Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:05MUSIC
00:00:20I lost my sight completely when I
00:00:25I was eight years old. Clive, this this is a moment in the history of
00:00:29of the United States. My name is is Gary O'Donoghue and I'm the chief
00:00:32chief North America correspondent correspondent for the BBC. When I
00:00:34I started out in journalism, it was was still legal to discriminate against
00:00:38against disabled people. I was told told you can't be a reporter if you're
00:00:42you're blind. People really hadn't hadn't done what I was trying to
00:00:44to do before me. As you can see,
00:00:46see, we're on the ground behind our
00:00:49our car, which is not ideal, but but that's the shelter we have at
00:00:51at the moment. During the Trump assassination assassination attempt, I think my
00:00:55my blindness was an interesting factor factor because one of the central
00:00:58central interviews we got was with with the eyewitness, Greg. I learned
00:01:02learned afterwards look pretty striking. striking. Secret service is looking looking at us from the top of the
00:01:05the barn. I'm pointing at that roof. roof. You spend your whole life interpreting
00:01:09interpreting the world through what what you hear. Because I can't see. see. I just listen to what he said.
00:01:13said. I listened and I asked the the same questions over and over over again. He remained consistent.
00:01:17consistent. He sounded credible. credible. It was the thing that persuaded persuaded me. I accidentally hung
00:01:20hung up on the President of the United United States. Phone rings. Gary,
00:01:23Gary, I've got the President with with me. I'm handing you over now.
00:01:31Over now. Fortunately, they rang me back. He was in the Oval Oval Office. He fairly reflective
00:01:34reflective mood. I think we ended ended up with something different different to what you normally get get with those interviews that the
00:01:38the President does. It's listening listening and telling stories. That That is the core of what we do. We
00:01:41We get the experience of all people people we serve because we have people
00:01:44people of all kinds in this organisation.
00:01:52organisation. MUSIC
00:01:59MUSIC Now Now on BBC News, comprehensive coverage coverage of the day's important national
00:02:03national and international news stories
00:02:06stories Newsnight. The King and a
00:02:14a I now a right royal warning to
00:02:16to tech bosses in case AI can take
00:02:18take life. But will anyone act and
00:02:21and more Royal scandal as Princess Princess Diana's brother Earl Spencer
00:02:25Spencer makes fresh allegations about about the King, claiming after her
00:02:29her death he sounded giddily elated. elated. What
00:02:35Elated. What is the next move
00:02:37for the Palace?
00:02:53Good evening. Welcome to
00:02:55Thursday's Newsnight. We are live live from Broadcasting House now
00:02:59now and each weeknight for insight
00:03:01insight interviews, top takes and
00:03:03and guests. Hello. King Charles wants
00:03:07wants to talk about artificial intelligence,
00:03:10intelligence, but the royal news news is stubbornly all too human,
00:03:13human, with fresh claims tonight
00:03:15tonight about his reaction to the
00:03:17the death of Princess Diana in 1997.
00:03:191997. We'll hear tonight what's being being said, both about the King's
00:03:23King's Summit and about the King's
00:03:25King's past. Here are our guests.
00:03:28guests. Thangam Debbonaire, the Labour
00:03:30Labour peer and Laura Brown of the
00:03:32the spectator welcome both the King
00:03:36King warned of existential risks risks to humans. Addressing his summit
00:03:39summit at Dumfries House in Ayrshire. Ayrshire. It's a place he calls his
00:03:43his living laboratory for testing testing ideas about humanity's role
00:03:47role within nature. Big business business and big minds were there
00:03:50there today, including the boss of of the world's most valuable company,
00:03:54company, Nvidia, which makes the
00:03:56the chips which actually power AI. AI. The King said there needed to
00:04:00to be an urgent discussion on how
00:04:01how to balance the risks and rewards
00:04:05rewards of this technology. Those
00:04:07Those who have created these technologies
00:04:10technologies are now increasingly increasingly warning that AI risks
00:04:13risks developing darker capacities.
