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00:00:01MUSIC
00:00:13Live from London. This is BBC
00:00:16News. German Chancellor Friedrich Friedrich Merz is facing growing
00:00:19growing political pressure as local local elections have taken place
00:00:22place in two German states. The polls polls have just closed. We'll bring
00:00:26bring you the first exit polls shortly
00:00:29shortly Earl Spencer tells the BBC, BBC, writing his book about his sister,
00:00:33sister, the late Princess Diana was was his duty as an eyewitness to
00:00:36to history. He's defended claims
00:00:37claims he's made about King Charles.
00:00:41Charles. I'm reporting every word word in this book. I report exactly
00:00:44exactly as I saw it and felt it at
00:00:46at the time, and I was surprised
00:00:49surprised at the giddiness of his his tone. That's what I'm recording
00:00:52recording there. At least two people people are killed in the Moscow region
00:00:56region after a massive Ukrainian Ukrainian drone attack overnight. overnight. Russia says it's an attempt
00:00:59attempt to disrupt the country's country's parliamentary elections.
00:01:03elections. Musician Ed Sheeran's Sheeran's apologised to fans for for what he calls mistakes. It's
00:01:06It's as he performs for the first first time since one of his opening
00:01:10opening acts, Macklemore was dropped dropped for making pro-Palestinian
00:01:14pro-Palestinian remarks on stage. stage. This week. The criticism was was about something much more important
00:01:18important and I've had to take and and make difficult decisions and
00:01:21and I am making mistakes and I'm
00:01:24I'm so, so sorry.
00:01:36Hello, I'm Rajini Vaidyanathan. Polls have just closed in Germany
00:01:39Germany in two elections, which could
00:01:41could further weaken Chancellor Friedrich
00:01:44Friedrich Mertz's position. His Christian Christian Democratic Union, the CDU
00:01:47CDU party, is at risk of damaging
00:01:50damaging defeats. The two races are
00:01:52are as follows one in the capital,
00:01:54capital, Berlin, another in the Mecklenburg-Western
00:01:58Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania region. region. Chancellor Merkel has already already cancelled plans to attend
00:02:01attend the UN General Assembly in in New York later this week. It's
00:02:04It's a speculation grows about his
00:02:07his future. Will these latest elections
00:02:09elections come after the far right right Alternative fur Deutschland
00:02:12Deutschland party? AfD won a major
00:02:15major victory in the state of Saxony-Anhalt.
00:02:17Saxony-Anhalt. Two weeks ago, as
00:02:19as the CDU saw its vote halved. Then,
00:02:23Then, well, we have some of the early
00:02:25early exit poll results in already.
00:02:28already. I'm reading now that the
00:02:30the AfD is projected to win 37% of
00:02:34of the vote in Mecklenburg-Western
00:02:38Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania state
00:02:39state election. And the centre left
00:02:43left SPD party is projected to win
00:02:48win 35.5% there. And at the moment,
00:02:52moment, of course, we are still waiting waiting to hear what the exit polls
00:02:55polls for Berlin say. I'm joined
00:02:58joined now by author and broadcaster
00:03:00broadcaster John Kampfner, who joins joins us from Berlin. We're just
00:03:03just seeing some of the early exit exit polls coming in to us. And of
00:03:06of course, we're going to stay across
00:03:09across those. But this is potentially
00:03:12potentially a very damaging night
00:03:14night for Chancellor Merz. Good evening
00:03:17evening Regina. Yes it is. And the
00:03:19the Berlin exit polls are in as well.
00:03:21well. And exit polls in Germany have
00:03:24have a pretty good record plus or or minus a few percent. Either way
00:03:28way of being pretty accurate, as
00:03:30as you say for Chancellor. Merz.
00:03:33Merz. It's pretty disastrous. Evening.
00:03:36Evening. He may well just his party, party, his conservative Christian
00:03:40Christian Democrats may just scrape
00:03:42scrape in to the parliament in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern,
00:03:45Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, a small state state in East Germany, there is a
00:03:48a threshold of 5% you have to get, get, which was originally designed
00:03:52designed to keep extremists out. out. And now it may well keep out
00:03:55out the Conservative Party. And that that has never happened before. This
00:03:59This is its lowest result since the the formation of the Federal Republic
00:04:03Republic at the end of the Second
00:04:04Second World War. If he does go below
00:04:07below the 5%, then the knives will will really be out. And there are
00:04:11are a series of meetings this evening
00:04:14evening and tomorrow and into Tuesday
00:04:17Tuesday for his party and all the the parties. But overall, it must
00:04:20must be said that for the AfD you
00:04:21you say only one could say only 37%
00:04:2637% compared to the 4344 it got two two weeks ago in Saxony-Anhalt. So
00:04:29So a good result for them. But the the Social Democrats have held up
00:04:33up pretty well, just being a little little bit under them. And they are
00:04:36are almost certainly going to run
00:04:38run the state in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern Mecklenburg-Vorpommern with some
00:04:41some of the other parties. And in
00:04:43in Berlin, the left wing party, a
00:04:47a sort of corbynite British Greens
00:04:49Greens type party has emerged on on top and they're likely to run
00:04:53run it with other left wing parties, parties, the Social Democrats and
00:04:56and the Greens. So a mixed bag, but
00:04:58but the one consistent point is pretty pretty awful for Chancellor Merkel.
00:05:02Merkel. Indeed, John, I mean on one one hand you've got a far left party
00:05:06party Die Linke as you were describing
00:05:08describing then predicted to do really
00:05:11really well. On the other hand, in
00:05:13in the other race that we're watching, watching, Mecklenburg, you've got
00:05:16got the far right predicted to do do really well. That's an interesting
00:05:20interesting picture, isn't it? Yes, Yes, but it's a mixed picture as
00:05:23as well because the Social Democrats Democrats are the sort of classic
00:05:26classic Labour Party type party which which has been written off pretty pretty much everywhere. It's the
00:05:29the junior partner in this unhappy unhappy government. And it used to
00:05:33to be a really important party and
00:05:36and it's haemorrhaging voters, working working class voters. It's its voter
00:05:39voter base. It's increasingly old,
00:05:43old, but it's getting it's done pretty pretty darned well in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern
00:05:45Mecklenburg-Vorpommern for appointment
00:05:48appointment to get 35, 36% of the the vote, according to these projections.
00:05:52projections. One always needs to to be a little bit cautious about
00:05:54about projections, and that's because because of a particular local regional
00:05:58regional leader there. And she has has done pretty well. Manuela Schwesig
00:06:02Schwesig that's a name that listeners
00:06:04listeners and viewers might hear hear about more in the future. She
00:06:08She could well emerge being their their candidate for chancellor next
00:06:12next time around. So it is mixed.
00:06:14mixed. The AfD continue to do well,
00:06:17well, but it isn't that great sort sort of panic stations that it was
00:06:20was two weeks ago in Saxony-Anhalt. Saxony-Anhalt. OK. John Kampfner,
00:06:23Kampfner, thank you very much for for the moment. Of course, we're we're continuing to digest those
00:06:27those exit polls as they come in in and as we continue to do that
00:06:31that digesting, let's go live to
00:06:33to our correspondent in Berlin, Jessica
00:06:36Jessica Parker. Jessica, we were were talking there about those two
00:06:39two very different results. Take Take us through your analysis of
00:06:41of what we know so far. Yeah. I mean,
00:06:45mean, just to say I'm at the kind kind of election night gathering
00:06:49gathering in Berlin for the conservative conservative CDU party Chancellor
00:06:52Chancellor Friedrich Mertz's party. party. And as you can probably hear,
00:06:55hear, the atmosphere is pretty flat
00:06:58flat as those initial projected results
00:07:00results were read out. There was was no cheering here. People are
00:07:04are just sort of digesting the result.
