
00:14:15not something in the numbers that we saw and the majority the migrants went back pretty
00:14:19much immediately as soon as they got to to to celta and spain has said that
00:14:23Morocco has cooperate. with
00:14:26returns, how much responsibility should
00:14:29Morocco bear in this incident? I mean to some extent
00:14:33Morocco has, the responsibility of Morocco is not to protect spanish borders,
00:14:37right? the responsibility to protect spanish borders is of Spain, but also this
00:14:40cooperation between the two,
00:14:41and there has to be cooperation, and this is has been a historically complicated
00:14:45relationship, that to be fair has been getting better the last few
00:14:48years. um, why this happen, I'm not entirely sure, we've
00:14:52seen Morocco use the issue of migration. as a political tool
00:14:56somehow to extract certain positions and and it's a way of
00:15:00adding a little bit of leverage onto the Spanish government, it could be that this was
00:15:04a little bit of a warning shot the Moroccan government
00:15:08anticipating perhaps a change of government in Spain and saying listen, we still
00:15:12have this tool at our disposal, so if anything changes in the position
00:15:16of Spain visas Morocco or Algeria, we can always
00:15:19open the floodgas as it were, which is going to be problematic for
00:15:22Spain, I don't
00:15:24know reality. "we don't really know, but there's all sorts of different versions of what's going on,
00:15:27and I'm really trying to figure
00:15:29it out like the rest of us. Yeah, aren't we all? Pablo,
00:15:32Zoe, how just how politically damaging is this
00:15:36proving to be for?" Pedro Sanchez, yeah, I,
00:15:40I think it is putting pressure on him definitely, I mean amongst the
00:15:44Spanish population, obviously those people who
00:15:48were already supportive the partido
00:15:51popular, the center right party or even the far right
00:15:55fox, this is just
00:15:56you know fuel for the fire, um, basically this
00:16:00idea that Pedro Sanchez's government just don't have
00:16:03control the borders the the country.
00:16:07um and it's fair to say that people here on the ground in Malager have felt
00:16:11a certain amount of shock and concern if you consider
00:16:15that thoughter is a one-hour fairy ride
00:16:19away from um from the Spanish mainland so I think
00:16:23that has really you know fueled um those people
00:16:26already in opposition to Sanchez um I think
00:16:30also we see here Sanchez looking fairly
00:16:33isolated within the European context and I think that's
00:16:37particularly what he and his government are now complaining about at European
00:16:41level, saying that they were offered very, very little
00:16:44support, um, and 22 out of 27 European
00:16:48nations basically signed letter that
00:16:51suggested that the problem lay with Sanchez and his
00:16:54government and his migration policies, so I think
00:16:58yeah, I think Sanchez at this point probably is feeling a little bit, a little
00:17:02bit isolated. Let's talk about the migration debate within Europe.
00:17:06Ondras, "you've argued that the EU migration
00:17:10pact, it creates incentives for
00:17:13illegal migration, so what should
00:17:16Europe be doing differently, and in particular
00:17:20looking at Hungary as an example of of Europe's or
00:17:24one of Europe's tougher borders? well,
00:17:27the government Pedro Sanchez has done the same mistake as the
00:17:31European Union has in terms of being very weak on border protection
00:17:35against illegal immigration, just to put this into context, this
00:17:39crisis, the last couple of months in Spain have
00:17:42been about the question of legalizing hundreds of
00:17:46thousands in Spain and basically
00:17:50granting them regular status, although they entered
00:17:53illegally. if then there's another piece of news
00:17:57and we've discussed this already that some people
00:18:01it was circulating in networks or maybe even in media
00:18:05that people who enter sota illegally will be
00:18:09allowed to stay, well that is fueled by the months
00:18:13and months previously where the Spanish
00:18:17government has moved forward on legalizing hundreds of thousands
00:18:21of illegals, so obviously there's a pull factor created
00:18:24by politics, created by the socialist government in Spain and also
00:18:28created with what you mentioned the EU migration pact, because what is the
00:18:32EU migration pact about, it's about distributing the
00:18:36burden of... immigration across Europe to
00:18:40all countries and without stopping illegal
00:18:43entry, that should be the first priority the European Union,
00:18:47that was the first priority of our government in Hungary since the
00:18:512015 migration crisis and it was
00:18:54successful one, you can stop
00:18:57illegal immigrants at the borders, um, of
00:19:01course there's a lot of pressure from media, there's
00:19:05a lot of pressure from NGOs. "and there was a lot of pressure on Hungary from the
00:19:09European Commission, just to remind the viewers, we were find 1 million
00:19:13euros per day plus a sum of 200 million
00:19:16euros to change our laws and to allow illegal
00:19:19immigrants to enter the territory of Hungary and therefore the
00:19:23Shengen zone and do asylum
00:19:27procedures for illegals who are already in the EU, then
00:19:31usually disappeared, so this is very
00:19:35bad, there is very bad..." 10 years looking back in
00:19:39terms of European migration policy and water protection and what
00:19:43has we have witnessed in Spain in the last couple of months now
00:19:46is a turbo boosting of this very bad
00:19:50policy and basically giving out a
00:19:53free blank check to legal immigrants, you're telling them, well
00:19:57you're here illegally we'll just legalize you. what
00:20:01should people think who were contemplating on entering the
00:20:04EU illegally, if not that this is the moment?
