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00:00:06Good evening, everyone, Justyna Dobroszora, which means I invite you to today's question. With me and with you is
00:00:10the chairwoman of the investigative commission for Pegasus affairs, Magdalena Sroka,
00:00:14also a member of the Polish People's Party. Good evening. Good evening,
00:00:18Madam Editor, good evening everyone. Over two years of the commission's work, and
00:00:21I must admit, I think no commission has had it so hard as
00:00:25yours. Did the truth turn out to be more
00:00:28shocking for you?
00:00:30in the investigation. I will than the reports of independent media? I
00:00:34classified part, at am in the comfortable situation of also knowing the classified material
00:00:38that the commission has gathered, and there are indeed
00:00:41such cases described that would shock
00:00:44absolutely everyone who would familiarize themselves
00:00:48with this topic,
00:00:51Pegasus. The Pegasus commission is the commission that
00:00:54had the most problems, it touched upon the most
00:00:57sensitive topic, which is surveillance.
00:01:09What is in this classified part, we will talk about it soon, about what today for several hours, as
00:01:13you and the MPs reported, your findings, but also this
00:01:16classified part, since we brought up this topic, are there
00:01:20names there, does the commission know the names of public figures
00:01:23who were surveilled, about whom we do not yet know, for example? The commission
00:01:26analyzed several examples to show how the whole thing looked.
00:01:30However, in the classified part there will be names that have not
00:01:34yet appeared, and parliamentarians will hear about it during
00:01:37a closed session of the Sejm. Does this also concern
00:01:40journalists, were journalists surveilled?
00:01:44And here I must make a comma or a period, I cannot
00:01:47talk about what is in the classified part of the report,
00:01:51but the names that are there will probably surprise more than one politician
00:01:55who will hear it at this session
00:01:58of the Sejm. I neither deny nor confirm. Madam MP, Madam
00:02:01Chairwoman, the report reveals that Pegasus could not be used
00:02:05against numbers registered in, for example, Russia, China, North
00:02:08Korea, Israel, or Belarus. So I will ask such a question,
00:02:12so what, so no really serious spy could
00:02:16be caught by this system? Well,
00:02:19PiS politicians today are trying very
00:02:21openly, even with great certainty, to talk about the spies they
00:02:25caught. Well, no, they did not have the ability to
00:02:28surveil numbers...
00:02:37the Pegasus system was deactivated, so these are
00:02:40nonsense stories that the gentlemen from Law and Justice are telling. Today
00:02:43they are talking about it and trying to pull the wool over our eyes, but
00:02:47in fact they did not have such capabilities, it was in a certain sense
00:02:51an alibi for Law and Justice, but I will ask directly, did the PiS
00:02:54government secretly buy Pegasus for
00:02:57spying, but certainly... only critics of the government, was
00:03:01it conceived from the beginning, do you have such certainty after these
00:03:04months of difficult hearings, where witnesses had to
00:03:07be brought in, they never appeared before the commission,
00:03:10did this thesis, which appeared in many journalistic materials, from
00:03:14the time of the PiS government, did it
00:03:16confirm itself?
00:03:18Very different people
00:03:21were surveilled and today
00:03:24we say directly that they interfered
00:03:28with what opposition politicians were
00:03:30doing. Politicians who spoke out loudly against the government, not only
00:03:34politicians, but also prosecutors, judges,
00:03:37lawyers, these were people who were opposed
00:03:40to the previous government, but it wasn't just such
00:03:44people, we're talking about several hundred people against
00:03:47whom the Pegasus system was used. Currently, the National Prosecutor's Office,
00:03:51Team Three, is conducting an investigation, and due to
00:03:54the good of the investigation,
00:03:57it has not released the list that everyone
00:04:01is talking about, concerning the people against whom
00:04:04the system was used. However, more people are
00:04:08learning with each passing week and month that they have been
00:04:11wronged in the Pegasus investigation,
00:04:15but they are not disclosing this to the public. They have the
00:04:18right to do so, and we must respect that. Let's
00:04:21wait for the investigation to conclude. Currently, seven people have been charged,
00:04:25and one person already has
00:04:28an indictment. Next... people, today we submitted
00:04:31further notifications of the possibility of committing a crime. During
00:04:35our work, we submitted notifications against the heads
00:04:38of the CBA, ABW, SKW.
00:04:42These gentlemen have already been charged. Now I expect
00:04:45that we, as a commission, doing our part, which is
00:04:48politically presenting and investigating the whole matter, today the
00:04:52prosecutor's office will take over, which will soon draw up indictments, and we, as
00:04:56society, will be able to observe the trials,
00:05:00court decisions of the court, and ultimately the guilt or
00:05:04innocence of all those who, in our opinion, in political opinion,
00:05:08broke the law. The case of the prime minister's daughter
00:05:11and the wife of Mr. Prime Minister Tusk
00:05:15caused a stir a few months ago, were they wiretapped? It is never
00:05:18the case that people against whom the system for operational control
00:05:22is used are the only people who are
00:05:25wiretapped. If such a system was installed
00:05:29on Roman Giertych's phone, and he
00:05:31talked to various people around him, then those
00:05:35people were also
00:05:36listened to.
