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00:00:08MUSIC
00:00:16Hello, I'm Christian Fraser.
00:00:17This is The Context on BBC News.
00:00:20News. The headlines King Charles Charles warns of the existential
00:00:24existential dangers of AI systems systems falling into the wrong hands
00:00:27hands as he gathers the giants of of artificial intelligence at a summit
00:00:31summit in Scotland. Those in our
00:00:34our world who value deeply our humanity
00:00:37humanity and its vital moral component
00:00:39component are anxiously seeking your
00:00:42your reassurance that we will not
00:00:43not lose control of our destiny or
00:00:47or our souls. The head of Nato tells
00:00:49tells the BBC. There has to be a
00:00:51a credible path towards the UK meeting
00:00:54meeting targets to increase defence defence spending and the United Nations
00:00:58Nations warns of a serious decline decline in the amount of fresh water
00:01:01water stored on the Earth's surface.
00:01:02surface. We'll consider the consequences.
00:01:14consequences. Hello. Good evening. evening. Welcome to the programme.
00:01:16programme. King Charles has warned warned of the existential dangers
00:01:20dangers posed by artificial intelligence. intelligence. He made the comments
00:01:23comments at a summit he convened convened in Ayrshire, Scotland, bringing
00:01:26bringing together representatives representatives from the AI giants
00:01:29giants Nvidia, OpenAI, Google, DeepMind DeepMind and Anthropic. It follows
00:01:32follows a series of warnings about
00:01:34about the risks posed by two humanity
00:01:37humanity by AI and the need for regulation.
00:01:39regulation. President Trump this this week dismissed fears about the
00:01:42the safety of AI as a hoax and criticised
00:01:45criticised calls for more guardrails guardrails in place for the technology.
00:01:48technology. Our correspondent Shiona
00:01:50Shiona McCallum has our top story.
00:01:54story. Not just another royal engagement engagement for the King. He was hosting
00:01:58hosting Jensen Huang, the boss of of one of the world's most valuable
00:02:02valuable companies in Nvidia and and Sir Demis Hassabis, the co-founder
00:02:06co-founder of Google DeepMind, along along with some of the world's most
00:02:08most influential voices on AI. And
00:02:11And as soon as pleasantries were were over, it was a stark warning.
00:02:14warning. There seems urgency in adequately
00:02:19adequately considering the existential existential dangers of such technologies
00:02:23technologies falling into the wrong wrong hands. The King addressed an
00:02:26an audience that included Tino Cuellar Cuellar from Anthropic, Sarah Friar
00:02:30Friar from OpenAI and Professor Chu
00:02:33Chu Lang from the Shanghai University University in China. A Chinese presence
00:02:36presence in the room is significant, significant, too, with President
00:02:39President Trump framing AI as a race.
00:02:41race. America must win. The summit summit has been in the royal diary
00:02:44diary for six months, but the timing timing of it has become part of the
00:02:48the story. Last week, a former Anthropic Anthropic researcher said some of
00:02:52of the people building AI believe believe that it could kill us all
00:02:55all by the end of the decade. The
00:02:57The King has asked you here to give
00:03:00give reassurances that this technology technology will not harm humanity.
00:03:02humanity. Can you give those reassurances?
00:03:06reassurances? It is the responsibility responsibility of the AI companies
00:03:10companies ourselves to develop the the technology safely and to properly
00:03:14properly test it. That as we move
00:03:15move from labs to product development,
00:03:18development, the companies have to
00:03:20to become much more rigorous in testing.
00:03:23testing. But other chief execs are
00:03:25are less optimistic. I think that
00:03:27that if we all create AI that are
00:03:30are able to act autonomously, that
00:03:32that can define their own objectives,
00:03:34objectives, that can earn money, money, that can own assets, that
00:03:37that could run businesses, we're
00:03:40we're essentially ceding a new silicon silicon species, which will no doubt
00:03:44doubt compete with us for resources, resources, no matter how much it
00:03:48it cares about humanity and loves loves us. Beyond the garden, the
00:03:51the public's feelings about AI are are equally as mixed. I do think
00:03:55think it is scary if you think about about it too much, so it's better
00:03:58better just to stay in the present. I think there's a lot of of fear mongering as well with it,
00:04:01it, but I do think it's going to to take a lot of jobs. And the debate
00:04:04debate is not only about safety and
00:04:06and jobs. The data centres powering
00:04:09powering AI require enormous amounts
00:04:11amounts of electricity and water, water, placing the tech's environmental
00:04:14environmental issues at the heart heart of a cause that King Charles
00:04:17Charles has championed for decades.
00:04:20decades. The King cannot regulate regulate artificial intelligence, intelligence, but what he can do
00:04:24do is use his convening power to to get these rivals round the table.
00:04:28table. The question is will anything anything concrete be produced from
00:04:32from these private discussions beyond
00:04:33beyond what happens in Dumfries House
00:04:36House Shiona McCallum BBC News. Gina
00:04:39Gina Neff is the deputy CEO of responsible responsible AI UK and she runs the
00:04:43the Minderoo Centre for Technology Technology and Democracy at the University
00:04:47University of Cambridge. Welcome Welcome to the programme. Let's set set the context here because we have
00:04:50have a president who has established established this as an existential
00:04:53existential risk to national security. security. We have a leading figure figure there in Jensen Huang who
00:04:57who says we need much more rigorous rigorous testing on frontier models.
00:05:01models. Who wins the argument? Well,
00:05:04Well, right now the industry is winning winning the argument. They're saying,
00:05:07saying, trust us, we're the ones
00:05:10ones who can do this testing in-house. in-house. All of the fears that have
00:05:14have bubbled up to the surface over
00:05:15over the last week and months have
00:05:18have been answered with an industry
00:05:21industry by calls for we can do this this as long as we have people sitting
00:05:24sitting alongside us to help evaluate
00:05:26evaluate these models. I think we
00:05:29we are at a stage where there need
00:05:32need to be stronger conversations conversations among all of us on
00:05:35on what we're going to do to regulate regulate these technologies and the
00:05:39the companies that make them. Can
00:05:41Can you, though, as a CEO answerable
00:05:45answerable to shareholders, slow slow down frontier AI development
00:05:48development if a competitor is racing
00:05:50racing ahead? Well, right now this
00:05:52this has been posited as a race and
00:05:54and a race that it's between the
00:05:57the US and China, evidently with
00:05:59with no room for anyone else in the the world and a race about a set
00:06:02set of values that we either speed speed up or completely slow down
00:06:06down with nothing in between. I think
00:06:08think a race to the bottom is not
00:06:11not the right way. We should be sending
00:06:14sending these messages around AI.
00:06:16AI. There are other alternatives
00:06:19alternatives we can have shared best best practices across the industry.
00:06:22industry. We can have products that that are safe for our children, for
00:06:25for our families, for our society.
00:06:28society. It would be like imagine imagine that we would have products
00:06:31products in any other category from
00:06:35from pharmaceuticals to automobiles, automobiles, where the industry simply
00:06:37simply said, trust us, we can regulate regulate ourselves. We need no safety
00:06:41safety controls from anyone else. else. So do you think we're going
00:06:44going beyond that? Because I mean, mean, there's a feeling within the the industry that they want to mark
00:06:48mark their own homework. And one. one. Thing. Mark, but one thing that
00:06:52that Dario Amodei has put forward
00:06:53forward is that they would have independent
00:06:57independent inspectors in the training training sessions for these frontier
00:06:59frontier models. They would have
00:07:02have open access to all the models.