00:04:16capacities. Perhaps even to take
00:04:18take life. And in this regard, if
00:04:20if I may say so, there seems urgency
00:04:24urgency in adequately considering considering the existential dangers
00:04:28dangers of such technologies falling falling into the
00:04:35Wrong hands and being used in potentially catastrophic ways. The The King was right to call his summit
00:04:39summit on AI today, and he's right
00:04:41right to warn that it might seek
00:04:43seek to take human life. So says says Yoshua Bengio, the artificial
00:04:47artificial intelligence pioneer nicknamed nicknamed nicknamed the Godfather
00:04:51Godfather of AI. You can see that that I'm still human. A gaggle of
00:04:54of bosses whose firms are developing developing the technology have sounded
00:04:57sounded the alarm, including here here on Newsnight. Professor Bengio
00:05:01Bengio told me we'd reached a moment moment like the pandemic as he compared
00:05:04compared the governments of the world
00:05:06world acting fast on Covid. If you
00:05:10you look at events where governments governments have moved quickly, you
00:05:13you can think of wars, of course, course, but the pandemic is is an
00:05:16an interesting case where scientists scientists were raising the alarm
00:05:20alarm and when it became pretty obvious obvious that there was a real danger,
00:05:24danger, the governments moved very very quickly. And that's what we
00:05:27we need here. And do you think that
00:05:29that the King's summit expressed expressed this at the right rate
00:05:32rate of awareness that you're describing?
00:05:37describing? Well, it's not too late,
00:05:39late, in my opinion, to shift how
00:05:41how we do things, how the companies
00:05:45companies are regulated. And we should should have these global discussions.
00:05:47discussions. So I'm glad that the
00:05:49the King called one and the opportunity
00:05:52opportunity makes it possible to to have those discussions. And why
00:05:56why have so many rivals started speaking
00:05:59speaking in their own sort of arms arms race of concern within the last
00:06:02last few days? Do you know what explains explains the timing of people who
00:06:05who are meant to be competing against
00:06:08against each other, agreeing on a
00:06:10a message of warning. Because they're
00:06:14they're scared? There's another reason.
00:06:17reason. You know, if governments
00:06:20governments don't put rules that that all the companies, at least
00:06:24least at that level of AI capability,
00:06:26capability, all the companies will
00:06:29will have to follow, there is a possibility
00:06:32possibility that one of the companies companies would not follow the rules
00:06:36rules and try to, you know, race
00:06:38race against the others. So they
00:06:40they have an interest in making sure
00:06:43sure that the rules apply to all
00:06:46all the companies. I just wonder
00:06:47wonder what about all the countries? countries? Do you agree that China
00:06:52China is just as willing to let third
00:06:54third party agents into its laboratories laboratories with badges to go in
00:06:58in with laptops to look at Chinese
00:07:00Chinese AI technology, as has been
00:07:02been suggested? So I believe that
00:07:06that it's an interest of China as as well as the US and other countries
00:07:10countries to make sure we avoid catastrophic
00:07:14catastrophic experiments and deployments.
00:07:16deployments. Now it's also understandable understandable from what I hear that
00:07:20that the Chinese are saying, that that the risks currently are mostly
00:07:23mostly in the hands of American companies,
00:07:27companies, but I also believe that
00:07:31that there should be international international diplomatic effort to
00:07:32to make sure, just like we did for for nuclear weapons, to make sure
00:07:36sure we can manage those risks. And And what do you make of the fact fact that one of the key players
00:07:40players in this President Trump of of the United States has called warnings
00:07:44warnings about AI a hoax? Well, the
00:07:49the scientific facts that have been
00:07:51been observed across, you know, multiple
00:07:55multiple events, including, by the
00:07:57the way, by the great UK AI Security
00:08:01Security Institute. So very much much independently of the American
00:08:04American companies. Those facts are
00:08:06are undeniable. And eventually reality,
00:08:09reality, you know, catches whatever
00:08:11whatever claims one wants to make, make, just like it is happening with
00:08:15with climate. It's just that in the the case of AI, it's much faster.
00:08:18faster. But if you had the President President in face time, what would
00:08:21would you tell the US President.
00:08:26President. That he has a chance to to become a hero and maybe even get
00:08:29get a Nobel Prize peace Prize by
00:08:32by actually doing what is right here
00:08:34here and starting the serious conversations conversations with China on this
00:08:38this so that we can all avoid catastrophic catastrophic outcomes. Because President
00:08:41President Xi is heading to Washington. Washington. So would you say this
00:08:44this is an historic moment in human human history? The meeting of the
00:08:47the two of them can be grasped or
00:08:49or dropped. Yes there is. There is
00:08:53is an opportunity here. I hope they
00:08:55they take it. So is it just possible
00:08:57possible in the 250th anniversary anniversary of the Republic that
00:09:01that the King, the descendant of
00:09:03of George the Third, has got a stronger
00:09:05stronger grasp on AI than the current
00:09:09current President of the United States. States. I won't comment on this.
