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00:00:30perpetrators. time for
00:00:35Dzień dobry, Dominika Sitnicka, zapraszam państwa bardzo serdecznie na program
00:00:39Counterpoint program, and today we will cover
00:00:42the following topics:
00:00:45he planned an assassination attempt on the prime minister and the minister of national defense.
00:00:48The 66-year-old faces up to 15 years
00:00:51in prison. Zelensky under pressure
00:00:55from Trump. The Kremlin reacts to the words of the US
00:00:57president.
00:01:00New findings of the investigative committee on Pegasus, full access to
00:01:04operational data was only available to the Israeli
00:01:06company. And my guest and yours is Andrzej
00:01:10Mroczek, Center for Terrorism Research at Sivitas University, former policeman. Good morning.
00:01:13Good morning, good evening everyone.
00:01:17We already mentioned that yesterday a 66-year-old
00:01:20man was arrested. The arrest took place in Lower
00:01:23Silesia, and it seems that charges have not
00:01:27yet been filed against this man, but the
00:01:30reports from the services indicate that he
00:01:33was threatening the prime minister and deputy prime minister
00:01:35and even planning an assassination attempt, so I would
00:01:41here, do we have any evidence that ask first, because yesterday the sequence of events was also quite specific, because first
00:01:44we learned in the morning from the spokesperson of the Ministry of Interior,
00:01:47that there would be a briefing of the services on this matter, then that briefing
00:01:51took place, a briefing, and only then was there information about the arrest
00:01:54of the man, how, in your opinion,
00:01:57did this sequence unfold, was there anything in it?
00:02:02From my perspective, there was nothing
00:02:06strange about it, for a simple reason, because
00:02:11the chief of police said at I have experience in operational work
00:02:13in the past, working in the department for combating criminal terror and
00:02:17murder, which is, by the way, handling this
00:02:18case,
00:02:21there were situations where various politicians, even
00:02:25heads of state, were also targeted
00:02:28by various threats. this is nothing
00:02:32special, however, it certainly deserves
00:02:35greater
00:02:38attention that
00:02:40the police themselves or
00:02:42the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Administration
00:02:46emphasized that this is a very serious
00:02:49matter, meaning the stage, one can infer that
00:02:53the stage of preparations for planning
00:02:56the assassination was already at an advanced
00:02:59level, regarding this informational
00:03:05reports, analyses, it turns out message, well, honestly, yes, the police,
00:03:08not only the police, but also the services, use various
00:03:12methods of operational work, I will not
00:03:15go into the details and I will not inform you, but
00:03:18please believe me, these operational work methods
00:03:22are designed to, among other things,
00:03:26confirm and
00:03:29verify
00:03:32various behaviors, for this, various
00:03:35tools are used, in this case, for example,
00:03:39media, so I understand that announcing that there is
00:03:42such a signal, that the services received such information, could
00:03:46have been used to lure this person
00:03:50the privacy of citizens. Due to out, I will not go deep into it, but this
00:03:53is
00:03:56operational work, these are complex methods of operational work.
00:04:00which, among other things, use various
00:04:03tools, when
00:04:06information appeared in the media,
00:04:09that this man
00:04:13was politically motivated in planning
00:04:16you rightly pointed out at this attack, this
00:04:19already constitutes
00:04:22the hallmarks of a terrorist
00:04:26do these individual act, this is terrorism, because here we are dealing with...
00:05:25I'm sure you all remember the burning of the Starling station in September,
00:05:28on September 23 in Wola
00:05:31Korbowska.
00:05:34Already then we said that it was a sabotage
00:05:37action, a diversionary action, that we were dealing with arson.
00:05:41Today, after
00:05:44hard work by the Polish police, the Central Bureau
00:05:47of Police Investigation, the Internal Security
00:05:50Agency, in cooperation with the prosecution,
00:05:54in Germany,
00:05:58two Turkish citizens
00:06:01were arrested, who are responsible
00:06:04for this act of terror, who are responsible for
00:06:07this arson. The activities
00:06:10were carried out by the German Federal
00:06:14Criminal Office BKA on the basis
00:06:17of materials collected,
00:06:20prepared by the Polish police in
00:06:24cooperation with the Internal Security
00:06:27Agency.
00:06:30It is no secret that
00:06:33these individuals, after being transferred to Poland, will be charged
00:06:37with sabotage and diversion at the behest
00:06:40of foreign intelligence. Minister, ladies
00:06:44and gentlemen, thank you very much for this
00:06:47cooperation, indeed,
00:06:50this is another time that the police and the Internal Security
00:06:53Agency show that when
00:06:56they combine their forces, they apprehend these
00:06:59individuals who are suspects, and then
00:07:02they face Polish courts, I would like to emphasize the great
00:07:06work of the prosecutor's office, especially in recent days, we particularly thank the national
00:07:09prosecutor Dariusz Korneluk.