00:07:05result. But as we were just hearing.
00:07:08hearing. So according to a ZDF projection projection in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, the northeastern
00:07:12northeastern state where I've been been the last couple of days, CDU
00:07:16CDU hovering around the 5% mark, mark, which puts it in danger potentially
00:07:19potentially of not entering parliament. parliament. You have to get 5% or
00:07:22or over in order to enter the parliament. parliament. That would be catastrophic.
00:07:26catastrophic. But that's one exit exit poll at the moment with the
00:07:30the AfD apparently topping the poll
00:07:31poll just above the centre left SPD SPD in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. So
00:07:35So a tight race there between the the AfD and the SPD. But it looks
00:07:39looks like the AfD might come out
00:07:40out on top. And then here in Berlin Berlin as has been expected, although
00:07:44although maybe by a wider margin margin than had been expected. According
00:07:48According to these initial projections, projections, the left Die Linke party
00:07:51party coming out ahead. So the CDU
00:07:53CDU quite possibly will lose power
00:07:59power here in Berlin. So at the moment, moment, according to these projections,
00:08:02projections, I think this is a poor poor outcome for Chancellor Friedrich
00:08:05Friedrich Mertz's party and is going going to feed further speculation
00:08:08speculation about whether he can can sustain his position. Indeed,
00:08:12Indeed, Jessica, I'm just looking looking at another detail from the
00:08:14the exit poll in Mecklenburg Pomerania, Pomerania, which says that the CDU
00:08:18CDU is projected to win 5.5%. There
00:08:22There was some speculation that if if his party did below 5%, then that
00:08:26that could be curtains for him. What
00:08:28What do you read into this? Yeah,
00:08:31Yeah, so I think I've seen a couple couple of different projections one
00:08:35one at around five, one at around around 5.5. So we'll have to wait wait for the final numbers to see
00:08:39see where the CDU has landed up. up. They will absolutely want to
00:08:42to be reaching that 5% margin in in order to enter the state parliament.
00:08:45parliament. It would be a record record catastrophic first if they they didn't manage that. They haven't
00:08:49haven't been traditionally strong strong in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, but they they don't want to be in single digits
00:08:53digits and indeed dropping out of of the state parliament altogether. altogether. So all eyes are going
00:08:57going to be now, I think, on how how those numbers break down as we
00:09:00we get the final results overnight
00:09:03overnight and into tomorrow. I've I've been in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern
00:09:06Mecklenburg-Vorpommern the last couple
00:09:09couple of days and look, Friedrich
00:09:11Friedrich Merz is a opinion, a popularity popularity ratings are low so you
00:09:15you wouldn't expect to find necessarily necessarily many fans of him there.
00:09:18there. Where I say the CDU hasn't hasn't traditionally been strong,
00:09:21strong, but the people I've spoken spoken to on different sides of the
00:09:25the political aisle, they've been been very critical of the Chancellor
00:09:28Chancellor criticisms that he has has failed to deliver on what he
00:09:32he said he would do, that he is arrogant.
00:09:34arrogant. That's a lot of the criticism
00:09:38criticism that he is out of touch. touch. There is a communication issue issue which people inside the CDU
00:09:41CDU admit to, and even Friedrich Friedrich Merz has said himself that
00:09:43that communication needs to improve. improve. I think his backers would
00:09:47would argue that this is a chancellor chancellor that has inherited a lot
00:09:50lot of difficult problems for Germany,
00:09:52Germany, a stuttering economy, fraught fraught debates over immigration
00:09:56immigration and there have been some some very difficult global headwinds
00:10:00headwinds as well. But I found in in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern a pretty
00:10:03pretty unforgiving mood in terms terms of what people think of Friedrich
00:10:05Friedrich Merz. And the question question now for his party is, do
00:10:08do they want to do something that that isn't really done in German
00:10:12German politics? Certainly extremely
00:10:15extremely rare, and consider trying trying to do a Kanzler Tauscher Chancellor
00:10:18Chancellor swap and bring in a new new leader in order to try and improve
00:10:22improve their fortunes. Now nobody nobody has come out in terms of a
00:10:25a prominent figure in the party to to actually challenge Friedrich Merz.
00:10:29Merz. And reportedly he's going to to be meeting or is meeting senior
00:10:32senior party figures tonight, presumably presumably to try and shore up his
00:10:35his position because he's vowed this this week that he's going to carry carry on. OK, Jessica Parker for
00:10:39for the moment, thank you very much. much. Two very different but very
00:10:42very significant races that we will will continue to watch here on BBC
00:10:46BBC News. Now let's get more on the
00:10:49the BBC. S exclusive interview with with Princess Diana's brother Earl
00:10:52Earl Spencer. The view is here in in the UK that full exchange has
00:10:55has now gone live on the BBC iPlayer. iPlayer. You can watch it now. What
00:10:59What Earl Spencer tells my colleague colleague Laura Kuenssberg he stands
00:11:02stands by his claims in his book, book, including his assertion that
00:11:05that on the night that Princess Diana
00:11:07Diana died, the then Prince Charles Charles sounded giddily elated. Well,
00:11:10Well, Laura, joining me here in the the studio a short while ago to talk
00:11:13talk about the key moments in her her interview. Buckingham Palace
00:11:17Palace is very strongly objected objected to how Earl Spencer has
00:11:21has presented those days around Princess
00:11:23Princess Diana's death. Back in 1997.
00:11:261997. And for the context, you have have to remember this extraordinary
00:11:29extraordinary event both men in shock, shock, in grief as the news was coming
00:11:32coming through in the early hours hours of the morning. And it's one
00:11:35one of the most explosive claims claims in this book that Charles
00:11:38Charles Spencer makes that Prince
00:11:40Prince Charles seemed to be pleased
00:11:43pleased about what had happened, happened, that he was also relieved,
00:11:45relieved, perhaps, that it meant meant he might be able to go on and
00:11:49and marry Camilla, who of course
00:11:51course now is Queen Camilla on the
00:11:54the throne alongside him. So it was was important in our interview really
00:11:56really to test out these claims and and really to say to Charles Spencer
00:11:59Spencer what was his evidence of
00:12:01of that? How what exactly did he
00:12:04he recall? And this is our exchange. exchange. I remember picking up the
00:12:07the telephone. I was upstairs in in my house in Cape Town, and he
00:12:11he was telling me how he had told
00:12:14told the boys, William and Harry Harry at Balmoral and broken the
00:12:17the news to them. And I. I felt,
00:12:20felt, as I say in the book, actually actually I felt there was a sort
00:12:24sort of giddy tone. I'd had a lot lot of calls that day from people
00:12:27people who cared, who were stunned
00:12:29stunned like we all were, and I just
00:12:32just felt there was a lightness in in his tone about Diana's death that
00:12:36that really jarred with me. You write
00:12:39write that he was giddily elated
00:12:42elated like a lottery winner. I mean, mean, you're suggesting he was somehow
00:12:45somehow pleased that his former wife
00:12:48wife was dead? Well, I'm reporting
00:12:51reporting every word in this book. book. I report exactly as I saw it
00:12:54it and felt it at the time. And I
00:12:57I was surprised at the giddiness giddiness of his tone. That's what
00:13:01what I'm recording there. It's an
00:13:04an incredibly damning thing to say, say, though, about his reaction to
00:13:07to the death of the mother of his his children. And you go on to write,
00:13:11write, I suspect the prince's reaction reaction must have been to think
00:13:15think more of how this event might might free him to marry the woman
00:13:19woman he loved, rather than appreciating appreciating the loss of the one
00:13:22one he did not. You're suggesting suggesting there in black and white
00:13:26white that the now King felt that
00:13:29that Diana's death was rather convenient convenient because he would be able
00:13:33able to marry Camilla. That is how
00:13:35how I felt at the time. From the
00:13:38the tone of his voice. So I've only only ever had two calls from him
00:13:41him and they were both around this this time. One was on the day of
00:13:45of Diana's death and one was a couple couple of days later. But are you
00:13:48you sure that's what he was thinking? thinking? I mean, I cannot. Be sure.