00:05:39Which were collected
00:05:43also talk more about this matter in the
00:05:47a closed session of the Sejm. We know that their phones were rummaged through, this
00:05:50Pegasus, one could say, was indeed a spectacular
00:05:53tool in its mode of operation, but
00:05:57did you perhaps come across information that politicians or
00:06:00people dangerous to the then government were also wiretapped in
00:06:04real time, was there someone in the services, I don't know, who was listening
00:06:07to this? These are already
00:06:09such,
00:06:13this is something that fundamentally does not matter, what matters however
00:06:16is the fact that the system was
00:06:20not fully, all its elements, within the protective zone of the Central
00:06:23Anti-Corruption Bureau, to my great
00:06:27surprise, these were not the rooms that
00:06:30I remember from my time in service, these were rooms
00:06:34where, for example, officers could bring in
00:06:37mobile phones, this should never have happened, so...
00:06:41mieć miejsca, także...
00:06:47shows that not only was this system under
00:06:50the control of the Israeli company, the manufacturer, which had
00:06:54authorization codes, which had administrative
00:06:57codes for this entire system, but also one of
00:07:00the modules was permanently located in Israel. Today, PiS
00:07:04politicians are trying to say and explain that the
00:07:07data was transmitted encrypted with the highest standards, which is
00:07:10absolute nonsense, because... why are encrypted data
00:07:14transmitted if the administrator,
00:07:17the Israeli company, during
00:07:19the updates of this system, during
00:07:23the fixing of technical errors, has access
00:07:26to this tool, and operational controls are still ongoing, meaning
00:07:29they are wiretapping at the same time. And
00:07:32soon, Madam MP, we will continue these interesting threads.
00:07:36I invite you to TVP
00:07:37Info.
00:07:42The Prime Minister said today that it is not just a scandal, but a crime
00:07:46of state, what you were just talking about, but I wanted
00:07:50to ask you, did you get to, because it was an
00:07:54ABW letter, there was a problem to make it public,
00:07:57reveal it, because I heard unofficial information that you had a tough time
00:08:00to reveal this expertise to the public,
00:08:04that in fact the state did not know who
00:08:08had control over this, well, anyone could have it. We
00:08:12first... we turned to the National Prosecutor's Office
00:08:15to appoint experts and examine this tool, which was still
00:08:19located in the Central Anti-Corruption
00:08:22Bureau, so that a team of specialists
00:08:25could be appointed who would be able to answer such a question. It took a long time,
00:08:29in the meantime we received a partial analysis, which
00:08:33directly indicated that one of the modules was located in
00:08:36Israel. This already indicated that there was no full control
00:08:39over the system. Just before...
00:08:42the completion and presentation of the report to you, we received
00:08:46a top secret document, which is
00:08:49an analysis, which also
00:08:52refers to those inspections that were
00:08:56carried out at the Central Anti-Corruption Bureau, and there are
00:08:59details. Part of the materials was declassified by the decision
00:09:02of the Prosecutor General and handed over to the commission, which is why today I can
00:09:06say directly, it is not true that
00:09:10a foreign company did not have access. to this data, it had it whenever
00:09:13it wanted. This is shocking, that there were
00:09:17people who, contrary to what the services themselves
00:09:21said at the beginning of this whole story
00:09:24back in 2017, that this is
00:09:27a dangerous tool, that we should not use it,
00:09:30that we can use other tools, that there were
00:09:34such people who made the decision to allocate
00:09:37funds for the purchase of this system that should have been used
00:09:41for victims of crimes. That there were such
00:09:44politicians who made a political decision, because it was
00:09:48first and foremost a political decision, to acquire such a system. Zbigniew
00:09:51Ziobro was brought before the commission, he himself admitted that he was
00:09:55the initiator, but today the commission revealed
00:09:58that there was also a meeting with Mariusz Kamiński in the corridor
00:10:02in the Prime Minister's Chancellery. If you were to tell us all, looking at these
00:10:06pieces of evidence, both classified and unclassified, because we do not have access to everything,
00:10:09then who actually came up with this idea?