00:07:12because preparing all the documents required
00:07:15extraordinary action here, ladies
00:07:19and gentlemen, we have no doubt that
00:07:22Russian services
00:07:26are behind this act of diversion,
00:07:28and it is worth adding that Russian
00:07:31services are increasingly reaching for people
00:07:35associated with the criminal world,
00:07:37they never reach for their own citizens, we had dozens
00:07:41of Ukrainian citizens
00:07:45who were suspected, arrested, tried,
00:07:48expelled, were involved in acts
00:07:51of diversion in Poland, but we also
00:07:53had citizens of Colombia, citizens of other countries, this time we are dealing
00:07:57with commissioning such actions
00:08:00to Turkish citizens, I would like to emphasize
00:08:03that this work of the police and Internal Security Agency
00:08:07was incredibly laborious, incredibly
00:08:10demanding to open up all the details,
00:08:13let this achievement of our services also
00:08:17be a very strong warning to all those
00:08:20who are thinking of being commissioned
00:08:23to carry out such an act of diversion or an act
00:08:27of sabotage, we have excellent
00:08:31police, excellent officers in the Internal Security Agency,
00:08:34who can get to the bottom
00:08:37of every such situation, I will also remind you of the case
00:08:41of the Russian murder...
00:08:44the perpetrator connected with the criminal world was found,
00:08:48he is in custody, in various
00:08:51other situations, even if the perpetrators managed
00:08:54to escape from Poland, as in the case of diversionary acts near
00:08:58Garwolin, the perpetrators were identified and
00:09:01will be pursued until successful by our
00:09:04authorities around the world,
00:09:08so I want to emphasize, Minister Marcin
00:09:11spoke about this. very good cooperation with our
00:09:14partners, it is in various fields, with
00:09:18the German federal police, specifically with the BKA, and also with the German
00:09:21services, here our
00:09:24German partners showed that they can act swiftly
00:09:27and precisely, and for that I thank them, now, of course,
00:09:31the extradition procedure, we count on it with the minister, with the commander,
00:09:35that very quickly they will be
00:09:38in our hands, in Polish detention centers, and will be tried by...
00:10:12specific action, all of this was done by a special group
00:10:16that was then appointed
00:10:19to fully identify
00:10:22the perpetrators who committed this act
00:10:26of sabotage and diversion.
00:10:29I would like to thank the officers of the Central Bureau of Police Investigation, the Central Bureau
00:10:32for Combating Cybercrime, the officers of the provincial police in
00:10:36Kielce, and the officers of the Internal Security
00:10:40Agency who worked on this case from the very beginning.
00:10:43For us, this was an important case, and the group
00:10:47worked relentlessly until
00:10:50we found concrete
00:10:53evidence that
00:10:55this act of diversion
00:10:57was committed. Here, very good cooperation with the National Public Prosecutor's Office, with
00:11:01the Mazovian branch,
00:11:04allowed us not only to
00:11:08gather evidence, but also to apply to the court
00:11:11for the arrest of these two perpetrators,
00:11:14Turkish citizens. One of these perpetrators is
00:11:18a resident in Germany, the second
00:11:22person, also of Turkish nationality, who
00:11:25now has an order to leave Turkey, but in
00:11:28connection with being detained, I hope that she will be very quickly
00:11:32handed over to the Polish authorities to answer
00:11:36for the specific act
00:11:38in Poland that occurred. Ladies and gentlemen, all
00:11:42these actions that we carried out here in
00:11:46cooperation with the Internal Security Agency could be
00:11:49further appropriately prepared
00:11:53thanks to.
00:11:57officers of the Polish police and German police at Europol,
00:12:01the German police were involved in this,
00:12:04i.e. BKA and four federal states, which also took
00:12:08part in this arrest
00:12:10and of course the European
00:12:13Public Prosecutor's Office Eurojust, that is why all the evidence that we have
00:12:17gathered today clearly points to a concrete
00:12:21act of diversion, we have recordings. We have
00:12:25fingerprints, we have the DNA
00:12:28of the perpetrators, we know how they moved, we know when they
00:12:32arrived in Poland and we know when they were
00:12:36evacuated from Poland, as the ministers said,
00:12:39what matters here is
00:12:41who commits this act on whose
00:12:45orders. We have been dealing with these acts of sabotage and diversion
00:12:48since 2024. We have
00:12:52the burning of large stores, then what
00:12:55happened in Micy near Garwolin, when
00:12:59the perpetrators blew up
00:13:02a train, railway infrastructure, then
00:13:05this year we have acts
00:13:08of diversion in the form of arson in specific
00:13:11places and factories. Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, as
00:13:14you can see, this was a very intensive and laborious
00:13:18work and required the involvement of our
00:13:21European partners and
00:13:25our services, our police, internal security
00:13:28agencies, last week, because
00:13:31this is what we said, but we want it to be clear,
00:13:34arrest warrants were issued for both
00:13:38these individuals, European arrest warrants, and they
00:13:42were the basis for this arrest today, I want to emphasize
00:13:45very clearly once again that all materials
00:13:49concerning this arrest
00:13:51were prepared...
00:14:11or, as I understand, regarding the perpetration, there is no doubt based on
00:14:15monitoring and fingerprints and other traces,
00:14:18and regarding the order, is there evidence that it was
00:14:21a commissioned action and if so, by
00:14:24whom? How will you be able to
00:14:27prove that? As Minister Tomasz Siemoniak said,
00:14:30we are waiting and counting on the very rapid
00:14:33transfer of both these individuals to Poland, then
00:14:37we will, of course, conduct procedural actions with them,
00:14:40we have no doubt that it was,
00:14:43and the classification, as far as the charges
00:14:46are concerned, shows that
00:14:50there is no doubt that it was a commission
00:14:53by foreign services,
00:14:56Russian, but we are still waiting to complete our
00:15:00procedural actions, as part
00:15:03of the classification, these individuals will be charged
00:15:06with sabotage, acts of diversion, and acting on behalf of foreign
00:15:10intelligence.