00:13:52sure. I'm saying that's what I assume
00:13:55assume from the tone is a possibility
00:13:57possibility and that's all I can
00:14:00can do. A very resolute Earl Spencer Spencer there, Laura. Even when you
00:14:04you pushed him on that. Of course
00:14:07course his book is also about his his sister and the loss. And that's
00:14:10that's something you also asked him him about, isn't it? Yes. I mean,
00:14:14mean, it's a strange thing in a sense. sense. Here you have these two families,
00:14:17families, the Spencers and the Windsors, Windsors, locked in a huge war of
00:14:21of words that has created headlines headlines right around the world.
00:14:23world. Yet when I sat down with Charles Charles Spencer and spoke to him him for half an hour or so about
00:14:27about everything that had happened happened and his memories of his his sister, it's also completely
00:14:31completely plain that he is still
00:14:34still first and foremost, however however angry the Palace is about.
00:14:37about. This book. A grieving brother
00:14:40brother and this is what came across.
00:14:43across. How much do you miss
00:14:49her? Well, every day, you know, that's that's the thing with sibling loss
00:14:51loss you never get over it. Do you
00:14:59you think there may be a time where
00:15:01where you've used the phrase get
00:15:04get over, but reading the book and
00:15:07and given how this has all played
00:15:09played in public, there is a sense
00:15:11sense that somehow what happened happened to her has understandably
00:15:15understandably almost consumed you
00:15:17you at times. I have a very. Luckily
00:15:21Luckily I have a hugely diverse and and happy life. One of the reasons
00:15:23reasons I call this swan song actually actually is because it's my sign
00:15:26sign off. I have been Diana's brother.
00:15:29brother. This is my final take on
00:15:32on the situation and I have a wonderful,
00:15:35wonderful, happy life. Gorgeous children,
00:15:38children, fabulous wife and we live live this much more normal life than
00:15:41than this looks like. And that's
00:15:43that's my future. This is my swan
00:15:45swan song too. I'm not here to bang
00:15:49bang on about Diana. This is my final
00:15:51final word. Celebration of her. And
00:15:55And I will step off into the sunset
00:15:57sunset now and not be available for
00:15:59for comment. He talks about his speaking
00:16:02speaking out as being a celebration celebration of his late sister, but
00:16:05but of course Laura. He also talked
00:16:07talked a lot about the media scrutiny scrutiny that she faced. That's right.
00:16:11right. And this is very complicated complicated because Charles Spencer, Spencer, of course, you can tell
00:16:14tell there he wants to pay tribute tribute to his sister. He wants to
00:16:17to tell some of his happy memories memories and share them with the the world as well. He also wanted
00:16:21wanted to give his view on exactly exactly what the man who's now on on the Throne's behaviour was like
00:16:25like at the time, and that's been been strongly objected from the Palace.
00:16:27Palace. He also knows that there there is huge interest and focus
00:16:31focus on his nephews William and and Harry, who are locked in a dispute.
00:16:34dispute. Harry and Meghan, who were were at his country estate, Althorp,
00:16:38Althorp, over the summer, and Harry Harry and Meghan, of course, who
00:16:40who has been the subject of massive massive media attention. So one of
00:16:43of the other things I asked him is
00:16:45is whether he feared that there were
00:16:48were echoes of the press intrusion, intrusion, which he believes haunted
00:16:51haunted and harmed his sister in
00:16:54in terms of how Harry and Meghan Meghan were being treated right now,
00:16:57now, all these years later. Do you
00:17:00you fear there is somehow in an echo echo of what happened to Diana? You
00:17:03You know, Harry has said on many
00:17:05many occasions that he hasn't felt felt supported by the institution
00:17:08institution over the choices that that he's made with his life. I think think there's a perception in the
00:17:12the media that I'm on Harry's side.
00:17:14side. Well, I'm on my deceased sister's
00:17:18sister's son's side, both of them. them. And if either of them wanted
00:17:20wanted anything, then I'd be equally equally there for them. And I never
00:17:24never get involved in one camp or
00:17:26or the other except as a benign figure.
00:17:28figure. I hope. That's my role. Do
00:17:32Do you think Diana would identify identify with the attention, the
00:17:36the focus that has been put on them, them, and with Meghan, who said she
00:17:39she felt like she was the most trolled trolled person in the world. You You know, they were here during the
00:17:43the summer not so long ago. If you
00:17:46you look at an article in a tabloid
00:17:49tabloid about Diana or the couple couple that you were mentioning,
00:17:53mentioning, Harry and Meghan, you
00:17:55you know, it's they can be really, really, really unpleasant. And I
00:17:59I think it would be really beholden beholden on people to learn from
00:18:02from Diana's example. I'm not here here to speak for Harry and Meghan,
00:18:05Meghan, but for anyone who's being being destroyed in this way daily,
00:18:09daily, it must be such a cancerous
00:18:12cancerous influence in their life. life. I saw it with Diana, I saw saw Diana, I mentioned it in the
00:18:16the eulogy. Her tears of despair. despair. One of the problems with
00:18:19with Diana was she was very, very very sensitive to criticism. And
00:18:23And of course, I'm sure most of your your viewers now think, oh, she had
00:18:27had this splendid life and it was was all amazing. And she didn't. didn't. She was so privileged and
00:18:30and so perfect in so many ways, but
00:18:32but she was really brought low by by all that criticism. And yeah,
00:18:36yeah, I suppose it's a pity when
00:18:38when I see echoes of that now. Laura,
00:18:41Laura, as we've already discussed
00:18:44discussed in this interview, Buckingham Buckingham Palace have strongly denied
00:18:47denied many of the claims from Earl Earl Spencer, not least the one where
00:18:51where he said Princess Diana would would be soon forgotten. Shortly Shortly after her death she challenged
00:18:54challenged him on that. We did and and we should just also reiterate reiterate Buckingham Palace have
00:18:58have given a very strongly worded
00:19:01worded response to the claims that that emerged in the last few days.
00:19:04days. They said the King was mindful mindful that the pain of fraternal
00:19:08fraternal grief can cloud reason, reason, affect judgement and colour
00:19:12colour memory in ways others do not.
00:19:14not. Others don't recognise. Even
00:19:16Even many years after such a loss.
00:19:19loss. Now for context, it's incredibly incredibly unusual that Buckingham
00:19:22Buckingham Palace would issue a statement statement on something so charged
00:19:25charged that's very, very unusual unusual indeed. You can tell from
00:19:29from the tone also that they are
00:19:31are pushing back very, very hard
00:19:33hard on this. And also, as you would would expect, given the nature of
00:19:36of the claim, how controversial and and explosive it is that for Charles
00:19:40Charles Spencer to make in his book,
00:19:42book, I asked him if he had any evidence, evidence, if he told anyone else,
00:19:45else, if he'd made notes at the time time of what he claims. The then
00:19:49then Prince Charles said all those
00:19:51those years ago. He went ballistic
00:19:53ballistic would be the right term term and started really going for
00:19:57for my family as a whole about their
00:19:59their sense of duty not being adequate
00:20:02adequate enough and ranted for a a while. I have no idea how long,
00:20:05long, but it was a significant period period and I just listened. And then
00:20:09then he stopped and I thought, oh, oh, now now he's going to pull himself
00:20:12himself together and say something
00:20:14something more appropriate. And then
00:20:16then he said, we'll forget her soon
00:20:19soon enough. What went through your
00:20:23your mind? Well. I'm not sure I can can say exactly what went through
00:20:26through my mind, but I really was was so stunned. And I just after
00:20:30after a stunned silence, I said,
00:20:32said, I cannot believe you just said
00:20:34said that. And I hung up on him.
