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00:00:07MUSIC
00:00:16Hello, I'm Ben Brown and this
00:00:18is The Context on BBC News. Our headlines
00:00:20headlines baby wards in England are
00:00:23are to get cot cams after an inquiry inquiry into the nurse Lucy Letby
00:00:26Letby who murdered seven babies, babies, found that lives could have
00:00:30have been saved. The European Union Union chief hits out at what she
00:00:34she calls Russia's reckless and dangerous dangerous behaviour after a drone
00:00:37drone is shot down by Nato fighter
00:00:40fighter jets. China warns against
00:00:43against turning outer space into into a battlefield as the United
00:00:46United States confirms for the first first time that it has deployed space
00:00:50space weapons. The chief executive executive of the tech giant Nvidia
00:00:54Nvidia says there's no need for new
00:00:57new laws on AI, even though concerns
00:00:59concerns over artificial intelligence intelligence are growing. The market
00:01:03market forces are already there. there. We don't need any new laws.
00:01:05laws. We don't need new regulations.
00:01:10regulations. And Matthew Rhys makes
00:01:12makes history at the TV Emmy Awards Awards after winning two leading
00:01:15leading acting prizes in the same
00:01:19same night. Hello. Welcome to the
00:01:29the context the lives of some babies
00:01:32babies could have been saved if action action had been taken earlier by
00:01:36by staff at the Countess of Chester Chester Hospital in north-west England.
00:01:40England. That is the conclusion at at the end of a long running inquiry
00:01:43inquiry into how the nurse, Lucy
00:01:45Lucy Letby, was able to murder seven
00:01:47seven babies and attempt to murder murder seven others. Well, the chair
00:01:51chair of the inquiry, Lady Justice Justice Thirlwall, said there had
00:01:54had been a complete failure to protect protect babies on the hospital's
00:01:58hospital's neonatal unit between between 2015 and 2016. Judith Morris
00:02:02Morris reports. No babies were murdered.
00:02:06murdered. Three Lucy Letby. In the the Lucy Letby case, there are two
00:02:10two universes as that of her supporters supporters convinced of her innocence
00:02:14innocence and that of the courts courts and the Thirlwall Inquiry
00:02:17Inquiry where her guilt is settled. settled. It was established to examine
00:02:21examine what those around Letby did
00:02:23did as babies kept dying and she she fell under suspicion. And it's
00:02:27it's found that if the hospital had
00:02:28had acted as it should have done,
00:02:31done, babies could have been saved. saved. There was a complete failure
00:02:35failure at all levels to invoke safeguarding
00:02:38safeguarding procedures at any point point looking for clinical or other
00:02:42other explanations for deaths and
00:02:44and collapses was not wrong. But But once there was suspicion that
00:02:47that Letby may be causing harm, deliberately
00:02:51deliberately safeguarding steps should should have been taken. No one seems
00:02:54seems to have thought that safeguarding safeguarding action is required when
00:02:58when a member of staff is suspected
00:02:59suspected of causing deliberate harm.
00:03:02harm. It isn't necessary to be sure
00:03:06sure suspicion is enough. The offences offences of murder and attempted attempted murder have been identified
00:03:10identified and you have been identified identified as a suspect of these
00:03:14these offences. Letby has been convicted convicted of murdering seven babies
00:03:16babies and attempting to murder a
00:03:19a further 7 in 2015 and 2016. And And you're going to have to go to
00:03:22to the police station to be questioned questioned about these allegations. allegations. Today's report doesn't
00:03:25doesn't specify how many of those those attacks could have been prevented,
00:03:28prevented, but lays out a timeline
00:03:30timeline of missed opportunities. opportunities. In June 2015, three
00:03:34three babies died in quick succession, succession, but it wasn't viewed
00:03:37viewed as an unusual cluster of deaths. deaths. That August, a fourth baby
00:03:41baby died and consultants disregarded disregarded a baby's blood test,
00:03:44test, which suggested insulin poisoning.
00:03:46poisoning. After the fifth baby death
00:03:49death in October 2015, Letby was was kept on the ward. A doctor failed
00:03:53failed to report his suspicions about
00:03:55about her in relation to one baby.
