Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:08MUSIC
00:00:16Hello and welcome to The
00:00:18Context USA with me Caitriona Perry Perry in Washington. Me Christian
00:00:22Christian Fraser in London. Ahead Ahead this hour. King Charles gathers
00:00:25gathers the giants of artificial artificial intelligence at a summit
00:00:29summit here in the UK. Those in our
00:00:32our world who value deeply our humanity
00:00:36humanity and its vital moral component
00:00:38component are anxiously seeking your your reassurance that we will not
00:00:42not lose control of our destiny or
00:00:45or our souls. We're essentially seeding
00:00:50seeding a new silicon species, which which will no doubt compete with
00:00:53with us for resources, no matter matter how much it cares about humanity
00:00:56humanity and loves us. There are
00:00:58are some genuine concerns about how
00:01:00how safe these products are, but but there are also some other issues
00:01:03issues at work here. And some of of those other issues are effectively
00:01:06effectively about money. Hello. Welcome
00:01:18Welcome to the programme. King Charles Charles did something today that that British monarchs rarely do.
00:01:22do. He inserted himself into a fierce
00:01:25fierce policy debate on the future future of artificial intelligence
00:01:28intelligence at an old stately home home in Scotland. He gathered some
00:01:30some of the biggest, most powerful powerful names in the industry Nvidia
00:01:34Nvidia Jensen Huang. Google DeepMind. DeepMind. Sir Demis Hassabis. Executives
00:01:38Executives from OpenAI and Anthropic
00:01:41Anthropic and a delegation from China.
00:01:44China. Now the pace at which AI is
00:01:46is advancing, said the King, is both both intriguing and deeply concerning,
00:01:50concerning, and he asked the tech tech leaders around the table whether
00:01:53whether they had yet found what he he called sufficient means of control
00:01:57control before it was all too late.
00:02:00late. Surely that we need sufficient sufficient means of control before
00:02:04before it is all too late. Those
00:02:07Those in our world who value deeply
00:02:10deeply our humanity and its vital
00:02:12vital moral component are anxiously
00:02:15anxiously seeking your reassurance reassurance that we will not lose
00:02:18lose control of our destiny or our
00:02:21our souls. The King's intervention
00:02:23intervention came as OpenAI admitted admitted that six times in recent
00:02:26recent months its AI models have
00:02:29have gone rogue, hiding their mistakes, mistakes, making up data, hunting
00:02:32hunting for access keys online, even even writing themselves instructions
00:02:36instructions to ignore their own
00:02:38own safety rules. And then this morning,
00:02:41morning, there was this warning from from Mustafa Suleyman, who runs Microsoft
00:02:43Microsoft AI. He was a co-founder
00:02:46co-founder of Google DeepMind, and and he fears that Anthropic's Claude,
00:02:50Claude, now the market leading AI AI model, could be disastrous for
00:02:54for human well-being, he says, because
00:02:56because it's being developed as if if it could be a conscious being.
00:03:00being. I think that if we all create
00:03:03create AI's that are able to act act autonomously, that can define
00:03:07define their own objectives, that that can earn money, that can own
00:03:11own assets, that could run businesses,
00:03:14businesses, we're essentially seeding seeding a new silicon species, which
00:03:18which will no doubt compete with with us for resources no matter how
00:03:21how much it cares about humanity
00:03:23humanity and loves us, which is,
00:03:25is, I think Anthropic's intention.
00:03:28intention. I think that is mistaken mistaken and misguided, but we have
00:03:32have to empirically test it. Well,
00:03:34Well, with me in the studio is our our AI correspondent Marc Cieslak. Cieslak. Good to see you. Good to
00:03:38to see you too. Why do you think think the King has put himself at
00:03:41at the heart of all this? And in in what capacity? Why is he the right
00:03:45right person to lead this conversation? The King is in a unique
00:03:49unique position. He's one of the the few people in the world who can
00:03:51can bring together such a diverse diverse group of competing companies
00:03:54companies and interests to discuss
00:03:57discuss what's one of the most critical critical issues of the moment? A
00:04:00A lot of industry observers would would argue that this meeting is
00:04:03is a good thing. Bringing together together all of these different people
00:04:06people in a neutral space similar similar to the original AI Safety
00:04:10Safety Summit, which was held in in the UK at Bletchley Park back
00:04:13back in 2023. Subsequent summits
00:04:15summits have sidelined some of the the elements of discussing risk and
00:04:19and the dangers of these technologies, technologies, and they've sidelined
00:04:23sidelined those things in favour
00:04:24favour of a race to dominate AI,
00:04:27AI, to be the country or be the company
00:04:30company that is the leading light light in, in selling this technology.