00:20:08to go on that, look, Pablo Andres mentioned there, the suspended
00:20:12schengen arrangements backed by Finland
00:20:15and Denmark, that was by Italy, what's your opinion on
00:20:19that on
00:20:21Andres, Andreas's thoughts that was it justified, not at all, I mean at end
00:20:24the the day the schengen area was not in any danger right, the still a
00:20:28and Selta has very specific arrangement with the rest of
00:20:31continental Europe as it were, and there have to be border controls and there are
00:20:35passport controls going from theuta to... to continental spain as it were right,
00:20:39so
00:20:39not a single mangrad made it to the Shengen area. I don't see,
00:20:42I don't remember, I haven't recalled, I haven't seen anybody from this particular web of migrants
00:20:46appearing at the borders of Hungary or any other European. country, the
00:20:50vast majority them went back and turned back and return to Morocco, yes,
00:20:54this shouldn't have happened, it's a very bad look, right? it's a terrible
00:20:58look, and there may be an argument to be made about
00:21:01this has been partially influenced by the recent legalization or
00:21:05regularization of migrants in spain from Pedro sanchez, and we'll find out
00:21:09about that more. the regularization of
00:21:13of of migrants that just happened in April in Spain was primarily aimed at
00:21:17Latin American, particularly Colombian, Venezuela and
00:21:20Ecuadorians, some Mexican, Argentinians a lot more migrants from Latin America,
00:21:24there were of course some people from Northern Africa as well, right? But it's a different
00:21:28different phenomenon. Most migrants that come through Europe from Spain
00:21:32do not do it through the enclave of Theuta because they still have to go through
00:21:36the sea all the way to continental Spain and it's a lot harder to do so,
00:21:39so it is not a great look, it's terrible, but I I think I'll be very careful with
00:21:43the language as well, how we portrayed this as well, this was not an invasion, the
00:21:47Shengen area was not under threat, it was... terrible event and
00:21:51let's not forget as well the human cost of this crisis, because at least
00:21:5570 people lost their lives in something that was completely avoidable,
00:21:58right? so I think we have to be careful with how
00:22:00the we portray this, how we paint this? yeah, absolutely. I mean, Pablo said it there, Zoe,
00:22:04let's not forget about the more than 50 people that
00:22:07reportedly um dead as result of of
00:22:11this, has the political debate here in
00:22:15your view overshadowed the the humanitarian
00:22:18tragedy that we saw? Yeah, I think I think that's
00:22:22probably fair to say, the focus has been on the
00:22:25politics um, rather than the lives lost,
00:22:29we know that the people in Thouta, although many them have
00:22:33shown some solidarity with the people who are still there, the the
00:22:36migrants, many them are minors, um, so that procedure for
00:22:40repatriation is a bit more complex, um, they have shown
00:22:44solidarity, the authorities there have taken the most the
00:22:47necessary humanitarian steps. um, I think there's a sort
00:22:51of a divided feeling between compassion and concern for
00:22:55those individuals who arrived on the beach
00:22:58with with literally just the clothes on their back versus the
00:23:02massive numbers that that it flooded in um as we know the
00:23:06population of thot is around 8000 so it was almost the
00:23:10same number of migrants who arrived on on the shores so this
00:23:14obviously um caus caused people to sort of retreat into their
00:23:18homes close up shops. etc. so I think there is there is
00:23:22this rather awkward confrontation that people are having to face
00:23:26here in Spain themselves. How to what extent do we
00:23:30show our concern and our compassion for those in in
00:23:34the position the migrants versus our sense of
00:23:37security and our sense of sort of
00:23:41secured borders. So yeah, I think it's a very, it's a very
00:23:45difficult difficult one for for many people here in Spain. Let
00:23:49me put that question. or similar one to you, if you wouldn't mind, can Europe
00:23:52genuinely maintain secure
00:23:55borders whilst meeting its humanitarian
00:23:58obligations?
