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00:00:09Hello, of you're watching TRT World. I'm Emily Angwin. Here's a reminder of
00:00:13our top stories: at least 12 people have been killed and more than
00:00:17300 injured an
00:00:19of attack on the King Colored International Airport in Riad. Saudi
00:00:22Arabia has blamed the Anseralla Huthi group in neighboring
00:00:26of Yemen. They have been launching attacks on Rehad in recent weeks. but have yet to claim
00:00:31of responsibility for this strike. Pakistan's prime minister Shahbas Sharif who
00:00:35joined Turkey in signing the Mecca defense pact in August is calling it
00:00:39of a heinous attack. Donald Trump is weighing up a US
00:00:43response. I think it's
00:00:46terrible. Well you're going to find out,
00:00:49see,
00:00:50but I think it's
00:00:51terrible.
00:00:55in Well, they're able to defend. Look, the Saudis are good fighters,
00:00:59but I think... "the attack was terrible thing. A state of
00:01:03emergency has been imposed in the Pakistan
00:01:06of province of Kaiba Pactunqua. The government has also
00:01:09of replaced of the a provincial head with a state-appointed governor. The
00:01:13province is in the stronghold
00:01:17of of of the PTI party of jailed former Prime Minister Imran Khan. The
00:01:19in move comes after days of protest by Khan supporters who had
00:01:23wanted to march on the capital. The Polish
00:01:27government has held emergency meeting and mid reports the..." Prime minister and his
00:01:30deputy with the target of assassination plot. Senior
00:01:34ministers, police and security officials are in discussions in
00:01:38Warsaw. Police say they received information on Saturday about a
00:01:42possible attack
00:01:43of on Donald Tusk and his deputy, who was also the
00:01:46defense minister. Donald Trump says it's time for
00:01:50a Ukraine to get new president. It follows criticism from his
00:01:54Ukrainian counterpart a US diesel deal with
00:01:57Russia. the move weak and warned it will
00:02:01only
00:02:02in help Russia's war. The deal is expected to lead to the
00:02:05immediate release of more than 300,000 tons of Russian
00:02:09diesel with more to come in the months
00:02:11ahead. In India, the cockroach protest
00:02:15movement leader
00:02:16of Abijit Dipki has been released from detention with two other
00:02:20senior leaders on
00:02:21in Sunday. They were arrested
00:02:23of the previous day along with thousands of others who talked to the streets calling for the
00:02:27resignation
00:02:28of the country's election team. Chief.
00:02:32All
00:02:32of right, that's all the news for
00:02:33now, and I'll be back at the
00:02:35of top of
00:02:35of the hour with more news. Do stay with us, bigger than
00:02:39five
00:02:44in of
00:02:49of
00:02:51of
00:02:54is
00:02:55of
00:02:59next.
00:03:00of
00:03:01of
00:03:12of We should not be normalizing
00:03:16genocide and normalizing the
00:03:19of impunity for terrible acts of war crimes. Former
00:03:22Irish president Mary Robinson on the need to hold Israel to
00:03:26account. We should stop all arms transfer.
00:03:30that ate the occupation and target those ministers who
00:03:34are abusing
00:03:35their office by racist language, it's quite shocking, and why
00:03:39there should be more women in power? one
00:03:42of the problems we have is so much male
00:03:45leadership, not all of it bad, but too much of it
00:03:48bad.
00:03:50of hello, welcome to the program. today we focus on the
00:03:54growing crisis of confidence in the international system, from
00:03:57climate injustice to the genocide. in Gaza. Few
00:04:01people have spoken as consistently and forcefully about these issues
00:04:05as Mary Robinson. I first met her 30 years ago when she was
00:04:09Ireland's first woman president and widely tipped to become the
00:04:13first female secretary general
00:04:14of the United Nations. In the subsequent decades she's held top
00:04:18positions including UN High Commissioner for Human Rights. She's been
00:04:22particularly outspoken about the crimes being committed against
00:04:25of Palestinians. In 2025 she went to the Rafa Crossing on Egypt's
00:04:29border. at Gaza, representing the elders, the group of former
00:04:33of leaders founded by
00:04:34of Nelson
00:04:34of Mandela. She saw firsthand how Israel was delaying aid
00:04:38trucks meant to take
00:04:39of humanitarian supplies into
00:04:41of
00:04:41of Gaza. This July she visited the occupied West Bank. On her
00:04:45return, she warned, quote, the government of Israeli prime minister
00:04:49of Benjamin Netanyahu aims to make Palestine disappear
00:04:52physically, economically, culturally and politically. Joining us
00:04:56now, is Mary
00:04:58in Robinson. Mary Robinson, it's good to see
00:05:01you again, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you, it's nice to see
00:05:05you. You've been at the United Nations, meeting with world
00:05:09leaders, warning about what is happening around the world. but more
00:05:12particularly what is happening in the West Bank in Gaza to the
00:05:16Palestinian people and their land. What concerns you the
00:05:20most from what you saw recently on your trip?