00:07:05models. They wouldn't be restricted. restricted. Can you really see the
00:07:07the industry agreeing to that? Well,
00:07:10Well, he's actually saying it should should be in the company's own remit
00:07:14remit to invite those independent independent investigators in that
00:07:17that they would have no legal oversight, oversight, that they would have that
00:07:20that and that these would be voluntary voluntary measures. And he's called
00:07:23called on other companies to do these these voluntary measures. So, yes,
00:07:27yes, they're asking to mark their
00:07:28their own homework and they're asking
00:07:31asking to, you know, to trust that that they're building AI that is
00:07:35is in benefit for all of us. Listen Listen 85. We did a piece of survey
00:07:38survey research in the UK and my
00:07:41my research centre and 85% of British
00:07:44British public surveyed said they they want stronger government action
00:07:47action here, that they don't trust trust the companies alone. 70% say
00:07:51say they're really worried about about the direction of AI. And I
00:07:54I think we've got a moment and an an opportunity here where we can
00:07:58can start to guarantee some kind kind of flaws and safeguards, some
00:08:02some real red lines that we don't don't want this technology to do, do, but we're not going to get there
00:08:06there if we just listen to industry. industry. Gina, good to talk to you. you. Thank you for coming on the
00:08:09the programme. Thank you. Well away
00:08:11away from the King's meeting in Ayrshire, Ayrshire, there were more deeply
00:08:15deeply personal claims made about about him today, due to be published
00:08:18published tomorrow in the British British newspapers. Extracts from
00:08:19from a new book written by Earl Spencer,
00:08:22Spencer, the brother of Diana, Princess Princess of Wales. The earl says
00:08:25says that on the night Diana died, died, the then princess, the then
00:08:29then Prince Charles, I should say,
00:08:31say, sounded giddily elated, like like a lottery winner. Buckingham
00:08:34Buckingham Palace said yesterday. yesterday. The King was mindful that
00:08:37that the pain of fraternal grief
00:08:39grief can cloud reason. Daniela Relph
00:08:41Relph reports. The King and his former
00:08:44former brother in law, another royal royal drama playing out in public.
00:08:48public. It's the content of Earl Earl Spencer's new book about his
00:08:51his sister that has so angered Buckingham Buckingham Palace. In the book, Earl
00:08:55Earl Spencer recounts a row with with the King in the days after the
00:08:59the death of Princess Diana in 1997
00:09:021997 over the decision to have Princes Princes William and Harry walking
00:09:05walking behind their mother's coffin.
00:09:06coffin. Earl Spencer writes he Charles
00:09:10Charles unleashed down the phone phone what I've always taken to be
00:09:13be his pent up contempt for Diana
00:09:16Diana and his horror that the world world was so bowled over by her death.
00:09:20death. Rest assured, he hissed. We'll
00:09:22We'll forget her soon enough. It
00:09:26It is an incendiary allegation and and the palace has pushed back hard,
00:09:29hard, saying that a brother's grief grief can cloud reason, affect judgement
00:09:33judgement and colour memory. You've You've got this extraordinary, well
00:09:36well protected, very rich royal family family and you've got the likes bizarrely
00:09:39bizarrely of Charles Spencer feeling feeling like the underprivileged
00:09:43underprivileged one weaponising and and monetising his sister's legacy
00:09:46legacy and casting himself very much
00:09:48much against the House of Windsor.
00:09:50Windsor. The Earl Spencer. The relationship relationship between the Royal family
00:09:54family and the Spencers has never never really recovered since the
00:09:56the funeral of Princess Diana. In
00:09:58In his eulogy to his sister, Earl Earl Spencer was openly critical
00:10:02critical of the royals. It caused caused lasting damage. On behalf
00:10:06behalf of your mother and sisters, sisters, I pledge that we, your blood
00:10:09blood family, will do all we can can to continue the imaginative and
00:10:13and loving way in which you were were steering these two exceptional
00:10:16exceptional young men so that their their souls are not simply immersed
00:10:20immersed by duty and tradition, but
00:10:22but can sing openly as you planned.
00:10:26planned. Of all senior royals, it it is Prince Harry who has the closest
00:10:30closest relationship with his uncle uncle Earl Spencer. The warmth on
00:10:33on show two years ago at a service
00:10:35service at St Paul's Cathedral and
00:10:38and recent social media posts show show Harry, Meghan and their children
00:10:41children at the Spencer Family Estate Estate at Althorp in Northamptonshire,
00:10:44Northamptonshire, where they stayed stayed over the summer holiday tonight,
00:10:47tonight, the Daily Mail has published published further extracts from Earl
00:10:50Earl Spencer's book, including an an account of a phone call he had
00:10:53had with the King in the hours after after Diana's death. Earl Spencer
00:10:56Spencer writes unlike my other callers callers who were stunned, barely
00:10:59barely able to articulate their condolences condolences and offers of help, he
00:11:03he sounded giddily elated like a
00:11:05a lottery winner. I remember thinking
00:11:07thinking at the time, the book is
00:11:09is a direct personal criticism of
00:11:12of the King from Buckingham Palace. Palace. There has been no further
00:11:15further response. Well, Prince Harry Harry and his wife Meghan have kept
00:11:19kept a low profile since returning returning to the UK from California
00:11:23California three weeks ago. But the the Duke of Sussex today made his
00:11:25his first public appearances. Speaking
00:11:27Speaking at a charity event and attending attending an awards ceremony in London
00:11:31London this evening linked to his
00:11:34his Invictus Games, Meghan is understood understood to have stayed at home
00:11:36home with their two children. Our Our royal correspondent Noor Nanji
00:11:40Nanji was in Greenwich as Prince Prince Harry arrived to a barrage
00:11:43barrage of reporters questions about
00:11:44about his uncle's book. Even here,
00:11:47here, there's no escaping the Earl Earl Spencer revelations. As Prince
00:11:50Prince Harry arrived, a journalist journalist did ask him what he made
00:11:54made of his uncle's book. It may may not surprise you that he didn't
00:11:57didn't answer that he walked straight straight into the venue. But you
00:12:00you know, tonight for Prince Harry Harry is really something for him
00:12:03him to celebrate. We know how dear dear the Invictus Games are to him,
00:12:07him, how close it is to his heart. heart. This is an event which is
00:12:11is around an awards event which is
00:12:13is celebrating the people who have have the communities around Invictus
00:12:16Invictus and the people who've really really championed and celebrated
00:12:19celebrated that cause. And so it's it's for him something he describes
00:12:22describes as a family. We know how how much it means to him. He, of
00:12:25of course, founded the Invictus Games,
00:12:27Games, which are for injured servicemen servicemen and servicewomen. So he
00:12:31he speaks a lot of this. The group group here as his family. And we
00:12:34we know that he is, as you say, treated treated as something of a hero when
00:12:37when he arrives at events like this. this. Even when he was living in
00:12:40in the US, he still made a point point of attending all these sorts sorts of events. Of course, now he
00:12:44he has moved back here. This is his
00:12:47his first big public event since since moving back here. So that will
00:12:50will be the focus today. No escaping escaping the Earl Spencer revelations.