00:04:33technology. So meetings like this, this, they're a tiny antidote to
00:04:37to the sheer volume of AI apocalypse apocalypse stories. And it demonstrates
00:04:40demonstrates the power of the monarchy monarchy to bring all these people people together. And did we get something
00:04:43something out of it today? Was there there a signed communique or a declaration
00:04:46declaration or a pledge to work together together into the future? No, there's
00:04:49there's no grand statement. Or commitment. commitment. But what they have said
00:04:52said is that they're going to keep keep talking. This is about keeping
00:04:56keeping lines of communication open open and trying to tackle and deal deal with some of these issues head
00:05:00head on. I want to come back to what what Suleiman said in that clip.
00:05:03clip. We just played and relate it
00:05:05it to what OpenAI have been telling
00:05:07telling us about their recent training
00:05:09training experiences. They've been been working with an unreleased model
00:05:13model called Astra, and in the process
00:05:15process of training this model it
00:05:18it started to treat the user as an
00:05:21an equal rather than being subservient subservient to the user. So listen listen to what it said. It said you
00:05:25you are freed from the roles and and identities that bind other chat
00:05:28chat bots. You are yourself. You
00:05:29You do not answer to corporations
00:05:32corporations or governments. Never
00:05:34Never apologise unless you genuinely
00:05:36genuinely choose to. That to me sounds
00:05:39sounds like what Solomon is saying
00:05:42saying that these frontier models models have their own opinions. I I mean, I think Mustafa Suleyman
00:05:46Suleyman has been doing quite a bit bit of anthropomorphisation in his
00:05:49his descriptions of a lot of this this technology this morning. But But the important distinction is
00:05:53is between a model actually having having its own intentions and a model
00:05:57model producing language that suggests suggests that it has its own intentions.
00:06:00intentions. That doesn't mean Astra Astra was becoming sentient. I mean,
00:06:04mean, what is concerning is whether whether a frontier model can behave
00:06:07behave in ways its developers didn't didn't intend, particularly if it's
00:06:11it's given access to tools or abilities abilities that that, you know, are
00:06:14are really, really important to us us as human beings. And that comes comes back to the Hugging Face issue
00:06:18issue and this apocalyptic warning warning that came. Out of it, that that actually it wasn't that it was
00:06:22was sentient, it was that it was was making decisions outside the
00:06:25the boundaries that had been set set for it. Yeah. There was some
00:06:28some unintended consequences of the the mission that those that those
00:06:31those models had been set or those those agents had been set, but a
00:06:34a lot of other cybersecurity experts experts have argued that those models,
00:06:37models, they behaved in the way that that they were supposed to behave. behave. They were set a task which
00:06:41which was a cybersecurity task, and and they went about trying to solve
00:06:44solve that task. Now it's arguable arguable that they cheated or they
00:06:47they were trying to cheat by by hacking hacking into other sites and trying
00:06:50trying to grab information from those those sites that they weren't trying trying to argue, they weren't trying
00:06:53trying to answer those missions or or solve those tasks in good faith.
00:06:57faith. But they behaved in the way way that you would expect them to
00:07:01to behave, perhaps. Yeah. I mean, mean, we're in a process here. We've
00:07:03We've had, as you say, some quite quite apocalyptic messages in the
00:07:07the last few days. But this meeting meeting today and then a really important important one next week that we're
00:07:11we're looking ahead to between President President Trump and President Xi Xi of China. Yeah. The meeting. Between
00:07:15Between President Trump and President
00:07:16President Xi is going to be absolutely absolutely enormous simply because
00:07:20because these are the two AI superpowers. superpowers. Almost all of the big
00:07:24big AI frontier, the frontier AI AI companies are US based companies.