00:05:24What concerns me and it concerned Helen Clark with me was
00:05:28what we saw on our visit in July. I had been
00:05:32there with Banki Moon in July
00:05:3520-23 just few months before the terrible
00:05:38attacks the 7th of October and we said
00:05:42situation then was unacceptable and
00:05:45unsustainable and we really warned that what was happening in the west bank was
00:05:49terrible, but what also happening in Gaza was utterly
00:05:52unacceptable, it is so much worse now, we didn't get into
00:05:56Gaza obviously, that wasn't possible, but we heard from lot of
00:06:00people how the people of Gaza are literally squeezed
00:06:04a much smaller area, and if they move out of it, they're shot,
00:06:07and any case they're not safe because there's no cease fire in practice, they're
00:06:11killed every day. and
00:06:15there's a humanitarian crisis and the
00:06:19amount of food getting in keeps them alive, but that's about it, and
00:06:22what about children going back to school, they're trying to have school, but
00:06:26it's really very difficult because the continuing violence, etc.,
00:06:30and that's Gaza, in the west bank, I couldn't
00:06:34believe how much worse it was from when we had been there,
00:06:38Bankuon and myself in 2023,
00:06:40because the... ministers
00:06:44of government speaking
00:06:48openly about totally taking over the west bank
00:06:51eliminating two state solution
00:06:54openly and that was sort of
00:06:58followed by you much greater
00:07:02encroachment we visited
00:07:05village having left Ramala
00:07:08and we drove through what was the Palestinian West Bank.
00:07:12full of Israeli flags at cross roads etc.
00:07:16and when we got to the village we could see it was surrounded by
00:07:20outposts and a military presence
00:07:24and the soldiers would come into the village, they were terrified, women
00:07:28told me they couldn't leave the village on their own in cars
00:07:32anymore, they went out together a bus if they had to go out, and
00:07:35like and you
00:07:37men couldn't farm their olive
00:07:38trees and we met the farm minister.
00:07:43of in Romala the Palestinian authority, we've met her before at the
00:07:47security meeting in Munich, and she told
00:07:50us how impossible
00:07:52it is when you don't have salaries, so the
00:07:56withholding the tax that belongs to the Palestinian
00:07:59authority, and we said can there not be more protection in
00:08:03the west bank the people, and she said, if
00:08:05young policeman the Palestinian
00:08:09authority goes near where settlers are... eating
00:08:12violence and tries to stop them, he'l be
00:08:16shot, and and with total impunity, and yet, and yet
00:08:20we see this total impunity, mayor robinson,
00:08:23continue, you said it was unconstionable the lack
00:08:27of political will to hold Israel accountable for its
00:08:30actions, why are we seeing this continued
00:08:33impunity? well, we're
00:08:36seeing various leaders talk about how shameful
00:08:40it is, how unacceptable
00:08:42it is, macron and Andy Burnham
00:08:45etc. and they have now said
00:08:48that they will not trade with illegal settlements. That's a
00:08:52step, first of all, they gave recognition quite a number of states,
00:08:56European states and Canada, but uh, more
00:09:00significant, they
00:09:00they taken that step. We need to go much further, we need to
00:09:04really not just, you know, suspend the preferential trade
00:09:08with Israel, and there's article two of it talks about the need.