00:15:11We will ask for the next question. Good evening,
00:15:14Karolina Nocek, TVP info, I just wanted to ask if there is a chance
00:15:18for clarification, when exactly we could expect
00:15:22that... Well, according to the applicable
00:15:28regulations, from the time of arrest, the German court has
00:15:3248 hours to decide whether they will be
00:15:36arrested in Germany, then
00:15:3990 days to decide whether there will be extradition or no
00:15:42extradition, so here,
00:15:46as such regulations exist in Poland and in most countries,
00:15:50so, but of course, as we said here, the minister, the commander,
00:15:54we have a sense of very strong evidence in
00:15:58this case and we believe that the procedure will
00:16:01proceed in such a way that
00:16:04the suspects will quickly find themselves in Poland, sir...
00:16:07the minister has probably covered everything, the court has
00:16:1140 to 90 days to indeed
00:16:14issue or otherwise respond
00:16:17to whether these citizens
00:16:20will be handed over to the Polish side. Thank you. Michał Dzieliński, Radio
00:16:24Z, good evening, I wanted to ask if it only concerns two people, or if this group could
00:16:27be larger, and if you could also clarify, these two
00:16:31people, one of them had already been banned from
00:16:35staying in Germany.
00:16:51One of these Turkish citizens was a resident in Germany, the other, because he did not obtain that status, was to be
00:16:54expelled from Germany and both of them lived in Germany, yes, they came
00:16:58to Poland for this action and
00:17:00left, of course, yes, these are
00:17:04Turkish citizens who reside in the area.
00:17:37in 2024, one of these coordinators is in our
00:17:41hands, he is in custody in Poland, one who commissioned, yes,
00:17:44however, in this case, we are talking about those who
00:17:47were directly involved in this action and we have
00:17:51justified, highly probable suspicions that
00:17:55there were more of these people, however, the direct
00:17:58perpetrators in terms of the arson, these are
00:18:01precisely these two Turkish citizens arrested
00:18:05today. I will ask again.
00:18:09Do you confirm that these were men, what
00:18:13was their age, and what could they face for the charges mentioned
00:18:17here? Well, we confirm
00:18:19that they were men of age, we will
00:18:22not say anything here, but please
00:18:26refer to Article 130 of the Penal Code,
00:18:30which speaks of cooperation with a foreign service or acting on its
00:18:33behalf,
00:18:35the court will operate within these frameworks, but
00:18:38of course, as we
00:18:41stand here, we know that first the German court, then
00:18:45the Polish court will decide on guilt, so then
00:18:47it will assess
00:18:51whether it will be the maximum sentence or some other,
00:18:55they are very much threatened with high penalties, of course,
00:18:59crimes under Article 130, they
00:19:01were, so that you too, Minister Tomasz Siemoniak
00:19:05said that the case is still developing, but these
00:19:08two are the people who physically came to Poland
00:19:12to carry out this act of terror,
00:19:16the documents that were collected by the police and the internal security
00:19:19agency are very strong and solid in this
00:19:22regard, when it comes to securing this
00:19:25type of commercial, yes, but has
00:19:29and in what way that security
00:19:31changed, Mr.
00:19:34Editor, this is a facility
00:19:37leased by a company, but it does not
00:19:41matter, it is infrastructure that
00:19:43serves the security of Poland, but also strengthens fighting
00:19:47Ukraine, so we are also talking to
00:19:51all critical infrastructure operators about strengthening
00:19:54the protection of these facilities,
00:19:58and I think that gradually these facilities are increasingly better
00:20:02protected, but probably due to the activity, the hostile
00:20:05activity of people.
00:20:38which I, which I supervise, namely the Central Investigation Bureau, the Central
00:20:41Bureau for Combating Cybercrime, but also officers of the Internal
00:20:45Security Agency, because it allowed us to
00:20:49indeed.
00:21:06and today we have the finale of this event, which is the arrest of these perpetrators in
00:21:09Germany, now searches are still underway
00:21:12in the homes and places of residence of these
00:21:16very
00:21:20us,
00:21:29so that we can work well and
00:21:32then we are able to
00:21:35carry out these specific cases in such a unique
00:21:38way, so important today from the point of view of overall
00:21:41security in Europe, thank you
00:21:44very much, we are ending today's conference, see
00:21:46you.