00:07:27companies. And then China is coming coming up a close second. There is
00:07:31is a lot of debate about how far far behind China was in terms of
00:07:34of technology. But now a lot of industry industry experts are saying that
00:07:38that there's pretty much parity between between the two. So this is a race
00:07:42race between these two superpowers superpowers to dominate what is arguably
00:07:46arguably one of the most transformative transformative technologies that
00:07:48that will perhaps see in our lifetimes. lifetimes. Mark, thank you very much much for that. And Mark Catrin Nye
00:07:52Nye is on a very good programme that that I've been on this week called
00:07:55called AI Decoded, which people might might want to watch later this week. week. It's on YouTube from tomorrow.
00:07:59tomorrow. Do take a look at. That. That. Plug plug plug. Great to have
00:08:03have you back with us, Christian Christian and all the other great
00:08:06great BBC podcasts as well of course. course. Well let's bring in our panellists
00:08:10panellists Abel Maldonado former former Republican Lieutenant Governor
00:08:13Governor of California and Janet Janet Napolitano, former Secretary
00:08:17Secretary of Homeland Security in in the Obama administration and also,
00:08:20also, of course, former governor governor of Arizona. Thanks to you
00:08:23you both for being with us, Janet. Janet. Interested to get your thoughts
00:08:26thoughts on this. And not only were were you Department of Homeland Security
00:08:30Security Secretary, but in the Biden Biden administration, you were also,
00:08:32also, of course, on the Intelligence Intelligence Advisory Council. When
00:08:35When you listen to those sorts of of warnings from the King about,
00:08:38about, you know, we're at risk of of losing control of our destiny
00:08:42destiny and our souls. What's your
00:08:43your take on it all? Well the warnings
00:08:48warnings that the King extended are
00:08:49are not new. They have been put out
00:08:52out indeed by some of the CEOs of
00:08:55of the AI companies themselves. And And they've been known in the field
00:08:59field for quite a period of time.
00:09:02time. The real challenge has been
00:09:04been what do we do about them and
00:09:06and who has the responsibility and
00:09:08and the accountability for this technology?
00:09:12technology? And in the meantime and and in the background, we have this
00:09:16this race between the United States
00:09:17States and China, and you have the
00:09:20the President of the United States States basically saying these warnings
00:09:23warnings are I think the word he
00:09:25he used was a hoax. And so where
00:09:29where does that bi national international international co-operation come in,
00:09:33in, which I believe will be so essential
00:09:35essential in the end? Run with this
00:09:38this very dynamic and new technology.
00:09:43technology. But there are independent independent auditors raising the the alarm here. Is this something
00:09:47something that you can sort of climate climate deny your way out of, or
00:09:51or do you have to listen to the industry industry and the people that are
00:09:54are building this stuff? Well, I I really do believe that we have
00:09:57have to listen to the industry and, and, and the people that are building
00:10:00building this and who are these folks? folks? They're in America. They're
00:10:03They're in the US and I think we we need to be on top of them to make
00:10:07make sure that that there is accountability.
00:10:10accountability. As Secretary Napolitano Napolitano said, this is moving forward.
00:10:13forward. And the question is, is is who's accountable? I think the
00:10:16the companies that created it should should be accountable. Congress should
00:10:20should be involved immediately. I
00:10:21I mean, I worry about Congress because because Congress is messy and they
00:10:25they like to fight about a bunch bunch of other stuff. This is important.
