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00:00:12Good evening, everyone. Justyna Dobroszoracz and welcome to today's question. With me and with you is
00:00:16the chairwoman of the Pegasus investigative committee, Magdalena Sroka,
00:00:19also a member of the Polish People's Party. Good evening, good evening,
00:00:23Mrs. Editor, good evening, everyone. Over 2 years of the committee's work and
00:00:26I must admit, I think no committee has had such a
00:00:30yours. Was the truth more shocking to you
00:00:34than the reports of
00:00:38independent media? I
00:00:40part at am in the comfortable situation of also knowing the classified
00:00:43material gathered by the committee, and there
00:00:46are indeed such cases described
00:00:49that would absolutely shock everyone
00:00:52who would familiarize themselves with this topic.
00:00:56Pegasus, the Pegasus committee is a committee that
00:01:00had the most problems, it touched upon the most sensitive
00:01:03topic, which is surveillance, that is, taking over the lives
00:01:07of Polish women and men. It was a system that intruded into our
00:01:10lives with force. What
00:01:13is in this classified part, we will discuss what you reported today
00:01:17for several hours, and the MPs reported
00:01:20your findings, but also this classified part. Since we brought up
00:01:24this topic, are there names there? Does the committee know the names of
00:01:28public figures who were under surveillance, about whom... for example, we still don't know? The committee
00:01:32analyzed several examples to show how the entire
00:01:35mechanism worked, but in the classified part there will be names
00:01:38that have not yet appeared, and parliamentarians
00:01:42will hear about it during the classified parliamentary session. Does it
00:01:45also concern journalists? Were journalists
00:01:47under surveillance? And here I must make
00:01:51a comma or a period, I cannot say what is in the
00:01:55classified part of the report, but the names that are there will
00:01:58probably surprise more than one politician who will hear it at
00:02:02this Sejm session. I neither deny nor
00:02:05confirm. Member of Parliament, Chairwoman, the report reveals
00:02:09that Pegasus could not be used against numbers registered, for example,
00:02:13in Russia, China, North Korea, Israel, or
00:02:16Belarus. So I will ask this question: so what? So this
00:02:20system could not catch any serious
00:02:22spy? Well, politicians from PiS today
00:02:25are trying very openly, even with great
00:02:28certainty, to talk about the spies they caught. However, no, they did not
00:02:32have the possibility to surveil numbers that
00:02:35came from Russia, Belarus, Korea, North, from other
00:02:39countries that simply did not work. When activating
00:02:42the Pegasus system, they were deactivated. So these are
00:02:45nonsense stories told by the gentlemen from Law and Justice. Today
00:02:49they are talking about it and trying to pull the wool over our eyes, but
00:02:52in fact, they did not have such possibilities. It was in a sense
00:02:56an alibi for Law and Justice, but I will ask directly, did the government
00:03:00of PiS secretly buy Pegasus, we know it was for
00:03:03spying, but certainly only critics of the government? Was it
00:03:06intended from the beginning, do you have such certainty after these
00:03:09difficult months of hearings, some witnesses had to be
00:03:13brought in, others never appeared before the committee, was
00:03:16this thesis, which appeared in many journalistic materials, still from
00:03:20the time of the PiS government, was it
00:03:21confirmed?
00:03:24Various people were under surveillance
00:03:27and today we say directly that
00:03:30they interfered with what opposition politicians
00:03:34were doing, politicians who spoke out loudly,
00:03:37opposed the government, not only politicians, but also prosecutors,
00:03:41judges, lawyers, these were
00:03:44people who were opposed to the previous government, but
00:03:48it was not only such people, we are talking about
00:03:51several hundred people against whom the Pegasus system was used, currently
00:03:55the National Prosecutor's Office, team three, is conducting
00:03:58an investigation due to...
