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00:00:00Business on BBC News. Make the connection.
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00:00:18These are the latest headlines headlines from BBC News, exit polls
00:00:21polls and two state elections in in Germany show big losses for Chancellor
00:00:25Chancellor Merkel's CDU party. He He describes the results as a disaster
00:00:29disaster for his party as the AfD
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00:00:34Earl Spencer tells the BBC, writing writing his book about his sister
00:00:37sister Princess Diana was his duty duty as an eyewitness to history
00:00:40history and defends claims made about about the King. These two people
00:00:44people are killed in the Moscow region region after a massive Ukrainian
00:00:47Ukrainian drone attack overnight. overnight. The mayor of Moscow claims
00:00:51claims 450 drones were directed at at the city. Russia says it's an
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00:00:58elections. Ed Sheeran apologises apologises to fans for what he calls
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00:01:18business news from the boardroom boardroom or grassroots BBC News News cuts through the jargon to add
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00:01:32technology. Talking Business. Hello
00:01:35Hello and welcome to Talking Business. Business. Here's what's on the programme
00:01:38programme this week. If we wheel wheel around you can see the rows
00:01:42rows of soundproof booths where the
00:01:44the scammers all worked. And elsewhere elsewhere in this building there
00:01:47there are many other rooms with police police stations purporting to be
00:01:50be from other countries. This is
00:01:53is scamming on an industrial scale. scale. As the cost of cyber fraud
00:01:56fraud and financial scams hits hundreds hundreds of billions of dollars.
00:02:00dollars. There are growing calls calls for governments to treat the
00:02:03the threat as a national security
00:02:05security issue. Cyber related crimes
00:02:08crimes have become the priority for
00:02:11for member countries of Interpol
00:02:14Interpol around the globe. This threat threat is growing in numbers. It's
00:02:18It's growing also in complexity. complexity. As bad actors get hold
00:02:22hold of powerful new technology and
00:02:24and join forces with hostile states. states. On this programme, we'll
00:02:27we'll assess the scale of the threat threat and ask what needs to change
00:02:30change to keep our money, our businesses
00:02:33businesses and our financial systems systems safe. Georgia Jones is a
00:02:37a finance and security expert at
00:02:38at the UK's Royal United Services
00:02:41Services Institute. Greg Jones ran ran Interpol's cybercrime division
00:02:44division for five years and tells tells me what he found working with
00:02:47with law enforcers around the world. world. And what about the risks to
00:02:51to critical infrastructure and transport transport systems? I'll speak to
00:02:54to the boss and pioneer of self-driving
00:02:57self-driving truck company, plus
00:02:58plus AI, about the threat of cyber
00:03:01cyber attacks on vehicles. Wherever
00:03:07Wherever you're watching, welcome welcome to the programme. Now, earlier earlier this year, authorities in
00:03:11in Thailand took BBC journalists journalists and other news organisations
00:03:14organisations into land that they'd they'd captured during their conflict
00:03:17conflict with Cambodia. The destination destination was a compound revealing
00:03:21revealing an abandoned international international scam factory. Inside,
00:03:24Inside, cameras went into rooms appearing appearing to be Vietnamese banks.
00:03:28banks. An Australian police station station as well as artefacts like
00:03:31like Chinese police officer
00:03:35shirts. Yeah. Well, Cambodia is often often referred to in the fraud community
00:03:39community as Cambodia. It's been been estimated that revenue from
00:03:41from fraud now accounts for about about a quarter of the country's
00:03:45country's GDP, and it is not alone.
00:03:47alone. Global losses from fraud hit
00:03:50hit more than $440 billion last year,
00:03:53year, and it's getting worse at Interpol, Interpol, the International Police
00:03:56Police network fraud notices have
00:03:57have risen by more than 50% since
00:04:00since 2024. Nearly half the world's world's population is targeted by
00:04:04by a scammer each week. Here in the
00:04:07the UK, attacks on businesses by
00:04:08by hackers demanding a ransom last last year devastated operations at
00:04:12at retailers like Marks and Spencer Spencer and the co-op, as well as
00:04:16as the car giant Jaguar Land Rover. Rover. That attack alone cost billions
00:04:20billions of dollars. And all of this this is highlighted in a special
00:04:23special report from the UK's Royal Royal United Services Institute.