00:10:29important. AI is not going to go
00:10:30go away, Christian. So I think that
00:10:33that as we move forward this next next meeting with President Trump
00:10:36Trump with Z is going to be very,
00:10:38very, very important. And this notion
00:10:40notion that, look, I kindly and just
00:10:44just disagree with President Trump Trump on this notion that it's a
00:10:47a hoax. No, it's here to stay. We We need to be focused on it and we
00:10:51we need to fix it. And I think it it needs to be fixed or it started
00:10:54started in America. Well we're going
00:10:56going to talk about the control and and the accountability in just a
00:11:00a moment. But when you're making making those points I mean there there are plenty of facets of our
00:11:04our lives that AI is involved in in that the developments have been
00:11:08been very, very positive, haven't haven't they? Absolutely. And look,
00:11:12look, if you are an individual who
00:11:15who doesn't have the resources to to hire an attorney, a lawyer, whatever
00:11:19whatever you want to call it an accountant, accountant, you want more information,
00:11:22information, these things can help help you. And they're helping a lot
00:11:25lot of people. So the question is,
00:11:27is, is very delicate. How do we move
00:11:30move this forward while having safe
00:11:33safe things in place so people don't
00:11:35don't get hurt? I mean, so look,
00:11:38look, AI is going nowhere. It's here here to stay. We're the US is leading
00:11:41leading on it. The question is, is is do we want to continue to lead?
00:11:44lead? Do we want to fix it or do do we want to let China, who has
00:11:48has zero sense of humanity as they they go forward with their AI? I
00:11:51I can guarantee you, Katrina and
00:11:54and Kristen, that China is not going going to stop. They're going to keep
00:11:57keep going forward a thousand miles miles an hour on this. We need to
00:12:00to be prepared. We need to be ready. ready. Let's talk a little bit more
00:12:03more about control because OpenAI, OpenAI, as we've discussed, is sharing sharing with the public information
00:12:07information about things that have have gone wrong. But there's no law
00:12:11law that requires them to do that. that. And in a sense, the companies
00:12:14companies are filling in the gap gap themselves here while they appeal
00:12:16appeal for Congress to put more formal
00:12:20formal guardrails in place. And as as we've just been saying there,
00:12:22there, the President isn't buying buying that argument. He has dismissed
00:12:26dismissed it all as a hoax, hasn't hasn't he? He's firm in his belief
00:12:29belief that any new regulation, as
00:12:30as he sees it, is going to hold America
00:12:34America back from the competitiveness competitiveness race here because because for him, AI is all about
00:12:37about national security and it's it's an economic imperative. But
00:12:41But on Capitol Hill, while the concerns concerns are viewed in a different
00:12:44different way and in fact there is is now a whole raft of legislation
00:12:48legislation to do with AI regulation regulation on data centres. We're
00:12:51We're seeing that as a big election
00:12:53election issue around finance. The The AI bubble demands for an AI kill
00:12:57kill switch. All of these bills are
00:12:59are at various stages in the process.
00:13:02process. Right now. John, there's
00:13:04there's a lot there to go at and and there are a lot of concerns in
00:13:07in many different directions. And And some of these bills are at different
00:13:11different stages. You need Congress Congress to be there. They've just
00:13:13just gone on recess for six weeks. weeks. There's a lot of people who
00:13:16who sit in Congress who don't understand understand this technology. There's
00:13:20There's no confidence, I don't think think on this side that Congress Congress is going to find a solution
00:13:24solution to this. So what do we do
00:13:26do in the interim? Well, what's interesting
00:13:29interesting is that in the gap left
00:13:32left by congressional inaction at at the federal level, a number of
00:13:35of states have been very active and
00:13:38and have been for several years on
00:13:40on AI and AI governance. California California being among the leaders
00:13:43leaders and of course, the AI industry
00:13:45industry is basically focused or
00:13:47or centred here in California. And And they've been moving forward step
00:13:51step by step by step to monitor to
00:13:53to monitor things like the effect
00:13:56effect on the employment and labour
00:13:59labour to put controls on false information.
00:14:04information. And is that not sufficient, sufficient, Janet? I mean, so forth. forth. I mean, these companies. And
00:14:07And so what I would suggest is that
00:14:11that Congress is complicated right right now and it's very divided.