00:09:11this. Will you deny that that looks looks that it could be the case to
00:09:15to some humans? I understand that.
00:09:18that. You understand the
00:09:23question. I understand that those those points of views, of course.
00:09:25course. And do you share them? I
00:09:30I won't comment. Do you still think
00:09:32think the human's going to get there
00:09:34there over the machine? I hope so,
00:09:38so, but let me tell you something
00:09:39something important. We should not
00:09:43not feel despair. And, you know, know, powerless because we do have
00:09:47have agency right now. It is not
00:09:49not too late. It's a matter of global
00:09:53global awareness. This is how the the world is going to like, go back
00:09:56back on a safe trajectory where, where, by the way, AI could be used
00:10:00used for good. It's not like AI or
00:10:02or no AI, it's just that we have have to do it at a pace where we
00:10:06we can control the risks and we can can reap the benefits. Thank you
00:10:10you for talking to us. You're welcome.
00:10:14welcome. That's Yoshua Bengio. Thank
00:10:17Thank the Kings. Doing something. something. Is the King doing the the right thing? Yes, because the
00:10:21the King is using his convening power
00:10:24power and the King has been very very thoughtful about how he's used used that convening power in the
00:10:28the past as well. He's been criticised criticised for it. He sounded alarms
00:10:31alarms about climate change some some time ago and was criticised
00:10:35criticised at the time. And I think think at the moment what he's doing
00:10:37doing is picking up on another world world crisis moment where he can
00:10:41can do something useful by bringing bringing people together. He shouldn't shouldn't be making decisions and
00:10:45and he isn't making decisions. He's He's not trying to get. He's not not the King is not going to set
00:10:49set the regulations, but he is bringing bringing people together to make
00:10:52make sure that that conversation conversation is happening and at at a high level. And where do you
00:10:56you think the UK is generally. We've We've spoken about the King. Where's
00:11:00Where's the UK in regulating or leading leading the discussion about AI?
00:11:04AI? Well the UK doesn't really get get to talk about regulating AI because
00:11:07because he doesn't really have any any AI on a fundamental level. We
00:11:10We don't have any frontier Labs. Labs. Those are the labs that are
00:11:13are making the big models like OpenAI,
00:11:16OpenAI, Anthropic, Claude, ChatGPT ChatGPT and we have almost no sovereign
00:11:19sovereign compute power. So our capacity capacity to drive forward is very
00:11:22very limited and therefore our capacity capacity to negotiate with countries countries with companies is equally
00:11:26equally limited. But I thought what what was one of the things that was
00:11:29was interesting is the big companies companies were represented there there today. You know, Google DeepMind
00:11:32DeepMind and Anthropic and so forth forth and OpenAI. But it was actually
00:11:36actually Mustafa Suleyman who was was on another BBC outlet this morning morning on the Today Programme, and
00:11:40and he had written an essay. Never Never heard of it, I know, and but
00:11:43but he made a really, really interesting interesting point, which is planes,
00:11:47planes, if you don't have rules, rules, if you don't have air traffic traffic control, planes fly into
00:11:50into each other. But we still like like planes, but we have rules and
00:11:53and we accept them. And I think that
00:11:55that discussion now needs to happen happen urgently about how we regulate
00:11:59regulate and what our role might might be in it, as well as the discussion
00:12:02discussion about sovereign capability. I agree with that principle. principle. I mean, if there was a
00:12:06a magic pause button, I'm getting getting scared enough. I think it it would be nice to press. But what
00:12:10what I'm hearing from people who who work in AI is there might not
00:12:12not be. The problem with regulation regulation is the main proposal we're
00:12:15we're seeing from AI company bosses
00:12:18bosses is you want third party testing
00:12:20testing of models, but AI, new models models of AI are getting so clever.
00:12:24clever. They're getting what you you call sort of evaluation awareness. awareness. This is what you saw with
00:12:27with the Hugging Face incident because because a chatbot wanted to pass
00:12:31pass an evaluation. It hacked into into the evaluating software to find
00:12:34find out the answers. I fear therefore therefore that we may actually be be at a point where regulation is
00:12:38is extremely difficult to execute execute properly. Because the thing
00:12:40thing is about the UK's role in all all of this Anthropic. One of their
00:12:44their latest models wasn't run through
00:12:47through the UK security Agency's Agency's system. The refused access.