00:04:26Institute. It reveals how technology technology has changed the face of
00:04:30of fraud, how areas like the Costa Costa del Sol in Spain have become
00:04:34become centres where hostile states states and organisations can order
00:04:37order fraud operations and launder launder money in the way that most
00:04:40most of us may order a taxi or an
00:04:43an Uber. The report also says that
00:04:46that as well as powerful technology technology collaboration between between gangs and hostile states
00:04:49states means that the issue is no no longer just a matter of criminality
00:04:53criminality but also one of national national security. My first guest
00:04:57guest is from the Finance and Security
00:04:59Security Centre of the Royal United United Services Institute and one
00:05:02one of the leading researchers in in this area, Georgie Jones. Welcome
00:05:06Welcome to Talking Business. Good Good to have you here. And give me
00:05:08me a sense of what changes if governments
00:05:12governments consider treat cybercrime
00:05:14cybercrime as a national security
00:05:16security risk rather than just criminality.
00:05:18criminality. Yes. So what changes
00:05:21changes is a greater mobilisation mobilisation of resources and more
00:05:25more concerted effort toward the the problem at hand? So we've seen
00:05:28seen with the way that fraud is categorised categorised as a national security
00:05:31security risk in the UK since 2023,
00:05:342023, there's been a much greater greater mobilisation of resources
00:05:37resources and a lot more cross-government cross-government effort. So ideally
00:05:40ideally we would see this conceptualisation
00:05:42conceptualisation of fraud as a national national security risk spreading spreading throughout the rest of
00:05:46of the world too. And where is that
00:05:48that threat coming from? Who are are the people perpetrating these
00:05:52these crimes? So the evidence that
00:05:54that we have suggests that this is
00:05:56is largely being directed by organised
00:05:58organised criminal factions. Now
00:06:01Now there is also a degree of complicity
00:06:04complicity from political elites, elites, particularly if you're looking looking at those larger scam compounds
00:06:08compounds that are operating. They
00:06:11They necessarily have to have some
00:06:13some form of complicity coming in, in, but that can exist on a continuum.
00:06:17continuum. So you can have low level level operatives being paid to give
00:06:20give tip offs about upcoming raids, raids, for example, but it can go
00:06:23go all the way up to state involvement
00:06:27involvement as it was in Myanmar. Myanmar. There was the Korean border border guard were found to actually
00:06:31actually be providing muscle for for some of these scam compounds.
00:06:33compounds. So it's incredibly concerning, concerning, but it's not necessarily
00:06:36necessarily being used as a state, state, like as a tool of statecraft,
00:06:39statecraft, just to qualify that. that. But it appears that it's organised
00:06:43organised criminal factions. And And for those larger operations,
00:06:46operations, there's some degree of of complicity from political elites.
00:06:50elites. And how much more sophisticated sophisticated do you think these these operations have become given?
00:06:54given? I guess technology is changing
00:06:56changing all the time, but the sophistication sophistication of these means that
00:06:59that it is potentially much easier easier for people to fall victim
00:07:02victim and maybe not just even individuals, individuals, but big organisations
00:07:05organisations too. Yeah. Most definitely. definitely. I mean, if you look at
00:07:07at the way that artificial intelligence intelligence has changed the game, game, you're not going to be getting
00:07:11getting a suspicious email with terrible terrible grammar from a prince any
00:07:15any more. They've entirely moved moved on and they've been able to
00:07:18to craft really compelling campaigns campaigns and targeting lots of different
00:07:22different audiences as well. So like like you rightly say, businesses
00:07:26businesses being targeted. And it's it's something that unfortunately
00:07:28unfortunately we expect to increase increase in the coming years. If
00:07:31If you look at the return on investment
00:07:33investment for a fraudster, you might might have to work with a single
00:07:37single human for months on a romance romance scam to actually get any
00:07:39any transfer of value. And then you're you're looking at sums that are maybe
00:07:43maybe tens of thousands, possibly possibly even hundreds of thousands thousands of pounds. But all you
00:07:46you need is one fake invoice to go go through and you could potentially potentially be looking at hundreds
00:07:50hundreds of thousands of pounds. pounds. So just for the basic incentives
00:07:53incentives that are at play, it's it's likely that we're going to see
00:07:56see that increasing to. And when
00:07:58when you look around the world, where where is getting the response right?