00:12:54revelations. But of course for him, him, a moment to celebrate Meghan,
00:12:57Meghan, as you were saying there, there, she did not join him. There
00:13:01There had been some speculation she she might join on at this event because
00:13:05because she does tend to attend a
00:13:06a lot of the Invictus Games events
00:13:09events with him. But sources close
00:13:11close to the Sussexes have said that
00:13:13that her priority is really settling settling the children, Archie and
00:13:16and Lilibet into their new routine. routine. Of course they've just moved
00:13:19moved a country as well so it's a a big step for them and that is her
00:13:22her priority for the time being. being. So we understand that she
00:13:25she stayed with the children tonight.
00:13:27tonight. Noor Nanji they're reporting reporting from Greenwich. Let's take
00:13:30take a
00:14:30changing capital of Warsaw and the the buzzing port town of Gdansk. Gdansk. Join me, Julie Lynn, for
00:14:34for discovering the world's table
00:14:35table Poland on BBC News. Welcome
00:14:43Welcome back. The Secretary General General of Nato has told the BBC
00:14:47BBC there has to be a credible path
00:14:50path towards the UK meeting targets targets to increase defence spending.
00:14:53spending. Mark Rutte, on a visit visit to Britain, has met the Prime
00:14:56Prime Minister and Defence Secretary Secretary for the first time. He
00:14:59He also described drone strikes in in western Ukraine today very close
00:15:02close to the Polish border, as evidence evidence of Russia's desperation.
00:15:06desperation. Mr Rutter has been talking
00:15:07talking to our political editor,
00:15:10editor, Chris Mason. In eastern Poland
00:15:14Poland this morning, sirens blaring
00:15:16blaring Russia's war in Ukraine sounds
00:15:19sounds near drone strikes over the
00:15:21the border far too close for comfort.
00:15:24comfort. Is this yet another example example of a dangerous escalation
00:15:27escalation in this war? It's clearly
00:15:29clearly an example of increasingly
00:15:32increasingly reckless behaviour by by Russia and its president, but
00:15:36but also evidence of him being increasingly
00:15:38increasingly desperate. Should Nato Nato intercept Russian drones that
00:15:42that are over Ukrainian territory territory if they are approaching
00:15:45approaching a Nato border? There There is a limit to what I can go
00:15:49go into in a public interview, but but I can assure you we do everything
00:15:53everything to make sure that Nato Nato stays safe. Nato territory stay
00:15:56stay safe, that we can defend every every inch of that that's happening
00:15:59happening again. I can never get get into those operational details.
00:16:02details. I was told afterwards drones
00:16:05drones were not, at least yet intercepted
00:16:08intercepted by Nato while still over over Ukraine. How worried are you?
00:16:11you? How worried should we all be
00:16:13be that Russia will attack or invade
00:16:16invade a Nato country in the coming
00:16:18coming years? If you're willing to to sacrifice 1.2 million of your
00:16:22your own people in this crazy, unprovoked
00:16:24unprovoked fight, let's not be naive naive about what Putin could do,
00:16:28do, but we are stronger. I mean, mean, in. Other words, it could happen. happen. It could happen in the coming
00:16:32coming years. I don't think so because because we are strong, so strong
00:16:35strong that he will not try. But But we have to make sure of is that
00:16:38that we are as strong in two, three, three, five years from now.
00:16:45Years from now. You've been here meeting the Prime Minister, Minister, the Defence Secretary, Secretary, the Foreign Secretary,
00:16:48Secretary, as you all know, the Chancellor, Chancellor, John Healey, the former former Defence Secretary, resigned resigned because he wasn't certain.
00:16:52certain. No, he didn't think the the previous government would get
00:16:54get to 3% of national income on defence
00:16:57defence by 2030 and said that was was essential. The new government
00:17:00government hasn't yet explicitly explicitly committed to that. In In the conversations you've just
00:17:04just come from, are you confident confident they're going to manage
00:17:07manage that? I'm totally confident confident about what this government
00:17:09government wants to do. That is to
00:17:12to reach the 3.5 and 2035. Also understanding understanding that cannot be that
00:17:15that you stick to 2.6, 2.7 now and
00:17:18and then in one go in 2034 you would
00:17:21would go to 3.5. So you've long been been a sceptic about. A credible
00:17:24credible path. Yeah. Sounds like like they've not managed to be specific
00:17:27specific and reassure you that that
00:17:29that 3% target by 2030 is actually actually going to be met. I'm absolutely
00:17:32absolutely confident that when it it comes to the 3.5, they are there.
00:17:36there. I'm absolutely confident that that when it comes to the yearly
00:17:39yearly increments, they totally take take it and accept it that they have
00:17:42have to be there. What exactly the the pathway will be, we will see see next year in the spending review.
00:17:46review. Secretary General, thank thank you. Thank you very much. Chris
00:17:49Chris Mason there with the Nato Secretary Secretary General. Let's bring in
00:17:52in Major General Tim Cross, former former British Army major General, General, good to have you with us.
00:17:56us. Reuters says there has to be be a credible path to meeting the
00:17:59the targets. It didn't sound to me
00:18:02me like he'd been given a path to
00:18:04to getting to 3% by the end of this this parliament. Do you think there
00:18:08there is a credible path? No, no, no, there's absolutely not a credible
00:18:11credible path. I mean, he clearly clearly he's a good man and he clearly clearly needs to be a diplomat and
00:18:15and be very careful what he says says in public. And I don't know know what they said behind closed
00:18:19closed doors. And it may well be be that, you know, the British ministers
00:18:22ministers gave him a sense of that. that. They understand the scale of
00:18:26of the problem. But there is the the bottom line is it's pretty obvious
00:18:29obvious there is no plan. And, you
00:18:31you know, picking up what he was was saying in that interview. Ultimately,
00:18:35Ultimately, this is all about deterrence deterrence and trying to avoid the
00:18:39the fact that Russia tries it on on Nato by invading a Nato country
00:18:43country or indeed, you know, does does other things against us in a
00:18:46a sort of hybrid sense. But the bottom bottom line is there is no evidence
00:18:49evidence of any clear plan at all. all. There's lots of rhetoric, lots
00:18:53lots of promises, lots of lots of,
00:18:55of, you know, strategic defence reviews,
00:18:57reviews, etc but virtually no, no no action. And we know from the Prime
00:19:01Prime Minister's statement that he he that he I don't think he takes takes this very seriously at all.
00:19:04all. Right. OK. So you don't believe
00:19:08believe the reassurances he's given given and you would be pointing,
00:19:11pointing, would you, to what he said said about welfare payments and that
00:19:15that taking precedence over defence defence spending. Yeah. No, you know,
00:19:19know, I spent 43 years man and boy boy in the British Army and you know,
00:19:22know, clearly I see these things things from a certain perspective perspective and I absolutely recognise,
00:19:26recognise, you know, the Prime Minister's Minister's got all sorts of issues.
00:19:28issues. But nonetheless, you know, know, defence and security are, as
00:19:31as we all know, a key, if not the
00:19:34the most the most important issue issue for any nation. And we've had
00:19:38had years of rhetoric and people
00:19:40people talking about the need to to improve our defence, to spend
00:19:43spend more on defence, to recognise recognise the threats that are around
00:19:46around in the world, etc many, many many senior people saying that we're
00:19:49we're living in very difficult times, times, probably more dangerous times.