00:21:50and with me in the studio is Andrzej Mroczek, Center for Terrorism Research at
00:21:54Sivitas University, well, exactly, these two
00:21:56men were apprehended, who committed the arson of the
00:22:00Starling station, also, as we heard a moment
00:22:03ago during the conference, well,
00:22:06everything indicates that there were more people involved in this, but
00:22:09the services also have no doubt that it was commissioned by Russia,
00:22:13I understand that when the proceedings with these
00:22:16people begin, then there is also a chance to
00:22:19get to the bottom of this commission, first
00:22:23of all, I take my hat off
00:22:26and congratulate all colleagues, officers for
00:22:30truly hard work, because it was in a short
00:22:32period, they gathered sufficient evidence
00:22:36to verify this evidence
00:22:39in order to identify these direct
00:22:43perpetrators, as well as to link it, because it is, of course, international cooperation, without
00:22:47which there would be nothing
00:22:50of what we just
00:22:53heard, it should also be
00:22:57taken into account that, as
00:23:01the end, that currently activities related
00:23:03to searches of places,
00:23:06known places in Germany, are underway, a phenomenon
00:23:10that was, by the way, predictable
00:23:13when it comes to potential perpetrators who
00:23:17come to Poland, stay for a short time,
00:23:21leave, which means they think they
00:23:24will go unpunished because they are not in Poland, which
00:23:28is a big mistake on their part,
00:23:31of course,
00:23:34this is also a lesson and has a preventive
00:23:37effect, but I'm getting to the point
00:23:40that criminal
00:23:43circles, in Germany there is a very large
00:23:46Turkish diaspora, criminal
00:23:49circles. Germany, by the way, has a very big, serious problem
00:23:52with organized Turkish crime on its
00:23:55territory, these criminal
00:23:58environments of organized criminal
00:24:02groups have the characteristic that they don't really care
00:24:06who they get money from,
00:24:08that is, the commission, especially if there are still some
00:24:12intermediaries, they use liaisons, so
00:24:15they don't really know, they could have
00:24:18guessed, if they... go and have a specific
00:24:22goal to commit an act of terror
00:24:25against a specific target, well, well,
00:24:28they should then, if they realized, they should withdraw,
00:24:32if they realized that
00:24:35they were acting on behalf of some services, since they did not
00:24:39withdraw, it means they were aware that they were acting on behalf of other
00:24:43services, of course, here both
00:24:46the prosecutor's office and the police or the security agency...
00:24:50certainly possesses even more materials, which
00:24:54we will learn about in the near future, when the proceedings
00:24:57against these
00:25:00arrested men are concluded,
00:25:03and as
00:25:06the very beginning of the question, these two
00:25:10people also certainly
00:25:13participated in this with other
00:25:16people, perhaps from the same environment from which the
00:25:20direct perpetrators come, but this also
00:25:23shows how effective
00:25:27our services are, because I am truly full of admiration, despite
00:25:31all these events
00:25:34that we experience
00:25:37in Poland, which are largely
00:25:41initiated, not all, but largely initiated, I am talking about acts
00:25:45of terror by the Russian
00:25:48Federation, well, this shows.
00:25:55that the inevitability of punishment will meet everyone, thank you very much for this conversation, my guest
00:25:58and yours was Andrzej Mroczek from the Center for Terrorism Research at the University.
00:26:09I believe Ukraine should hold elections. Zelensky could have
00:26:12ended this war many times over, he should call elections. He
00:26:16also cannot raise oil prices. He has enough already. This war
00:26:20should never have started. A war between
00:26:22Ukraine and Russia should never have
00:26:24happened.
00:26:34President Trump stated that Ukraine needs a new president, first of all,
00:26:37with all due respect to President Trump, our society, our nation
00:26:41decides on the choice of this or that leader. Yes, we are fighting
00:26:45a war, and holding elections is really difficult, moreover, it is not
00:26:48safe at all and goes beyond the current legal and
00:26:51constitutional framework. I proposed the following solution: tell
00:26:55Putin to give us 60 days of a complete ceasefire, within
00:26:59these two months we will organize elections. If that happens.
00:27:02we will, of course, be ready to accept any decision
00:27:05made by the Ukrainian
00:27:07nation.
00:27:09And with me in the studio is Magdalena Górnicka-Partyka, author of the book "What after
00:27:13Trump: America at a Crossroads." Good morning. Good morning. And on the line with
00:27:17us is also Mariusz Marszałkowski, deputy editor-in-chief of Defense
00:27:2024. Good morning. Good
00:27:23morning, welcome. This is probably the biggest, well,
00:27:27the biggest news of this weekend, that is, what Donald Trump announced
00:27:30on Friday, namely. the agreement with Russia regarding
00:27:34the purchase of diesel fuel, first
00:27:38I would like to ask you what is really going on
00:27:43the amount of diesel fuel that Donald
00:27:46Trump is to buy from Russia, it will significantly
00:27:50affect how these prices will look,
00:27:53because this whole story doesn't quite add up here, because the United
00:27:57States is after all the largest exporter of diesel fuel, Russia
00:28:01itself has its own internal problems.
00:28:03It is difficult to unravel this situation, what is
00:28:06going on, Magdalena Górnicka- Partyka? If you don't know what it's about, it's about
00:28:10the upcoming midterm elections, which are already on November 3rd, and Donald Trump is doing
00:28:14everything to ensure that Republicans don't lose, or that they lose as little as possible,
00:28:17when it comes to these elections, and Americans are fed up with high
00:28:21prices of gasoline, diesel fuel, and Donald Trump has to
00:28:24put on such a political show, in which he shows voters that he has an idea how to deal with
00:28:27this, how to fight these high prices, well, the idea
00:28:30is an agreement with Russia. 65% of Americans, according to an Associated
00:28:34Press poll, believe that Donald Trump is behind the fact
00:28:37that the cost of living has increased, that it is getting more expensive, and it is clear that
00:28:41the American president does not really have an idea how to get out of this, and he needs
00:28:44guilty, so he found Zelensky, who is guilty of rising prices,
00:28:48diesel prices, and found a solution, which is an agreement with Putin, so here
00:28:52it is exclusively about current political needs
00:28:55of Donald Trump, that is, gaining votes, well, exactly
00:28:58Mr. Editor, maybe I will ask you again, but in that case, is
00:29:02there any chance at all, because also if you read some
00:29:07that the amount we are talking about, 3000 tons,
00:29:11that is actually the demand for one day for such internal
00:29:15transport in the states, so is this some
00:29:18kind of simply theater that is supposed to show that Donald Trump is
00:29:21trying, or is someone in his
00:29:24administration convinced that this will affect
00:29:27diesel prices, how does
00:29:29that look?