00:08:02right? Where is it has got a handle handle on how to tackle this. So
00:08:05So over the course of our research, research, we saw a lot of really
00:08:09really interesting examples. There's There's the obvious ones like the
00:08:12the UK has a wonderful fraud strategy.
00:08:16strategy. The UK, Australia, Singapore Singapore those are the examples
00:08:18examples that are often touted. But But even in places like the Philippines
00:08:22Philippines and South Africa, there's there's really interesting initiatives
00:08:24initiatives that are in place in
00:08:27in terms of having that broader cohesive cohesive strategy that's mobilising
00:08:31mobilising the entirety of government. government. There aren't a huge amount
00:08:34amount of those examples out there there as of yet, but they're definitely
00:08:38definitely in development. And so so if you're an organisation watching watching this right now saying, yes,
00:08:42yes, you know, I know I should be
00:08:44be taking cyber security more seriously. seriously. Where do they start? What
00:08:48What should they be concerned and and dealing with? What can they put
00:08:51put in place right now? I think the
00:08:54the first thing is to just have a
00:08:57a look at your own internal processes
00:08:59processes and think like a fraudster
00:09:02fraudster before they do so you want want to be trying to map out where
00:09:05where the vulnerabilities are in
00:09:07in your unique system. And secondly,
00:09:11secondly, I would say it's actually actually really important to reach reach out to your competitors to
00:09:14to look at. Across industry and to to be sharing information. Fraudsters
00:09:17Fraudsters take advantage of the the fact that we're not speaking
00:09:20speaking to each other. And if you you have a much clearer picture of
00:09:23of the threat as it's manifesting manifesting not just in your individual
00:09:26individual firm, but looking at across across the industry, it's going to
00:09:29to make it a lot easier for you to to hopefully plug in those vulnerabilities.
00:09:33vulnerabilities. Georgia Jones, really really good to talk to you on the the programme this week. Thanks for
00:09:36for being with us. Thank you for for having me, Ben. My next guest
00:09:39guest has been at the forefront of of the fight against cybercrime and
00:09:42and fraud for most of his career,
00:09:44career, including five years as the the director of cybercrime at Interpol.
00:09:48Interpol. Greg Jones, welcome back back to Talking Business. It's good
00:09:51good to see you. You've met and had had to deal with some pretty unpleasant
00:09:54unpleasant people in your time at at Interpol. Talk to me about how
00:09:58how that threat has changed and maybe maybe resource is moving away from
00:10:01from what we might consider to be
00:10:03be traditional organised crime to
00:10:06to cybercrime and scams that is evolving evolving all the time. But it's changed
00:10:10changed significantly, hasn't it?
00:10:11it? Yeah, absolutely. When we look
00:10:14look at the sort of the early cyber cyber scams, they were pretty basic
00:10:18basic effectively. But sometimes sometimes we still fall for those
00:10:22those basic sort of crimes. But when when you look at these criminal ecosystems
00:10:25ecosystems now as the digital technology
00:10:29technology has evolved, you know, know, businesses and normal businesses
00:10:32businesses are able to operate globally
00:10:34globally from your own home now.
00:10:36now. So criminals are just leveraging leveraging that same technology and
00:10:39and they've got a really decentralised decentralised way of working. So
00:10:42So you look at these modern technology technology companies that they have, have, you know, they don't have people
00:10:46people all coming into one office. office. Well, criminals do it the
00:10:48the same. They look for the infrastructure infrastructure so they look to see
00:10:52see what platforms they can leverage. leverage. They look for people as
00:10:55as well. So how can they get people people to work directly for them?
00:10:58them? Because you know, there is is a skill shortage in this space.