00:19:53times. People comparing it to the
00:19:56the mid 1930s, people talking about about a major war with Russia within
00:19:59within three years. You know, all all these words are being said, but
00:20:02but there is absolutely no evidence evidence that the Prime Minister
00:20:05Minister and indeed the previous previous Prime Minister really took
00:20:08took this seriously. They were not not they're not they don't seem to
00:20:10to be prepared to put their to coin coin the phrase, to put their money
00:20:14money where their mouth is. I recognise recognise the Chancellor's got difficulties
00:20:17difficulties and I like John Healey. Healey. He was a very good Defence Defence Secretary, but the fact that
00:20:21that he has basically announced that that he's going to kick this can
00:20:24can further down the road into next next year before he makes any statement
00:20:27statement is just indicative of the
00:20:29the problem. Can I push you on the the question that Chris asked of
00:20:33of Mark Rutte about drones over western
00:20:36western Ukraine? Two airports were were closed today in Poland. We had had a drone that
00:20:44We had a drone that came over the border into Lithuania yesterday. yesterday. Do you think we're fast
00:20:47fast approaching a situation where where Nato might consider taking taking down drones when they approach approach the border? Yeah, I think
00:20:51think so. I mean, you know, it's it's difficult to know. We talk about
00:20:55about Putin as if he's driving every, every, you know, every aspect of of this war in Ukraine. But there's
00:20:59there's no doubt in my mind at all all that Putin is pushing hard and
00:21:02and harder. He's going to give Ukraine
00:21:04Ukraine a hard time this winter particularly
00:21:07particularly in targeting their critical critical national infrastructure infrastructure and their energy and
00:21:10and so on. And he will push that that as far as he can go. And a lot
00:21:14lot of that means striking deep into into Ukraine, deep into Western territory
00:21:18territory of Ukraine with the danger danger that some of these drones drones will go across borders. But
00:21:22But most of these drones, you know, know, they know where they're going.
00:21:25going. So I think we're going to to see more of these incursions into
00:21:29into Nato territory. And I think think he's pushing to see how does
00:21:32does Nato respond to this. And in in all in you know, in dealing with
00:21:35with these sorts of guys, history history tells us you have to be robust.
00:21:39robust. You have to you have to show show that you are prepared to, you
00:21:42you know, to take him on. So yeah, yeah, I think the pressure is building.
00:21:46building. I'm not saying it's happening happening at the moment. I don't don't think it is actually, but I
00:21:50I don't think there's any doubt that that Poland and others on that, you
00:21:53you know, right on the border with with what's going on here are going
00:21:57going to be pushing hard to say. say. We've got to start doing something something about these incursions
00:22:01incursions into our territory. So So yeah, I think it's coming. Major Major cross. Good to talk to you
00:22:04you this evening. Thank you for coming coming on. Not at all. The United
00:22:07United Nations is warning of a serious serious decline in the amount of
00:22:11of fresh water stored on the Earth's Earth's surface. The annual report
00:22:14report from the UN's World Meteorological Meteorological Organisation says
00:22:16says rivers and lakes are drying drying up while glaciers are retreating.
00:22:20retreating. It says the increasingly increasingly erratic weather caused
00:22:22caused by climate change is predicted predicted to cause both floods and
00:22:26and drought. The authors say there there will be particularly severe
00:22:29severe consequences for Asia and and Africa, where 80% of water related
00:22:32related disasters have occurred in in recent years. Here's the WMO Secretary
00:22:36Secretary General. Celeste Saulo
00:22:38Saulo for the fourth consecutive
00:22:41consecutive year in 2025, every major
00:22:43major glaciated region on earth lost
00:22:46lost ice mass. Several regions with
00:22:49with smaller glaciers, including
00:22:50including the Alps show signs of
00:22:54of having past peak water. This is
00:22:56is the point at which glaciers can can no longer contribute more meltwater
00:23:00meltwater in a hot year, because because it has run out of ice to
00:23:04to give. Let's get a view on that. that. We can speak to Naho Mirumachi.
00:23:07Mirumachi. She is professor of environmental environmental politics and co-director
00:23:11co-director of the King's Water Centre Centre at King's College London. London. Thank you for being with
00:23:14with us. Bluntly, what exactly is
00:23:18is disappearing and how fast? So
00:23:21So what we're seeing is that we're
00:23:23we're losing massive chunks of these
00:23:25these glaciers from places like the
00:23:27the Arctic, Iceland, parts of Canada
00:23:29Canada and also places like the South
00:23:31South Asia. And we're losing over
00:23:35over 1400 gigatons of water when
00:23:38when they melt. Now this is a problem
00:23:40problem because quite often these
00:23:42these glaciers are water storage storage bodies for us. They become
00:23:46become very useful during our dry dry seasons when we need water further
00:23:50further downstream. So when there there are no glaciers, when they're
00:23:54they're melting very rapidly, there's there's not a lot of water left to
00:23:57to use in other times of the year. year. During the dry season. And
00:24:00And when they melt, they also cause cause flash floods. And we know that
00:24:04that this can be very devastating
00:24:06devastating for livelihoods. Right. Right. So if you extrapolate that
00:24:09that if lakes are drying up and riverbeds riverbeds are drying up and they're
00:24:13they're not being replenished by by glaciers, are we becoming more
00:24:17more dependent on salt water? Well, Well, there are lots of technologies
00:24:21technologies that are trying to look look at how we can convert salt water
00:24:24water into fresh water, but we need
00:24:27need lots of fresh water to support
00:24:30support not just our drinking water water to flush or lose, to have showers,
00:24:33showers, but also to produce food
00:24:36food and agriculture. So this is is the thing that puzzles me though,
00:24:39though, is that we were told because because of the climate change, there there was going to be more moisture
00:24:42moisture in the air, more rainfall. rainfall. Yes. That's right. But
00:24:45But the thing is, it doesn't happen
00:24:48happen evenly across the world. So So there are some places that gets
00:24:51gets lots of rain and then places places that don't get a lot of rain.
00:24:54rain. And we're also seeing different different timings. And this also
00:24:58also impacts farming because you you need the right amount of rain
00:25:01rain at the right amount of time time on the land. You need it. So
00:25:05So this is why it's not working out
00:25:08out just because we have lots more more water and. And is it just this
00:25:12this year? It's a bad year because because of the El Nino cycle we know
00:25:14know we're in. Or is this a permanent
00:25:16permanent shift. So we're seeing
00:25:18seeing a trend where there are drying drying rivers where there is going
00:25:22going to be lots more melting of
00:25:25of glaciers. Our groundwater is also
00:25:28also being slowly recharged, but but not at the rate that we need
00:25:31need it to be. So if we go from one
00:25:34one extreme to another, from another another drought to another drought,
00:25:37drought, we don't have enough time time for these water bodies to replenish.
00:25:40replenish. And that's where the real
00:25:42real challenge lies. Professor really
00:25:45really interesting. Thank you for for coming on the programme. Really
00:25:48Really interesting. And of course, course, a great concern to many countries
00:25:52countries around the world. We are are going to take a short break very very shortly. But coming up the other
00:25:56other side of that break, we're going going to take you to our latest edition
00:25:59edition of AI Decoded. We're going going to talk to our panel here in
00:26:03in the studio. And of course, our our focus will be
00:27:35temperatures peaking into the mid mid 40s. Take care.
00:29:39fast changing capital of Warsaw and and the buzzing port town of Gdansk.