00:04:01against whom
00:04:08the system was used, however, subsequent people, with
00:04:11subsequent weeks, months, learn that they
00:04:15were victims in the Pegasus case,
00:04:18but they do not make it
00:04:21public. They have the right to do so, and that must be
00:04:25respected. Let's wait for the investigation to conclude. Currently,
00:04:29seven people have been charged and an indictment has been filed
00:04:32against one person. The next
00:04:35people, we filed further notifications today regarding the possibility
00:04:39of committing a crime. During our work, we filed notifications
00:04:42against the heads of the CBA,
00:04:45ABW, SKW services. These gentlemen have already been
00:04:49charged, and now I expect that we, as a committee,
00:04:52doing our part, that is, politically presenting and examining
00:04:56the whole matter, today the prosecutor's office will take over, and then
00:05:00draw up indictments, and we, as a society, will be able to
00:05:03observe court proceedings
00:05:06and court decisions at the end, whether guilty or
00:05:09not, all those who, in our political
00:05:13opinion, broke the law. The case of the Prime Minister's
00:05:16daughter and Mr. Prime Minister
00:05:19Tusk's wife caused a public outcry a few
00:05:22months ago. Were they wiretapped? It is never
00:05:25the case that the people against whom the operational control system is used
00:05:29are the only people who are wiretapped. If such
00:05:32a system was installed on Roman
00:05:36Giertych's phone, and he talked to various people
00:05:39around him, then those people were also...
00:05:48I will say more about this matter in the classified
00:05:52the classified session of the Sejm. We know that they rummaged through those phones, this
00:05:56Pegasus, one could indeed say, was a spectacular
00:05:59tool in its operation, but
00:06:02did you perhaps find any information that politicians
00:06:06or people dangerous to the then government were also
00:06:10wiretapped in real time, was there someone in
00:06:13to this? These are
00:06:15already
00:06:19something that is essentially irrelevant, what matters, however, is the fact
00:06:22that the system was not fully
00:06:26, all its elements, within the protective zone of the Central Anti-Corruption
00:06:29Bureau. To my great
00:06:33surprise, these were not the premises
00:06:35that I remember from my time in service, these were premises
00:06:39where, for example...
00:06:52shows that not only was this system under
00:06:55the control of an Israeli company,
00:06:58the manufacturer, which had authorization codes,
00:07:00which had administrative
00:07:02codes for this entire system, but also one of the
00:07:06modules was permanently located in Israel. Today, PiS politicians
00:07:09are trying to say and tell
00:07:13that the data was transmitted with the highest standards of encryption, which is
00:07:16absolute nonsense, because what do we need encrypted data
00:07:19for if the administrator,
00:07:22the Israeli company,
00:07:25during system updates, during
00:07:28technical error fixes, has access
00:07:31to this tool, and operational controls are constantly ongoing, meaning
00:07:35they are wiretapping at the same time? This is all about us and now,
00:07:38MP, we will continue
00:07:50a scandal, but rather a state crime, what
00:07:53you have just described. But I wanted to ask you,
00:07:57how did you get to it, because it was a letter from the ABW, there was
00:08:00a problem to publicize it, to reveal it, because I heard such
00:08:04unofficial information that you had a hard time getting that expertise,
00:08:08to reveal to the public the fact that the
00:08:11state did not really know who had control over it in the end,
00:08:15well, could anyone have it? We first
00:08:18turned to the National Prosecutor's Office to
00:08:21appoint experts and examine this tool, which was still
00:08:25in the Central Anti-Corruption Bureau, to
00:08:29appoint a team of specialists who could
00:08:32answer such a question. It took a long time, in the meantime,
00:08:35we received such a partial analysis, which directly
00:08:39showed that one of the modules was located in Israel.
00:08:42This already showed that there was no full control over
00:08:46the system. Just before the end and
00:08:49the presentation of the report to you, we received a strictly confidential
00:08:52document, which is
00:08:55an analysis, which also
00:08:58refers to these inspections that were
00:09:01carried out in the Central Anti-Corruption Bureau, and there are
00:09:05details. Part of the materials was declassified by the decision of the Prosecutor General
00:09:09and handed over to the committee, which is why today I can speak
00:09:12directly, it is not true that
00:09:15a foreign company did not have access to this data,
00:09:18it did, whenever it wanted. It is
00:09:21appalling that there were people who, contrary
00:09:25to what the services themselves said at the beginning
00:09:28of this whole story back in
00:09:312017, that this is a dangerous tool, that we
00:09:34should not use it, that we can use other
00:09:38tools, that there were those who decided to
00:09:41allocate funds for the purchase of this system,
00:09:45funds that should have been used for victims of crimes, that
00:09:48there were such politicians who made
00:09:51a political decision, because it was first and foremost a political decision,
00:09:55to acquire such a system. Ziobro was brought before
00:09:59the committee, he himself admitted that he was the initiator, but
00:10:02today the committee revealed that there was also a meeting with
00:10:05Mariusz Kamiński in the corridor of the Prime Minister's office. If you
00:10:09had to tell us all, looking at these proofs and...