00:03:57baby. In February 2016, and even even after consultants met managers
00:04:00managers in May that year, safeguarding safeguarding rules weren't followed.
00:04:04followed. Two more babies would go
00:04:05go on to die. The report's scathing
00:04:08scathing about the hospital's former former executives. It finds that
00:04:11that director of nursing Alison Kelly Kelly in the middle here pitted nurses
00:04:14nurses against doctors with misguided misguided determination to protect
00:04:17protect Letby. The former medical medical director Ian Harvey, is said
00:04:21said to have tried to control the the narrative, writing documents
00:04:24documents himself to support the the nurse and the then CEO, Tony
00:04:28Tony Chambers is described as dictatorial, dictatorial, running an exercise
00:04:31exercise in spin and stalling the the police investigation for nearly
00:04:34nearly a year. This is behaviour
00:04:37behaviour by NHS managers that should should never have been allowed to
00:04:41to happen, and a complete disregard disregard for all of the systems
00:04:44systems that would have protected
00:04:46protected these children. Safeguarding
00:04:48Safeguarding HR. Whistleblowing, Whistleblowing, freedom to speak
00:04:52speak out, escalation of concerns
00:04:54concerns all of it completely treated
00:04:57treated like it didn't matter. It's It's pretty grim reading. Sadly.
00:05:00Sadly. Doctor John Gibbs is one of of the senior doctors who battled
00:05:04battled to raise concerns about Lucy Lucy Letby with hospital managers.
00:05:07managers. But he says he also accepts accepts that the consultants bear
00:05:10bear collective responsibility for for some failings. Do you look back
00:05:14back and think, I wish I'd done more?
00:05:16more? We'd done more. Yes. I wish
00:05:20wish we consultants had been brave
00:05:22brave enough to follow our suspicions suspicions and escalate things to
00:05:25to the police earlier. And when I
00:05:27I say we consultants, I am responsible
00:05:30responsible as well. And if my other other consultant colleagues didn't
00:05:34didn't go to the police, I should
00:05:35should have gone to the police. What
00:05:39What we did, particularly when we we were having a lot of resistance resistance dealing with the managers,
00:05:42managers, what we did, which helped helped us enormously is that we all
00:05:46all stuck together. The Countess Countess of Chester Hospital is now
00:05:50now under new management, responding responding to the Thirlwall report,
00:05:52report, its current CEO said we'll we'll approach its recommendations recommendations with openness and
00:05:56and a firm commitment to build on on the progress we've already made
00:05:59made in improving our hospital's hospital's governance, safety and
00:06:02and culture since that time. We acknowledge, acknowledge, however, that there's there's more to be done. Our priority
00:06:06priority is to ensure that we address address the Thirlwall report's recommendations
00:06:09recommendations as swiftly as possible.
00:06:11possible. The report makes 17 recommendations
00:06:14recommendations for the NHS in England, England, including tighter controls
00:06:17controls on access to insulin, compulsory compulsory rules on safeguarding
00:06:20safeguarding and the introduction introduction of cameras monitoring monitoring all cots and incubators
00:06:24incubators on neonatal units which which wasn't available at the Countess
00:06:27Countess of Chester Hospital. I have have asked my officials to urgently
00:06:30urgently develop plans for Cot cams,
00:06:32cams, which can also help parents parents feel better connected to
00:06:36to their babies when they aren't aren't able to be with them in person.
00:06:39person. As well as aiming her fire fire at the hospital and recommending
00:06:42recommending change, Lady Justice Justice Thirlwall had words about
00:06:45about how the babies families were were dealt with. The anger some parents
00:06:48parents feel at the way they were were treated by the Countess was
00:06:52was palpable. They were kept in the the dark for years about what was
00:06:56was happening, about the fact that that there were concerns that their
00:06:58their babies may have been deliberately deliberately harmed. The lack of
00:07:02of consideration shown to the parents
00:07:04parents at that time was reprehensible.