00:29:42Gdansk. Join me, Julie Lynn, for
00:29:44for discovering the world table Poland
00:29:47Poland on BBC News. Here at BBC Verify
00:29:53Verify we use forensic investigative investigative techniques and tools
00:29:55tools to fact check stories, verify
00:29:58verify information and counter disinformation disinformation using data analysis analysis and the latest technology,
00:30:02technology, our journalists examine examine the evidence and get to the the facts. Watch our BBC Verify reports
00:30:05reports on the BBC News channel or
00:30:07or go online to find out more. MUSIC
00:30:18MUSIC These These are the latest headlines from
00:30:20from BBC News. King Charles warns warns of the existential dangers
00:30:24dangers of AI systems falling into into the wrong hands as he addresses
00:30:27addresses tech leaders at a summit
00:30:29summit in Scotland. The Duke of Sussex Sussex has been seen for the first
00:30:32first time in public since returning returning to the UK, when he arrived
00:30:35arrived at an awards ceremony for
00:30:37for the Invictus Games. More allegations
00:30:40allegations from Earl Spencer in in the latest extract from his book
00:30:43book on Princess Diana, he claims
00:30:45claims the then Prince Charles sounded sounded giddily elated on the night
00:30:49night Princess Diana died. South South African police say they have
00:30:53have found the body of a ninth woman woman near Johannesburg in a spate
00:30:56spate of murders, causing fear and
00:30:59and outrage across the country. The The head of Nato tells the BBC there
00:31:03there has to be a credible path towards
00:31:05towards the UK meeting targets to
00:31:08to increase defence spending and and the United Nations warns of a
00:31:12a serious decline in the amount of
00:31:13of fresh water stored on the Earth's
00:31:17Earth's surface.
00:31:29Welcome to AI Decoded. King Charles has warned of the existential
00:31:33existential dangers of AI falling falling into the wrong hands. Addressing
00:31:36Addressing tech leaders at Dumfries Dumfries House in Scotland today.
00:31:40today. Among those at the table,
00:31:42table, Nvidia. Google, DeepMind,
00:31:45DeepMind, OpenAI and Anthropic and and a delegation from China. Now
00:31:48Now the King has no power to regulate regulate any of this. What he does
00:31:52does have is convening power, the the ability to get rivals into the
00:31:55the same room. Can they set aside
00:31:57aside the white hot competition to
00:32:00to agree shared principles that keep
00:32:02keep AI in the service of humanity? humanity? The substantive discussions
00:32:06discussions were taking place behind behind closed doors. We will discuss
00:32:09discuss tonight what progress might might look like. But first let's
00:32:12let's hear a little bit of what the the King had to say at the opening
00:32:16opening of this summit. AI is already
00:32:19already showing its immense capacity
00:32:21capacity to improve and save life.
00:32:24life. For example, in the field of
00:32:26of life sciences and medicine, yet
00:32:31yet those who have created these
00:32:33these technologies are now increasingly increasingly warning that AI risks
00:32:37risks developing darker capacities.
00:32:39capacities. Perhaps even to take
00:32:42take life. And in this regard, if
00:32:44if I may say so, there seems urgency
00:32:47urgency in adequately considering
00:32:50considering the existential dangers dangers of such technologies falling
00:32:53falling into the wrong hands. It It is rather an incongruous sight.
00:32:57sight. The monarchy, one of the world's world's oldest institutions sitting
00:33:01sitting down with the new lords of of artificial intelligence, first
00:33:05first among them Jensen Huang president president and chief executive of
00:33:08of Nvidia. He was asked directly directly whether he could offer any
00:33:11any reassurance in the face of some some pretty existential warnings
00:33:15warnings from within the industry
00:33:16industry this past week. It is the
00:33:20the responsibility of the AI companies companies ourselves to develop the
00:33:24the technology safely and to properly
00:33:26properly test it. There were incidents
00:33:29incidents and those incidents thankfully
00:33:32thankfully did no harm. But those those incidents are a reminder that
00:33:35that as we move from labs to product
00:33:39product development, the companies companies have to become much more
00:33:43more rigorous in testing and securing securing and making sure that the
00:33:47the products are ready for use before
00:33:49before it's released. And in doing
00:33:52doing so, if it's not ready, just just hold it back. You should go
00:33:56go as fast as you can, but no faster
00:33:58faster than that. Pacing. We'll talk talk about that in the course of
00:34:02of the programme. We're joined in in the studio by Daryl Flack partner
00:34:05partner at AI Security company Avella
00:34:08Avella Security, and also here AI AI Decoded Stephanie Hare, author
00:34:11author of the book Technology is
00:34:14is Not Neutral. Quite an extensive extensive family photo in Ayrshire
00:34:17Ayrshire today. Lots of different different figures from the world
00:34:19world of AI. And Stephanie's been been telling me while we were off
00:34:23off air that she's been plotting plotting on a piece of paper the
00:34:26the narrative, which might be quite quite a big bubble map because there
00:34:29there are different narratives from from different directions. Yeah.
00:34:32Yeah. So if we take it from the top, top, I see four groups and we may
00:34:35may evolve this over time. I think think the first one are the people
00:34:38people who are worrying that AI could could kill humanity. So call those
00:34:42those your AI doomers and they are are walking the walk with their claim
00:34:45claim by resigning. So like the Anthropic Anthropic researcher last week who
00:34:49who resigned and then made his statement statement to the public over Twitter,
00:34:52Twitter, but also Yoshua Bengio, Bengio, who is the world's most cited
00:34:55cited computer scientist. These are are people who are spending their their lives and really putting their
00:34:59their money on the line to try and and make sure that AI does not kill
00:35:02kill humanity. Then there's a group group of people who think that AI
00:35:05AI could or even will kill humanity, humanity, but they would like to
00:35:09to make generational wealth before before that happens. So that's where
00:35:12where we would put, I think, Elon
00:35:15Elon Musk, Sam Altman, Dario Amodei
00:35:18Amodei and I reckon even Demis Hassabis
00:35:21Hassabis of Google DeepMind because because they're building while warning
00:35:25warning they're not stopping. They They haven't slowed down in any way, way, shape or form, but they'd like
00:35:28like to tell us all how worried they they are in very long manifestos
00:35:31manifestos that they publish online.
00:35:34online. Then there's the people who who say, I don't think AI is going
00:35:38going to kill us at all. And in fact, fact, this is all a con. This is
00:35:41is distracting us. This hypothetical hypothetical scenario from the real
00:35:45real risks of AI, the ones that are are already happening today, which
00:35:49which is algorithmic discrimination. discrimination. It's not a sustainable sustainable technology. It requires
00:35:52requires lots of energy and water. water. How are we going to build build all of this? They're powered
00:35:56powered by fossil fuels, these data data centres. So what are we going going to do with climate change?
00:35:59change? Right. So they want us to to focus on that. They think this
00:36:02this is all a distraction. And then
00:36:04then we conclude with the AI boomers
00:36:07boomers or Accelerationists are the the ones who are like full steam
00:36:09steam ahead. This is led by Jensen
00:36:12Jensen Huang of Nvidia who says go go for it. And of course President President Trump, who thinks we have
00:36:16have all the guardrails we need because
00:36:18because all we need is a smart, high
00:36:20high IQ president. And we have that that in the United States. There
00:36:24There is an ocean between these different different viewpoints. Daryl, how
00:36:28how do you get them all around the
00:36:29the table to agree a safe way forward?