00:10:16who actually came up with this idea? The decision
00:10:20was made at the junction of the Ministry of Justice,
00:10:24the service coordinator.
00:10:37The European Parliament also conducted such an analysis regarding Pegasus and
00:10:41wiretapping in various countries. And did you check if in other
00:10:45countries these countries also did not have control over
00:10:48this system? Or only in Poland was this
00:10:51control handed over to an Israeli company?
00:10:55that several European Union countries also used this
00:10:58tool, first, they did not break the law, first,
00:11:01they used it as they should, because let's remember,
00:11:05the Israeli company itself disconnected the possibility
00:11:09of using this system in 2022
00:11:13for the PiS government, meaning that PiS
00:11:16lost the ability to use this tool, so following their
00:11:20line of thinking, they deprived the services of such
00:11:23capabilities. Isn't this absurd? It is absurd, they simply
00:11:27broke the law when
00:11:29using this tool, not only did they circumvent the law
00:11:33by misleading the courts,
00:11:35courts that analyzed the requests that came
00:11:39to them, first they didn't know at all that such
00:11:42a system existed, that it had such and no other capabilities, it was not
00:11:46just a system that tapped phone calls made
00:11:50through a mobile phone, it was a system that
00:11:53had access to our... it could turn on the camera and
00:11:57microphone at any moment of the day, whether
00:12:00we are in bed at night, or in the toilet, excuse
00:12:04my expression, but to illustrate it, it was not
00:12:08a tool that was understood by the courts as a tool for
00:12:12operational control. Well, I heard about this
00:12:15today at the committee very widely that
00:12:19you are disproving the narrative that the courts agreed to
00:12:22everything. I remember when the case broke out...
00:12:36cases in the district court, only 40 applications were
00:12:39dismissed, but 4000 cases, that is a colossal number,
00:12:43so the system was still used to
00:12:47track criminals, or are you saying there were some
00:12:50spectacular cases that, thanks to Pegasus,
00:12:53were... I don't know how they were revealed, these
00:12:57are questions that should go to the prosecutor's office. The prosecutor's office at the very
00:13:01beginning decided not to disclose the lists
00:13:04of people against whom the system was used, so I would not
00:13:08want to rely today on speculation, on what we know
00:13:11behind the scenes, or what we can infer from what we heard.
00:13:15Today I rely on facts, and today the material
00:13:18that the committee managed to gather
00:13:22provides powerful grounds for not only the former
00:13:26heads of services to be charged, but also other
00:13:29people who directly used this system in
00:13:33each individual case, but also politicians
00:13:37who are responsible for it. This is really
00:13:40very serious, powerful material, which I am
00:13:44convinced will serve the prosecutor's office, and then the courts
00:13:47in court cases. We know that Mariusz Kamiński, of course, during the Law and
00:13:51Justice era, controlled the services, he ignored
00:13:54the investigative committee. He did not appear, although you call him,
00:13:57I quote one of the MPs, the architect of this entire
00:14:01Pegasus system, but was he ever questioned
00:14:04by the prosecutor's office? Because I know that you could use such
00:14:08a route, that since an MP does not appear, he cannot be
00:14:11brought in because he has immunity, then perhaps the investigators will
00:14:15question him. Was Mariusz Kamiński questioned anywhere in
00:14:18the Pegasus case? We submitted a request
00:14:22for him to be questioned on our behalf...
00:14:36that materials from the interrogations of one of the gentlemen are in the classified materials of the committee, they are classified, but we know that Maciej
00:14:39Wąsik, because one of the MPs revealed this today, and I am asking about Mariusz
00:14:43Kamiński, he was not interrogated, no, he was not
00:14:46interrogated, because at this moment he does not have the status
00:14:50of a suspect. If he has such a status, the
00:14:53decision will be made then.
00:15:02"fools organize a grim cabaret," that's what you
00:15:06presented today. Well, what
00:15:09are they supposed to say? Most of the gentlemen who spoke have
00:15:13been charged. For me, these are people who can tamper with evidence, because they are
00:15:17suspects, both Mr. Bejda, former head of the
00:15:20service, and Michał Woś, and I think that every
00:15:23subsequent person who so loudly tried
00:15:27to discredit our work, we as a committee met for the first time in history
00:15:31with such a situation, that at the moment when
00:15:34the decision was made to appoint the committee,
00:15:38the entire Sejm voted, but a moment later they got so scared that everyone
00:15:41decided not to come to the committee meetings,
00:15:45while the courts imposed fines of almost 50,000
00:15:48PLN on such people. Przemysław Wipler was also on this
00:15:52committee, vice-chairman,
00:15:56then disappeared, because I understand that you,
00:15:59MP, were waiting to see if he would be granted
00:16:01access to public information, and what
00:16:05finally turned out was that he did not.