00:07:07reprehensible. The baby's parents parents have welcomed Thurwell's Thurwell's findings, but they say
00:07:10say the real test of this inquiry inquiry and its report will be whether
00:07:14whether it paves the way for real
00:07:17real change across the NHS. Well, Well, we're going to talk more about
00:07:21about this now with Marian Knight, Knight, who's a public health physician
00:07:24physician as well as the national national chair of embrace UK, which which is an academic collaboration
00:07:28collaboration that tracks and investigates investigates the deaths of mothers
00:07:32mothers and babies across the UK. UK. And she actually testifies as
00:07:36as a key witness at that inquiry. inquiry. So thank you very much for
00:07:39for being with us. Well, I suppose suppose at the end of all of this
00:07:42this and at the end of the inquiry, inquiry, what are the lessons that
00:07:46that we have to learn and do you
00:07:48you think they will be learned? So
00:07:51So Lady Justice Thirlwall was absolutely absolutely clear that there were
00:07:54were many missed opportunities. And
00:07:57And we've got systems in place that
00:07:59that make sure that we should not
00:08:02not encounter such missed opportunities opportunities in the future. We've
00:08:05We've got we now have in place real
00:08:08real time systems which allow us
00:08:10us to monitor data to look at unusual
00:08:14unusual patterns of baby deaths and
00:08:17and to escalate concerns about those
00:08:19those to ensure that they're investigated
00:08:21investigated early. Lady Justice Justice Thirlwall was really clear
00:08:25clear that that needs to be a board
00:08:28board level responsibility. So we we need to be sure that we're not
00:08:32not just seeing patterns and taking
00:08:33taking note of them, but we're acting
00:08:36acting and making change. And I think think for me that that's really important
00:08:39important that we're thinking about about that across all units in the
00:08:43the UK. We've had several maternity
00:08:47maternity investigations recently recently and they've all identified
00:08:50identified that whether we're thinking thinking about inadvertent harm or
00:08:53or deliberate harm, we should be
00:08:57be responding to baby deaths and and making change. And I think you've
00:09:00you've talked about, you know, the
00:09:01the need for a sort of learning culture
00:09:05culture rather than a defensive culture. culture. And has that been the problem
00:09:08problem too often that we have seen
00:09:10seen senior staff, people who run
00:09:12run hospital trusts, simply being
00:09:15being too defensive. It was very
00:09:18very clear in, in Lady Justice Thirlwall Thirlwall report that there was a
00:09:22a defensive culture at a managerial
00:09:25managerial level and that prevented
00:09:27prevented us from preventing the
00:09:29the actions from being put in place.
00:09:33place. And we do often have a reflex
00:09:36reflex defensive culture when actually actually we need to make a complete
00:09:39complete change. For me, this was
00:09:42was learning that also came out of of Baroness Amos report that the
00:09:46the maternity and neonatal investigation investigation where she was emphasising
00:09:50emphasising the need for leadership leadership and that culture is very
00:09:53very definitely driven by the leadership.
00:09:54leadership. So we need those leaders
00:09:58leaders who have that learning culture culture and are trained to respond
00:10:02respond in the right way, as opposed
00:10:05opposed to the defensive way. We We have, as you yourself mentioned
00:10:08mentioned there, we've seen many
00:10:11many scandals really involving maternity
00:10:12maternity care, neonatal care in,
00:10:15in, in England. What has gone wrong?
00:10:17wrong? Do you think. So many organisations,
00:10:24organisations, including the collaboration collaboration that I lead, have been
00:10:27been criticised for producing recommendations recommendations which are not implemented.