00:11:02space. So they can either try and and trick people to work for them, them, say, look, you know, we're
00:11:06we're doing some penetration testing testing at the moment. Here's a contract, contract, here's a company you need
00:11:10need to go and look at. Can you get get into their networks? Can you
00:11:13you get us access? But the other other thing we're seeing now from
00:11:16from these criminal groups is, is is that human trafficking. So they're
00:11:20they're advertising jobs, you know, know, globally. You think you're you're going to go and get a well-paid
00:11:24well-paid job in Dubai, for example,
00:11:26example, as an it sort of consultant
00:11:29consultant or running, you know, know, helping to run a team. And And in fact, what happens is then
00:11:33then you then get trafficked out out into South East Asia or something
00:11:36something like that and end up being being dropped into a scam compound.
00:11:38compound. So they need the IT skills. skills. They need people to be running
00:11:42running the calls as well. So there's there's a whole different part to
00:11:45to this. And, and the criminals are
00:11:49are building out this ecosystem across across different areas as well. And
00:11:52And you talk about scam compounds. compounds. We've just been looking
00:11:55looking at incredible pictures of
00:11:57of that big scam compound in Cambodia.
00:12:01Cambodia. Where in the world is this this happening? And there are real
00:12:04real hotspots in certain places, places, aren't there? So if there there are, why is it so difficult
00:12:07difficult to tackle them? So I think think maybe we trace back to start
00:12:11start with. We looked at it being being in Russian speaking centres
00:12:14centres to start with. That's sort sort of where it started. You had
00:12:17had whole villages and effectively effectively what happened there is, is, you know, people didn't have
00:12:21have much money, but they had a connection connection to the internet. They
00:12:24They had a connection to the world world and they realised they could
00:12:27could make, you know, pretty significant
00:12:29significant amounts of money by committing
00:12:32committing crime online. So as that
00:12:34that technology has moved out into
00:12:36into the sort of South East Asia's Asia's Africa, the same model has
00:12:40has evolved as well. When you have have poor economic growth in a country,
00:12:44country, you know, one way that you you can bring money in is through
00:12:47through committing crime and online online crime. Being able to do it
00:12:50it in a country which might be a a hard to reach jurisdiction or,
00:12:54or, you know, as law enforcement enforcement as I was previously.
00:12:57previously. You know, we work very
00:12:58very much in a local area, a local
00:13:01local crime area. You worked in your your community. Now you have law
00:13:05law enforcement working on global global investigations that used to
00:13:08to be mainly in sort of a drug importation
00:13:11importation that that higher based, based, commodity based crime. But
00:13:14But now it's online. So again, looking
00:13:16looking at how law enforcement now
00:13:18now has to work, it's a really different
00:13:21different area that judicial outcome outcome is not always achievable.
00:13:25achievable. By that, I mean putting putting a hand on someone's shoulder,
00:13:28shoulder, arresting them and locking locking them up, taking them to court
00:13:31court and then getting a prison sentence sentence for them. Trying to do that
00:13:34that globally is a lot more challenging challenging to try to do that in,
00:13:37in, in Southampton or London, for for example, when you're working
00:13:40working locally. And there's a growing growing focus, of course, on the
00:13:43the crime itself on, on the methods methods of making this money. Is
00:13:47Is there enough focus on what they they do with this money, how they
00:13:51they dispose of it, money laundering laundering and dealing with the proceeds
00:13:55proceeds of this crime. Because it it strikes me there's two very distinct
00:13:58distinct elements to this. You're You're absolutely spot on. I mean, mean, first of all, we have to set
00:14:01set up the infrastructure. So they they need the means to bring that that money in. How do they bring
00:14:05bring that money in? And we're seeing seeing a lot of scams now being set
00:14:08set up where you're paying in virtual virtual currencies or if you're putting
00:14:12putting it through a bank account, account, they move that money really
00:14:14really quickly. So they have a network network that's set up so they can
00:14:17can shift that money around. But But when we look at virtual currencies
00:14:21currencies or bitcoins, for example,
00:14:23example, you can trace that because because you know, always leaves a
00:14:26a trace of where it's gone effectively.
00:14:29effectively. So there's a whole industry industry now looking at how we trace
00:14:32trace this money. And again, it's it's another thing that law enforcement
00:14:35enforcement has to do. So again, again, working with the private sector
00:14:38sector in this space is, is really,
00:14:41really, really important. Being able able to work directly with them.