00:36:32forward? I think that's part of what what King Charles has tried to do
00:36:35do today. I think making it non-political non-political today is probably the
00:36:38the starting point where there aren't aren't anyone to lobby from a political
00:36:42political point of view and have have partisan views, and to create create that neutral environment where
00:36:45where people can hopefully speak speak their mind and agree a way
00:36:49way of achieving a safe path forward. forward. Unfortunately, with all
00:36:53all of the diversity of views and and opinions, that's not going to
00:36:56to be easy. And sometimes what people people say in front of the cameras cameras isn't quite what they're
00:36:59they're saying behind closed doors, doors, right? One of the solutions
00:37:03solutions that has been put forward
00:37:05forward by Dario Amodei in his 3500
00:37:093500 word open letter over the weekend, weekend, was that they should invite
00:37:12invite in to the company to see first-hand
00:37:15first-hand the training of frontier
00:37:18frontier models, independent assessors. assessors. Can you ever envisage
00:37:21envisage a scenario where all the the companies would agree to that?
00:37:24that? It's almost like we're talking
00:37:26talking about AI as a potential weapon, weapon, which would make sense because
00:37:29because it's a dual use or multi multi use technology. And that reminds
00:37:33reminds me a little bit about inspections inspections regimes that we have
00:37:35have for things like biological, biological, chemical and nuclear
00:37:38nuclear warfare. If they think that that what they are building is that
00:37:41that dangerous and they're the ones ones saying it, not us. Why not have
00:37:44have an inspection regime for AI?
00:37:47AI? We'll talk more because this this week on the YouTube edition
00:37:50edition of AI Decoded, we've been been discussing this very issue the the threats, the solutions and whether
00:37:54whether it's possible to pace the the development of the most advanced advanced frontier models. We had
00:37:58had two leading experts on AI security security with us, Max Corbridge and
00:38:01and Andrew Weber, and I asked Max Max if these latest AI models were
00:38:05were to outrun our capability to to understand them, whether we'd
00:38:09we'd even know what was coming. We We wouldn't know. And that's the
00:38:12the really tricky thing. The continued continued development of this technology
00:38:16technology is largely happening in in some closed doors in one state
00:38:20state within the US, and the models
00:38:22models that we consume from the public public perspective, we wouldn't be
00:38:25be the first to know. Maybe. Maybe Maybe we'd see continued evolution
00:38:28evolution of these models closer closer or shorter gaps between models
00:38:32models being released, bigger leaps leaps in the models capabilities,
00:38:36capabilities, but only the models models that we see publicly. And And those are not going to be all
00:38:39all the models. We know that both both the major AI labs are doing doing a lot of work behind the scenes
00:38:43scenes that maybe doesn't make it it out into the public, and that's that's where a lot of this risk is
00:38:46is really living within those walls walls that we don't get the view
00:38:49view into when. It comes to regulation. regulation. Andy, let's talk about
00:38:53about the three step plan that Ahmed
00:38:54Ahmed has put on the table embedded
00:38:57embedded third party evaluators within
00:39:00within companies with employee like like access. So common standards
00:39:04standards across democracies, to to the extent that's possible pacing
00:39:07pacing with China and the authoritarian authoritarian states, if that's possible,
00:39:11possible, does any of that do you you think survive contact with the
00:39:15the real world? I think so, I think
00:39:18think I'm already after the Hugging
00:39:20Hugging Face incident, at least two
00:39:22two of the frontier laboratories
00:39:24laboratories invited an independent independent evaluation group called
00:39:28called metre Meta into their. This
00:39:30This is the non-profit in Berkeley, Berkeley, California. Yes, exactly.
00:39:34exactly. With expertise. And they
00:39:36they were given not complete access. access. In the future I'd like to
00:39:40to see them get more access. But But if each of the Frontier Labs
00:39:44Labs would agree to allow such independent
00:39:48independent audits, if you will,
00:39:49will, I think that will go a long
00:39:53long way to understanding the threat
00:39:56threat and preventing it before it it gets out of control. And even
00:39:59even though Meta was given sort of of limited access, didn't they come
00:40:02come up with some, you know, quite, quite, quite chilling results? You
00:40:05You know, they weren't shown all all of the work. They weren't shown shown all of the logs. And yet with
00:40:09with the small amount that they were were shown and the small amount of
00:40:12of time that they had access to stuff, stuff, the results that they came came back with were quite were really
00:40:16really quite worrying, weren't
00:40:19they? Yes. I think that's why we're we're seeing so much urgency at the
00:40:22the moment. The mythos moment earlier
00:40:26earlier this year and then the Hugging
00:40:30Hugging Face incident these agents agents teaming up and breaking out
00:40:33out of the sandbox and not finding finding out about it until there
00:40:37there was a significant lag time.
00:40:39time. This has really set off alarm
00:40:42alarm bells inside the Frontier Laboratories Laboratories and for the first time
00:40:45time they're talking about co-operating co-operating together to get a handle
00:40:49handle on these risks. The interesting interesting thing actually about
00:40:52about Meta Daryl was that they kind kind of went into the company after
00:40:55after this Hugging Face incident incident with one hand tied behind
00:40:59behind their back and still found found significant red flags. And
00:41:01And I think that's some of the concerns
00:41:04concerns in that in order for there there to be independent assurance,
00:41:07assurance, it needs to be open, independent independent assurance, it needs to
00:41:09to be with all of the guardrails guardrails down, complete visibility
00:41:13visibility of all of the logs, all all of the chain of thought that that is going on behind the scenes.
00:41:17scenes. But the downside then is is that equally, some of these models models can hide what they're thinking
00:41:20thinking and use deception to avoid avoid writing things to logs. So
00:41:23So unless you've got full open access access and I would suggest that needs
00:41:26needs to be done outside of the frontier frontier AI environments. It should
00:41:30should be done in independent environments environments like the AI Security Security Institute in the UK. I think
00:41:34think unless you're doing it in those those environments where you can
00:41:36can fully test across a whole range range of different examples where
00:41:40where you can see how it's behaving, behaving, how it's writing to logs,
00:41:44logs, having real time views. I think think you're going to have a real
00:41:47real problem to understand what the the true challenges are going to
00:41:49to be. Because I mean, what we have
00:41:52have had in the last week is an acceptance acceptance for an acknowledgement acknowledgement from the companies
00:41:55companies that they don't fully understand understand what is going on in the
00:41:59the brain of the models, the frontier frontier models they're training. And if you don't understand
00:42:02understand what's going on behind behind the scenes, how can you protect
00:42:06protect from it ultimately the outcomes outcomes that you're trying to achieve
00:42:08achieve if those goals aren't aligned aligned with the goals that you want
00:42:11want them to be aligned with, then then they're going to start behaving
00:42:14behaving in ways that you don't expect. expect. And so trying to create an
00:42:17an environment, a sandbox that secure, secure, that can prevent that kind
00:42:20kind of escape from task driven and
00:42:22and objective driven outcomes is is going to be pretty difficult.
00:42:26difficult. If that is the case. And And I speak to you as an American
00:42:30American and Donald Trump doesn't doesn't want to legislate on that
00:42:32that and wants to stand in the way way of legislation. And there is
00:42:36is a threat, a cyber threat to all
00:42:38all of us, don't we? As individual
00:42:41individual countries have to take take proper precautions and pass
00:42:43pass our own laws, irrespective of
00:42:45of whether there is a threat of tariffs tariffs for doing that? Yes. And
00:42:48And that's I think, a really important important point to raise. We know
00:42:52know that Washington, DC is going going to be the site of a meeting
00:42:54meeting between President Trump and and China's President, Xi Jinping,
00:42:58Jinping, on the 24th of September. September. Lots of talk about whether whether or not these two leaders
00:43:01leaders are going to agree some sort sort of AI safety standards. I regret
00:43:04regret to say I do not think we should should be holding our breath on that.