00:20:40him. You know that Buckingham Palace
00:20:43Palace has already said with a degree
00:20:46degree of fury. That that didn't
00:20:50didn't happen. Well, they haven't haven't actually, Laura, they've they've sort of smudged that one
00:20:54one haven't they? They've said that that recollections may vary. Well
00:20:57Well let me read you exactly what
00:20:58what the palace has said. They said
00:21:02said His Majesty is mindful that
00:21:04that the pain of fraternal grief
00:21:07grief can cloud reason affect judgement
00:21:11judgement and colour memory in ways
00:21:14ways others do not recognise. Even
00:21:16Even many years after such a loss,
00:21:19loss, the. King is plainly furious.
00:21:23furious. Buckingham Palace almost almost never issues any kind of statement.
00:21:26statement. Well, is he. Furious or or is he embarrassed? Because I can
00:21:29can tell you here and now those are are exactly the words he said. I've
00:21:32I've only ever had two calls on the the line with Prince Charles at any
00:21:35any stage of my life. I was hyper hyper alert to what he was saying.
00:21:39saying. And those are precisely the the words he said. And I promised
00:21:42promised that to you. Now, genuinely, genuinely, that is what he said.
00:21:45said. I don't hear him saying he
00:21:47he didn't say that. Did you write
00:21:52write it down? Did you keep a diary? diary? Do you have evidence that
00:21:55that that is what he said at the the time? Because to be fair, this
00:21:59this was a time of massive shock
00:22:01shock and emotion for both of you.
00:22:04you. I told friends and family straight straight away close friends and family
00:22:08family about what had been said because because it was so monstrous. Which
00:22:11Which Charles, with the public meant meant to believe. Are they to believe
00:22:15believe you or are they to believe
00:22:18believe the King, the head of state state of this country, who's giving
00:22:21giving the impression very forcefully
00:22:25forcefully that this didn't happen? happen? Who are we to believe? Well,
00:22:28Well, I'm telling the truth. A strong
00:22:30strong response there, Laura from from Earl Spencer. Just lastly, as
00:22:34as we wrap up this conversation, conversation, I just wondered what what it was like to do that interview
00:22:38interview because of course, some some really astonishing remarks have
00:22:41have come out of it. Slightly surreal,
00:22:43surreal, to be honest. I mean, this
00:22:46this is a family battle that has has been played out in public over
00:22:49over many, many, many years. And And if you like a contest for the
00:22:53the legacy of who's controlling the the legacy of the women who for a
00:22:56a long time was the most famous woman woman in the world, you know, not
00:22:59not just here in the UK where we're we're speaking in London, but around
00:23:03around the world, known everywhere
00:23:04everywhere for, of course, the sadness sadness around her, her and Prince
00:23:08Prince Charles's failed marriage, marriage, but also her campaigning,
00:23:10campaigning, her busting of conventions. conventions. And then of course,
00:23:14course, that terrible accident which
00:23:15which saw her lose her life. But
00:23:18But the timing of this interview interview also, which was just hours
00:23:21hours 12 or so hours after Buckingham Buckingham Palace had put its statement statement out, meant that rather
00:23:24rather than just being a conversation conversation about what Earl Spencer
00:23:28Spencer wanted to say, it was transformed transformed into a conversation about
00:23:32about integrity and truth and who
00:23:34who was telling the truth. And you you know, I've interviewed lots of
00:23:37of people over the years as you have have to, but to have a conversation
00:23:40conversation with someone who's questioning questioning the integrity of the
00:23:43the head of state is something that
00:23:47that is pretty unusual. And you can can watch the full interview, as
00:23:50as you say here in the UK on iPlayer, iPlayer, but there will be excerpts excerpts on YouTube and it'll be
00:23:54be available in other parts of the the world too. So yeah, it's a it's
00:23:57it's an important conversation. And And I think whatever you think of
00:24:01of either family here, the Spencers Spencers and Windsors have rivalries rivalries that go back for hundreds
00:24:05hundreds of years. You know, there's there's a lot of history here too.
00:24:08too. This is like it or not a public
00:24:12public conversation. And it is a
00:24:15a matter of historical record. Laura
00:24:19Laura Kuenssberg speaking to me in in the studio earlier and you can
00:24:22can watch her full interview with with Earl Spencer here on the BBC
00:24:26BBC News channel. We'll bring it
00:24:27it to you in a special programme
00:24:30programme just over 90 minutes from
00:24:32from now at 7pm BST in the UK. That
00:24:35That interview will also be aired
00:24:37aired at 6:30pm on BBC One. It's
00:24:39It's already now up on the BBC iPlayer
00:24:43iPlayer and on BBC Sounds, and there's there's more reflections and fallout fallout from the interview as well
00:24:47well on the BBC News website. We're
00:24:50We're just going to bring you an an update on those two elections
00:24:54elections we are watching in Germany.
00:24:55Germany. Those state elections, one one in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania,
00:24:59Pomerania, the other one in Berlin. Berlin. Now the polls just closed
00:25:03closed about 25 minutes ago. The The exit polls indicate the following.
00:25:07following. There's two different different races. We'll start with with the one in Mecklenburg-Western
00:25:11Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, where where it looks like the far right
00:25:14right Alternative for Germany. AfD AfD party is set to win the most
00:25:18most votes there. Meanwhile, in Berlin,
00:25:21Berlin, the Socialist Left party party has surged to first place.
00:25:24place. There. You can see the pictures
00:25:27pictures there of Berlin as supporters
00:25:30supporters of the Socialist Left
00:25:32Left Party are cheering as those those exit polls came in. Well, there's
00:25:36there's been a lot of pressure on
00:25:37on the Chancellor of Germany, Friedrich
00:25:41Friedrich Merz, and his CDU, Christian Christian Democratic Union party.
00:25:44party. He has been speaking, he said
00:25:46said the election result in Mecklenburg-Western
00:25:50Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania was was a disaster. He said he is ready ready to stay on as party leader
00:25:54leader and chancellor. Of course course there's been a lot of pressure
00:25:56pressure for him to quit and he says, says, I take responsibility because
00:25:59because I want to move the country country forward. Samantha Simmonds
00:26:03Simmonds is up next. We'll continue continue our
00:27:35of the week.
00:29:55means for you. Go online at bbc.com/business bbc.com/business to get the latest latest news wherever you are. Business
00:29:59Business on BBC News. Make the connection.
00:30:07connection. MUSIC
00:30:08MUSIC
00:30:17These are the latest headlines from BBC News. Exit polls in two
00:30:21two local elections in Germany show show big losses for Chancellor Merkel's
00:30:25Merkel's CDU party. Friedrich Merz Merz has described the results of
00:30:28of a state of those state elections
00:30:30elections as a disaster Earl Spencer
00:30:33Spencer tells the BBC. Writing his his book about his sister Princess
00:30:37Princess Diana was his duty as an an eyewitness to history. He's defended
00:30:40defended claims he's made about King King Charles. At least two people
00:30:44people are killed in the Moscow area area after a massive Ukrainian drone
00:30:48drone attack overnight. The mayor
00:30:49mayor of the city claims 450 drones drones were directed towards Moscow.