00:10:31implemented. Some of us have the
00:10:33the power to make sure those recommendations recommendations are implemented and
00:10:36and that for me is the step that
00:10:39that we have to take. We have to
00:10:41to make sure that the government,
00:10:45government, NHS England, NHS organisations
00:10:48organisations are implementing the the recommendations because we don't
00:10:51don't need we don't want a continuous
00:10:54continuous cycle of more and more more investigations which say the
00:10:56the same thing. Can I just ask you
00:10:59you about a couple of the specific
00:11:02specific recommendations that came
00:11:03came out of this inquiry? Reforms
00:11:06Reforms to neonatal units, including
00:11:08including CCTV for all Cots and incubators,
00:11:12incubators, restriction to access access to insulin, for example. On
00:11:16On those specifics, what would you
00:11:17you say about those? So Lady Justice
00:11:22Justice Thirlwall is is picked up
00:11:24up on that area as a and as your
00:11:26your reporter clearly, clearly emphasised,
00:11:30emphasised, there are many potential potential benefits of Cot cams, not
00:11:33not least of which parents remain
00:11:36remain in contact with their baby baby even when they can't be there
00:11:40there in person. For me, the main
00:11:42main learning is is about responding
00:11:45responding to concerning patterns
00:11:47patterns in the data and making sure
00:11:49sure that there's accountability accountability at a senior managerial
00:11:52managerial level to make sure that that we respond to that. And we've
00:11:55we've talked or you've talked there there about what lessons should be
00:11:58be learned. Do you think all these
00:12:00these lessons will be learned? So
00:12:03So I was really pleased that Lady
00:12:05Lady Justice Thirlwall had put timelines
00:12:07timelines on when those actions need
00:12:10need to be undertaken and very short short timelines. So we know that
00:12:14that all hospitals have access to
00:12:16to the data monitoring, that they they can be using. But we know there's
00:12:20there's huge variability. So some
00:12:23some hospitals will look at those
00:12:26those data every day, others less less than once a month. So and that's
00:12:30that's a change we can make quickly. quickly. We can make it now. And
00:12:34And that's why I'm really pleased
00:12:35pleased that there's a very short
00:12:38short timeline on the actions needed. needed. Marian Knight very good to
00:12:41to talk to you. Thank you so much much for being with us. Marian Knight
00:12:43Knight they're a public health physician physician who as I mentioned at the
00:12:47the beginning testified as a key key witness at the inquiry. Thank
00:12:50Thank you. Thank you. Now we're going
00:12:54going to take a short break. We will will be back in just a moment. So So don't go away.
00:13:58Edinburgh expeditions in the Yorkshire Yorkshire Dales to the Scottish Highlands Highlands meeting people proven adventure
00:14:01adventure is far from offline. The
00:14:02The Travel Show on BBC iPlayer. Now.
00:14:11Now. European Union chief Ursula Ursula von der Leyen has condemned
00:14:15condemned what she calls Russia's
00:14:17Russia's reckless and dangerous behaviour, behaviour, after Denmark said that
00:14:20that a Russian frigate fired flares
00:14:22flares at a Danish helicopter and
00:14:25and Nato had to shoot down a drone
00:14:28drone over Lithuania. In a post on
00:14:30on X, she said these are not isolated isolated incidents. They're part
00:14:34part of a broader pattern of Russian
00:14:37Russian aggression and provocation provocation against Europe. Testing
00:14:39Testing our readiness and our resolve,
00:14:41resolve, Russia will find our resolve resolve only growing stronger. And
00:14:44And she went on we are reinforcing
00:14:48reinforcing our collective deterrence deterrence and defence together with
00:14:51with Nato, and we are stepping up up the pressure on Russia. Well,
00:14:55Well, this was the moment that that that drone was brought down by Italian
00:14:59Italian Nato fighter jets near the
00:15:02the Lithuanian city of Kaunas. The The interception was actually caught
00:15:05caught by a residents security camera.
00:15:07camera. Let's talk now to Tan Dhesi,
00:15:10Dhesi, who's MP for Slough and chair
00:15:12chair of the House of Commons Defence Defence Select Committee. Thank you
00:15:15you very much for being with us. us. How worried are you that we keep
00:15:19keep seeing more and more of these
00:15:21these incidents, these kind of cross-border cross-border provocations, if you
00:15:24you like. There was the attack on on a train near the Polish border
00:15:28border just the other day as well.
00:15:31well. Well, Ben, as Kaja Kallas herself herself has said on behalf of the
00:15:35the EU that this is part of a predictable,
00:15:39predictable, sustained pattern from
00:15:40from Russia. We've had not only the
00:15:45the Lithuanian airspace incursion incursion and the drone being shot
00:15:48shot down by a Nato jet. We've likewise
00:15:52likewise had the attack on the train
00:15:54train in Ukraine. And thank God that
00:15:58that some of the other diplomats diplomats in the including former
00:16:01former UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson Johnson and others that their train
00:16:04train had actually gone into Poland
00:16:06Poland before that. We've had also
00:16:08also the attack in Germany, the drone
00:16:12drone attack which Germany itself itself has publicly exposed Russian
00:16:16Russian involvement in that. And
00:16:17And the two individuals one was Belarusian
00:16:21Belarusian and the other was linked
00:16:23linked to Russian intelligence agencies.