00:16:15he did not receive a so-called security clearance, the possibility of
00:16:18access to strictly classified
00:16:22materials. I do not know, this is the information
00:16:26I have received in its entirety from the Internal Security Agency,
00:16:29what was the basis for this decision. I think
00:16:33that is a question for the agency,
00:16:35however...
00:16:38"I had such a possibility at some point to submit an
00:16:41application to the head of the Sejm Chancellery for temporary
00:16:44access for such a possibility
00:16:46for the MP, also the vice-chairman, because he was
00:16:50on the presidium, I did not apply, because
00:16:53I believe that there are moments when
00:16:56you have to listen to your intuition, and
00:17:00today, when... Did you have any reasons for suspicion, I mean,
00:17:04I understand it was before the crypto affair, that Przemysław Hipler
00:17:07might be taking some information from the committee? The Internal Security
00:17:10Agency confirmed that he does not provide
00:17:13a guarantee for a person who should
00:17:17have access to classified information. He has access to
00:17:20information up to the "secret" level, this results from the act on the exercise
00:17:23of an MP's mandate, but he did not receive
00:17:26such a clearance
00:17:30and I did well that I didn't ask for such temporary
00:17:34access. But your intuition, you were a police officer, it comes from something.
00:17:38That's why I ask, from what? Sometimes it happens that such intuitions come,
00:17:41if there are people whom you don't fully
00:17:44trust, which the Internal Security Agency confirmed, then you must
00:17:48proceed very carefully, which is why MP Wiepler never
00:17:52had access to strictly confidential documents at any stage of the committee's
00:17:55work. Sławomir Mentzen recently mocked female police officers
00:17:59in service, well, I'm asking you, you were there for many years, but he did
00:18:02not take the fitness test, he did not stand up,
00:18:06he did not take up the challenge. Why? What do you think? Because
00:18:09he is such a person who is strong in words, and when
00:18:13it comes to it, he simply cowers. Of course, it's not
00:18:16absolutely about a physical fitness test, because the MP
00:18:20may not be a person who is fully
00:18:24fit, like officers. It's about the fact that
00:18:27MP Mentzen decided to mock women who
00:18:30decided to take responsibility for the safety of other
00:18:33people. He only has the courage to insult
00:18:36people in social media, these women who
00:18:39joined the service have the courage to take responsibility for the health
00:18:43and lives of citizens and I will
00:18:46not allow anyone to
00:18:49insult Polish women in such a way, who truly
00:18:53carry out their duties
00:18:55with 100%
00:18:59dedication. That is why I submitted a motion to the parliamentary
00:19:02ethics committee to punish MP Mentzen, and we, on the
00:19:06committee,
00:19:15well yes, but you can always change the rules of the
00:19:18game, if there is such a problem that
00:19:21some people don't want to admit it, but women in
00:19:25uniform, MP, because this is a narrative
00:19:28that Confederation MPs have been hinting at in social
00:19:31media for some time, do they have it easier than men? No,
00:19:34absolutely, it's a matter of easier, harder, I
00:19:38have often encountered such an opinion in the services, even
00:19:41while working, and it only took a moment
00:19:44for everyone who worked with me to
00:19:47know that it didn't matter whether I was
00:19:51a woman or not, it was about the task and about the completion of the assigned
00:19:55task. Women in the services perform very
00:19:58different tasks, they hold very different
00:20:01positions, they don't always have to be strong women who go out on
00:20:05the street and intervene, there are also those... who do that,
00:20:08however, there are also other tasks that cannot
00:20:12be performed only by women, we live in such times,
00:20:16discrimination based on gender
00:20:20is simply unacceptable, so please, let's not harass
00:20:23or discourage women from joining the services or the
00:20:26police or the army, because really, recently
00:20:29I spoke with the Minister of National
00:20:31Defense, women who are
00:20:35soldiers today. Władysław Kosiniak Kamysz says
00:20:39directly that they perform tasks that many men
00:20:42would not be able to handle, but again there are tasks for men and
00:20:46they perform their tasks in other ways.
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