00:12:50access. It just looks like we're we're not really at the table. What
00:12:54What does it mean if no one else
00:12:56else is regulating AI, we rely on on hereditary hereditary monarch
00:13:00monarch to try and the Pope and the the Pope. The Pope. We'll get to
00:13:03to the Pope. But if we've got the the King and the Pope, that's the
00:13:06the human that is the human cry against against the machine. Laura. I think
00:13:10think this decision by Anthropic Anthropic not to let UK SC into the
00:13:14the rooms, into looking at the models, models, shows that we've lost our
00:13:17our way in the AI race. Because there
00:13:20there is a way actually to control control AI, which I don't think I
00:13:24I know why I'm the only one to know know it. It's. The chips. Are they.
00:13:27they. Well, the country that makes makes the largest one Nvidia was
00:13:31was there in the room. Now the chip chip is the brain of the AI Thangam
00:13:35Thangam and that the Chinese do not
00:13:37not have the same manufacturing capabilities. capabilities. So no, no, let me ask
00:13:40ask you about the Pope. It was you
00:13:42you who raised it. One of the attendees attendees was there today and we're
00:13:46we're going to we can listen to what
00:13:47what he's been telling Victoria's
00:13:50Victoria's father, Paolo Benanti.
00:13:52Benanti. He's Pope Leo XIV official official adviser on AI. Victoria
00:13:55Victoria spoke to him ahead of the the summit and asked how the Pope
00:13:59Pope could persuade the American American President to listen to the
00:14:02the warnings on AI. Well, he. Didn't
00:14:05Didn't say that AI is not dangerous, dangerous, he said in the same quoting
00:14:09quoting passages. It's enough myself
00:14:12myself to control AI could be true.
00:14:15true. But also, you know, the idea idea that China is there and China
00:14:19China is another player suggest that that probably not everything is under
00:14:23under his own control. And sometimes
00:14:25sometimes it it is much more wise wise to find an international agreement
00:14:29agreement instead of having an international
00:14:32international competition. So would would would Pope Leo stand up to
00:14:34to Donald Trump and say this to him.
00:14:37him. First duty of the Pope is simple
00:14:39simple to speak to all good, willing
00:14:42willing people around the world to to try to resonate. The reason of
00:14:46of finding an agreement for the global
00:14:50global good and then practical way way to make it work well, we need
00:14:53need everyone and we need also politicians politicians and all other people
00:14:57people with their competence in society. society. It's not something that
00:14:59that the Pope alone can do. Sure, Sure, but would the Pope be prepared
00:15:03prepared to raise this with President President Trump? From what we see
00:15:06see in the past, in the past month, month, especially on the topic like
00:15:10like the war and AI development, development, the Pope has not fear
00:15:13fear to say really clearly what are
00:15:15are the values at stake and what
00:15:18what is his own perspective on them
00:15:21them without having any fear to face
00:15:23face opposition on people and or or in government. So there we are,
00:15:27are, the Pope and the King and President President Trump. Will President Trump
00:15:30Trump blink? President Trump has has said, I think that AI fears are
00:15:34are a hoax, which would imply that that he's pretty hostile to regulation. regulation. But let's not forget
00:15:38forget that he's not the only player player here. We've also got the Chinese
00:15:40Chinese models, a very small Chinese Chinese company called moonshot grew
00:15:44grew hugely in just sort of a few few years now has a model called called Kimi three, which is about
00:15:48about three months behind the most most advanced American model. So So it's not just Trump you want to
00:15:51to get on board, it's also China. China. If you want to slow things things down. But Trump did say I
00:15:55I think the second half of the quote quote from Trump is, but we're fine
00:15:58fine because we've got a very intelligent intelligent president. And you know,
00:16:01know, I mean, I'm not going to comment comment on intelligence of presidents,
00:16:04presidents, but I am just going to to observe. A great deal that you're.
00:16:07you're. Saying more. I what I am am commenting on though, is, is the
00:16:11the role of politicians. Like it it would be really dangerous to overestimate
00:16:14overestimate your role as a politician. politician. OK, but let's not overestimate
00:16:17overestimate the importance of the the meeting between XI and Trump. Trump. That matters. That seriously
00:16:21seriously matters. It's next Thursday. Thursday. Well, I'm glad about that
00:16:24that because apart from anything anything else, China also has the the rare earths and the rare earths
00:16:28earths that we need in order to put put into the various components that
00:16:31that we need to power the AI. So So that's also really important.
00:16:34important. And so there's a considerable considerable element of power play
00:16:38play along the supply chain as well. well. Because also if you read Donald
00:16:41Donald Trump's The Art of the deal, deal, you don't say in advance of
00:16:44of President Xi coming, we're going going to do a deal with XI, you.