00:10:13The decision was made at the junction
00:10:17of the Ministry of Justice, the coordinator of special services, the head
00:10:20of the CBA, for what purpose, because
00:10:23everyone assumed that it was simply necessary to have a system, because let's
00:10:27face it, times have moved on, and indeed I checked several
00:10:31countries, the European Parliament also conducted such an analysis
00:10:34regarding Pegasus and wiretapping in various countries, but have you
00:10:38checked whether in other countries those countries also did not
00:10:41have control over this system, or only in Poland
00:10:45was this control handed over to the Israeli company? Yes, today there are
00:10:49arguments that several European Union countries also used this
00:10:52tool, firstly, they did not break the law, firstly,
00:10:56they used it as they should have, because let's remember,
00:10:59the Israeli company itself disconnected the ability
00:11:03to use this system in 2022
00:11:07for the PiS governments, meaning PiS
00:11:10lost the ability to use this tool. So, following their
00:11:14line of thinking, they deprived the services of such
00:11:18capabilities. Is this not absurd? It is absurd, they simply
00:11:21broke the law when
00:11:24using this tool. Not only did they circumvent the law,
00:11:27misleading the courts,
00:11:30the courts that analyzed the applications that came
00:11:33to them, they did not know at all that such
00:11:37a system existed, that it had such capabilities, this was not
00:11:41just a system that eavesdropped on phone calls made
00:11:44through a mobile phone, this was a system that
00:11:47had access to our location, could turn on the camera and
00:11:51microphone at any time of day, whether
00:11:55we are in bed at night or in the toilet, excuse
00:11:59such an expression, but to illustrate it, this was not
00:12:03a tool that was understood by the courts as a tool for
00:12:06operational control. Well, I heard about this
00:12:09today at the commission very extensively, precisely that
00:12:13you are debunking this narrative that the courts
00:12:16agreed to everything. I remember when the case broke out, I asked many PiS
00:12:20politicians, and the standard explanation was, yes,
00:12:23but the courts had control over it. You
00:12:27claim that the courts were deceived, out of
00:12:304,000 cases in the district court, only 40
00:12:33applications were dismissed, but 4,000 cases is a
00:12:36colossal number, meaning the system
00:12:39was also used to track down criminals. Do you
00:12:43know of any spectacular cases that, thanks
00:12:46to Pegasus, were,
00:12:49I don't know, revealed in some way? These are questions that should go to
00:12:53the prosecutor's office. The prosecutor's office decided at the very beginning not to
00:12:57disclose or reveal the lists of people against whom the system was
00:13:00used, which is why I would not like to rely today on
00:13:04speculation, on what we know informally, or what we can
00:13:07infer based on what
00:13:10we heard. Today I rely on facts, and today
00:13:13the material that the commission managed to gather
00:13:17provides powerful grounds for not only the former heads
00:13:20of services to be charged, but also other
00:13:24people who... used this system directly in
00:13:27each individual case, but also politicians
00:13:31who are responsible for it. This is really
00:13:34a very substantial, powerful material that I am
00:13:38convinced will serve the prosecutor's office, and then the courts
00:13:41in court cases. We know that Mariusz Kamiński, of course, during the Law and
00:13:45Justice era, controlled the services, he ignored
00:13:48the investigative commission, he did not appear before you, although you
00:13:51call him, I quote one of the MPs, the architect of this
00:13:55Pegasus system, but was he questioned
00:13:58by the prosecutor's office at all, because I know that you could have taken such
00:14:02a path, that since the MP does not appear, he cannot be
00:14:06brought in because he has immunity, so perhaps the investigators will
00:14:09question him. Was Mariusz Kamiński questioned anywhere in
00:14:12the Pegasus case? We submitted a request
00:14:16for the prosecutor's office to question both Mariusz Kamiński
00:14:19and Michał Wąsik on our behalf,
00:14:23and currently. I can say that the materials from
00:14:26the interrogations of one of the gentlemen are in the classified
00:14:30materials of the commission, they are classified, but we know that
00:14:33Maciej Wąsik, because one of the MPs made it public today, and I am asking about
00:14:37Mariusz Kamiński, so he was not questioned, no, he was not
00:14:40questioned, because currently he does not have
00:14:44the status of a suspect. If he does have such a status, that will be
00:14:47decided by...
00:14:50the witness did not appear, he simply lacked
00:14:53courage.
00:14:55wrote today: fools are organizing a dismal cabaret, this is
00:14:59in reference to what you presented today, well,
00:15:03what should I say? Most of these gentlemen who
00:15:06spoke have been charged, for me, these are people
00:15:09who can tamper with evidence, because they are suspects, both
00:15:12Mr. Bejda, the former head of the service, and Michał
00:15:16Woś, and I think that every subsequent person who
00:15:20so loudly tried to discredit our work, we as
00:15:23a commission for the first time in history encountered a situation
00:15:27where, at the moment when the decision was made to
00:15:30appoint a commission, the entire Sejm voted, but a moment later they got
00:15:34so scared that everyone decided not to come to
00:15:38the commission meetings. However, the courts imposed fines of
00:15:41just under 5,000 cards on such people.