00:29:33The first thing is, I have to correct that a bit, because Americans are not
00:29:37exporters of diesel, they actually
00:29:40import heavy fuel fractions,
00:29:44because from their type of oil, the most
00:29:47effective production is gasoline production, while
00:29:51diesel, or heating oil, often has to be
00:29:54imported, often previously imported from
00:29:57Persian Gulf countries, Venezuela,
00:30:00and before the imposition of sanctions on Russia in
00:30:042022, Russia was one of the key
00:30:08suppliers of heavy fuel fractions such as heating oil to
00:30:12the United States, then that ended, and today
00:30:15Donald Trump is effectively unfreezing these sanctions that were
00:30:19imposed years ago, allowing Russian
00:30:23fuels, finished petroleum products, to
00:30:25enter the American market,
00:30:29deliveries change anything? As a rule, no.
00:30:32As a rule, they don't change anything, because these quantities, these values we are talking about
00:30:36are small, and as you mentioned, it's more
00:30:39hours of consumption, rather than
00:30:42weeks or months, but what is
00:30:45important is the change in this policy, which has so far been very
00:30:49stable in terms of maintaining international sanctions on Russia,
00:30:53Americans, already in the first
00:30:56element, are withdrawing themselves in the context of energy
00:30:59sanctions. The reason is that
00:31:15the price of fuel on international
00:31:18markets is jumping, but another reason
00:31:22is that, let's remember, Americans were importing
00:31:25large quantities of diesel from Canada, and Canada
00:31:29today is one of the main players with whom Donald Trump
00:31:32is waging a rather sharp political
00:31:35war over trade agreements
00:31:38or tariffs, so this permission for Russia to
00:31:42import fuel from Russia is
00:31:45a trigger that is a result
00:31:49of, on one hand, the policy of the United States under
00:31:52Donald Trump, and on the other hand, the very bad situation on the fuel market in
00:31:56the United States, because the situation is indeed
00:32:00difficult, fuel reserves in the United States are dwindling,
00:32:03and the number of directions from which to import fuel has
00:32:07very, very decreased, so
00:32:11hence this decision to open up to Russia.
00:32:14Hmm. I would also ask about the second thread of what happened over
00:32:18the weekend. Yesterday, Donald Trump also announced that, well,
00:32:21in fact, he had negotiated, I guess you could say, on True
00:32:25Social, that he had negotiated this truce in
00:32:28attacking energy infrastructure on both sides. It turned
00:32:32out that the Ukrainians knew nothing about it, and the Russians
00:32:35also didn't know. Now they are even saying that
00:32:39they are not particularly interested, so, well, exactly
00:32:42my next question also boils down to... why
00:32:46such a move, was it, or was it really just
00:32:50another such signal for domestic
00:32:53politics, or I don't know, was it some kind of attempt to present
00:32:57both Ukraine and Russia with a fait accompli, how
00:33:00should we actually interpret what is happening? Donald Trump governs by fait accompli
00:33:04and it was definitely an attempt to do so, he wanted to try, maybe
00:33:07this time it would work again, especially since he had made an agreement
00:33:11with Putin regarding diesel, so he
00:33:15hoped that maybe this was a good start, and the next step would be
00:33:18this energy agreement. Let's also remember that Donald Trump
00:33:22constantly boasts that he recently ended eight wars, so the ninth
00:33:25is still ahead of him, and in the context of the elections, this is also another
00:33:29potential plus for his
00:33:32favor. Let's also remember that Donald
00:33:35Trump, well, has very bad relations with Zelensky recently, and
00:33:39blames Volodymyr Zelensky personally for
00:33:42the rising prices of gasoline, and diesel in the United
00:33:45States, so he had to increase this pressure to
00:33:49persuade Ukraine to make concessions, but as
00:33:52Volodymyr Zelensky said today at the Warsaw Security Forum, Vladimir
00:33:56Putin does not read True Social, and this truce ended quite
00:33:59quickly, but the Ukrainian president himself proposed that he could make
00:34:03such a deal with him, because it is he, after all,
00:34:05Ukraine
00:34:08attacks Russian oil targets, so maybe it's worth
00:34:11agreeing, and there was also, I think, an addition that...