00:16:47you. Need to do that though. Doesn't Doesn't he know? But well, we're we're not going to endlessly go on
00:16:51on about Donald Trump. But do you you think do you think there could
00:16:53could be a moment between China and and the US next week? Do you think
00:16:57think ruling out any kind of deal
00:17:00deal is to previous. You can't ever ever rule anything out with Trump.
00:17:04Trump. He's not a predictable man. man. He's not a man that tells you you what he's about to do. So it's
00:17:08it's entirely possible. The best best advice I ever got about Trump Trump as a journalist is take him.
00:17:11him. Don't ever take him literally, literally, but always take him seriously. seriously. And I think he you know,
00:17:15know, China doesn't want to destroy destroy the world with AI. It's likely likely they're going to try and work
00:17:19work together on this issue. The The rare earths will be very valuable.
00:17:21valuable. OK. And let me ask you
00:17:23you both to dare to dream about something something optimistic, which I heard
00:17:27heard from one of the godfathers godfathers of AI, that there are
00:17:29are quite a few godfathers, but there
00:17:32there is agency. There is human co-operation, co-operation, which has happened
00:17:35happened in very bleak circumstances circumstances before, including nuclear
00:17:38nuclear proliferation. Do we dare dare to dream that the message the
00:17:40the penny has dropped in the human human brain about the artificial
00:17:44artificial one? We dare to dream dream that it's dropped. What we
00:17:47we then need to do with urgency, urgency, in my view, is actually actually get on with the business
00:17:50business of sorting out. Are we going going to have a framework of global global regulation? Will anyone. The
00:17:54The next step. We asked at the top top of the programme Will anyone anyone act? What's the answer? Well,
00:17:57Well, I think the King, by convening, convening, has shown the way and
00:18:00and I think the Pope by by issuing
00:18:03issuing his encyclical has also demonstrated demonstrated great leaders need to
00:18:07to bring people together and work work out what the next step is. I I think we're still a long way off.
00:18:11off. This is something being done done by companies across the world. world. International agreements are
00:18:14are very difficult and also we don't don't actually know what sort of of regulations we want at this stage.
00:18:18stage. OK. But we need to hurry up. up. Agreed. Are you talking to me?
00:18:21me? No. I do actually. A fresh shadow
00:18:25shadow has been cast on the King's
00:18:26King's best efforts to lead a national
00:18:29national conversation from published published claims about him. And they
00:18:32they are these. The published claims
00:18:34claims say he was elated at the death
00:18:36death of Diana, Princess of Wales,
00:18:38Wales, in 1997. Family troubles have
00:18:41have persisted throughout his short short Reign over his brother Andrew,
00:18:44Andrew, his son Harry and now his his one time brother in law Charles
00:18:47Charles Spencer. The Earl has written written a book about which you'll
00:18:50you'll know it's about his sister. sister. It's being serialised in
00:18:52in the Daily Mail. Here's the Mail's Mail's latest front page headline
00:18:56headline Queen offered to restore
00:18:58restore Diana's HRH after she died. died. Now, in the latest excerpt
00:19:02excerpt within the paper, he describes describes the phone call between
00:19:05between him and the then Prince Charles. Charles. Shortly after Diana had
00:19:08had been killed in a road crash in
00:19:10in Paris. Charles, he writes, sounded
00:19:13sounded giddily elated like a lottery lottery winner. I remember thinking
00:19:16thinking at the time, Earl Spencer Spencer goes on, he let me know he
00:19:20he had informed William and Harry Harry of their mother's death first
00:19:22first thing that morning in their their bedrooms at Balmoral. It all
00:19:26all sounded strangely matter of fact, fact, given the enormity of the disaster.
00:19:30disaster. Looking back now, I suspect suspect the prince's first reaction
00:19:33reaction must have been to think think more of how this event might
00:19:35might free him to marry the woman woman he loved rather than appreciating
00:19:39appreciating the loss of one he did
00:19:43did not. And this is what Buckingham Buckingham Palace said in its recent
00:19:45recent response, which we read to to you yesterday. While we do not
00:19:49not comment on books as a matter matter of principle, His Majesty Majesty is mindful that the pain
00:19:53pain of fraternal grief can cloud cloud reason, affect judgement and
00:19:56and colour memory in ways others others do not recognise. Even many
00:20:00many years after such a loss. Dickie
00:20:03Dickie Arbiter, our guest, knew Diana Diana for 17 years. He was press
00:20:07press secretary at the palace at at the time of the car crash which
00:20:10which killed the princess. He worked worked on her funeral a few days
00:20:14days later. Welcome. Thank you. What
00:20:16What do you make of the King being
00:20:19being at the time the prince giddy
00:20:23giddy at the elated? It's not. It's It's not in his character. It's not.
