Google Cloud Speech-to-Text API (Chirp) + Gemini 2.5 Flash Non-Thinking. Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:26the Iranian government's system for monitoring opponents outside the country with
00:00:30Alaj. Is the government trying to expand repression and threats abroad
00:00:34from its borders? We ask a former writer and political prisoner
00:00:38why the focus on opponents and critics of the Islamic Republic abroad
00:00:42has increased. We also ask a lawyer
00:00:44whether these actions and threats have a legal basis.
00:00:48اقدام و تهدید ها مبنای حقوقی
00:00:57in an effort to counter the Houthis. Yemen's president
00:01:01emphasized free navigation in Bab el-Mandeb.
00:01:04کرد.
00:01:07Four years after the start of the Women, Life,
00:01:10Freedom movement in Iran, what a difficult path women have traveled and
00:01:13what their achievements have been. After
00:01:16the Mahsa uprising, it seems that the hijab situation has improved,
00:01:19but no law for optional hijab has been approved. As a woman,
00:01:23I am still obliged to wear a headscarf and even a chador
00:01:27in government offices.
00:01:29Soaring prices of stationery and books on the eve
00:01:33of schools reopening in Iran. Last year, one million students
00:01:36gave up on education.
00:01:38زدند
00:01:41Security warning from three Western countries about
00:01:44the Iranian government's new spyware. The US, UK,
00:01:48and Netherlands say the goal is to collect information from activists,
00:01:51opponents, and journalists.
00:01:54است.
00:02:18a system called Alaj. A system to monitor
00:02:21Iranians abroad. Apparently,
00:02:25it is intended to deal with those they call traitors to the homeland,
00:02:28and even revoke their citizenship privileges.
00:02:31The call to identify opponents is a familiar
00:02:35pattern whose history goes back to the first years of the revolution
00:02:39and in recent years has been used to identify protesters
00:02:42against compulsory hijab. However,
00:02:46it is still unclear which body is responsible for the new
00:02:50system and how the personal information published in it
00:02:53was obtained. What is the goal of the Islamic Republic in taking
00:02:57such actions at this time? Can it control
00:03:00Iranians abroad through intimidation and legal cases?
00:03:04We will talk more about this. First, let's go to Farzad Saifikaran, my colleague
00:03:08from the BBC verification department who has researched this system.
00:03:12Farzad, what have your investigations
00:03:15revealed about the details of this system? Well, Farnoosh,
00:03:19we have examined the Alaj system platforms
00:03:22that were released last night. Even the state broadcasting organization
00:03:26published a detailed report on this last night. This is part of the website.
00:03:30If we go back to the previous image,
00:03:32we can actually see that
00:03:36a lot of personal information about Iranians abroad
00:03:39has been publicly released. Their pictures are
00:03:43there, and if we go back to that same image, these pictures,
00:03:47of course, their faces are not blurred, we blurred them to protect
00:03:50their identity. But well, it's clear from the name, it's a kind
00:03:54of threat, it asks people
00:03:57to report Iranians abroad and those who are somehow political opponents of the government
00:04:01or are in conflict with the government,
00:04:04and to provide any personal information they have about them
00:04:08to the Alaj system and they will publish it.
00:04:12When we were examining this system, we
00:04:15actually saw that there was
00:04:18very detailed information about these
00:04:21individuals. If we can go to the next image, we can
00:04:25see that a profile has been created for each person, like
00:04:28what is here. This profile, in addition to having the person's picture,
00:04:32contains very personal information such as date of birth,
00:04:36place of residence, father's name, and even national
00:04:39ID or their job, the university they study at, all
00:04:42of them are registered there. It is clear how they obtained
00:04:46this information. This is a very important question that we still don't know,
00:04:50but since this system has asked people
00:04:53to provide this information to them, meaning that it has actually
00:04:57asked citizens to spy on other citizens,
00:05:00some of this information may have been obtained through
00:05:03the relatives of these individuals or other people who are somehow familiar
00:05:07with them, because on this page we even see that a large number of
00:05:10social media posts of these individuals
00:05:14are placed here. Even their family photos,
00:05:17photos of their children, or even in one case,
00:05:21there are references to the family relationships of these individuals, which shows
00:05:24how much this information has been collected and categorized.
00:05:28Now, this very personal information is being publicly
00:05:31displayed, and this, of course, raises many
00:05:35concerns because it encourages citizens to spy on each other.
