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00:00:12And now on BBC Persian TV, current affairs.
00:00:16In January 2002, a few weeks
00:00:18after the fall of the first
00:00:22Taliban government, the Kabul Weekly was republished.
00:00:25It was one of the first independent media outlets during a period that
00:00:29led to 20 years of unprecedented media flourishing in Afghanistan
00:00:32and a unique opportunity for Persian-speaking journalism.
00:00:36Fahim Dashty, the editor of this weekly,
00:00:39said: "Without an independent press, a democratic country cannot be
00:00:42built." A few months before that, on September 9,
00:00:452001, he had survived an explosion in which Ahmad Shah
00:00:49Massoud was assassinated. Twenty years later, with the return
00:00:53of the Taliban, this time not as a journalist, but as
00:00:56the spokesperson for the National Resistance Front, he went to Panjshir.
00:01:00On Sunday, September 5, 2021, the news of Fahim
00:01:03Dashty's death arrived. Three days before that, he had
00:01:07given his last interview to me. Now, five
00:01:11years later, with Sayara Dashty, his wife and the director
00:01:14of the Fahim Dashty Foundation, I will talk about his life
00:01:17and journalistic legacy, a generation that had 20 years of unprecedented
00:01:21opportunity to experience media freedom in
00:01:24Afghanistan. I am Farnaz Ghazizadeh, and this is a special
00:01:28interview with Sayara Dashty.
00:01:45Sayara Dashty, welcome to this special interview. Thank
00:01:48you for talking to me. It's been five years since Fahim
00:01:52Dashty was killed. If you want to describe him, what kind of person
00:01:55was he? Hello to you and your viewers.
00:01:58Thank you for your time. I think I should
00:02:02start by talking about a more
00:02:06important topic because I think it's necessary.
00:02:09Here, Fahim Jan started his first work
00:02:12at the Kabul Weekly.
00:02:15Those were the years when the new Islamic
00:02:18government had started its activities,
00:02:21and Fahim Jan, with
00:02:24his colleagues and the team they had,
00:02:28tried to deliver accurate news to the people.
00:02:32And it should be noted that at that time,
00:02:35the founder of the Kabul Weekly
00:02:39was the national hero, the martyr Ahmad Shah Massoud. And this
00:02:42itself shows how much value
00:02:46they placed on youth and media.
00:02:49This was a very
00:02:52valuable experience for Fahim
00:02:55Jan in the media sector.
00:02:59And
00:03:16later, until his martyrdom,
00:03:20he followed that same path and chose
00:03:22it. That is, he made himself
00:03:25from that
00:03:28air. You
00:03:36mentioned Ahmad Shah Massoud. We know how close Fahim Dashty was to Ahmad Shah Massoud,
00:03:39and in the incident
00:03:42that led to the assassination of Mr. Massoud,
00:03:46Mr. Dashty was severely injured, but
00:03:49he survived.
00:03:52Were you familiar with him then? Were you married to him then
00:03:56when he was injured in that
00:04:00explosion? We had already married
00:04:03and had a child, my eldest
00:04:06child, Idris, who was four months old at that time.
00:04:10I can imagine that at that time, communication facilities were not as
00:04:14readily available as they are now. What was your feeling when
00:04:17the news of the assassination
00:04:21came? Indeed, at that time, it was not
00:04:25easy to make contact. Even weeks
00:04:29passed until a message arrived or until
00:04:32news could reach families.
00:04:35As you said, it was very
00:04:39difficult. It was very difficult.
00:04:42I personally did not know immediately,
00:04:46but a day later, when I
00:04:49found out, in a way that they didn't say what,
00:04:53they said it was a very minor thing,
00:04:57and they didn't know about the commander.
00:05:12There was news written about it,
00:05:16and of course, the family knew
00:05:20about this matter. The only one who was unaware
00:05:23was me. After they suddenly
00:05:27told me that we could go back to
00:05:30Tajikistan because my family lived
00:05:33in Tajikistan, only I had come to Panjshir
00:05:37after marrying Fahim Jan to live.
00:05:39It was really
00:06:12difficult until I reached Dushanbe,
00:06:15Tajikistan, and went to the hospital.
00:06:19Then on the way to the hospital,
00:06:23they told me that we were going to the hospital. I
00:06:27asked why. The moment I arrived, that is,
00:06:30afterwards, they said that Fahim Jan
00:06:33was seriously injured. It was then that I
00:06:36became seriously injured afterwards. Of course, I went
00:06:39and saw that Massoud Khalili was there. And Fahim
00:06:43Jan was there. Both of them were in a room
00:06:47in a very difficult situation,
00:06:50and it was something I had never imagined
00:06:54I would encounter. About three or four months later, when the Taliban
00:06:58government fell in Kabul, the first
00:07:01thing Fahim Dashty did was to relaunch
00:07:04the Kabul Weekly, because
00:07:08we know that during the Taliban era, publications were completely banned.