00:30:53Moscow. Russia says it's an attempt attempt to disrupt the country's
00:30:56country's parliamentary elections. elections. Ed Sheeran apologises
00:30:59apologises to fans for what he says says are mistakes. It's as he's performed
00:31:02performed for the first time since since one of his opening acts acts
00:31:05acts Macklemore, was dropped for for making pro-Palestinian remarks
00:31:09remarks on stage. We'll have more
00:31:17more on those stories we've mentioned mentioned in the headlines, but it's it's that time of the day where we
00:31:21we turn to the day's sport. Let's Let's go to Lizzie Greenwood-Hughes Greenwood-Hughes at the BBC Sports
00:31:24Sports Centre. Hello Rajini. We're We're starting with football and and an extraordinary game in the
00:31:28the Premier League. There were eight
00:31:30eight goals at Manchester City who who eventually beat Sunderland five
00:31:34five three, but it could have been been many more for both sides in
00:31:37in a thrilling game at the Etihad, Etihad, where defence apparently apparently wasn't a priority for
00:31:41for either team. 3-2 at half-time, half-time, including a goal from
00:31:43from Bryan Brobbey, who went on to to score a hat-trick for Sunderland.
00:31:47Sunderland. Antoine Semenyo also also scored twice for city and Erling
00:31:50Erling Haaland got their fifth and and final goal to complete the full
00:31:54full set of scoring against every every Premier League side that he
00:31:57he has faced some record for the the Norwegian and the result means
00:32:00means city are now three points clear
00:32:02clear at the top of the table before
00:32:05before the international break. First
00:32:06First of all, I feel very happy because
00:32:09because we won the game, but also also we found a way to win the game.
00:32:13game. We knew that, you know, we we didn't expect an easy game at
00:32:17at all. We knew that was a difficult
00:32:19difficult game. I think overall probably
00:32:23probably we made some mistakes, but
00:32:25but it's good because in this first
00:32:27first eight weeks we play seven official
00:32:30official games and they have been been all different and we learn a
00:32:33a lot. And Erling does get another another goal again, it's another
00:32:36another goal against a Premier League League team. Hadn't scored against against Sunderland before. People
00:32:39People were talking that statistic statistic weren't they? We knew he'd he'd score today didn't we? Yeah,
00:32:43Yeah, they mentioned me before the the game. I didn't know that. But
00:32:45But yeah, he scored. He had a few few more chances. But again happy
00:32:49happy because we won the game. With With just the one goal at Bournemouth
00:32:53Bournemouth where Andoni Iraola made made a winning return to his old
00:32:56old club with Liverpool. Alexander Alexander Isak was the only scorer
00:32:58scorer at the Vitality Stadium to to give Liverpool the narrow victory,
00:33:02victory, which means Bournemouth Bournemouth are still without a win
00:33:04win this season, whilst Liverpool Liverpool climb up to sixth. The
00:33:08The result is very good you know,
00:33:10know, because coming to this, this this stadium we know very well, it's
00:33:14it's very difficult. It's very difficult difficult to get the three points. points. We could feel it especially
00:33:18especially at the beginning of the the game, how intense they were.
00:33:21were. I think also at the end you you could feel they were a little
00:33:24little bit tired. And I think we
00:33:25we could finish the job. And the the other game. Leeds are still unbeaten
00:33:30unbeaten this season. They drew at at home to Crystal Palace and in
00:33:32in the late kick off Fulham against against Manchester United is goalless.
00:33:35goalless. They've just kicked off off the second half in the Scottish
00:33:38Scottish Premiership. Rangers beat beat Celtic now Moto GP and Pedro
00:33:42Pedro Acosta has won his first race race with victory at the Austrian
00:33:46Austrian Grand Prix. The Spaniard Spaniard crashed out while leading
00:33:49leading Saturday's sprint race but but recovered to get the win today
00:33:51today to claim his team's ktm's first
00:33:54first race victory in over four years.
00:33:56years. Seven time champion Marc Marquez
00:33:59Marquez could only finish fifth. fifth. Britain's Olympic gold medal
00:34:02medal winning eventer Tom McEwen McEwen has made history by becoming
00:34:05becoming the first rider to win both both competitions at the Blenheim Blenheim Palace. International Horse
00:34:09Horse Trials. McEwen finished first first and second in the prestigious
00:34:11prestigious false start, winning winning on the Fieldmaster despite
00:34:14despite knocking a pole down in the the final showjumping phase, while
00:34:17while earlier in the day he also also won the young horse class there.
00:34:21there. Now there's been a world record record at the World Road Running
00:34:24Running Championships. Agnes Ngetich
00:34:27Ngetich set the fastest recorded recorded time for a woman only half
00:34:30half marathon as she took gold in in Copenhagen. The Kenyan claimed
00:34:34claimed victory in one hour, five five minutes and 15 seconds as she
00:34:37she took a second off the previous previous record held by compatriot
00:34:41compatriot Peres Jepchirchir since
00:34:43since 2020. Now the former England England and Tottenham winger Andros
00:34:47Andros Townsend has had a lucky escape escape after being run over by a
00:34:50a pitch roller before a game in Thailand. Thailand. The 35-year-old, who now
00:34:54now plays for the Thai League One One side PT Prachuap, was struck
00:34:58struck during the warm-up and his his left leg briefly stuck under
00:35:01under the vehicle, which is used used to prepare the pitch before
00:35:03before their away match at Pattani. Pattani. Townsend somehow avoided
00:35:06avoided injury and came on later
00:35:09later as a substitute and that is is it for me for now. But as always,
00:35:13always, there's much more on the the BBC Sport website, including including the conclusion of the PGA
00:35:17PGA golf, which is there, as I say say on the BBC Sport website and
00:35:20and app. Goodness, Lizzie, that looked looked painful, didn't it? Thank
00:35:22Thank you very much for that update.
00:35:25update. Now the authorities in Moscow Moscow say at least two people have
00:35:28have been killed and six injured injured in a massive overnight Ukrainian
00:35:32Ukrainian drone attack on the city. city. Posting this footage on social
00:35:35social media this morning, Ukraine's Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky Zelensky confirmed that Kyiv had
00:35:39had hit a key Russian oil facility facility and a logistics site in
00:35:43in the region. The targets, he said, said, represented billions of dollars
00:35:46dollars that sustain the war machine. machine. Well, the mayor of Moscow Moscow said it was the largest drone
00:35:49drone attack on the Russian capital
00:35:52capital yet and that some 450 drones drones heading for the capital were
00:35:55were shot down. The Russian authorities authorities accused Ukraine of trying
00:35:57trying to disrupt the country's parliamentary parliamentary elections, which ends
00:36:01ends today, and claim more than six
00:36:03six 1600 drones have been repelled repelled since yesterday. Our Russia
00:36:07Russia editor, Steve Rosenberg, is is in Moscow and I've been asking
00:36:09asking him more about those attacks attacks and about the elections.
00:36:13elections. Well, first of all, the the reaction. No sense of surprise
00:36:16surprise here. More a kind of quiet quiet resignation. I think that after
00:36:20after more than four and a half years
00:36:22years of Russia's war on Ukraine, Ukraine, Muscovites have got used
00:36:25used to their city periodically becoming becoming a frontline. And many people,
00:36:29people, I think, had expected attacks attacks during the election. This This is one of the polling stations
00:36:33stations just behind me. But in the the centre. But earlier today we
00:36:36we were at a polling station very very close to the oil refinery that
00:36:40that got hit. One young voter told told me that he'd heard the explosions.
00:36:43explosions. He'd heard loud bangs.
00:36:45bangs. He said it was a bad situation. situation. I spoke to an older voter
00:36:49voter who said he wants peace, but
00:36:51but by peace he means Ukraine's defeat.
00:36:54defeat. As for the election, while while the whole process is tightly tightly controlled by the Kremlin
00:36:58Kremlin and I think Vladimir Putin Putin will want to use the election
00:37:02election and the results to be announced announced later, to try to show that
00:37:05that the whole country is behind
00:37:07behind the Kremlin, behind the war war in Ukraine, almost to give him
00:37:11him a mandate to continue with the
00:37:13the special military operation. That's
00:37:15That's our Russia editor, Steve Rosenberg.