00:34:15this truce, this ceasefire, is to concern only refineries,
00:34:18which Ukraine has already destroyed, so Russian refineries are being
00:34:22attacked, meaning it's like that, yes, Donald Trump
00:34:25defined it very one-sidedly, that's true, Donald
00:34:29Trump has recently been very strongly influencing Volodymyr Zelensky, he
00:34:33even said that it might be time to change the Ukrainian leader, they have a very
00:34:37long history of disagreement between them since 2019,
00:34:40when a conversation with Zelensky led to Donald Trump's first
00:34:44impeachment trial, so it's not a very rough friendship, if we can call
00:34:47it that, rough relations between the two leaders, and for Donald Trump,
00:34:51relations between leaders are indeed relations between
00:34:55states, he very strongly projects personal relations onto relations or interests
00:34:58of states, and if these relations are not the best, then these interests do not
00:35:02align, Mr. Editor, I would ask you what the international
00:35:05consequences of this deal that Donald Trump concluded might
00:35:09be, because as I understand it, nothing suggests he will withdraw from it yet.
00:35:13This concerning diesel.
00:35:16On the other hand, today the European
00:35:20Union foreign ministers agreed that
00:35:23an extended package of sanctions will be introduced,
00:35:26but this is still a very, very serious breach
00:35:29in this sanctions policy against Russia?
00:35:33Well, the first thing is, I'll refer back to
00:35:36this ceasefire. It is, of course, in my opinion,
00:35:39pressure on the Ukrainians, because the Russians
00:35:43will continue to
00:35:51attack power transmission stations
00:35:54or distribution stations, that will continue,
00:35:57that will be implemented, because from the perspective of the Americans,
00:36:00they essentially don't care what the energy
00:36:04system of Ukraine will look like this winter,
00:36:07from Washington's perspective, it's
00:36:09oil infrastructure that matters, but not Ukraine's, but Russia's. This
00:36:13is, in my opinion, a signal that, on the one hand, Trump
00:36:17or the United States wants to show
00:36:20balancing, this equilibrium, but primarily it's about
00:36:24protecting oil export facilities.
00:36:29Russian ones, those that can bring additional fuel to the market,
00:36:32but how will this affect the international situation?
00:36:36Let's remember that Russia is one of the main producers of fuels, it is a
00:36:40producer of gasoline, diesel,
00:36:42in recent months these main products
00:36:46of Russian refineries have stopped being exported abroad,
00:36:50because a large part of Russian refineries, which are
00:36:53located... they are in the European part of Russia, have been
00:36:56attacked at least once by Ukrainian drones, of course
00:37:00these repairs are being carried out, the Russians
00:37:04are restoring production capacity, but it's not easy, it costs
00:37:07time and money, and because the Russian market
00:37:10is also absorbent, it also needs large quantities of
00:37:14fuel, so for export of this fuel, either nothing
00:37:18at all goes, or very small quantities went
00:37:21in previous months, and what now? If Russian oil
00:37:24or fuels are indeed exported, let's remember that until the end
00:37:28of October there is a ban on the export of diesel
00:37:31established by Russia, so Russia would have to
00:37:35lift this ban, this export ban,
00:37:39well, the situation will probably not
00:37:42change. If oil or finished fuels, meaning this
00:37:46diesel, can flow, then it will probably
00:37:49have some impact on world fuel prices.
00:37:53Because let's remember that these fuels affect
00:37:56the world market, and if we are short
00:38:00of fuels from the Persian Gulf, Middle Eastern
00:38:03countries, then Russian fuels will certainly find their buyers,
00:38:06which will also reduce such a supply,
00:38:10reduce tensions on the supply market.
00:38:13Therefore, we will see how the situation
00:38:16develops. For now, the Russians themselves
00:38:19are short of fuel, so that is unlikely to
00:38:22change in the next few weeks. I would also ask at
00:38:25the end, perhaps, because there have already been some voices,
00:38:29even from individual, it's true, Republicans, that this
00:38:33is a betrayal, here there was a reference to Lindsey
00:38:35Graham, such a strongly pro-Ukrainian
00:38:39politician, who died a few weeks ago, but I wanted to
00:38:43ask, because there were also such declarations from
00:38:46Republican congressmen that there would be
00:38:49an attempt to block this decision, this agreement with
00:38:52Vladimir Putin, do you think there is any chance of that, or is
00:38:56this still a song after the midterm elections?
00:38:59I think it will be very difficult before the midterm elections. Donald
00:39:03Trump has learned to govern without Congress and doesn't really care what Congress says
00:39:07or what Congress promises, so if the Republicans maintain a majority in
00:39:11these midterm elections, then Donald Trump will be able to do what he wants. If
00:39:15the majority in Congress changes, then perhaps
00:39:18adequate, or will actually be effective in stopping
00:39:22this agreement with... we were told, ladies and gentlemen,
00:39:25that Pegasus was to be used to fight
00:39:40spies and terrorists.
00:39:44The commission found that this was a myth,
00:39:46a myth repeated by politicians of
00:39:50the then government, the system could not work on
00:39:54numbers registered in Russia, China,
00:39:58North Korea, Israel or Belarus.
00:40:01A narrative was created about the necessity of fighting dangerous
00:40:05crime and terrorism. The report,
00:40:07however, proves that this argument was
00:40:10merely a pretext for acquiring a tool with unlimited
00:40:14interference in
00:40:18the fact that Pegasus is a dual-use technology, its sale requires
00:40:21the individual consent for export from the Israeli
00:40:25Ministry of Defense. What and under what
00:40:29conditions Polish services would use
00:40:32Pegasus was decided by
00:40:35the government of a foreign country, and with
00:40:39me in the studio are Paweł Bliźniuk, Civic Coalition, good
00:40:42morning, Andrzej Szejna, New Left, good morning, and Paweł Lisiecki,
00:40:46Law and Justice, good morning. In a second, I will talk to
00:40:49the gentlemen about Pegasus, about
00:40:51this final report that was presented
00:40:55today, about the public part.