00:16:26agencies. Likewise, before we've we've had incursions into Romanian
00:16:30Romanian airspace, Polish airspace
00:16:32airspace and much more besides. So
00:16:35So we need to be absolutely of the
00:16:39the opinion that we need to help, help, not just our Ukrainian friends,
00:16:43friends, but also to bolster our
00:16:45our own Nato defences. Do you think
00:16:48think this is Putin in a sense, lashing
00:16:51lashing out against Ukraine's European European allies, especially those
00:16:54those nearest to Ukraine, saying, saying, you know, don't interfere, interfere, don't interfere in support
00:16:58support of Ukraine against Russia? Russia? Well, it's part of Putin's
00:17:02Putin's desperate tactics to try
00:17:04try to deter and to divide Nato allies.
00:17:07allies. All the Western allies. And And it was also good that our UK
00:17:11UK Prime Minister came out strongly
00:17:13strongly to say that this would not
00:17:15not undermine our support for Ukraine.
00:17:18Ukraine. And we know that this is
00:17:20is meant to undermine our support
00:17:22support and unity. And likewise, likewise, I note that Nato Secretary
00:17:26Secretary General Mark Rutte made made a similar statement as well.
00:17:29well. So we know what the tactics
00:17:32tactics from Vladimir Putin are. are. But we need to be steadfast
00:17:35steadfast in our support for Ukraine. Ukraine. And in fact, that's what what the House of Commons defence
00:17:39defence Committee, in an earlier earlier statement, also asked our
00:17:42our government that we must show show leadership in supporting our
00:17:45our Ukrainian friends because they they are not only fighting for their
00:17:49their homeland, but they are helping
00:17:52helping to preserve this. Our security
00:17:56security of our continent. So it's it's important that we come to their
00:17:59their aid. But at the same time, time, we need to accelerate the investment
00:18:03investment into our own defences
00:18:05defences to replenish those stockpiles stockpiles and munitions. But some
00:18:08some people watching this, I mean, mean, just briefly might be worried
00:18:12worried and say, this is actually actually getting really dangerous.
00:18:14dangerous. All these sort of incidents, incidents, cross-border incidents
00:18:18incidents and so on. You know, it
00:18:20it could ignite into a wider war.
00:18:23war. Well, look, that's why the likes likes of myself and others on the
00:18:26the defence committee as well as as other parliamentarians who are
00:18:30are passionate about defence and and national security, who care that
00:18:33that our country is kept safe. We've We've been saying for quite some
00:18:36some time now that we've got a rising
00:18:39rising threat level and we need to to step up to the plate because,
00:18:42because, as I said on the floor of of the House, not just to the Prime
00:18:45Prime Minister, but we've been saying
00:18:47saying this repeatedly since the
00:18:50the last couple of years that we've
00:18:52we've got a very aggressive imperialist
00:18:57imperialist neighbour to the east
00:18:58east of Europe, namely Russia and
00:19:02and they have got expansionist ambitions. ambitions. But we've also to the
00:19:06the west we've got a new US administration
00:19:10administration with Donald Trump
00:19:12Trump who for whom European security
00:19:14security is no longer a focus or
00:19:17or a priority. So we as European European nations need to step up
00:19:20up to the plate. We need to invest
00:19:22invest in our defence and we need
00:19:25need to make sure that we deter any
00:19:28any aggressive actions. And in fact, fact, the defence committee recently
00:19:31recently visited Denmark. We also also went to Greenland as well to
00:19:35to look at security within the high high north as part of our inquiry
00:19:39inquiry defence in the High north. north. And we saw, for example, our
00:19:42our Danish neighbours who have significantly
00:19:45significantly ramped up their defence
00:19:47defence spending from a mere. It
00:19:50It was under 1.5% just four years
00:19:52years ago when the full-scale illegal
00:19:55illegal invasion of Ukraine was initiated
00:19:58initiated by Putin and now they are
00:20:03are coming up to 4.99% in terms of
00:20:06of defence and defence related expenditure expenditure and likewise other European
00:20:10European nations are doing that.