00:09:12to observe human rights, human rights are being totally violated,
00:09:16so that should be suspended, we should stop all arms
00:09:19transferers that aid the occupation, and you
00:09:23target those ministers who are abusing their office by racist
00:09:27language, it's actually blatantly racist language that they're
00:09:30using, and
00:09:32you know, it's quite shocking, and yet there are no serious
00:09:36consequences, there is no push to impose any
00:09:39kind of sanctions on the government as
00:09:42a whole, "do you feel that EU governments are in breach
00:09:45their own obligations? we more or less said to them when we went
00:09:49to Brussels,
00:09:50we we deliberately went from the West Bank and we ended
00:09:54up in Tel Aviv a meeting and then flew from Tel Aviv to Brussels
00:09:58deliberately to raise the responsibility the
00:10:01EU, and we told them, this is on your watch, and this is, it's
00:10:05unacceptable that you cannot agree as a whole, the
00:10:08EU to stop trade with the settlements to..."
00:10:13the preferential trade pillar to stop arms
00:10:15etc. and we do know that Israel
00:10:19is lobby very heavily and was lobbing very heavily at the
00:10:22time, but there's no d. that more European
00:10:26countries are aware of just how horrific it is and that
00:10:30it's on their watch and they're more open about it. it was
00:10:34particularly important that France and Canada and the UK
00:10:38stopped trading with the settlements, but they need to go further. this is just not
00:10:41acceptable. and young people around the world are
00:10:45watching and they're saying, are we going to normalize
00:10:48genocide? are we going to normalize and you allow
00:10:52impunity for what's happening, the elimination? been warning that
00:10:55Palestine itself could disappear politically,
00:10:59economically and physically.
00:11:00I mean, these are really strong warnings. What needs to happen? I
00:11:04think, after the election, let's
00:11:08hope that new government would be prepared to start start
00:11:12taking different steps and be open
00:11:15to discussion. I mean, the board of
00:11:18peace is not functioning, it's
00:11:21simply not doing anything that is significant.
00:11:25and they're making a mistake about decommissioning, I know that
00:11:29from Northern Ireland, um, you know, the whole process
00:11:33of decommissioning arms in northern Ireland was a process that was
00:11:37gradual step by step, and when the IRA
00:11:41decommissioned and you they got a step a
00:11:44direction, and then there was more decommissioning, and it took, I think some somewhere
00:11:48between 10 and 12 years, you don't say, Hamas
00:11:52has to give up all its arms before Israel. will withdraw from that
00:11:56part of, that's not the way it's done, that's not, that's not acceptable or
00:12:00feasible, and and Israel knows that, and you've been in the room for
00:12:04decades talking to prime ministers, president, secretaries general the
00:12:08United Nations,
00:12:09and other top leaders, when you speak with them
00:12:12today privately, what do you think they
00:12:16understand about this issue that they aren't willing to say
00:12:19publicly? well, what we
00:12:23try to do is to... urge them to
00:12:27take the kind of steps that can be taken, and I
00:12:30believe there is kind of movement towards the
00:12:34EU being able at least to suspend suspend trade with the
00:12:38settlements, that may not sound too much, but it's very significant for
00:12:41Israel, you know, it's a it's a marker at the international
00:12:45level and that the world will not trade or the EU will not
00:12:49trade with settlements, of course it would be much better to suspend the
00:12:53preferential and trade agreement because the human rights provisions in
00:12:57it, what we're seeing actually is the EU not living up to its
00:13:00values, that's basically what it is, but
00:13:03what is going to force a change of course, is it EU governments
00:13:07taking certain measures at the EU level, or is it the United
00:13:10States and its leverage on
00:13:12Israel? yes, the United
00:13:16States is very important when it comes to Israel, no doubt about it, the
00:13:20trouble is President Trump is very distracted and he's
00:13:23in he's in the whole 'um because the
00:13:26Iran war, he is presumably worried
00:13:30about the midterm elections and he is
00:13:33worried about artificial intelligence and China and competition and
00:13:37all these things and making money obviously
00:13:39for him and his family, and that's a big preoccupation, so he
00:13:43seems not to be focused
00:13:45on the the situation, what I fear because I
00:13:49I had a mandate in 2016 from the UN for
00:13:53elninho and climate the'. after the Paris agreement, it was a bad
00:13:56elninho year, we have a super
00:14:00elninho coming down the track, i really
00:14:03fear for the humanitarian disaster in Gaza,
00:14:07it's going to be winter, there going to be storms, there going to be, it's
00:14:11going to be pretty unlivable, and actually
00:14:14Israel is short of water now because they've destroyed the water, the
00:14:18treatment plants in Gaza, so they're having their own problem, and that could get
00:14:22lot worse,
00:14:23in other words, "at a time when we're seeing
00:14:27too little political leadership, we're also seeing nature and
00:14:30climate about to tell us,
00:14:33you know, we are now no
00:14:37longer nurturing and absorbing the carbon, we are
00:14:40actually um, you know, beginning to show that
00:14:44nature, when you really go so far
00:14:48with it, will hit back, and part the hitting back is the super
00:14:52alino, it would not happen without the fossil'.