00:07:34After Fahim Jan was transferred from Tajikistan
00:07:38to France for treatment, of course,
00:07:41only four months later. He returned. I don't remember exactly,
00:07:45I think it was four months later, and
00:07:48they started the Kabul Weekly again.
00:07:52They worked on it with the help of the French.
00:07:56They re-established this weekly, and as I
00:07:59said, for Fahim Jan,
00:08:02it was a legacy from Commander Massoud
00:08:06that the Kabul Weekly and its path were his.
00:08:09He had a clear goal.
00:08:13And he dedicated all his time, everything, at a time
00:08:17when he was very sick, his hands were not working
00:08:20at all. His hands could not
00:08:23move, that is, Fahim Jan was so burned in the incident
00:08:26with Commander that
00:08:30his fingers could not move. He was stuck.
00:08:34Despite those problems, despite
00:08:37his physical condition not
00:08:40being good, he started the Kabul Weekly.
00:08:43At that time, many people came back to
00:08:47Afghanistan and started political work, other
00:08:50work. But it is quoted from him that
00:08:53he said in different places that no
00:08:57country can be democratic without independent media.
00:09:01Why did he put all his
00:09:04efforts into journalism? You lived with him. What did
00:09:08he say about journalism? He had a passion
00:09:11for journalism.
00:10:12The media was active. Besides the Kabul Weekly,
00:10:16they also had other courses that were active,
00:10:20which was very difficult at that time.
00:10:23And this was the first weekly that had started its activities,
00:10:27and some young people who were interested would come with
00:10:30such enthusiasm. And Fahim Jan worked
00:10:34with them. That period of the Republic
00:10:37of Afghanistan is an exceptional period in Persian-speaking media
00:10:40in general. It is not even exclusive to
00:10:44Afghanistan, because during that period, the media in Afghanistan
00:10:47was experiencing something that was not even possible
00:10:51for the media in Iran. This is actually an environment where censorship
00:11:25I'm going to cover up, because that's what Fahim Jan shared with me,
00:11:28and I can't not
00:11:32say it. After that,
00:11:35time passed. Time passed.
00:11:38These kinds of times came much more often, where if
00:11:42something was written about a minister, a threat would come from his
00:11:46office, or if any personality
00:11:49was criticized, it was clear that at that
00:11:53time, it was very
00:12:55It was also multilingual, but we know that Fahim Dashty
00:12:59had an exceptional attachment and interest in the Persian
00:13:02language. He was very interested in the Persian language.
00:13:06Did this issue cause
00:13:09a disagreement? That is, he himself was a journalist,
00:13:12he was someone who was really in love with his
00:13:16profession. Fahim Jan's concern was not only Persian-speaking
00:13:19media or the Persian language,
00:13:23but Fahim Jan's concern was how media
00:13:26freedom of expression could
00:13:29reach its quality, that is,
00:13:32truly have freedom of expression.
00:13:35And you are witnesses
00:13:38that after the Kabul Weekly, when he was also the head of the Union
00:13:41of Journalists, Fahim Jan tried very hard in this
00:13:45area, and indeed, as you said,
00:13:49Iran did not even have the freedom
00:13:53that they could
00:13:55truly express themselves freely.
00:13:59Other places where Persian speakers at that
00:14:02time could not express themselves or
00:14:06write in that way. But
00:14:09it should be noted that Fahim Dashty was really someone who tried
00:14:13very hard in this area, in this direction of freedom
00:14:16of expression. He worked very hard with
00:14:20a group of colleagues
00:14:22and friends who, thank God, are still
00:14:25active. How much did Mr. Dashty see himself as a national
00:14:29figure? How much did he see himself
00:14:33as a Tajik
00:14:34figure?
00:14:38Without a doubt, it is clear
00:14:41that but again, I tell you,
00:14:45Fahim Jan's concern was not just Persian. Fahim Jan's concern
00:14:49was true freedom of expression. Fahim Jan's
00:14:52concern was that we could truly
00:14:56have access and freedom
00:14:59of expression in terms of democracy,
00:15:03that it would not be individual,
00:15:06that is, he really wanted
00:15:08to
00:15:11be able to make
00:15:15the best possible
00:15:17replacements in Afghanistan.
00:15:21I ask this because Mr. Dashty,
00:15:25in the last weeks of his life, changed
00:15:28from a journalist to the spokesperson for the resistance front. I want to know
00:15:32how this change happened. As you said, he spent his entire
00:15:35life trying to be a journalist. What happened that he thought
00:15:39it was time to enter
00:15:41a struggle?