00:20:26not. It's not his speak. He doesn't doesn't think like that. He was devastated
00:20:30devastated at the time. And you could could see that in his body language
00:20:33language when he came back to London London on Thursday with his sons
00:20:37sons to look at the floral tributes tributes in Kensington Gardens, you
00:20:40you could even see it on the Sunday Sunday when the family went to church
00:20:43church and stopped outside the gates gates of Balmoral to have a look
00:20:46look at the floral tributes there. there. The man was devastated. There's
00:20:49There's no way he could have ever ever said anything like that. Charles
00:20:52Charles Spencer is just talking hogwash.
00:20:55hogwash. But we do know that he went
00:20:57went on to marry Camilla. That was
00:21:00was a long time after that was in
00:21:03in 2005. But it's not wrong to say, say, he said, looking back. He. He
00:21:07He was to think more about how it it might free him to marry the woman woman he loved rather than appreciating
00:21:11appreciating the loss of one. He He did not. That is his own thought. thought. That is. That is speculation.
00:21:15speculation. He doesn't know that that he didn't see Charles until
00:21:18until he came down and walked behind
00:21:21behind the coffin on the Saturday.
00:21:22Saturday. He hadn't seen him until
00:21:25until then and suggesting that it
00:21:27it freed Charles up to marry Camilla. Camilla. They were divorced, Charles
00:21:31Charles and Diana so Charles could could marry Camilla at any time.
00:21:34time. The fact that Diana died was
00:21:37was a very sad occasion. You mentioned mentioned the funeral because it's
00:21:40it's also said the Prince Charles Charles said, I gather you've got
00:21:44got a problem with the funeral arrangements. arrangements. I gather you don't
00:21:47don't want William and Harry to walk walk behind Diana's coffin? Well,
00:21:50Well, of course not, sir, says the the excerpt, Diana would never have
00:21:53have wanted that. He didn't know
00:21:55know what Diana wanted. They they
00:21:58they had a sort of a bit of animosity animosity between the two of them.
00:22:02them. Diana wanted a bolthole on
00:22:05on the awful bus stop in. In 93 she
00:22:08she wanted to go to garden House. House. Garden House wasn't available available because one of his workers
00:22:12workers was living there. It was was too close to the road. Spencer Spencer was worried about security,
00:22:16security, was worried about media media intrusion and Diana didn't
00:22:18didn't speak to him for over a year.
00:22:21year. That's how upset she was. She She was offered something else on
00:22:24on the estate, but she didn't want want it. OK. I mean, I'm sure we'll
00:22:27we'll hear a lot from the interviews interviews and I don't know about about the specifics of that, but
00:22:30but I wonder what the specifics are are about the funeral. Do you think
00:22:33think he was right to have fears fears for those young boys walking
00:22:37walking behind the coffin? I think think any parent would have fears. fears. But the boys. I think it was
00:22:41was the uncle who did. The excerpt excerpt says that the father wanted
00:22:44wanted them to walk and the uncle uncle did not. Actually, it was Prince
00:22:47Prince Philip who asked them and and suggested that they walked. Do
00:22:50Do you. Think it was a mistake? I I don't think it was a mistake. I
00:22:53I think if they hadn't walked in in later life they would have regretted
00:22:56regretted it. Harry has dwelt on
00:22:58on that ever since that day and he
00:23:00he dwells on it now. And he will
00:23:03will continue dwelling on it. But
00:23:05But I think in terms of paying tribute
00:23:08tribute to your mother, a public public tribute, that was the way
00:23:10way to do it. Now, Dickie, you worked worked very closely with the man
00:23:13man who is now King. How will he
00:23:16he be taking every time he attempts attempts to be the King, something
00:23:20something comes up from the brother, brother, the son or the brother in
00:23:23in law. How will that be affecting affecting King Charles? He'll be
00:23:27be exasperated, but he'll get on on with the job. I mean, today he
00:23:30he was up at Dumfries House as the
00:23:33the Baroness said, he's he's a classic
00:23:37classic catalyst of bringing people people together, bringing the right
00:23:40right people together. He just carried carried on with work. But yes, it
00:23:44it will trouble him because this
00:23:45this book is going to come out. It's
00:23:48It's going to be serialised and what what more is going to be revealed?