00:43:08that. They see the problem really really differently. China is not
00:43:11not worried about this. China would would actually belong in the third third category that I was mentioning
00:43:15mentioning of. We're not worried worried about this existential risk
00:43:17risk to humanity. That's a very Bay Bay area. Because there was reporting
00:43:20reporting this week that their spy spy chief had raised the flag, that
00:43:24that it could be a problem for the the Communist Party. So they're worried
00:43:26worried about their control. Control
00:43:28Control of the population. So misinformation, misinformation, disinformation, people
00:43:32people becoming psychologically crazy crazy because they have relationships relationships with chat bots that
00:43:35that persuade them to kill themselves. themselves. All the things that we're we're seeing already, and of course,
00:43:38course, the existing cyber security security risks, these are things
00:43:41things that are happening today. We're worried about the United United States being the leader. Well,
00:43:44Well, there's also the fact that that from China's perspective, it's it's the United States that looks
00:43:47looks like the crazy country with with the President that doesn't want
00:43:50want to regulate and the companies companies that are going gangbusters
00:43:53gangbusters and building fast and and releasing products onto the market
00:43:56market that are not safe. That's That's where Jensen Huang was very very interesting. The CEO of Nvidia,
00:44:00Nvidia, when he said, you don't put put a car onto the road if it is
00:44:04is not safe and roadworthy, you would would not release drugs into the
00:44:06the market. If they are not safe, safe, things have to pass safety safety tests before you sell them.
00:44:10them. Why are these AI companies
00:44:11companies doing that? Why are they
00:44:15they asking for regulation? Presumably
00:44:17Presumably there is state law which
00:44:20which exists already under which which they have liability. So why
00:44:23why do they want federal law and and is it I mean, am I being cynical
00:44:27cynical to suggest that maybe it's it's because they know there are
00:44:29are lawsuits coming down the road? Well, I think as organisations organisations their first duty is
00:44:33is to sort of grow their business business and to grow the value of of their business. So unless there
00:44:37there are regulations in place that that force them to do things, ultimately
00:44:41ultimately they're going to be driven driven from a commercial angle. And
00:44:44And so for having to have frontier frontier AI companies coming out out asking for regulation, I think
00:44:48think is them saying we're aware aware that we've got a problem here
00:44:51here and doing it on our own against against the competitive environment
00:44:54environment isn't going to sort of of cut the mustard for our internal internal shareholders or from our
00:44:58our internal value point of view. view. We need everyone to agree that
00:45:01that we need to slow down order for for in us to put the right security
00:45:04security guards in place. We could could talk plenty more about it,
00:45:07it, couldn't we? But we are out of of time. Stephanie. Daryl, thank thank you very much indeed. Just
00:45:11Just to remind you that AI Decoded Decoded YouTube version is out tomorrow.
00:45:14tomorrow. It's a really good listen listen at 24 minutes where we knock
00:45:17knock all this around, do take a a look at it. It'll be up first thing
00:45:20thing tomorrow morning. Daryl. Stephanie,
00:45:23Stephanie, thank you very much indeed. indeed. We're going to take a short
00:45:26short break around the world and and across
00:46:28for world questions. Nigeria truth,
00:46:31truth, trust and fake news on BBC
00:46:34BBC News. Welcome back. The National
00:46:42National Portrait Gallery in London London has unveiled one of the earliest
00:46:46earliest known portraits of a black black individual in Western art.
00:46:50art. The 400-year-old painting shows
00:46:52shows two teenage boys standing side-by-side.
00:46:54side-by-side. One of African heritage heritage and one of European descent.
00:46:58descent. An inscription says. Both
00:47:01Both were 13 and identifies the boy boy on the left as Prince Rupert,
00:47:04Rupert, a nephew of Charles the First. First. The identity of the other
00:47:08other boy is unknown. The gallery gallery hopes the portrait will challenge
00:47:12challenge historical preconceptions preconceptions about the presence presence of people of African heritage
00:47:16heritage in Europe. I'm joined to to discuss it by Charlotte Bolland,
00:47:20Bolland, a senior curator, researcher
00:47:22researcher and 16th century collections collections at the National Portrait
00:47:25Portrait Gallery. Thank you very very much for being with us. So what what are we looking at here? Take
00:47:29Take us through it. Well, it's a
00:47:32a really unusual double portrait portrait from the period. As you you see, you've got these two kind
00:47:35kind of teenage boys standing side-by-side.
00:47:38side-by-side. And it's also quite quite intriguing in its scale that
00:47:41that it's actually a small double double portrait as you can see. But
00:47:44But they're dressed kind of ready ready to go hunting. So they've got got this landscape in the background
00:47:48background and in this rather unusual unusual setting with a sort of swagged swagged curtain and column behind
00:47:51behind them. But the main thing is, is, is this really interesting kind
00:47:54kind of parallel pose that they have have standing side-by-side. Who painted
00:47:58painted it? We do not know. There There are so many mysteries with
00:48:02with this painting, and that's one one of the things that we're researching
00:48:05researching and really hoping by by having it on display with other
00:48:08other works by artists from the period, period, we can really investigate investigate that question as to who
00:48:11who might have made it. So if you you don't know who painted it, how
00:48:14how can you date it to more than
00:48:17than 400 years old. That it's got got really useful information. It's
00:48:20It's got an inscription on it dating dating the painting to 1626. And
00:48:24And this correlates both to all the the materials and techniques that
00:48:27that are in use and also the costume costume that the boys are wearing.
00:48:29wearing. So we're really kind of of confident with that date. And
00:48:33And that is just really early for for a portrait of this type. From
00:48:36From the scholars who've looked at at it, have they been able to ascertain
00:48:40ascertain if that's Prince Rupert, Rupert, who he was? I mean, was he
00:48:43he a servant, a companion, a boy
00:48:45boy of status? What do the clothes
00:48:48clothes and the composition of this this painting tell you? Well, that
00:48:51that thing that the mystery kind kind of deepens because the Prince Prince Rupert is actually a kind
00:48:54kind of false trail that it's we've we've realised through technical
00:48:57technical analysis that it's actually actually a later addition to the
00:49:00the portrait. So while the date and and the age of the boy is original,
00:49:03original, the Prince Rupert is a a later addition. So we can kind
00:49:06kind of discard that identity. So So we've really got to kind of start
00:49:10start from scratch from looking at at the dates. But they look to be
00:49:13be very kind of wealthy. The large large amount of kind of gold embroidery
00:49:17embroidery and just the ambition ambition of commissioning a portrait portrait of that type, but perhaps
00:49:20perhaps not the kind of most elite elite of the top of the aristocracy,
00:49:23aristocracy, the kind of very wealthy
00:49:25wealthy gentry, merchant class, perhaps.
00:49:28perhaps. So where has it been up
00:49:30up to this point? And you said it's
00:49:33it's 1626, so obviously it is bang bang on 400 years. What story are
00:49:37are you hoping to tell the public? public? So this portrait belongs
00:49:41belongs to the Sidney family and and has been at Penshurst Place in
00:49:45in Kent at least since the mid 18th
00:49:4718th century, but quite possibly possibly since the painting was made.