00:14:44them. But then you have to have the the right information sharing agreements
00:14:48agreements in, you know, it's not not quite as simple as it used to
00:14:51to be. And that's where Interpol
00:14:53Interpol comes into this very much
00:14:55much so that connects globally law
00:14:57law enforcement together. And coming coming back to that money movements, movements, they're looking at different
00:15:01different ways about how they can can trace money quickly and then
00:15:04then get a stop, put on that money money through financial investigation
00:15:08investigation units in countries countries using Interpol channels. channels. We can speed this up a
00:15:12a lot quicker. And then the law enforcement enforcement and that sort of mutual
00:15:16mutual legal assistance that comes comes in afterwards can be followed
00:15:19followed up. And that's more about
00:15:21about time consuming, you know, writing writing out, you know, lawyer's notes
00:15:25notes from one country to another another country as well. So you then
00:15:28then go back to that almost like like that paper and pen effectively
00:15:31effectively in a law enforcement enforcement investigation. Now AI
00:15:35AI is a game changer when it comes
00:15:38comes to the sophistication of some
00:15:39some scams able to replicate, you
00:15:42you know, really realistic details, details, voices, you know, web pages,
00:15:46pages, all that sort of stuff. Is Is it also helping in the fight against
00:15:50against the crime? I mean, does it it work on both sides? Yeah, absolutely.
00:15:53absolutely. Sure. It works on both both sides. But I think what we see
00:15:56see on both sides is the checks and and balances that governments have
00:15:59have to put in place, and law enforcement enforcement has to put in place,
00:16:02place, you know, the cyber criminals criminals don't have those checks checks and balances. They can just
00:16:06just grab the latest technology, technology, they can play around around with it. They can look to
00:16:10to see how they can integrate it it into their criminal business model
00:16:13model and use it really quickly, quickly, really effectively. Law
00:16:17Law enforcement is doing exactly exactly the same thing. It's trying
00:16:18trying to join up maybe systems that
00:16:22that haven't been connected previously, previously, large data sets and really
00:16:25really get into that data and pull
00:16:27pull out that crucial piece of information,
00:16:30information, which can then identify identify those criminals or the infrastructure
00:16:34infrastructure they're using. But But I suppose when you look at how
00:16:37how the criminals set up their networks networks and their operations, they're
00:16:40they're a very agile, almost like like a Start-Up at times they can
00:16:44can move very, very quickly and they they can grow very quickly as well.
00:16:47well. They can move their operations, operations, you know, taking down
00:16:50down one server, bringing another another server up in a different different country very quickly. And
00:16:54And that then makes it more challenging challenging for law enforcement when
00:16:57when they're trying to track and and trace those criminal groups as
00:17:01as well. Are you confident that we
00:17:04we are winning here or are we just just playing whack a mole trying
00:17:06trying to keep this crime down wherever wherever it might pop up, but it
00:17:10it is always there? I mean, what
00:17:12what is your consensus about whether whether we can ever get ahead of
00:17:16of this? So I think. We knew some
00:17:19some fairly emotive language when when we're describing these things.
00:17:21things. We talk about it being a a battle, a war. Can we win? Can't
00:17:25Can't we win? Who's winning? Who's Who's losing? I think for me, the
00:17:28the simple fact is we still have
00:17:31have victims of crime. So that to to me is a loss. They're losing money.
00:17:34money. People are losing their lives lives as well. When we have sextortion sextortion and things like that.
00:17:38that. So when we look at it, I like like to try and draw it back to,
00:17:41to, you know, what are we trying trying to prevent here and how do do we prevent those crimes happening
00:17:45happening in the first instance?
00:17:46instance? How can we work more effectively
00:17:49effectively with the big technology technology companies? So when we
00:17:53we spot something, you know, we can can go to them or what can they do?
00:17:57do? As technology companies, we've we've looked at some of these technology
00:18:00technology companies shifting away
00:18:02away maybe from those checks and
00:18:05and balances in that space because
00:18:07because it is not necessarily a priority priority for them at that moment
00:18:11moment in time, but how can they
00:18:12they be more effective in that space space in protecting their users?