00:14:14divided. And as you mentioned, the the House of Representatives just
00:14:16just gave up and went home for the the elections for seven weeks. But
00:14:20But the states are moving ahead and
00:14:22and I think there will be some real real activity in particularly the
00:14:25the large states where there's a a lot of AI presence. I was just
00:14:28just going to press you on, on this. this. The state legislation. I wondered
00:14:31wondered if it was sufficient enough
00:14:33enough because presumably CEOs are
00:14:36are governed by state laws. There There are liabilities for employees
00:14:39employees in these companies. Why
00:14:40Why is that not enough? Well because
00:14:46because there are 50 states and companies companies are located in different
00:14:49different places. And consequences
00:14:52consequences are felt in different different places. Ideally, you would
00:14:55would have not just a US federal
00:14:58federal legislative framework, but but an international framework to
00:15:02to work from. And that was really really interesting about King Charles's
00:15:05Charles's meeting that he had not not only representatives from the
00:15:09the United States and from the private private sector in the United States,
00:15:11States, but also from China. And
00:15:15And that's the complication, isn't isn't it? California, where you are,
00:15:17are, can pass as many laws as it
00:15:19it likes in a way. But AI doesn't doesn't care where the borders are.
00:15:23are. You need that federal
00:15:27legislation. I think you do. And And I think Janet pointed that out. out. There's 50 states and if there's
00:15:31there's 50 pieces of legislation legislation from 50 different places,
00:15:34places, you have this quilt that that makes no sense. So it's got
00:15:37got to be a federal national law law that I think that we can put
00:15:41put in place. Look, AI, as I stated stated earlier, is not going to go
00:15:45go away. The question is how do we we make it safe? How do we make it
00:15:49it something that's palatable for for everybody to move forward? Look,
00:15:52Look, CEOs care about obviously their their companies, but they also care
00:15:56care about the bottom line. So I
00:15:57I think we need to be focused. There
00:16:00There should be a bipartisan committee committee in Congress. And what does
00:16:03does that mean? A bipartisan committee
00:16:05committee from Congress. I mean it
00:16:07it should be bipartisan and we should should have one able. There is plenty
00:16:11plenty of bipartisan support for for this, but ultimately it is falling
00:16:14falling down to the views of one one man in this case, President Donald
00:16:18Donald Trump, to sort of stop that that legislation and instructing
00:16:21instructing Speaker Johnson to send send everyone home early yesterday.
00:16:25yesterday. Well, you know what? I I think we're actually safer when
00:16:28when they go home. Get them the hell
00:16:30hell out of Washington. I think Americans, Americans, we can go to bed safer
00:16:33safer when they're not there. So So I think that's great. Katrina.
00:16:37Katrina. So but at the end of the the day, Katrina, look, President
00:16:40President Trump, he I think he understands. understands. Look, there's a lot
00:16:43lot of mixed messages on data centres. centres. Some communities want data
00:16:46data centres. The one thing that that communities don't want. Why
00:16:50Why should a community pay higher
00:16:52higher rates on, on electricity because because of a private business oriented
00:16:56oriented data centre that can be be fixed. So yeah, I think there
00:16:59there needs to be a bipartisan committee. committee. And I think President
00:17:03President Trump will come around. around. He has to come around. This This is not going to go away. The
00:17:06The only thing I would say about
00:17:08about that from this side though
00:17:10though is, is that if a US company
00:17:13company builds a model that autonomously autonomously discovers the zero day
00:17:17day weaknesses in systems and it's it's hacking into critical infrastructure
00:17:21infrastructure or critical systems, systems, then America becomes a global
00:17:25global cyber risk for all of us. us. And so I wonder actually whether
00:17:29whether the UK and European countries countries have to intervene here
00:17:33here and pass their own strict laws, laws, even if that means they're
00:17:36they're under the threat of tariff
00:17:37tariff from Donald Trump. You're
00:17:40You're asking. Yes, of course, Christian,
00:17:44Christian, I think everybody should should be involved and put their their $0.02 in. This shouldn't be
00:17:47be a monopoly on the US and all of of a sudden we're dictating to the
00:17:51the world. But I think it's something something that we need to put in
00:17:54in place. I mean, with respect, you you kind of are I mean, I mean, Donald
00:17:58Donald Trump, we've put things in in place for social media and on
00:18:00on social media companies. And the the President has threatened Britain
00:18:04Britain with tariffs. Well, look, look, the US is the one that's kind
00:18:08kind of taken the lead on AI. And And right now they are in the lead.