00:14:55led world that we have and they're so closely
00:14:58interlinked all these crises, climate
00:15:01injustice, the situation in Gaza and across other parts the world, you
00:15:05have been critical the US
00:15:08Israel war on Iran, which I believe you and the elders have called a war of
00:15:11aggression, an illegal war, you have said that it's contributed to
00:15:15hiking the price of oil and gas in the world's
00:15:19poorest countries which are already struggling with climate change,
00:15:22again it brings up this whole business of... of injustice
00:15:25selective application of international law
00:15:29and and countries responsibilities, doesn't it? yeah, the
00:15:33elders feel very strongly on this,
00:15:35it is shocking that... five members blatently
00:15:39violate the UN charter, Russia in its
00:15:43aggression in the Ukraine and the United
00:15:47States and Israel, that illegal attack on
00:15:50Iran, and then the consequences, as you say, and those
00:15:54consequences do not seem to be diminishing, and we have now
00:15:57fossil fuel led attack on standard of living all around the
00:16:01world, attack on fertilizers, attack on being able to
00:16:05produce food, people are really... worried and and then we
00:16:09have the super elninho, so it's a, this is going to be
00:16:13very difficult few months. so what do
00:16:15you say to people who are simply losing hope with international law, with its
00:16:18application, with the United Nations system as a whole,
00:16:22when powerful countries like the United States and others are involved
00:16:26in ignoring international law and the United Nations
00:16:30resolutions? well, this is precisely why the
00:16:33elders are actually about to mount a very significant campaign.
00:16:38in support of rule of law and protection of human
00:16:42rights, protection the environment etc. and actually we are
00:16:46seeing mid-level countries begin to group
00:16:50together much more,
00:16:51we we've seen it on AI, lot of mid-level countries,
00:16:55because the two big powers, china and the United States were not acting on
00:16:59frontier, threatening existential threatening AI,
00:17:03so the fact that there is that there are double standards which there are.
00:17:07and that there are problems with big powers doesn't diminish the birth
00:17:11right super importance of rule of law, protection
00:17:15of human rights, i've seen that all over the world, might is
00:17:19right, which is what the big powers are are
00:17:22trying
00:17:23to institutionalized now
00:17:26is is disastrous, we see it, but when powerful nations don't comply,
00:17:29doesn't it create huge bent in the international
00:17:33system, there's no doubt and there is
00:17:37very... big change, that is being discussed a very open
00:17:40way during the UN general assembly, but what the elders are
00:17:44adoment about is, don't make the
00:17:47mistake of saying rule of law no longer matters, rule of
00:17:51law matters more than ever, because the problems
00:17:55we have to deal with together, no country can deal with the
00:17:59climate and nature crisis its own, we need to deal with the inequality
00:18:02crisis that's undermining democracies and huge
00:18:06billions of wealth. are buying power in the United
00:18:10States but also in Europe and other parts the world,
00:18:13you know, buying power, and so, there's no doubt
00:18:17this is
00:18:17not a good time because we have such bad leadership. I mean, I often say, because I'm very
00:18:21much involved a project danderline of of getting women
00:18:25leaders to address a campaign at all levels of
00:18:29leadership, top down and bottom up on climate
00:18:33justice and the climate of nature crisis, and I do say more
00:18:36openly, "one the problems we have is so much
00:18:40male leadership, not all of it bad, but too much of it
00:18:44bad. it is, you, might
00:18:46is right, autocratic, short-term, populist, all the
00:18:50things, and I say, if we had parody of leadership in our
00:18:53world, that means that half the countries the world would be
00:18:57led by women, heads of state and prime ministers, half the countries,
00:19:01would we not have much safer world, we know we would. I say that a time when the
00:19:05backlash against women's..." rights and the backlash of
00:19:09harassment and threats and even
00:19:12using language that we've used for years on
00:19:15equality in UN instruments is all being contested now,
00:19:19so it's a time to dig deep and know we have
00:19:23to fight for our rights, but the rule of law and the
00:19:27importance the framework of international human rights that we have
00:19:30are so important, they are the birth right of young people and I'm determined
00:19:34to get young people on board in defending those right? and interesting
00:19:38that you say that the rule of law will be better preserved if
00:19:42women are at the table? yeah, every
00:19:45meeting of women leaders that I attend, we get down to the
00:19:49practicalities of how to make life better for people, how to
00:19:53combine to solve problems, how to listen each other
00:19:56and you collaborate together to make things better, I mean it's
00:20:00it's it's remarkable and there is lot of trust among women
00:20:04leaders, but the...