00:20:11that. We as the UK do not want to
00:20:14to be left behind. We want to make make sure that we have that leadership,
00:20:18leadership, not just for our security
00:20:20security but our continent security. Tan Dhesi thank you very
00:20:23very much indeed. Chair of the House House of Commons Defence Select Committee.
00:20:26Committee. Thanks for being with
00:20:27with us. Thank you. Well, still on
00:20:32on matters of defence for the first
00:20:34first time, the United States military military has confirmed that it has
00:20:38has deployed weapons in space orbiting
00:20:40orbiting the earth. The Chinese Foreign Foreign Ministry has reacted by warning
00:20:44warning against what it calls an
00:20:45an arms race in space. As Jonathan
00:20:48Jonathan Beale now reports. No notice notice launch Iran. The US Space
00:20:52Space Force is already helping America
00:20:53America fight its wars on the ground ground here, detecting the launch
00:20:57launch of ballistic missiles. This
00:20:59This is the wolf Den. But it's also
00:21:02also preparing for a potential conflict conflict in space. We are already
00:21:06already sparring in the cyber domain domain in the space domain. Home
00:21:09Home to thousands of active satellites.
00:21:13satellites. Now, for the first time, time, the US has confirmed it's deployed
00:21:16deployed a weapon in space. The US
00:21:19US Air Force secretary said it wanted wanted to maintain its dominance.
00:21:22dominance. So we've had to take steps
00:21:24steps to make sure that when we're
00:21:26we're threatened, we can take care
00:21:29care of that. That's prompted both
00:21:31both Russia and China to condemn
00:21:33condemn the move and warn of an arms
00:21:35arms race in space. America's already
00:21:39already accused them of doing the
00:21:40the same. The reality is there's
00:21:43there's already the start of an arms
00:21:45arms race in space. The US has accused
00:21:47accused both China and Russia of
00:21:50of developing satellites that can can jam the signals of other satellites
00:21:53satellites or listen in, or deploying
00:21:56deploying lasers to blind them. Even
00:21:59Even fitting grappling arms to try try to manoeuver other satellites
00:22:03satellites out of orbit. The US has
00:22:04has also accused both China and Russia
00:22:07Russia are developing weapons that
00:22:09that can be fired into space or from
00:22:11from space to destroy satellites.
00:22:14satellites. Three. Two. We have ignition.
00:22:16ignition. But for now, the US isn't isn't saying what weapon it's launched
00:22:20launched into orbit. What the US
00:22:23US is talking about are probably
00:22:25probably things like electronic warfare
00:22:27warfare or jamming abilities or spoofing spoofing abilities, possibly things
00:22:31things like what we call co-orbital co-orbital weapons, which you have
00:22:34have another satellite that's orbiting orbiting alongside another satellite
00:22:37satellite and could bang into it. It's not just the military that
00:22:41that increasingly relies on space.
00:22:43space. We all do on satellites for
00:22:46for everyday life, from social media media to phone calls and finding
00:22:49finding our way about. It's not yet
00:22:53yet Star Wars, but an arms race in
00:22:56in space should concern us all. Jonathan
00:22:59Jonathan Beale, BBC News. Let's discuss
00:23:00discuss this now with Michael O'Hanlon,
00:23:03O'Hanlon, who's chair in defence defence and strategy and director
00:23:07director of research in the Foreign Foreign policy programme at Brookings Brookings Institution. Thank you
00:23:10you very much for being with us. us. What do you think? You know,
00:23:14know, the American military confirming confirming they have weapons in space.
00:23:16space. What do you think they are? are? It's an excellent question.
00:23:20question. My best guess would be
00:23:23be electronic jamming because that's
00:23:26that's something that's fairly easy
00:23:27easy to do. You know, we've got a a lot of experience with it. We can
00:23:31can probably direct those beams pretty
00:23:33pretty well. Another guess would
00:23:36would be the ability to just manoeuver manoeuver and get close to something
00:23:39something and then blow up. So an
00:23:41an explosive with enough fuel for
00:23:43for the satellite that it can position position itself in the event of a
00:23:47a conflict. Now that sounds maybe maybe less likely because we don't
00:23:51don't really like the idea of creating creating debris in space. But if
00:23:54if you're postulating that you're you're already in a great power war
00:23:57war and China is using spy satellites satellites to identify and target
00:24:00target your aircraft carriers, maybe maybe at that point you run the risk
00:24:04risk of creating some space debris.