00:23:52revealed? It's all one man's view.
00:23:55view. It's his truth. Let's turn turn to what you all think. And Dick,
00:23:59Dick, it's a great honour to hear hear from you. We haven't seen you
00:24:02you on the programme. Certainly not not what I've been here. But when
00:24:05when Dickie was in charge it was. was. Never complained, never explained.
00:24:09explained. And now the. Is the Palace Palace strategy, right, Thangam?
00:24:12Thangam? I think that's for them them to say. Well, you're the guest
00:24:15guest on the sofa. I am the guest
00:24:17guest on the sofa and I my view is
00:24:20is that they're entitled to work work out for themselves how to do
00:24:23do the job of being royals. It's It's a different time. That's up
00:24:26up to them. I think we've just been been discussing if AI is going to
00:24:28to take us all out, and now we're we're talking about something that that may or may not have happened
00:24:32happened on a phone call 29 years years ago. We're never going to know know the answer. It's clear that
00:24:36that Earl Spencer really hates Charles Charles is motivated by that. But
00:24:38But I think if I were the Palace, Palace, I would have stayed quiet
00:24:41quiet and not given the story the the dignity. I think they were right right in doing what they did. It
00:24:44It was really a classic case of saying
00:24:48saying it varies. I think. Recollections
00:24:52Recollections vary and that does does vary. But this is a it's a private
00:24:55private family tragedy and up and and down the country at the moment moment people are worried about any
00:24:59any number of things. I'm afraid afraid to say. Probably none of them
00:25:01them are this. I think there's an
00:25:03an awful lot of raking over Diana's
00:25:07Diana's memory of terrible tragedy. tragedy. But right now here we are are when people are worried about
00:25:11about how they're going to pay their their bills and whether AI is going
00:25:13going to destroy their jobs or end end the world, those feel like really
00:25:16really big things to be worried about. about. Why is the man raking it up
00:25:20up now, 29 years after the event? event? Why not the 25th anniversary?
00:25:23anniversary? Why not the 20th anniversary? anniversary? Why just keep quiet
00:25:25quiet altogether? Let me, let me me link my questions together about
00:25:28about you. Wish this could be a private private affair. Let me just show
00:25:31show you tomorrow's papers, starting starting with the mail I've already already mentioned their headline.
00:25:34headline. We'll start with the mirror
00:25:37mirror war of words. Earl's astonishing
00:25:40astonishing claims alleges Charles Charles was like a lottery winner.
00:25:42winner. This is the mirror to the
00:25:44the eye. Palace on the defensive
00:25:46defensive after Earl's new claims
00:25:48claims against the King to the Daily Daily Express. What's their front
00:25:52front page? Charles emphatic we respect
00:25:56respect Diana's memory, the times,
00:25:57times, what's on their front page? page? Charles was elated after Diana
00:26:01Diana died. So this is why I'm asking.
00:26:04asking. It's not a private affair,
00:26:07affair, is it? It is a private affair, affair, but it's being made public,
00:26:10public, being made public by Spencer.
00:26:13Spencer. And what is quite interesting interesting is that Spencer went
00:26:15went on Larry King live on CNN about
00:26:20about 88 or 90 8 or 99, in which which he said he, Charles travelled
00:26:23travelled up on the train with them them to Althorp for the interment
00:26:26interment of Diana. He said he was
00:26:28was very polite. He was very kind
00:26:31kind and if. If somebody is troubled troubled by what your former brother
00:26:34brother in law has said a week earlier,
00:26:37earlier, you wouldn't go on air and and say things like that. What should
00:26:40should the palace reaction be now? now? What should the strategy be?
00:26:43be? Dickie? They said what they are
00:26:46are going to say. So leave it. To To leave it. Yes, it's now. The book
00:26:49book hasn't even come out. No, it's it's now for people to make up their
00:26:52their minds. All of the shocking shocking bits will be in the serialisation
00:26:55serialisation and this story I think think will start to fizzle out. And And if the palace stay quiet, I imagine
00:26:59imagine they'll see this through through without much problem. And And meanwhile people are trying to
00:27:03to work out how they're going to to pay the bills this winter and
00:27:05and whether or not climate crisis crisis is as bad as we fear. And
00:27:09And I think it is. And whether or or not AI is going to end the world,
00:27:13world, there's quite a lot to think think about. Can I wrap it up together?