00:24:02well uh, showing compassion and helping genuine
00:24:06asylum seekers should not be happening by
00:24:10physical breakdown of border fences like
00:24:14now, there should be
00:24:17centers set up or even embassies,
00:24:20consulates handling asylum requests in the countries of
00:24:24origin or the first safe country where people come from, so their
00:24:28paperwork can be checked, can be verified. our
00:24:32first concern should be the security and the interests of Europe and
00:24:36European citizens and what we have seen in the last decade since the
00:24:392015 migration crisis is that mass
00:24:43illegal immigration has not led into
00:24:47integration, it has not been... benefited
00:24:50economically like it was claimed by many governments at the
00:24:54time and and the compassion should be with
00:24:57genuine refugees and not people who break down borders
00:25:01and who are not actually fleeing any
00:25:05violence at home
00:25:06you cannot claim that there
00:25:08is no government that there's a failed state in Morocco
00:25:11that that these 7000 people who crossed the
00:25:15border illegal les were at risk because tens
00:25:19of them returned then afterwards willingly
00:25:23by themselves, on the back of what Andreas just
00:25:27said there, Pablo, do you think that this crisis
00:25:30has somewhat strengthened anti-immigration parties
00:25:34across Europe now, and particularly ahead of
00:25:38upcoming elections,
00:25:39what effect do you think it's had? it might do, and it's it's
00:25:42not a good look, I won't
00:25:44deny it, it's a terrible look, and the images that are coming over are not great,
00:25:48I hope not, right, um, Uh, in Spain as well,
00:25:52and Theuta itself, it still remains a fairly divided society, if you look at
00:25:56the government in in theuta for example, it's half to the left, half to the right, pretty
00:25:59much mirroring the rest of Spain to a great extent. "I don't think it's
00:26:03necessarily the case that
00:26:05you know people across Spain or across Europe have seen migration as as a great
00:26:08failure. I live in South London, you know, I think it's particularly
00:26:12well there. Um, so, and Spain is a very particular
00:26:16situation as well, right?
00:26:17I still don't think, and I would never bet whatever you want to say about Pedro Sanchez,
00:26:21and he's made a mistake here, and this is not a good look for his government. Pedro Sanchez is
00:26:25a political survival expert, right? Whenever you see him he's down and whoever you
00:26:29think he's under a crisis, he's not going to be able to come out of. "he always manages
00:26:33to find a way, he's a great politician, he knows how to handle and manage a
00:26:37particular crisis. I wouldn't bet against him, but we never
00:26:41know right, and we don't know what's going to happen. I think he has other
00:26:45problems at home, particularly around corruption and all the corruption scandals around his
00:26:49government. This doesn't help, will it be determinant factor across
00:26:52elections in Spain? I'm not too sure. Pablo, thank
00:26:56you very much. Zoe, let's ask you, has the crisis
00:26:59changed attitudes in S Spain where you
00:27:03are? I think it's quite early to to make those kinds
00:27:07of comments regarding changing attitudes. I mean, I think it's
00:27:11also fair to say, however, that just to get back to Pedro
00:27:15Sanchez fairly ambitious decision to um
00:27:18regularize, as they put it here in Spain, over
00:27:22million migrants. I think
00:27:26they amongst the Spanish population, there was not a massive
00:27:29pushback against that idea, and I think also to... to be fair, there
00:27:33was a lot of logic in that decision, all these
00:27:37people who have now applied, and I'd like emphasize that they
00:27:40have, the million plus have only applied for
00:27:44regularization, they have not yet been given that, these
00:27:48people all were already working in Spain, they were part the
00:27:52economy, the majority of Spanish speakers, the majority
00:27:55are under 45, and two-thirds them
00:27:59have qualif education qualifications well beyond. secondary
00:28:03school, so in some ways this could be seen as a
00:28:06genuine attempt to approach the migration
00:28:09issue from more
00:28:11economic pr pragmatic
00:28:15approach, and certainly I think that is how Pedro sanches
00:28:19government sort of sold this decision to the Spanish people,
00:28:23this situation now is obviously almost like the other side the
00:28:27coin, and it's true, it creates a sense perhaps
00:28:31of fear and his... but I think it would be um
00:28:34a mistake to try and conflate the two the two
00:28:38events. We're going to have to like leave it there, but Zoe, thank you very
00:28:42much, Andreas, Pablo, really appreciate your time and your
00:28:46thoughts and if you'd
00:28:47like more context and first hand reporting on Spain's immigration
00:28:50challenges, check out our sister program beyond borders and their
00:28:54episode, no pain, no Spain, risking death to reach
00:28:58Europe. The team have traveled to felter, the city at the
00:29:01center of this. migration crisis, find it on their YouTube
00:29:05channel Beyondborders at TRT wells. You can also see more
00:29:09discussion and debate on our own YouTube channel. Search Roundtable
00:29:12TRT World. And of course you can listen to selected episodes
00:29:16wherever you get your podcast, but for now from me and all the team here.
00:29:20Goodbye and thanks for
00:29:21watching.
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