00:15:44You know that the years of the Republic
00:15:48went on for a long time, the process of state
00:15:52governance became corrupt. In that way,
00:15:55it should have remained and improved,
00:15:58but on the contrary, it worsened.
00:16:01And Fahim Jan, as far as I
00:16:04used to talk at home.
00:16:11The level of expression had gone up because
00:16:15he didn't want to see that
00:16:19really human rights
00:16:22didn't exist, women's rights didn't exist,
00:16:25and gradually all our values were being
00:16:29trampled. So
00:16:31he decided that he would gradually move
00:16:34towards politics. But then also use
00:16:37the political aspect and also try
00:16:40to succeed as much
00:16:43as possible.
00:16:45This was the only reason. And there is another
00:16:49thing that he was very much looking
00:16:52forward to having a true
00:16:56leader with emotions come
00:16:59to Afghanistan who could save Afghanistan from
00:17:02this situation. I think that at that
00:17:05time, Fahim Jan's decision was to
00:17:09have Mr. Ahmad Massoud return from his studies
00:17:12and start his political
00:17:14work
00:17:18in the field of politics. Why did he stay in Afghanistan
00:17:21and go to Panjshir, while many of the country's political
00:17:24figures had left the country? Many
00:17:28of the resistance front figures were in Tajikistan.
00:17:31بودن
00:17:36Fahim Jan absolutely did not want to leave
00:17:39Afghanistan, especially Panjshir, for any reason,
00:17:43and he absolutely did not want to
00:17:47leave Ahmad Massoud alone, even in
00:17:50our last conversations when he went to Panjshir.
00:17:53بگذارن
00:17:56And he loved Panjshir. He loved his
00:17:59people. That's why if they had
00:18:03the opportunity to leave Panjshir, and
00:18:37And Fahim Jan also had much more chances,
00:18:41but he preferred not to leave the country.
00:18:44He preferred to go to Panjshir and stay
00:18:47with his people. Five years ago, around these days,
00:18:51I conducted Fahim Dashty's last interview with
00:18:54him right here at the BBC. And three
00:18:57days later, he was killed in Panjshir. Were you
00:19:00aware of the circumstances of the interview when
00:19:04you saw it? Were you in contact with him at all?
00:19:11I mean, for a day or two, in total, for a day
00:19:14or two, I was not in contact with them,
00:19:17but otherwise, I had continuous contact
00:19:20with them. Even on the day they were martyred, I
00:19:24was in contact with them until 1:30 in the afternoon,
00:19:27until 1:30 p.m.
00:19:31Afterwards, it was around 3 or 4 o'clock
00:19:34when the news came that Dashty had been martyred.
00:19:56Many narratives reached our ears, especially
00:20:00at that time. You are witness
00:20:03to the fact that many things were
00:20:06brought up and said. It was clear that it was not
00:20:10easy, neither for me nor for the children.
00:20:13Those were very difficult, harsh days, and we still
00:20:17haven't recovered from them. Your reference is to the claim
00:20:21that was made about a number that was shown
00:20:24for a few moments on the TV screen during a Zoom call, and
00:20:28it was said that this helped identify his location. The BBC, of course,
00:20:32said that this number was a Zoom ID and could not
00:20:35pinpoint his location. But you yourself
00:20:38previously spoke to me and said that you had not reached
00:20:41any definitive
00:20:43conclusion about it. Five years after that incident, how
00:20:47do you see it? Why do you think Fahim Dashty's death
00:20:50was accompanied by this news and these issues?
00:20:54Dear Farnaz, if you ask truthfully, I still
00:20:58haven't reached any
00:20:59conclusion.
00:21:03But as far as I and Dashty's friends
00:21:06have investigated and progressed, that is, five years later, I agreed
00:21:10to do an interview with you. This itself shows that
00:21:14perhaps to some extent, we may
00:21:17have found
00:21:50It was not something clearer
00:21:52that we could find so far.
00:21:56I want to go back to Fahim Dashty's
00:21:59legacy. We know that he was a prominent
00:22:03Persian-speaking journalist, as we discussed in this program,
00:22:06not just for Afghanistan, but for Persian
00:22:10journalism as a whole, Fahim Dashty is a very
00:22:14important person. When 20
00:22:17years later, exactly 20 years later, the Taliban
00:22:21came to power, the media returned to the darkness
00:22:25that existed before,
00:22:28during the first Taliban era. What was the
00:22:32legacy of these 20 years, in your opinion? You followed
00:22:36this situation closely, you lived these 20 years closely.
00:22:39What was the legacy of these 20 years for Afghan
00:22:42society, do you think?
00:22:46I think that the 20 years
00:22:49of effort that was made not only in the field
00:22:52of media and freedom
00:22:55of expression, but in every area you can think of,
00:22:58people made their effort.
00:23:01Especially the media. I want to talk specifically about the media.