00:37:18Rosenberg. Now to Pakistan and the
00:37:20the sister of Pakistan's jailed former
00:37:22former Prime Minister Imran Khan Khan has been reportedly arrested
00:37:25arrested in Lahore. A spokesman for
00:37:27for Imran Khan's PTI party says Aleema
00:37:30Aleema Khan was arrested at her home
00:37:32home on Sunday ahead of a planned planned party protest march, which
00:37:35which is due to take place next week. week. Well, the government and the
00:37:38the police in the country have yet yet to comment. Former cricketer
00:37:41cricketer Imran Khan has been in in prison since August 2023 after
00:37:45after being convicted on several several charges, including corruption,
00:37:48corruption, which he says are politically politically motivated and his sisters
00:37:51sisters have been campaigning on on his behalf for his release. Ed
00:37:55Ed Sheeran's apologised on stage stage to fans in Philadelphia and
00:37:58and admitted he made mistakes following following the controversy over his
00:38:01his world tour. The singer has been been dealing with the fallout after after his support act. The American
00:38:05American rapper Macklemore was removed removed from the line-up after he
00:38:08he made pro-Palestinian remarks on on stage. It led to the other support
00:38:11support act then pulling out of the the tour, while Ed Sheeran said he
00:38:15he questioned whether he wanted to to be an artist at all after everything
00:38:19everything that happened. Carl Nasman Nasman reports from the concert.
00:38:22concert. Ed Sheeran is used to having
00:38:23having the spotlight on his music. music. Tonight it was squarely on
00:38:27on his words. This is not how I would
00:38:30would open the show. But before I I play some songs tonight, I hope
00:38:33hope it's OK if I say a few words.
00:38:36words. Taking the stage in Philadelphia, Philadelphia, the megastar apologised
00:38:40apologised directly to his fans for for the recent controversy surrounding
00:38:42surrounding his tour. This week. week. The criticism was about something
00:38:46something much more important and and I've had to take and make difficult
00:38:50difficult decisions and I am making
00:38:51making mistakes and I'm so, so sorry.
00:38:54sorry. He also clarified where he he stands on the situation in Gaza.
00:38:58Gaza. What happened in Israel and
00:39:00and at the Nova Music Festival on
00:39:02on October 7th was horrific and compounded
00:39:04compounded centuries of Jewish pain.
00:39:07pain. What is happening in Gaza is
00:39:10is a catastrophic and unjustifiable unjustifiable and disproportionate.
00:39:13disproportionate. My heart has been been broken by the scale of devastation
00:39:16devastation and loss of civilians
00:39:19civilians lives, of children's lives lives and the systemic injustice
00:39:23injustice we're seeing unfold in in the West Bank cannot be overlooked.
00:39:26overlooked. Sheeran also addressed addressed the musicians not in the
00:39:29the room. His backing band and tour tour mates left in solidarity after
00:39:33after the rapper Macklemore was dropped dropped over his pro-Palestinian
00:39:37pro-Palestinian views. He said he he was deeply worried about venues
00:39:41venues pre-approving content or performers.
00:39:43performers. I was in some of the the front rows inside that stadium
00:39:46stadium as Ed Sheeran made that speech speech and this was clearly an emotional
00:39:50emotional moment for him, he said. said. He was worried about how he
00:39:53he might be perceived tonight and and he was thankful that fans came
00:39:56came out at all. I thought it was was beautiful that we got to witness
00:39:59witness him in his element, like like what he's used to being in from
00:40:02from the start, you know? So he started started by himself and he's just
00:40:05just as good by himself and with with all these extra people. So I'm
00:40:08I'm glad we got more Ed Sheeran than than we would have otherwise. He
00:40:11He stayed neutral and I think he he covered both sides nicely. I think
00:40:14think everyone leaves happy and a a big fan of his. Sheeran is an artist
00:40:18artist who likes to stay out of politics,
00:40:21politics, but that has become increasingly increasingly difficult. Before the
00:40:23the concert, dozens of pro-Palestinian pro-Palestinian protesters near the
00:40:27the stadium only added to the pressure. pressure. Sheeran said tonight that that he wants his concerts to be
00:40:31be a place where everyone is welcome, welcome, and he likely hopes now
00:40:35now the focus can return to his music.
00:40:39music. Carl Nasman, BBC News. Scotland's Scotland's efforts to tackle its
00:40:43its drug death crisis are being challenged challenged by a growing influx of
00:40:46of powerful synthetic drugs. Experts
00:40:48Experts warn that new synthetic opioids opioids are becoming increasingly increasingly widespread, raising
00:40:52raising concerns that the number number of drug related deaths could
00:40:55could rise when the latest figures figures are due to be published this this week. With more, here's our
00:40:58our Scotland editor, James Cook.
00:41:02Cook. This spotless laboratory in in Dundee seems a world away from
00:41:06from the chaotic reality of illegal illegal drug use. But scientists
00:41:10scientists here are racing against against a deadly and evolving threat.
00:41:13threat. They're examining samples samples of seized drugs to find out
00:41:16out exactly what's in them. And the
00:41:19the answers are worrying. With new
00:41:21new substances emerging all the time. time. In terms of Europe, we are
00:41:24are seeing roughly about a drug entering entering into Europe context within
00:41:28within kind of every 1 to 2 weeks weeks something new will arise. I
00:41:31I mean, it's pretty rapid for us us to be able to keep up as
00:41:35scientists. And that must be dangerous. dangerous. Yeah, these drugs are are extremely dangerous. The illicit illicit drug supply in Scotland is
00:41:38is getting more and more dangerous dangerous as time goes on. They're
00:41:42They're particularly worried about about synthetic opioids called nitazenes,
00:41:46nitazenes, often hundreds of times times more potent than heroin. Criminals
00:41:50Criminals are mixing them with all all sorts of other substances, from
00:41:53from Valium style pills to powdered
00:41:56powdered cocaine. Last year, Police
00:42:01Police Scotland seized £80 million million worth of street drugs. This
00:42:04This year, the figure has already
00:42:07already reached 78 million and we we can reveal detectives have raided
00:42:10raided suspected nitazenes labs in in Ayrshire and Midlothian, arresting
00:42:14arresting five people. This is not
00:42:17not just an urban problem. The rapidly
00:42:20rapidly changing nature of the drug drug supply is hitting rural Scotland
00:42:24Scotland too. We've come to the Kintyre Kintyre peninsula on the far west
00:42:27west of the mainland, to hear more
00:42:30more about what is a struggle to
00:42:31to save lives. There are all sorts
00:42:34sorts of ways to do that. This group group tries to treat trauma by helping
00:42:38helping former drug users reconnect reconnect with nature, but the staff
00:42:42staff say their job has been made
00:42:44made harder by the rapidly evolving evolving nature of drug supplies.
00:42:48supplies. Some of these substances substances are so potent that a grain
00:42:51grain would be enough to take somebody somebody over and to kill them and
00:42:55and to possibly kill them. So this this is a frightening new landscape, landscape, really. It really is.
00:42:58is. I mean, I think I mean, it's
00:43:01it's not something I normally find find myself saying, but I don't think think drugs have ever been as risky
00:43:05risky or as dangerous as they are are now. People just never know quite
00:43:07quite what they're getting any more. more. And it's a terrible thing to
00:43:10to say. But with heroin it was better. better. The devil you knew. Quite
00:43:13Quite a statement and a reminder reminder of the scale of this crisis.