00:20:07degree of bad leadership and examples of bad leadership that we're
00:20:11seeing, look at Latin America,
00:20:13you know, more and more autocratic leaders and real worries, look at
00:20:17Europe, and what's happening in Germany, and what
00:20:20may be happening in France, and this is all
00:20:24worrying, but then the world goes through
00:20:28cycles, we're going through an extremely difficult
00:20:31time, actually the most difficult time I know in my long life. I was with
00:20:35them students in Colombia. university as part of
00:20:39speaking here in New York, about 300 students and
00:20:43I said to them, you know, this is the most difficult time I know
00:20:47in my long life, and you're starting, 'you're a young
00:20:51career, and I feel a real empathy, and that's why you
00:20:55have to be aware the need to fight for rule of
00:20:58law and protection of human rights as part of changing the
00:21:02world.
00:21:03we we actually need to change the world and economically to
00:21:07stop this gross inequality, and one the things we could do is
00:21:10value living nature. you know, if we put
00:21:14value on wood on on trees
00:21:17growing, we don't, when we cut the trees'. down their timber
00:21:21and the part the gross national
00:21:23product, but living trees which
00:21:27you provide so much biodiversity,
00:21:31absorb carbon etc. we don't value them, so there's a lot to
00:21:35think about in our world, we've got things wrong, we we've got so much
00:21:39extraction, so much fossil fuel
00:21:43dominating, and the good news is
00:21:46that the pathway to clean energy is really.
00:21:50It's so much cheaper, it's happening. I hope in
00:21:53Turkey and in Cup 31, which I'll be at, we will
00:21:57have recognition the electrification which
00:22:01Turkey has really highlighted, but also the need
00:22:05to have the language of facing out of fossil fuel, we have
00:22:09to get real about what is harming us and
00:22:13causing this and causing so much
00:22:16disruption and literally death and
00:22:20destruction all around the world. you spoke about the importance of women
00:22:24leaders in the world today. do you believe that having more women
00:22:28leaders in government would lead to a less militarized
00:22:30world? do believe that, of course we need
00:22:34security and and it is the responsibility of governments to
00:22:38protect and secure their people, but there's a different way of doing it.