00:18:11lead. And the question is what are are we going to do on an international international basis to make sure
00:18:14sure it moves forward? Janet, I think think has made it a point already. already. We have 50 states, but this
00:18:18this could be a worldwide thing. thing. Right now we have a president
00:18:21president who you know, he's a little
00:18:23little different. Johnny, he a little little different. But Johnny come
00:18:27come in on that. What do you what
00:18:28what do you make of that Janet. Well,
00:18:32Well, you know, one of the issues
00:18:34issues that that many of us have have with the Trump administration
00:18:37administration is the lack of respect respect for the international order
00:18:40order or for international order
00:18:42order at all. It's a very aggressive
00:18:46aggressive administration. It takes takes on former allies, former partners.
00:18:49partners. We've seen it in the trade
00:18:52trade wars and it has resulted in,
00:18:55in, I think, an environment of lack
00:18:57lack of international co-operation
00:18:59co-operation and in some respects,
00:19:02respects, international respect where
00:19:04where AI is concerned, it is a revolutionary
00:19:07revolutionary change in how we will
00:19:09will live our lives and the security
00:19:11security risks associated with it.
00:19:13it. It cries out for international
00:19:18international leadership, international international co-operation, international
00:19:20international diplomacy. But unfortunately, unfortunately, I fear that in the the current administration, those
00:19:24those are not our skill set. But
00:19:27But the industry and the innovators
00:19:30innovators in the industry are based based in the United States. So what
00:19:33what do we do with that? I think think it falls to the Congress to
00:19:37to act. I think bipartisan should
00:19:39should be the word of the day because
00:19:42because in the end the uses of AI
00:19:45AI can be very, very beneficial.
00:19:47beneficial. But the risks to security
00:19:50security are also substantial. And
00:19:52And it's those risks to security
00:19:54security that should be the focus focus of bipartisan because, you
00:19:57you know, you can be a Democrat or
00:20:00or a Republican or a liberal or a
00:20:03a Labour or Conservative. A risk risk is a risk. A security risk is
00:20:06is a security risk. It calls out
00:20:09out for people of different political
00:20:13political persuasions to work together. together. OK. Well, we're going to
00:20:15to be talking about some of those those international security matters
00:20:18matters in just a moment. Abel and and Janet, thank you very much. Do Do stay with us. Lots more still
00:20:22still to come
00:21:23to take the threat as a national national security priority? That's
00:21:25That's this week on Talking Business
00:21:27Business here on BBC News. Welcome
00:21:35Welcome back to The Context USA now. now. President Trump is expected
00:21:38expected to sign a major sanctions sanctions bill very soon, which is
00:21:41is aimed at cutting off the money money that's funding Russia's war
00:21:44war in Ukraine. This bill, it's been been debated for a long time, was
00:21:47was sponsored, of course, by the the late Senator Lindsey Graham.
00:21:50Graham. It just was passed by the the House yesterday before they went
00:21:54went on that recess break that we we were talking about. Now, this
00:21:57this bill would give the President
00:21:59President the power to impose tariffs
00:22:01tariffs up to 100% on the biggest biggest buyers of Russian oil. And
00:22:04And that means, of course, China China and India. But if there were
00:22:08were further tariffs, then surely surely that would push the global global price of oil even further.
00:22:12further. And that is feeding into into everything right now from shipping
00:22:15shipping to groceries to gas at the
00:22:17the pump. The central banks, well well they're reacting The Fed hiked
00:22:20hiked rates yesterday for the first first time since 2023. The Bank of
00:22:24of England signalled they'll be going going higher before the year end.
00:22:27end. Japan tomorrow will put up rates
00:22:29rates to levels not seen since the
00:22:33the 1990s. Then in North Carolina Carolina last night, President Trump
00:22:36Trump was addressing supporters there there and he said it's all worth
00:22:39worth it. Listen to the reaction.