00:18:16users? They might be providing a a platform, but how do we protect
00:18:19protect the users at the end of this this as well? And I think for me,
00:18:23me, more focus on that prevention
00:18:25prevention piece and looking at those those vulnerabilities because even
00:18:28even if we look at how AI is exploiting exploiting those vulnerabilities,
00:18:32vulnerabilities, AI is just a tool. tool. Those vulnerabilities are in
00:18:35in those systems and networks, and and that's what the cybercriminals
00:18:39cybercriminals leverage off. They They go to those vulnerabilities vulnerabilities and systems and networks
00:18:43networks and use those. But also also as humans, we're vulnerable
00:18:46vulnerable as well, and they prey prey on that. So it's not just a
00:18:50a technology problem here. That's That's it's a people problem as well.
00:18:53well. Craig Jones, good to talk to to you on the programme this week. week. Thank you. Thank you very much
00:18:57much indeed. Now when we come back, back, how self-driving vehicles could
00:19:01could become a target for hackers. hackers. I'll ask the boss of a self-driving
00:19:05self-driving truck software company company about facing up to the security
00:19:09security challenges.
00:20:13for world questions. Nigeria truth,
00:20:14truth, trust and fake news on BBC
00:20:18BBC News. MUSIC
00:20:29MUSIC Welcome Welcome back to Talking Business Business Now. Self-Driving vehicles
00:20:31vehicles provide a new challenge challenge for cyber security. And
00:20:34And while a lot of recent discussion discussion has been about cyber taxis
00:20:38taxis and autonomous cars, the real real revolution is in the haulage
00:20:42haulage industry. Autonomous trucking trucking is one of the most complex
00:20:45complex engineering challenges of of our time. But the biggest risk
00:20:48risk isn't just a software bug. It
00:20:50It could be a malicious actor. Imagine
00:20:53Imagine an autonomous 800 £0 truck
00:20:56truck that gets hacked. Well, the the damage could be colossal. So
00:20:59So discuss that. I'm joined by the the chief executive of plus AI. It's
00:21:03It's a company driving automation
00:21:05automation of the transport sector. sector. David welcome to Talking Talking Business. It's good to have
00:21:09have you here. And in this programme programme we're looking at the risk
00:21:12risk from cyber threats to all sorts sorts of businesses big and small
00:21:15small and to the wider economy from from where you're sitting in autonomous
00:21:18autonomous trucks. What does that that mean for you, Ben? Thank you
00:21:21you for having me on for delivering
00:21:25delivering autonomous truck security
00:21:28security and functional safety are
00:21:31are the most important. Two factors
00:21:33factors that for us. So what we are
00:21:36are building is a autonomous driving
00:21:38driving system that can drive a truck,
00:21:41truck, a 800 £0 truck down the highway.
00:21:45highway. So from a reliability and
00:21:47and security and safety point of
00:21:50of view, it is the most fundamental fundamental requirement for us to
00:21:53to design the system. And so how
00:21:54how do you make sure that it is secure.
00:21:57secure. So we design the security security from the very foundation
00:22:00foundation of the system. Every layer
00:22:03layer of the system is designed with
00:22:06with security and anti-hacking in in place. We also have detection
00:22:10detection system in place where we we can detect any intrusion from
00:22:14from a cybersecurity point of view.
00:22:16view. And we will take a proactive
00:22:19proactive action once we detect the the threat. So I suppose the question
00:22:23question is how you prevent hackers hackers getting in there in the first first place. And we were talking
00:22:26talking in this programme about how how the nature of that sort of threat
00:22:29threat has changed. It's no longer longer just about extorting money.
00:22:32money. It's now about taking control control of critical infrastructure.
00:22:35infrastructure. And with a truck truck the size that you're talking talking about here, that could be
00:22:39be a lethal weapon if it was in the
00:22:41the wrong hands. So this is exactly
00:22:43exactly what we're designing to prevent.