00:23:0520 years. Currently, I see the situation
00:23:09as much better. Currently, you see
00:23:12people, especially the news that has come out
00:23:15of Afghanistan, they are active and have not allowed
00:23:18که
00:23:50it to be finished, and the 20 years of effort
00:23:53to reach zero. Although the Taliban
00:23:57tried, currently you see that there is no
00:24:00media in Afghanistan that can speak
00:24:04freely and convey its
00:24:07message to the people. There is absolutely
00:24:10no freedom of expression in Afghanistan.
00:24:14But fortunately, those who have left
00:24:17Afghanistan have been able to some extent.
00:24:50They are working, and we want to hold some courses,
00:24:53and one or two courses
00:24:55were successfully completed
00:24:59in the field of media.
00:25:02Especially for the prisoners
00:25:05we have from the media,
00:25:08we are trying to figure out how to address
00:25:11their concerns and advocate for them.
00:25:14And also, especially for girls who have been deprived
00:25:17of education and other
00:25:20things. The first five journalism
00:25:23classes that were started, our effort is to be able to
00:25:27arrange scholarships for
00:25:31them so that they can resume their studies,
00:25:35whether online or in person, so that they can
00:25:38achieve what they want. And it should be noted
00:25:42that currently, we are very busy
00:25:45trying to transfer a number
00:25:49of girls to study journalism
00:25:53outside Afghanistan so that they can continue
00:25:56their education, and God willing, in 2027,
00:26:00we will be able to do this. Sayara Dashty, Director of the
00:26:03Fahim Dashty Foundation, thank you for giving your time
00:26:06to this program. Thank you. You're welcome.
00:26:27They use fake names. Their phones are disposable.
00:26:31And
00:26:47in an era when free and stable access to information
00:26:51is not always guaranteed, BBC Persian, with its weekly
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00:26:58it directly to your email. By subscribing to the BBC
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00:27:18شوید
00:27:22This week's tech news from Click. Do you think there's
00:27:26a connection between the increase in second-hand book sales and
00:27:30artificial intelligence? Some publishers believe that, yes, apparently
00:27:34AI companies have focused on second-hand books. The BBC
00:27:38has spoken to a number of booksellers who say they have received
00:27:41unusual and bulk orders, many of which
00:27:44were for old and low-demand books. Sales of second-hand
00:27:48books have increased globally in recent months, but not just
00:27:51bestsellers. Booksellers say they are receiving
00:27:55large orders for books that some of them
00:27:58haven't had customers for years. One bookseller
00:28:02told the BBC that they usually
00:28:04sell 2-3,000 books a week, but recently, a single
00:28:08Canadian company placed an order equivalent to a week's sales.
00:28:12But where are these books going
00:28:16and why are so many books, even old and low-demand books,
00:28:19being bought all at once? One hypothesis is that some
00:28:23of these books are being bought to train artificial intelligence,
00:28:27because AI models need a very large
00:28:30amount of data for training. This happens at
00:28:34a time when the discussion about using books to train AI
00:28:37has already made headlines. One of the important examples
00:28:41is Anthropik, the creator of the Claude chatbot.
00:28:45During a lawsuit this company had in the US, documents were
00:28:49released that showed Anthropik had access to a large
00:28:52collection of books to train its AI models. These documents
00:28:56describe a process for extensive scanning of books.
00:28:59A process in which the spine of a book may be cut
00:29:03so that the pages can be scanned at high speed,
00:29:06and then the rest of the book is sent
00:29:10for recycling. Anthropik has stated that it has no plans
00:29:13to buy and destroy rare or antique books. But this
00:29:17very possibility is the main concern of booksellers. The concern
00:29:20is that books are bought only for their content.
00:29:23That is, they are scanned, their information is entered
00:29:26into AI systems, and then the physical book itself is destroyed.
00:29:30For a book that has millions of copies, this
00:29:34might not be a big deal. But if an old book
00:29:36has only a few copies left, destroying even
00:29:40one copy could mean the permanent loss of a
00:29:44part of written heritage. If you are active in the technology
00:29:47field or interested in artificial intelligence,
00:29:51send me a message on
00:29:52Instagram and write your comments.
00:29:57Click, every week on BBC
00:29:59Persian.
00:30:20Headlines. Trump's
00:30:23claim about Tehran's insistence on a quick agreement,
00:30:27simultaneously, the US re-sanctioned a sanctioned Russian bank
00:30:30due to its connection with Iran.
00:30:33Well, this was an opportunity
00:30:36that Iran and Oman
00:30:39provided.
00:30:41Iran's claim about the reason for canceling its meeting
00:30:45with the Persian Gulf countries in Oman. The Ministry
00:30:48of Foreign Affairs spokesperson says it was at
00:30:51Saudi Arabia's request.
00:30:54The rioters in fact, a threat.