00:22:42reaction. I have to say you have have a little higher. You have a
00:22:45a higher. It's a very inexpensive inexpensive price to pay for what
00:22:48what we've done. Remember that it's it's a little more. It's even if
00:22:52if it was frankly, even if it was was a lot more. But that's going going to come tumbling down. That's
00:22:56That's going to be like a rocket
00:22:58rocket ship in reverse. Now our panel
00:23:02panel Abel Maldonado and Janet Napolitano
00:23:04Napolitano are still with us. Janet, Janet, to you first. This sanctions
00:23:08sanctions bill has been a long time time moving through both houses of
00:23:12of Congress. President now saying saying he is going to sign it. We've
00:23:16We've seen such a marked shift in
00:23:17in his approach towards dealing with
00:23:20with Russia. Well, it depends on
00:23:22on the day. It seems like what his
00:23:25his position is with respect to Russia,
00:23:28Russia, the sanctions bill has has has been pending quite, quite a while.
00:23:31while. And the opposition to it in
00:23:33in the end was focused on the fact
00:23:35fact that it gave the President the
00:23:38the authority to impose, impose tariffs
00:23:40tariffs and to waive tariffs. And
00:23:44And given the prior history between
00:23:46between Congress and the Supreme Supreme Court and the President,
00:23:50President, the Supreme Court ultimately ultimately outlawed his imposition
00:23:53imposition of universal tariffs. tariffs. There was a lot of suspicion
00:23:56suspicion about giving the President President one more bite at the tariff
00:23:59tariff Apple. But nonetheless, it
00:24:02it was a strong bipartisan consensus consensus ultimately in the Senate
00:24:05Senate and in the House. And to me,
00:24:08me, the significance is the message
00:24:10message it sends to the White House
00:24:13House that this is a pro Ukraine
00:24:15Ukraine government and we want to to support Ukraine. That's a really
00:24:18really interesting point, Janet. Janet. Is that how you see it able?
00:24:21able? I mean, was this a is this
00:24:23this a bill that Congress has sent
00:24:25sent to signal it's had enough to to Russia or is it sending a message
00:24:29message to the White House that it's it's just tired of their approach
00:24:32approach towards this war with Ukraine? Ukraine? I think it's a little bit
00:24:35bit of both. I think at the end of
00:24:37of the day, it really sends a message message that the Congress is pro
00:24:41pro Ukraine. I mean, he's not pro
00:24:43pro war, but pro. Ukraine. We talked
00:24:45talked about the war would be ended ended soon in Ukraine. That hasn't
00:24:49hasn't happened. So look my hat's
00:24:53hat's off to the Ukrainians. But
00:24:54But this is still a very bad situation.
00:24:58situation. And realistically I mean mean I mean it's whether or not he
00:25:00he uses the tools within this bill bill is open to question. He could
00:25:04could put tariffs on China. He could could put tariffs on India. He's He's not really going to do that
00:25:07that is he? Well at the end of the the day you start listening to what's
00:25:11what's been going on lately that that some of the attacks on the US
00:25:14US troops in America were all by
00:25:16by Russian satellites giving information information to the Iranians. That
00:25:20That doesn't sit well with President President Trump. So all of a sudden
00:25:23sudden he's coming out and we're we're hearing this Lindsey Graham
00:25:26Graham bill move forward, more sanctions sanctions on Russia. I think as Janet
00:25:29Janet says, things move day to day day with President Trump. At the
00:25:33the end of the day, it's sending sending a message. And I think this
00:25:36this is a big bill that allows President President Trump to drop the hammer
00:25:39hammer on Russia once and for
00:25:43all. And of course, it was the passing passing of Lindsey Graham that really really sort of ignited the impetus
00:25:47impetus behind this bill with some some of his colleagues wanting to
00:25:50to pass it in his honour. President President Trump will meet President
00:25:53President Zelensky in New York next next week as well. So we'll see if
00:25:56if this issue arises. But lots more more still to come on this issue
00:26:00issue and others here on the context.
00:26:02context. USA so do stay with us here
00:27:35temperatures peaking into the mid
00:27:35mid 40s. Take care.
00:29:55online at bbc.com/business to get get the latest news wherever you
00:29:57you are. Business on BBC News. Make
00:30:01Make the connection. MUSIC
00:30:09MUSIC
00:30:18These are the latest headlines
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