00:22:42if you engage in much more dialogue and cooperation,
00:22:46you don't need the military might, you don't need to
00:22:50the force that Russia has used in Ukraine, that the United States and Israel have
00:22:54used against Iran, that's that's unacceptable,
00:22:58it's contrary to the charter, it's uh,
00:23:01it's it's absolutely going in the wrong direction and should be condemned by
00:23:04everyone. When we first sat down together, it was 30 years
00:23:07ago, it was in 1996, and you were then President of
00:23:11Ireland, the first woman to hold that position. You were close to finishing your
00:23:15term as president, and you were being very widely tipped as potentially the
00:23:19first... woman to become secretary general the united nations, that didn't
00:23:23happen, and neither has it, neither has it in the
00:23:27last 30 years, did become
00:23:31un high commissioner for human rights and that actually suited me psychologically much
00:23:34more, the secretary general has to make
00:23:38compromises, that's part the job, you has to move with
00:23:42governments to the extent that they will move, whereas the
00:23:46high commissioner it's truth to power, it's calling out, but
00:23:50also saying that human rights are the birth right of all
00:23:54countries, let's work together and to embed them in your
00:23:57culture in your country, and loved the job for five years as high
00:24:01commissioner, even though it was very difficult, it suited me much better, and you were the first woman
00:24:05to hold that position, of course you've got this extensive career as well behind
00:24:09you as barrister,
00:24:10as a law professor at the age of 25. when you look today at
00:24:14the political and legal international landscape, when you
00:24:18look at the race for the next secretary, would it make the slightest
00:24:21difference who leads the UN and whether
00:24:24or not it is woman? i think
00:24:26it would make very important psychological difference if it is
00:24:30woman, because it would be easier for that woman to
00:24:33harness the networks upon networks of women just
00:24:37informally as kind of quiet infrastructure for
00:24:41sanity and problem solving and moving in the right
00:24:44direction all over the world and at all levels, indigenous women,
00:24:48grass women, entrepreneurs, business
00:24:51women, and this is not against men, it's just saying we
00:24:55need the balance, we need the balance in decision making,
00:24:59and we we will have much better world, this has been proved that if you
00:25:03have a good balance in cabinets and at the highest level in
00:25:06government, much better decisions are taken, I mean the
00:25:10Scandinavian countries are a good example of that, but it's very
00:25:13true, and woman secretary general would be a
00:25:17real signal to the world, we need a very... competent good
00:25:21woman and there are competent good women women around just as there
00:25:25are men who are to be considered but hope it will be
00:25:29woman. you believe the time has come? i think the
00:25:32time has absolutely come, yes and i think it would
00:25:36be as i say a signal to young people to women that
00:25:40somehow it's different under you
00:25:43and the UN does need to renew
00:25:47itself a way that brings it. closer to solving
00:25:51people's problems on the ground, it has become a bit
00:25:55elitist and
00:25:56you know distant and driving in
00:25:59big cars in poor country.
00:26:02etc. and not actually building the institutional
00:26:06strength of a country in health, in education, etc.
00:26:09focusing on countries being built up themselves and centering
00:26:13around that. it can be difficult, it can be messy, but that's the way to go. i
00:26:17think you need to localize and really build up the strengths of
00:26:20countries, and i think communities will be very much part of that. finally,
00:26:24as an outsider, but also as insider, someone who knows the UN
00:26:28system extremely well, if there was one thing you could change about
00:26:32it, what would
00:26:33it be? i would like to
00:26:36see a more real
00:26:39integrity in the members the UN
00:26:43about what is not acceptable, we should not be
00:26:46normalizing genocide and normalizing the
00:26:50impunity for terrible acts of war crimes, not just in
00:26:54Israel but you around the world, in
00:26:56Ukraine, we should not have these forgotten
00:27:00wars like in Sudan and that... "you, I would like to see an
00:27:04integrity of purpose led by the UN, but
00:27:07also engaging the members the UN, in defending the
00:27:11rule of law and human rights, which is this wonderful birthright. Mary
00:27:15Robinson, former president of Ireland, former UN high commissioner for human rights and
00:27:19former chair the elders. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you
00:27:23very much, a pleasure. As Mary
00:27:26Robinson warns, the collective inaction of today's political
00:27:30leaders risks enabling..." disappearance of an entire
00:27:34people. The consequences go far beyond
00:27:37Palestine. Powerful government's failure or unwillingness
00:27:41to uphold international law and justice there sets a deeply
00:27:45troubling precedent. Moments like this require not
00:27:48just strong words, but leaders with the wisdom and courage to
00:27:52rise to them. That's all from Mirida Fakhri and the entire team. Thanks
00:27:56for
00:27:56watching.
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00:30:10Warnings of a dangerous escalation after a missile strike on Saudi
00:30:13Arabia's main airport kills 12. The attack is being
00:30:17blamed on Yemen's hoothies, now Donald Trump is considering a US
00:30:21response. Hello and welcome to TRT World
00:30:25Live from Istanbul, I'm Emily Angwin. Also, ahead on the
00:30:28program, Israel expands its so-called yellow line. in
00:30:32Gaza, forcing dozens of Palestinian families to flee in the
00:30:36middle the night. Pakistan declares a state of
00:30:40emergency in its northwestern province, suspending the provincial government
00:30:44the jailed former Prime Minister Imran Khan.
00:30:48And down, but not out, India's youth-led cockroach movement
00:30:52says they will continue protests demanding the election
00:30:55commissioner
00:30:56resigned.