00:05:39One thing that I noticed when I looked at this website
00:05:43is that it is not clear who is responsible
00:05:46for and runs this website and this
00:05:50whole system. Have you found anything
00:05:53in your research? Exactly, we still haven't been able to come to a conclusion
00:05:57in this regard, but
00:06:00there is a very important point, Farnoosh, when we look
00:06:04at this website, a lot of content related
00:06:08to the judiciary has been published here. Even threats against
00:06:12Iranians abroad who are opponents of the government have been raised
00:06:15here. It is somehow referred to laws that
00:06:19the judiciary has recently approved or the Iranian parliament has approved,
00:06:23such as the law on increasing the punishment for spies
00:06:26or combating enemy agents, which the judiciary
00:06:29has constantly referred to confiscation of property in recent
00:06:33months, especially after the war, but it is still
00:06:36not clear which government
00:06:39or security body in Iran the Alaj system
00:06:43belongs to. They haven't even announced anything about it on this website.
00:06:46Is it clear what the purpose of this project
00:06:50is? The purpose of this project is, in a way,
00:06:54to create intimidation and actually identify
00:06:57opponents. For example, they said
00:07:00that they have identified and monitored 1600
00:07:04people, and as it is clear here,
00:07:07600 of them were identified through
00:07:11public reports. The information of 60
00:07:13people has been published on this website so far,
00:07:17and it has been said that judicial action has been taken against 40 people,
00:07:21and what kind of judicial action is this? It mentions
00:07:24that, for example, their property in
00:07:27Iran may be confiscated, out-of-turn trials may be held
00:07:30for them, their citizenship rights may be revoked,
00:07:33which can be very broad because, after all, even Iranians abroad have
00:07:37rights as Iranian citizens,
00:07:40or it refers to temporary detention, which may mean
00:07:44that if they want to return to Iran, they may be
00:07:48arrested. As it is also mentioned on the website,
00:07:52they are actually emphasizing the law on increasing the punishment
00:07:55for espionage and cooperation with the Zionist regime, which they mean
00:07:59Israel, the language that the Islamic Republic uses,
00:08:02is actually equating any kind of opposition
00:08:17However, Mehdi Aslani, writer and
00:08:25heard Farzad's explanations about the details of this system.
00:08:29Do you think why the Islamic Republic has deemed
00:08:33it necessary at this time to, while intensifying internal repression,
00:08:36also create restrictions for Iranians abroad
00:08:40and want to control them?
00:08:51targeting those abroad, contrary to the tradition
00:08:54of the government's confrontation with those abroad in previous
00:08:57years, where their operations were limited to selective
00:09:01assassinations abroad. More than anything else,
00:09:04the governmental Alaj is trying to display
00:09:07an aspect of its power externally.
00:09:11We are everywhere, we have a powerful
00:09:14presence, and in fact,
00:09:17the message to at least a part of the opposition
00:09:21is that we have a vast army,
00:09:24it doesn't matter where you are, we have the power to see
00:09:28from Hyde Park to Toronto, Washington, and Frankfurt. We have eyes and ears
00:09:31everywhere, which is of course based on espionage.
00:09:35The primary function of such schemes and their public
00:09:38announcement is to cast a shadow
00:09:41of fear over those abroad so that out of fear
00:09:44of the subsequent consequences, they will stop
00:09:47their activities or participation in gatherings. Here too,
00:09:51let's really pause on this issue,
00:09:54that the punishments they announced
00:09:58may not be applicable to
00:10:00exiles and political refugees
00:10:03and may mostly affect others. The second
00:10:07function of this Alaj
00:10:10issue is to create
00:10:13theoretical conflict and schism within the entire opposition.
00:10:16Externalizing this government action is both a declaration
00:10:19of power and a creation of a kind of suspicion, to show that we have
00:10:23secret agents that you don't know. Mr. Aslani,
00:10:27if, as you say, the government's goal is to send the message
00:10:31that we are everywhere and our eyes are on
00:10:34all Iranians here, why is there no
00:10:38transparency about who runs
00:10:41this system? You see, we are witnessing
00:10:44one of the most complex crises in the history of the Islamic Republic's
00:10:48rule. It is not clear who the mastermind
00:10:51is, a kind of command in the shadows
00:10:55which, by the way, in these circumstances, helps
00:10:58this chaotic structure of the government, which has been intertwined
00:11:01with crisis from the first day and lives with crisis.
00:11:05This structure, without accountability,
00:11:08can at any moment overturn the table,
00:11:12saying that the intention was this, not that, the captain's policy was something
00:11:16else, the leader's opinion was something else. In fact, this structure and the military-security
00:11:19oligarchy, by not officially accepting responsibility,
00:11:23has freed itself from the consequences
00:11:26and accountability, unlike the era in the 1980s
00:11:30during Ruhollah Khomeini's time or the first three decades
00:11:33of Ali Khamenei's leadership, when major decisions
00:11:37were usually made through
00:11:39speeches and messages he delivered. This system,
00:11:43in its orphanhood and lack of ownership, due
00:11:46to this creation arising from the physical absence
00:11:50of the leader and
00:11:53executive and strategic
00:12:00power, has actually entrusted it to a network of security and military Revolutionary Guards, a fragmented structure that,
00:12:04under the pretext of
00:12:06a wartime situation, can stifle any voice.