00:15:45Przemysław Wipler was also on this commission,
00:15:48vice-chairman, then he disappeared,
00:15:52because I understand that you were waiting, Madam MP, to see if he would be granted
00:15:55access to classified information, and what turned out in the end, he did not have it.
00:15:59The Internal Security Agency completed the procedure
00:16:02of checking MP Wipler.
00:16:06He did not pass the so-called 'whirlwind,' meaning he did not receive a
00:16:09security clearance with the possibility
00:16:12of accessing top secret materials.
00:16:16I don't know, this is the information I have in its entirety
00:16:20from the Internal Security Agency. What was the basis
00:16:23for this decision, I think that is a question for
00:16:27the agency, but
00:16:29I had
00:16:32the opportunity at some point to submit a request to
00:16:35the Head of the Chancellery of the Sejm for temporary granting
00:16:39of such a possibility to the MP,
00:16:42also the Vice-Chairman, because he was in the presidium. I did not
00:16:46submit it, because I believe that
00:16:49there are moments when you have to
00:16:53listen to your intuition, and today, at the moment when you had
00:16:56reasons, sorry, to suspect, because I understand that this was before the crypto affair,
00:17:00that Przemysław Wipler might be leaking information from
00:17:03the commission, the Internal Security Agency
00:17:06confirmed, he is not a guarantee
00:17:10of a person who should have access to classified
00:17:12information, he has access to information up to the secret level, this
00:17:16results from the act on the performance of a Member of Parliament's mandate, but
00:17:20he did not receive such
00:17:22a certificate, and I did
00:17:25well not to give him such temporary access, no, but that
00:17:29intuition of yours, you were a policewoman, it must have come from something, that's why I ask what,
00:17:33yes, sometimes it happens that such intuitions come, if
00:17:36there are people towards whom one does not have full trust, as
00:17:40confirmed by the Internal Security Agency, then one must proceed
00:17:43very cautiously. That is why MP Wipler never at any
00:17:47stage of the commission's work had access to top secret documents.
00:17:50Sławomir Mentzen recently ridiculed policewomen
00:17:53in service. Well, I ask you, you were there for many years, but he
00:17:56did not take the physical fitness test, he did not appear,
00:18:00he did not take up the challenge. Why do you think? Because he is
00:18:04such a person who is strong in words, but when it
00:18:08comes down to it, he simply chickens out. Of course, this is
00:18:11not about a physical fitness test at all, because the MP
00:18:14may not be
00:18:17a person who is fully fit, like officers. It is about
00:18:20the fact that MP Mentzen decided to mock women
00:18:24who decided to take responsibility for the safety of another
00:18:27human being. He only has the courage to insult
00:18:31people on social media, these women who
00:18:34joined the service have the courage to take responsibility for the
00:18:38health and lives of citizens, and I will not
00:18:40allow anyone to insult
00:18:43Polish women in this way, who every day
00:18:47truly perform their duties in a
00:18:49way that is truly with 100%
00:18:53commitment. That is why I submitted a request to the Sejm's
00:18:56Ethics Committee to punish
00:18:59MP Mentzen. We, by the way, in
00:19:01Confederation,
00:19:04we have a problem with Confederation MPs. the level
00:19:08of public debate, indeed, well, yes, but you can always
00:19:11change the rules of the game, since there is such
00:19:14a problem that some do not want to beat their
00:19:17chests, but women in uniform, Madam MP, because
00:19:21this is a narrative that Confederation MPs
00:19:24have been suggesting on social
00:19:27media for some time, that they have it easier than men, no,
00:19:30absolutely, it's not a question of easier or harder. I
00:19:34repeatedly faced such an opinion in the services.
00:19:37working, and it only took a moment for everyone
00:19:41who worked with me to know that it didn't matter
00:19:45whether I was a woman or not, it was about the task and about
00:19:48the fulfillment of the entrusted task. Women in the services
00:19:51perform very different tasks,
00:19:54they hold very different positions, they don't always have to be
00:19:57strongmen who go out on the street and intervene,
00:20:01there are also those who do, but there are also
00:20:04other tasks that cannot be performed only by
00:20:08women. We live in such times, discrimination based on
00:20:11gender, simply unacceptable, so
00:20:15really, let's not harass, let's not discourage women from
00:20:19joining the services or the police, or the army, because
00:20:22really, I recently spoke with the Minister of National
00:20:26Defense. Women who are today
00:20:30soldiers, Władysław Kosiniak-Kamysz says directly,
00:20:34they perform tasks that many men would not be able
00:20:37to handle, but again, there are tasks for men, and
00:20:41they perform their tasks in completely different
00:20:44areas, so really, let's not disqualify anyone based on
00:20:48gender, let's always take into account skills, training,
00:20:51experience, that matters.