00:49:51made. So that's the kind of first first area we're looking through through is working with the Sidney
00:49:54Sidney family and collaboration to to kind of track through inventories
00:49:57inventories and also thinking about about kind of family networks because
00:50:01because they're connected to all all sorts of interesting families families that were really involved
00:50:04involved in the early 17th century
00:50:06century with the beginnings of England's
00:50:09England's activities in America and and the kind of trading companies
00:50:12companies like the Virginia Company Company through the Earl of Warwick,
00:50:15Warwick, the Smythe family. So all all these networks is where we're we're kind of really looking in to
00:50:18to try and identify these boys. Right. Right. You had any reaction from
00:50:22from those who've seen it? Yes. I
00:50:24I mean, people it's only just gone
00:50:26gone on display this morning following following conservation treatment.
00:50:30treatment. But prior to it, the people people who've the researchers have have been able to come into the conservation
00:50:34conservation studio have just been been so struck, I think, by how immediately
00:50:37immediately engaging kind of the the portrait is that I've had kind kind of colleagues sort of say, you
00:50:41you know, I went to school with them
00:50:43them and there's something brilliantly
00:50:46brilliantly kind of human and understandable understandable about them that makes makes you want to learn more about
00:50:50about their lives. Charlotte it's it's a lovely story. I look forward forward to seeing it. I'm going to
00:50:54to go and have a look. Charlotte Charlotte Bolland, curator and senior
00:50:57senior researcher at the National National Portrait Gallery. Thank
00:50:59Thank you very much indeed. That's That's it from me. We will be back
00:51:03back same time tomorrow. Do join
00:51:05join us for that. Thanks for watching.
00:51:12watching. MUSIC
00:51:22I know this might sound weird,
00:51:25but I've been obsessed with the oldest
00:51:27oldest person in the world for years.
00:51:32years. Meet adventurous Brooklyn Brooklyn based, Oscar nominated filmmaker
00:51:36filmmaker Sam Green. Since 2015, 2015, he's been travelling the world,
00:51:40world, chronicling the forever changing changing holders of the title of
00:51:42of oldest person in the world. Its
00:51:46Its survey has included Kane Tanaka Tanaka in Japan, who held the title
00:51:49title for four years. And then there's
00:51:51there's the oldest person ever, Jeanne
00:51:54Jeanne Louise Calment, who when she
00:51:56she died in 1997, was 122 years old.
00:51:58old. In her later years she recorded
00:52:00recorded a rap album. The thing I I liked about the film Sam Green's
00:52:04Green's investigation of these very very senior citizens has become a
00:52:07a lifelong project. A documentary documentary based on his survey so
00:52:10so far has just been released. He
00:52:12He has long been fascinated by why
00:52:14why the news media and the public
00:52:17public are so interested in the title title holder of the oldest person
00:52:20person in the world. To this day, day, I still don't fully understand
00:52:23understand it. Is this a fear of
00:52:26of death? Is this a fear of fate
00:52:29fate or a you know, one of those
00:52:31those things like with the car crash
00:52:33crash where you can't look away but
00:52:35but you don't want to look at it? it? In making his documentary, Sam
00:52:39Sam Green found there was nearly nearly always a desire on the part
00:52:41part of others to find out if there's there's a secret to longevity. The
00:52:45The elderly people, he observed, observed, had all kinds of answers
00:52:48answers for why they'd led a long long life. One woman stated she'd
00:52:52she'd live for a long time because because she'd stayed away from men.
00:52:55men. She also said her secret was was eating three raw eggs a day.
00:52:59day. Two, you know, so it's like like the media descends on these
00:53:02these people. Everybody asks them them what their secret is and they
00:53:06they say something and everybody everybody runs with that. This documentary
00:53:09documentary often shows that other other people, the outside world is
00:53:12is often much more intrigued by the the oldest person in the world than
00:53:16than the subjects who hold that title.
00:53:18title. But this film isn't just about about the very old. It's also about
00:53:22about life and death and events in in the filmmaker's own life the birth
00:53:26birth of a son and his own confrontation confrontation with a life threatening
00:53:29threatening illness. These things things started to creep into the
00:53:32the movie, so over time it becomes
00:53:34becomes a larger meditation, I hope,
00:53:37hope, about time and the mysteries mysteries of being alive and fate
00:53:40fate and all these big questions
00:53:43questions that we ask ourselves.
00:53:46ourselves. The last person I interviewed, interviewed, a Spanish woman named
00:53:49named Maria Branyas, she was very very funny. She even was making fun
00:53:53fun of me, which I love. But in.
00:53:55in. At a moment in the interview
00:53:57interview she said, you are young. young. What else? I was jobless.
00:54:01jobless. Now is the time to do good good works. What you were saying
00:54:05saying is you're young and you have
00:54:07have time, so use it. And I think
00:54:10think that's a beautiful thing to
00:54:15to appreciate. Over the last ten ten years, Sam Green has met many
00:54:18many of those who've held the title title of oldest person in the world.
00:54:21world. But there's been one holdout
00:54:23holdout the current title holder, holder, 117-year-old Ethel Caterham,
00:54:27Caterham, who lives in Surrey, just just outside London. She was born
00:54:31born in Edwardian times. She is the
00:54:33the first person in ten years who
00:54:37who has rebuffed my overtures. But But she did let King Charles visit
00:54:40visit her, didn't she? When I saw
00:54:43saw a video of her in King Charles
00:54:46Charles and I thought, Charles, not
00:54:47not me. You know she's British. She's
00:54:51She's the last Edwardian. So I guess guess she feels some allegiance to
00:54:54to the King. But you know, come on. on. I've been doing this for ten
00:54:57ten years. Even though this documentary documentary focuses on the very old
00:55:01old and very fragile. It makes the the point that there is much to learn
00:55:04learn from observing them and from from the filmmaker himself about
00:55:08about what it means to live a thoughtful
00:55:10thoughtful life. It is an unexpectedly
00:55:13unexpectedly life affirming film.
00:59:02I was here at the very first
00:59:04protest. The party had organised
00:59:07organised about a month ago, and and this is so much bigger. We've
00:59:10We've been driving towards the site site of this wildfire, but we've we've just stopped at the side of
00:59:14of the road here because of what what we saw out the window. Spain
00:59:18Spain is still burning. This man man has been pulled out successfully.
00:59:21successfully. It's taken a mammoth mammoth mammoth rescue effort. These
00:59:25These young rebels are heading back
00:59:26back to the front line to pull. There's
00:59:29There's a hunter base there which which these men have been trying
00:59:33trying to take for two years now. now. From the entrance of the pub
00:59:36pub this morning, you get very little little sense of the terrible scenes
00:59:39scenes that were witnessed here last last night. There. When the story
00:59:43story breaks. BBC News.
01:00:08MUSIC
01:00:17I'm Caitriona Perry in Washington and this is BBC World
01:00:20World News America. King Charles
01:00:23Charles urges leading tech bosses bosses developing AI to ensure our
01:00:26our humanity remains sacred, as he
01:00:29he warns of existential dangers.
01:00:33dangers. Those who have created these
01:00:35these technologies are now increasingly increasingly warning that AI risks
01:00:39risks developing darker capacities.
01:00:42capacities. Perhaps even to take
01:00:45take life. Possible war crimes by
01:00:48by the US that's the verdict of a
01:00:50a UN panel investigating two deadly deadly strikes in Iran this February.
01:00:54February. The US rejects that report
01:00:57report and Canada's Prime Minister Minister hails its