00:40:57First, I have a question for you, Mr. Minister, because yesterday
00:41:01a lot of information appeared in various media about
00:41:03Dr. Michał Peno, who was supposed to become Deputy
00:41:07Commissioner for Human Rights on behalf of the New Left. This was announced,
00:41:11Dr. Adam Krzywoń lost his
00:41:15position, then it turned out that
00:41:18Dr. Peno would not be taking up this position. What
00:41:22actually happened and why did the New Left want
00:41:25this position and then withdrew from it?
00:41:28I'd be happy to answer you, but we don't have
00:41:32any knowledge on this topic and frankly, I don't
00:41:35have any influence or
00:41:38took part in these negotiations. Well, okay, but in that
00:41:42case, what is your assessment as a member of the New Left, should it look like this,
00:41:45because I have a quote from officials of the Commissioner's
00:41:49office for Human Rights, that never in the history of the
00:41:53office has there been a transfer from politics to this
00:41:56institution, well, precisely in such a way that here,
00:42:00after all, good practice has been violated, how does it look? Well,
00:42:03I emphasize again, neither this candidacy nor this topic was discussed
00:42:07at any forum, whether it was...
00:42:40if I usually have any, they concern changes in the government or in such
00:42:44positions that are political in nature, and in these types of
00:42:47decisions, also as a member of, for example, the national board, I participate,
00:42:50but this matter is completely unknown to me, and it is not an escape
00:42:54from my part from the answer. Well, okay, but just one sentence, how do you assess
00:42:58what happened? It's hard to assess something I don't know,
00:43:01so
00:43:04I told you exactly how the situation looked, it is
00:43:07God, was it supposed to be? The Left was
00:43:10not ultimately, it's such that a person was already dismissed so that he would take
00:43:14the position, but when the matter reached the media, they withdrew from it,
00:43:18well, you probably have to ask those who made such decisions.
00:43:22If it came down to it, as I understand,
00:43:25the matter is such that no one holds this position, it is vacant at the moment,
00:43:29right? Yes, yes, it was supposed to be filled, but it turned out to be quite
00:43:32problematic. I would be happy to delve deeply into this discussion if I had
00:43:36even minimal knowledge. I personally believe that
00:43:40such positions as the Commissioner for Human Rights
00:43:44or judges, we also discussed that, require
00:43:47appropriate substantive background, right? Certainly,
00:43:50if the candidacy, even if it was, as you say, put forward by
00:43:54the New Left, it had such a substantive background, but how it happened, whether
00:43:57it really was as you described it, I don't have that knowledge.
00:44:00We already had such a debate, for example, around Judge
00:44:03Maciej Berek, where ultimately both the Left and
00:44:07I voted for his candidacy, despite the fact that...
00:44:10he moved from almost directly a ministerial position to
00:44:13a judge of the Constitutional Tribunal, it caused a lot of
00:44:17discussion, a lot of storm, and such matters always cause controversy,
00:44:20so I'm not surprised that this, well, I promised that
00:44:24Pegasus would also be discussed today, the commission
00:44:27presented the public part of this report.
00:44:29In short, it can also be said that
00:44:3311 officials
00:44:35will probably be charged,
00:44:37because the commission has filed
00:44:39notifications with the prosecutor's office.
00:44:42One by one, there is a prosecutor who conducted
00:44:45the investigation into Krzysztof Brejza, Zbigniew Ziobro, Mariusz Kamiński, Maciej
00:44:49Wąsik, Michał Woś, Ernest Bejda, Maciej Materka, Piotr
00:44:52Pogonowski, from ABW, Maciej Szpanowski, Mr.
00:44:55MP, the Pegasus case is back,
00:44:58there may be more charges, we know more and more, we know
00:45:02that, after all, the data
00:45:06was available to an Israeli company, even Polish services did not have
00:45:09such access to this data that was collected
00:45:12using Pegasus. How will you comment on this?
00:45:15In this way, dear lady, 14
00:45:19countries in the European Union used Pegasus, at least 14
00:45:22countries in the European Union, there are also proceedings in this matter
00:45:26and there were also at the European level, there was also a commission in the European
00:45:30Parliament regarding the use of Pegasus as exceeding certain
00:45:33certain one thing, meaning standards or
00:45:37exceeding the law, because those are two different.
00:46:10they even have such a system that can surveil devices in this way,
00:46:13the courts didn't know about it, the public didn't know, how were
00:46:16the courts supposed to know, but Mr. Editor, excuse me, what were the judges
00:46:20signing who gave consent for operational control,
00:46:23not being aware of what it consisted of, excuse me, and what,
00:46:27what is the difference here in your opinion when it comes to eventual
00:46:31searching for people who commit
00:46:35crimes, when it comes to Pegasus or other operational
00:46:38control, if, if there is a suspicion
00:46:41of a crime, there is also the judge's
00:46:45consent, if there was no suspicion of a crime, then
00:46:49such consent should not be given, that is for me.