00:43:16crisis. We just want to think about
00:43:18about all those that we've lost through
00:43:20through substance use. So many lives
00:43:23lives lost. So much still to do to
00:43:26to save others. James Cook, BBC News,
00:43:29News, Kintyre. AI is making itself
00:43:31itself felt in many different parts parts of our lives, including when
00:43:34when it comes to finding a job or or hiring someone for one. Right
00:43:37Right now there's what's being called called an application explosion,
00:43:41explosion, which is creating challenges challenges for job seekers as well well as employers. Well, in the latest
00:43:45latest in his in-depth videos, our our analysis editor Ros Atkins explores
00:43:48explores the experience of looking
00:43:49looking for a job in the art of artificial
00:43:52artificial intelligence era. Looking
00:43:53Looking for a job is hard. But is
00:43:57is AI making it harder? Feels like like I'm talking to a robot. It feels
00:44:00feels really disheartening. The survival survival of the fittest. Now really.
00:44:03really. AI stands accused of ruining ruining the job market. Do you buy
00:44:07buy that? No I don't. But has a doom
00:44:09doom loop been created where AI is
00:44:11is used to write more and more applications
00:44:14applications and where employers employers increasingly use AI to to sift through them? Two out of
00:44:18of three of our clients are really really struggling with the volume. They can simply go click,
00:44:22click, click click. If you do get get through the AI shortlisting,
00:44:26shortlisting, guess who might be be doing the interview? Once I had
00:44:29had these AI tell me that I lacked
00:44:30lacked empathy. It's like you're you're speaking to a robot essentially,
00:44:34essentially, and I don't think that's that's what. You are. Well, you are
00:44:37are exactly. Recruitment is being
00:44:40being rewired by technology, but
00:44:42but is it better either for the applicant applicant or for the employer? To
00:44:45To help understand the issues, I I wanted to hear from people in the
00:44:49the middle of this. Kate runs an
00:44:52an AI consultancy. Matt is a recruitment
00:44:55recruitment executive and Niamh Adi
00:44:56Adi and Santina are job hunting and
00:45:00and sending a lot of applications. applications. Over 200 now. About
00:45:03About 50. It's been 100 so far. That's That's just in the last year. This
00:45:07This is part of an application explosion
00:45:10explosion which is happening for for several reasons. Competition
00:45:13Competition is fierce. The number number of vacancies is down. The
00:45:16The number of graduates is at a record
00:45:19record high and AI is helping to
00:45:21to write more and more applications.
00:45:24applications. 20 years ago, for graduate graduate vacancies, there were on
00:45:28on average 38 applications per job.
00:45:30job. Last year it was 140. Let's
00:45:33Let's look at this from both sides. sides. The employers and first the
00:45:37the job seekers. You're trying to to get a job at the moment you're you're finishing university. How
00:45:41How central is AI to doing that? that? It's really central. I use
00:45:44use it now for finding the jobs itself. itself. When I'm searching for jobs,
00:45:48jobs, I have my automated agent that that goes scrapes through the whole
00:45:51whole internet seeing which roles roles apply, opening which ones the
00:45:54the deadlines are, and it helps me me narrow the selection down. It's It's maybe putting keywords, see
00:45:58see which ones can make sound better. better. Even when I know I want to
00:46:02to portray a certain side of myself myself and what I want to say and
00:46:05and AI can help me sound better. better. Maybe edit my CV. I would
00:46:09would make sure that it has the same
00:46:11same words that there are in the
00:46:13the job description. Adi Niamh and
00:46:15and Santina aren't alone. One survey
00:46:18survey found 73% of students and
00:46:20and graduates use AI at some stage stage during the application process.
00:46:23process. I'll be honest, I'm surprised surprised it's not even higher. After
00:46:27After all, AI is very helpful and and there's one part of the process
00:46:30process where it's being used a lot.
00:46:32lot. Keywords job ads ask for certain
00:46:36certain experience and attributes. attributes. AI can make sure your your application includes those words.
00:46:40words. That's particularly helpful helpful when an AI sift is looking
00:46:44looking for them. But here's something something that might surprise you
00:46:47you using AI to shortlist people
00:46:49people isn't as widely used as you you might expect. One survey found
00:46:53found that 75% of candidates believe believe AI was being used to screen
00:46:57screen CVS. The number of recruiters
00:46:58recruiters who reported using it
00:47:02it was 21% on AI sifts. The UK's UK's Prime Minister, Andy Burnham,
00:47:05Burnham, has said. It doesn't feel feel to me that recruitment in the
00:47:09the post-pandemic era is becoming becoming fairer. It just does feel
00:47:12feel harder these days to make that
00:47:15that breakthrough, to get that first first connection, getting yourself
00:47:18yourself in front of someone is hard, hard, partly because of the volume
00:47:21volume of applications, partly because because technology is being used
00:47:25used for some of the shortlisting. shortlisting. But there are challenges
00:47:29challenges for employers to. Matt Matt Weston is a senior executive
00:47:32executive at recruitment firm Robert
00:47:33Robert Half. It places over 100,000
00:47:36100,000 candidates a year globally.
00:47:38globally. It's hard to find the true
00:47:41true skills of the individual. I I think with AI you can put in a
00:47:44a job spec, it can generate a CV. CV. I'm trying to imagine the scene
00:47:47scene in your office. Are you sometimes sometimes sitting there just going,
00:47:50going, goodness, more and more and and more applications coming in all
00:47:53all looking. Quite the same. They
00:47:55They are very Samy and that's really,
00:47:58really, really hard to. That's the the art of what we do. The art is
00:48:01is just justifying or really going going through and seeing who is the
00:48:05the right candidate. A recent Ft Ft article explained why recruiting
00:48:09recruiting is going retro in the the age of AI, when every application
00:48:12application is polished, Polish tells
00:48:14tells you nothing. One HR executive
00:48:17executive says, which is where referrals referrals and personal recommendations
00:48:20recommendations come in. And as Matt
00:48:23Matt emphasises, checking out whether
00:48:25whether the CV actually matches what
00:48:27what the candidate can do. It all
00:48:30all comes down to vetting that very
00:48:32very tightly. A CV is essentially essentially a two-dimensional piece
00:48:36piece of paper, right? It can have have everything on there where the
00:48:39the art and the skill of where we we come in is where we can verify
00:48:43verify true experience and relevant relevant skills. In other words,
00:48:47words, even if technology helps, helps, human judgement is still an
00:48:50an essential part of the process. process. At this point, it's important
00:48:54important to be clear on something something that the use of technology
00:48:58technology to shortlist candidates candidates isn't necessarily seen
00:49:01seen as a bad thing. The Information Information Commissioner says these
00:49:04these tools can enable employers employers to process high volumes
00:49:07volumes of applications consistently consistently and quickly. Or listen
00:49:10listen to Kate Young. Her business business works with companies which
00:49:14which use AI recruitment tools. What
00:49:16What we do know is that humans making making decisions about who to hire
00:49:20hire is a deeply flawed process, process, and it always has been.
00:49:22been. I'm sure we can all remember. remember. Think of a time we were
00:49:26were rejected for a job. We didn't didn't have a firm handshake. We
00:49:29We didn't make eye contact or some some other spurious question. The
00:49:31The interviewer asked us that actually actually nothing to do with our capabilities.
00:49:35capabilities. Kate offers a useful useful reminder that humans haven't
00:49:38haven't always got it right. Generally,
00:49:41Generally, if the right guardrails guardrails are present, evaluate
00:49:44evaluate what it's been told to and and assuming those things are job
00:49:47job relevant criteria, there is the the possibility of better outcome outcome because all that error and
00:49:50and noise and bias can potentially potentially be screened out, but but only if it's built well. And
00:49:54And he said if the guardrails are are there. But that's a big if because
00:49:58because there are huge concerns, concerns, aren't there, that AI will
00:50:02will prioritise or elevate certain certain types of people. Those concerns
00:50:05concerns are very real and is a big big shift from the guardrails. You're
00:50:08You're quite right. And the guardrails
00:50:11guardrails are many and complicated, complicated, and they're everything
00:50:14everything from who built the system. system. Did they have the right expert
00:50:18expert expertise to do it? Which Which particular technology they
00:50:20they used, which particular AI technique technique they used. Do that? Well.