00:27:16together? When we think how you've you've all used your time tonight
00:27:19tonight for the benefit of our viewers, viewers, the King's trying to King
00:27:23King with his AI summit and then then up comes the brother. Up comes
00:27:26comes the sun, up comes the brother brother in law. Do you think the
00:27:30the public are going to side with with the King when they. After these
00:27:34these repeated blows these noises noises off as he tries to. To be
00:27:37be the monarch. The public are being being pummelled by all sorts of things.
00:27:41things. They're being pummelled by by the Sussexes, they're being pummelled
00:27:44pummelled by now. Spencer. And they they really want to get on with their
00:27:48their own lives as Baroness says, says, they've got to get on with
00:27:52with their own lives. They've got got bills to pay, they've got lives
00:27:55lives to live. They will see this this for what it is. They will make
00:27:59make up their own minds. Meanwhile
00:28:00Meanwhile the palace must stay
00:28:04strong. Yeah, I think people forget forget there was a lot of emotion emotion about Diana's death. It's It's understandable. But it was 29
00:28:0729 years ago. You've got a whole whole generation now who don't remember remember Diana and I think this story
00:28:11story being played out on the front front page of every paper just seems seems quite strange to people. You
00:28:15You think, oh, we've got this new new Prime Minister, what on earth earth is he going to do? He's not
00:28:19not saying I'd like to hear about about that, please. And I imagine imagine there'll be fatigue of this
00:28:23this story quite quickly. I think
00:28:26think as Laura said, it's 29 years years ago, those of us who were around
00:28:29around at that time do remember it it very well. But we also know that
00:28:32that there was private grief and and private tragedy. As the palace
00:28:34palace has said in their statement. statement. And we really have big
00:28:37big problems. I would feel for the the King, as you said, he was trying
00:28:40trying to King today and that I hope hope it doesn't get lost. I do feel
00:28:44feel that my verb will never be repeated, repeated, but thank you. We all we
00:28:48we thank you all very much indeed. indeed. Do do come back. Here are
00:28:52are our contact details. You can can shout at the television or you
00:28:56you can insist on sending us a message message in capitals and we'll be
00:28:59be sure to read that we go now. Matt's
00:29:02Matt's here for our brand new prime prime time Friday News night tomorrow
00:29:05tomorrow live at seven. We're going
00:29:06going to bring you more interviews
00:29:10interviews like these. And we're
00:29:13we're live in 10s nine eight 76564321.
00:29:2376564321. On it. Good evening. Hello.
00:29:26Hello. Does Andy Burnham have eyes eyes on this house? It isn't a good
00:29:30good idea to keep changing Prime Prime Ministers. Prime Minister Andy
00:29:33Andy Burnham has arrived. Can you you remind us what the fiscal rules
00:29:36rules are? You know, you find your your groove, you try different things.
00:29:39things. Some things work and some some things don't work. I think we
00:29:43we should take action. Action? Like Like what. If I'd done it deliberately
00:29:46deliberately and this had been a a misjudgement, I would absolutely. absolutely. But when we make mistakes,
00:29:49mistakes, whether it's intentional intentional or not, we say sorry
00:29:53sorry I'm going for a little walk. walk. Nick. Well, a little walk to to run the country. Do you think
00:29:57think it would happen this quickly? quickly? No, not at all. Could you
00:30:00you live on £70 a week? Absolutely Absolutely not, Chancellor. I do
00:30:03do not think it is a moral thing thing for you to do. The system as
00:30:07as it's now evolved is completely completely indefensible. AI is going
00:30:10going to mean that some jobs do disappear. disappear. Will it be Harris or will
00:30:13will it be Trump? The Democrats messed messed it up. Well we lost. So we
00:30:17we have to not upset Donald Trump. We have to be an ally to Donald
00:30:21Donald Trump. An ally. Does that that mean. Allies don't betray. Our
00:30:24Our relationship with the United United States is not one of mutual
00:30:27mutual affection. It's a deal. We
00:30:29We still. Have a special relationship. Well, it's not that
00:30:32that special, is it? If you impose impose 10% tariffs. President Trump
00:30:35Trump probably thinks that we in in Canada will cave in. We are going
00:30:38going to stand up to a bully. We're We're not going to back down. Come
00:30:42Come President Trump trust President President Putin. Well, they do have
00:30:46have trust already. He would wipe
00:30:48wipe out an entire civilisation of
00:30:50of people. That is insanity. There's
00:30:55There's a white flash. You saw every
00:30:59every bone, every