00:22:45prevent. So first of all, we're preventing
00:22:49preventing hackers from entering entering the system. At the same
00:22:52same time we're detecting any type
00:22:54type of unintended access or intrusion intrusion to the system. And then
00:22:58then from that point on, every layer
00:23:00layer of the system we are we have
00:23:05have security in place to prevent prevent overriding of what's intended
00:23:08intended for the system to do. And And then we also have system in place
00:23:12place to shut down the entire entire
00:23:15entire truck, the entire system in
00:23:18in case where there is a, you know,
00:23:20know, an undetected or unprevented unprevented intrusion to the system.
00:23:23system. So talk me through what that that process would look like if you
00:23:27you were aware that there was malicious malicious actors in the system, do
00:23:30do those trucks just stop that they they would stop en route or they
00:23:34they brought slowly to a halt. How
00:23:35How does it work? Yeah. So if there
00:23:38there is a fundamentally if there
00:23:40there is a threat or intrusion that's,
00:23:43that's, you know, penetrated multiple multiple layers of the system already.
00:23:46already. Ultimately the system will will essentially detect that and
00:23:50and place the truck into a safe stop
00:23:52stop and stop there for for overall
00:23:56overall humans to come over and to
00:23:58to take over the system. Also, is
00:24:00is it because there is concern too too about where the software is coming
00:24:04coming from? And we've seen this this in other industries too. So
00:24:07So it's not unique to yours, but but potentially some software coming
00:24:10coming from China that has sparked sparked concerns in parts of Europe
00:24:13Europe and the United States. How How do you assuage some of those
00:24:17those concerns? That's a broader broader geopolitical question. You
00:24:19You know, plus AI, where a company company based in the US with branches
00:24:23branches in Europe and that's the the primary market we're addressing
00:24:27addressing us, Europe and Japan. Japan. Now, you are of course, hoping
00:24:30hoping to list publicly and take
00:24:33take that technology to a bigger bigger market. What would that look
00:24:36look like? And I guess what would would you do with the money if you
00:24:39you were able to float? So we're
00:24:41we're on the cusp of a wide adoption
00:24:43adoption and commercialisation of of autonomous driving technology.
00:24:47technology. So going public would would only accelerate our progress
00:24:51progress in the industry. So we're we're very, very excited about becoming
00:24:54becoming a public entity in the in
00:24:56in coming the near future. I mean, mean, it would value the company
00:25:00company at what, about $800 million? million? What would be the first
00:25:04first thing that you can do with with that money that maybe you can't
00:25:08can't do at the moment? So we are
00:25:11are going to use the proceeds to
00:25:13to really accelerate the R&D development
00:25:15development to develop our AI system,
00:25:17system, to be smarter and safer. safer. So we'll continue down that
00:25:21that path. OK. David Lou, really really good to talk to you on the the programme this week. Thank you.
00:25:25you. Thank you Ben. That's all for for this week. For more on the global
00:25:29global economy and the businesses businesses powering it, check out out the BBC News website and app.
00:25:33app. But until next time, thanks thanks for watching and we'll see
00:25:35see you soon. Bye-bye.
00:29:18My dad was a farmer, but he
00:29:20also had a radio talk show for farmers farmers who called in with their
00:29:24their farming problems. He patiently patiently listened to every conflicting
00:29:27conflicting account of what was and and wasn't working. That was really
00:29:30really influential to how I approached approached my journalism. Building
00:29:33Building trust by taking the time time to understand a situation clearly
00:29:37clearly before reporting a story
00:29:39story in a 24 hour news cycle. Patience
00:29:42Patience can be so frustrating, but but it's a crucial tool. I'm Lucy
00:29:46Lucy Hockings on BBC News Now.
00:30:08MUSIC
00:30:17She was the most famous woman
00:30:20in the world. Next to Charles. And
00:30:23And I can't go wrong. He's there
00:30:25there with me. Married into the monarchy.
00:30:29monarchy. Destined to be queen. Her
00:30:33Her campaigning, her chosen causes
00:30:34causes broke convention and touched
00:30:37touched millions of lives. I'm only only trying to highlight a problem
00:30:40problem that's going on all around around the world. That's all. But
00:30:44But that. Fairytale became a nightmare.
00:30:48nightmare. Private unhappiness couldn't couldn't be hidden from the public
00:30:51public glare. Delight in her beloved
00:30:54beloved boys. One a future King came
00:30:58came with constant pursuit by