00:50:24Well. Kate argues an AI can be good
00:50:27good for both applicant and employer, employer, though more broadly it's
00:50:31it's not clear how easily employers employers can adapt their AI tools
00:50:34tools to meet their specific requirements.
00:50:37requirements. And there's another another concern you might think that
00:50:40that applying to ten different companies
00:50:42companies gives you ten chances. chances. Not necessarily. If different
00:50:46different employers are using the the same or very similar algorithms,
00:50:49algorithms, the same candidates could could be favoured again and again.
00:50:53again. Researchers have a term for
00:50:55for this risk algorithmic monoculture.
00:50:58monoculture. That's not actually actually a new phenomenon. It has has not a lot to do with AI, to be
00:51:02be honest with you. So if you think think back 30, 40 years, we would
00:51:06would typically see the same types types of people getting the best best jobs anyway, you know, those
00:51:09those people were well off. They They might be members of certain certain majority groups, they might
00:51:13might have access to certain social social privilege, they might have have gone to the best universities
00:51:17universities and those people would would always have had their pick pick of jobs. And then if you think
00:51:20think about assessment before AI AI employers were still able to configure
00:51:24configure systems to choose certain certain types of people. This is
00:51:27is contested territory, both which which biases humans may have and
00:51:31and which factors may offer reasonable
00:51:33reasonable grounds to favour or reject reject a candidate. And though it's
00:51:37it's claimed AI can move beyond human
00:51:40human biases given it learns from
00:51:42from human data that is far from
00:51:44from guaranteed. Whatever the merits, merits, if you do get through an
00:51:48an AI shortlist next may come an
00:51:51an AI interview. Hi, I'll be your your AI interviewer today. My goal
00:51:54goal is to learn more about you and and the experiences, skills and competencies
00:51:58competencies you might bring to this this role. Sometimes an AI avatar
00:52:01avatar will ask you questions and
00:52:03and then respond to your answers. answers. Other times you're given
00:52:07given a set series of questions with
00:52:09with each answer recorded as a timer
00:52:11timer counts down. The World Economic
00:52:14Economic Forum says AI led interviews interviews can expand opportunities
00:52:17opportunities for overlooked candidates, candidates, reduce recruiter bias,
00:52:21bias, increase efficiency and make make rejection more constructive.
00:52:25constructive. But the experience experience of these interviews isn't
00:52:29isn't always so positive. It's really really uncanny. It's really inhumane.
00:52:32inhumane. And it's like I'm trying trying to speak my heart out, be
00:52:35be as passionate as I can. But the
00:52:39the persona only sees, oh, are you you able to do this? Are you saying
00:52:42saying these key words? How does does it feel when you're talking
00:52:46talking to a AI generated person person to try and get a job? It doesn't
00:52:50doesn't feel nice. It doesn't feel feel nice. It feels like I'm putting
00:52:53putting all this effort in and I
00:52:56I don't see like, like with a normal normal human, you'd see. Yeah. Like,
00:52:59Like, you know, smiles. To the stage
00:53:02stage where I had an interview where
00:53:04where I was recorded, but I was essentially
00:53:07essentially talking to an AI and
00:53:09and the AI would basically ask me me questions based on what I was
00:53:13was saying. Once I had this AI telling
00:53:15telling me that I lacked empathy.
00:53:17empathy. So that for me was a bit
00:53:20bit was a bit crazy. Does it matter matter to you that there's no evidence
00:53:23evidence of a human being involved? involved? Yeah, definitely. It feels
00:53:27feels like I'm never going to be
00:53:30be understood by the other side. side. It feels like I'm talking to to a robot. I've got to be honest.
00:53:34honest. It feels reasonably bleak bleak that you're not just talking talking about wanting to get a job.
00:53:37job. You're talking about wanting wanting to reach the point where where you can speak to someone. Which
00:53:41Which is even before getting the the job, which is even more like, like, oh, there's such a long process
00:53:45process I have to go through to even
00:53:47even get my potential seen. Question Question here is how much of this
00:53:51this is the fault of new technology? technology? That is a very real and
00:53:54and valid feeling and I have a lot lot of sympathy with that perspective.
00:53:58perspective. Of course we all want want to meet a human. We all want want to feel that connection. We
00:54:01We want to feel that our time has has been valued and our efforts have
00:54:05have been valued because applying applying for a job is emotional and and important. I think it's easy
00:54:08easy to blame AI and AI in hiring hiring has its flaws, but I don't
00:54:12don't think that's the reason people people aren't necessarily reaching
00:54:14reaching human being. Needless to
00:54:17to say, recruitment before AI wasn't wasn't perfect. Far from it. But
00:54:20But there are some particular challenges challenges with what's happening happening now. So it's more like
00:54:24like an arms race now between the the employers and the candidates
00:54:28candidates really, because the employers employers are using AI to sift through through applications and the candidates
00:54:31candidates are using AI to better better their applications for the
00:54:34the role. And essentially it will
00:54:36will just become AI. Reading AI.
00:54:38AI. They would suggest, B yourself
00:54:42yourself and your applications like like have a true voice. But then
00:54:45then at the same time, when you actually
00:54:47actually do that, you just get instantly instantly rejected. AI isn't responsible
00:54:51responsible for every challenge with with job hunting, and it may prove
00:54:55prove very helpful, but clearly there there are issues. And as the genie
00:54:59genie is out of the bottle, it's it's not a question of if it's used.
00:55:02used. It's very much about how. You
00:55:04You get behind. If you don't use
00:55:07use AI today in this market, it's
00:55:10it's a must. Unfortunately. Yeah. I guess it's a shame, but I
00:55:13I guess it's reality as well. Like Like a survival of the fittest now
00:55:16now really it's like you either use use AI with your applications with
00:55:20with the keywords or you don't. And And at the end of the day, everyone everyone wants the job. Everyone
00:55:24Everyone wants to get to that opportunity opportunity where they can speak speak to the human. And if that means
00:55:28means having to use the tool to better better yourself, that's the cost
00:55:32cost at the current state. Ikaros
00:55:35Ikaros at Ros Atkins there. And if if you want to watch more of his
00:55:38his videos, you can go to the BBC BBC News YouTube channel where more
00:55:42more of his video explainers are are there. Just going to give you
00:55:45you an update on those crucial regional
00:55:48regional elections in Germany. And And Germany's Chancellor Friedrich Friedrich Merz says he takes responsibility
00:55:52responsibility for what he's as a
00:55:55a disastrous showing for his party party in those latest state elections.
00:55:58elections. Exit polls at the moment moment suggest his Christian Democrats
00:56:01Democrats have barely scraped enough enough votes to enter parliament
00:56:04parliament in the northeastern state state of Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania.
00:56:07Pomerania. Sam Simmons is up next. next. That's it
00:59:44MUSIC
01:00:12Live from London. This is BBC
01:00:15News. Exit polls in two state elections elections in Germany show big losses
01:00:19losses for Chancellor. Merz's CDU CDU party. He describes the result
01:00:23result as a disaster for his party
01:00:25party as AfD and Die Linke make gains.
01:00:29gains. Earl Spencer tells the BBC, BBC, writing his book
01:00:36Writing his book about his sister Princess Diana was his duty duty as an eyewitness to history history and defends claims he made
01:00:40made about the King. I'm reporting reporting every word in this book.
01:00:43book. I report exactly as I saw it
01:00:44it and felt it at the time, and I
01:00:48I was surprised at the giddiness giddiness of his tone. That's what
01:00:51what I'm recording there. At least
01:00:54least two people are killed in the
01:00:56the Moscow region in a massive Ukrainian Ukrainian drone attack. Russia says says it's an attempt