00:24:06debris. So that's the second possibility. possibility. I'm a little less inclined
00:24:09inclined to think it's a laser because,
00:24:13because, you know, that would probably probably require a fair amount of
00:24:16of testing. And I don't know how how much serious testing we've done
00:24:19done of lasers in space. Someday. Someday. Your colleague mentioned
00:24:23mentioned Star Wars and maybe at at some point we start thinking about
00:24:25about putting lasers in space to to shoot down ballistic missiles,
00:24:28missiles, and then we test them. them. At that point, a laser could
00:24:32could be, you know, considered viable viable to destroy a satellite as as well. But at this point, I don't
00:24:36don't know that we have enough data data or experience with that. So
00:24:39So those are my best guesses as to to where we could be. And why. This
00:24:43This is another question. Why would would the American military announce
00:24:46announce this at this stage? I mean, mean, surely you would think all
00:24:49all of this is very classified. Yeah.
00:24:52Yeah. I was a little struck by that.
00:24:55that. You know, I've been on policy policy boards where we had clearances clearances and people still wouldn't
00:24:59wouldn't tell us what we had in space, space, even though we were cleared
00:25:02cleared to know because indeed it it was considered to be so sensitive sensitive that you're only going
00:25:06going to tell somebody if they really really need to know, quote unquote.
00:25:09unquote. That's an expression, as as you're aware, often used in these
00:25:12these kind of circles. But you know, know, on the other hand, the secretary
00:25:15secretary didn't say that much and and he said something that's increasingly
00:25:19increasingly hinted at in polite polite conversation in unclassified
00:25:23unclassified conversation, because, because, you know, we have a Space
00:25:25Space Force now and they're called called space Guardians. But some
00:25:28some people wanted to call them space
00:25:30space warriors. And so there's no no doubt that as part of defending
00:25:34defending our own assets in space space and also defending our assets
00:25:37assets on the ground that might be be targeted by adversary assets in
00:25:41in space. We have been getting we've
00:25:43we've been thinking in this direction direction more and more in recent
00:25:46recent years. So in that sense, it's it's no huge surprise. OK. And I
00:25:50I guess also no huge surprise has has been the reaction from China
00:25:53China and Russia both absolutely absolutely condemning this as if
00:25:57if they have no interest at all in
00:25:59in having weapons in space. Yeah.
00:26:02Yeah. Well, we are pretty confident confident that Russia had plans and
00:26:05and may even have actualised them them to put nuclear weapons in space.
00:26:09space. That would be an actual violation violation of a treaty. The Outer
00:26:12Outer Space treaty, putting conventional conventional weapons like jammers
00:26:15jammers or even explosives in space space would not be a violation of
00:26:18of any treaty. It might seem unseemly
00:26:20unseemly to some people or sort of
00:26:23of weaponising the last frontier, frontier, but it's not prohibited prohibited by international law.
00:26:26law. So the Russians, of course, course, have nothing to fall back back on here. I doubt very much the
00:26:30the Chinese have put a nuclear weapon weapon in space, but I think they
00:26:33they are investigating the same kinds kinds of technologies that we are
00:26:36are for pretty much the same reasons. reasons. Michael, really good to
00:26:39to have you with us. Thank you so so much. Michael O'Hanlon there.
00:26:41there. We'll take a short break in in a minute. Just a quick bit of
00:26:44of breaking news to bring you, which
00:26:46which is that several support acts
00:26:49acts for Ed Sheeran's US tour have
00:26:51have pulled out. This is in solidarity
00:26:53solidarity with the rapper Macklemore Macklemore after he was barred from
00:26:57from the forthcoming performances performances for making pro-Palestinian
00:27:01pro-Palestinian statements on stage. stage. Billie Eilish's brother Finneas, Finneas, Irish songwriter Aaron
00:28:35still in the mid to high 40s by.
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