00:46:53The second thing is also that during these 5 years
00:46:56of using Pegasus,
00:46:59approximately 600 people
00:47:02were surveilled. I would like to remind you that one of the people who
00:47:05were surveilled and who were caught is Pablo
00:47:09Rubcov, Paweł Rubcov, Pablo Gonzalez. Thanks to
00:47:13Pegasus, this man ended up in a Polish prison. The current
00:47:17government unfortunately released him, so in my
00:47:20opinion, but excuse me, but you are making an accusation that the government, as part of
00:47:24international agreements on prisoner exchanges,
00:47:27is releasing people. Well, I have a question, what did Poland get
00:47:30in exchange for Pablo Rubtsov, what prisoner was
00:47:34released who would be Polish, because I don't recall
00:47:38anyone Polish being released from a Belarusian
00:47:41prison for Pablo Rubtsov, so, dear lady,
00:47:45it would be good if now, I have a question here for
00:47:49you all, with a skewer or a game that
00:48:22you remember from your youth, you really mocked, you said that there was no
00:48:26such thing, there are recordings and it's worth remembering them and
00:48:30three threads, because this scandal, this case has three threads. The first is
00:48:34the question of what funds Pegasus was purchased
00:48:37with, and it was done secretly using the Justice
00:48:40Fund, which was supposed to be used to allocate funds for
00:48:44victims of crimes, meaning they robbed those who were and are victims
00:48:48of crimes, by buying a secret cybernetic weapon. that is truly a disaster, it is a disaster,
00:49:32meaning today the prime minister spoke about it, but it was also spoken about
00:49:36earlier, we have confirmation that
00:49:39data
00:49:41collected using this
00:49:44cybernetic weapon was transferred to servers
00:49:48linked to Israel, directly into the hands of.
00:50:22for the security of our state, they should be held
00:50:26accountable for this, simply, this is a matter right now, the second
00:50:29issue is, we also need to draw systemic conclusions regarding
00:50:32how certain operations should be conducted,
00:50:36we have a law that strengthens judicial oversight over the activities of services,
00:50:40it was passed by parliament, signed by the president, and this
00:50:43is such a systemic conclusion, so to speak.
00:50:47However, there are three threads: funds from the Justice
00:50:50Fund allocated for a
00:50:53weapon in a secret, hidden way, a cyberweapon for
00:50:57surveilling the opposition, journalists,
00:51:00prosecutors, those who were inconvenient, and in the end
00:51:03it turned out that this data that was acquired was and was
00:51:06transferred into the hands of foreign intelligence services. Okay, I'll let
00:51:10the MP speak now, because he wanted to comment on the fact that it was excluded
00:51:14for phone numbers from Russia, Belarus, and Korea, North, precisely
00:51:17because when there is operational control on these
00:51:21numbers, Russian services will have
00:51:24information that someone is being surveilled, therefore
00:51:28these types of actions are simply normal
00:51:31actions, and one more thing, because you stated that journalists
00:51:34were surveilled, one of those journalists was precisely
00:51:38Pablo
00:51:41Gonzalez, who was precisely caught thanks to
00:51:44Pegasus, and one more thing, I hope
00:51:48that currently Polish services have such
00:51:51a system,
00:51:58because these are the cases we are talking about, Krzysztof Brejza, who was
00:52:01at that time, when he was being surveilled, the campaign manager, because here we are talking about.
00:52:16for the surveillance of the people you mentioned, because it would be good to ask him
00:52:20why he agreed to it, judges, there were interviews with
00:52:23judges who said that judges were not aware that such
00:52:27a thing existed, now, if finally a law has been introduced,
00:52:30which excuse
00:52:34me,
00:53:05cases, which both the MP and you, Madam Editor,
00:53:08mentioned, this was not the purpose of purchasing this program by Mr.
00:53:12Ziobro illegally, Mr. Ziobro, who is now in
00:53:15the United States and does not dare to come to
00:53:19Poland, because he would be immediately arrested and finally brought to justice,
00:53:23or Mr. Romanowski, who also in connection with
00:53:26the illegal use of funds from the Justice Fund, also
00:53:30fled the country, I will tell you this, there are several
00:53:33charges, the way
00:53:42in which one can surveil people, whether journalists, or
00:53:45politicians, or judges, or even their
00:53:48own party colleagues, because from what we know, this probably also happened,
00:53:52is so far-reaching, one can say, it interferes with
00:53:56personal life, then all these information,
00:53:59which can sometimes concern personal life, matters,
00:54:02illnesses, some various. extremely sensitive
00:54:05matters were transferred to
00:54:09the control of most likely a foreign intelligence or
00:54:12counterintelligence service, sir, please, sir,
00:54:15today
00:54:18the sale of this program is approved by
00:54:21the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Israel, therefore, what
00:54:25you have led to by acting illegally, is endangering
00:54:28the Polish state, you have endangered not only private individuals, but also
00:54:31individuals holding state functions. And
00:54:35if you talk about judges, because now you want to shift the blame for these
00:54:39decisions to judges, no, sir, judges, time and again, to whom
00:54:42evidence is provided, which
00:54:46forms the basis for making this decision, act under the
00:54:49pressure of the prosecutor's office during the conducted
00:54:52investigation, as you say, for example in cases of espionage,
00:54:55information, pressure from the prosecutor's office, if
00:54:58such a standard, under
00:55:01nacuratory.