00:12:10We are witnessing that
00:12:13this system has come
00:12:17and encouraged people to provide information
00:12:20about each other. A pattern that
00:12:23you probably remember was implemented in the 1980s
00:12:27and was used again later. Do you think
00:12:31the same pattern is being implemented, or is the situation
00:12:35now very different from the 1980s and such methods
00:12:39may not yield the desired results
00:12:42for the government? You see, more than anything else, the name of this monitoring
00:12:46and intelligence system, Alaj, itself indicates its nature and content.
00:12:49They cannot manifest the 1980s.
00:12:53What needs to be found
00:13:00in the evaluation is the solution
00:13:03by the government's security operators. More than anything,
00:13:07the government is trying to cure a cancer that has metastasized
00:13:10with a home remedy. Of course, it is resorting
00:13:13to, as your report mentioned, resorting to the always-present
00:13:16ummah, which has a long history,
00:13:20dating back to the era of madness in the 1980s.
00:13:23The calling of the 36-million-strong ummah,
00:13:27the intelligence network, the 20-million-strong army,
00:13:31Khomeini's charisma, after all, there was a significant
00:13:34social base among a considerable part of society and his supporters.
00:13:37But today is completely different, especially
00:13:41in this leaderless government, where we no longer have any
00:13:44decisive word. In fact, especially
00:13:48the young people of the homeland and the Iranian people are in a
00:13:51confrontation with the government in the government's non-existence.
00:13:55The government only wants to push this back.
00:13:59This is actually nothing but propaganda
00:14:01and nothing but a public
00:14:05image of creating a kind of
00:14:08intimidation. That is, when
00:14:11a 250,000-toman dollar has turned grocery stores into
00:14:14museums, a large part of the urban poor go
00:14:18to watch from behind the glass. The 1980s, even with
00:14:22mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, is impossible.
00:14:47that arises now is that, well, this system
00:14:50does not have a clear authority
00:14:54currently announced.
00:15:04and similar cases, can they actually
00:15:08legally pursue and implement
00:15:11such a process?
00:15:15I would like to say, before I say whether they can legally or not, because
00:15:18essentially, the law is a tool for them and they don't even need the law
00:15:22when they want to commit a crime or perpetrate
00:15:26it, I will say that since last night when I saw this system
00:15:29with the term Alaj, I remembered Mr. Mohammad Javad Zarif,
00:15:33who used to say, if a crime has occurred, tell us so we can try to justify it.
00:15:37But this time it is preemptive,
00:15:41meaning that Alaj itself is the prelude to the commission of a crime.
00:15:44A crime against the privacy of citizens,
00:15:48promoting defamation, and violating the minimum
00:15:52rights of people to life, such as consular
00:15:55rights or confiscation of property under this pretext.
00:15:59Secondly, when a system
00:16:02is launched, we must see how new this event
00:16:06or decision is. Then we must see who founded it.
00:16:10Firstly, the idea that such a system, named Alaj
00:16:14or any other name, with this certainty, you report it, we will take
00:16:17decisive action, which is not clear where the judicial
00:16:20process, the police process, the judicial
00:16:24process will take place. If I report it, you immediately take action. What does that even mean?
00:16:28It means that all citizens against each other, regardless of this,
00:16:31it also has a background. Even if this time they don't say who is responsible for it,
00:16:35none of us forget,
00:16:37we have 110 for the police, we have
00:16:40113 for the Ministry of Intelligence, meaning
00:16:43you report to the Ministry of Intelligence with 113. This has been around
00:16:47for over 30 years. In the past two or three decades,
00:16:51114 was also added for the Basij,
00:16:55and it still exists. Meaning, the Basij, which they say is a popular force,
00:16:58but it is an armed force, it receives its budget from the government,
00:17:02it is under the command of the IRGC, it is one of the security
00:17:06forces. The mere fact that I, for example, report against you,
00:17:09can this be the basis for the judiciary
00:17:12to issue a verdict against you?
00:17:16That's the point. That's the history. Meaning, previously, if you reported
00:17:20to the 114 Basij, the Basij, whose job was not
00:17:23legal, whose job was not judicial, had to act as an agent, but they were not
00:17:26an agent. Later, they changed their title to agent so they could do this.
00:17:30But in practice, from A to Z, the case
00:17:33was in the hands of the Basij, the IRGC,
00:17:40you asked a good question. You see, fundamentally, in classical terms,
00:17:44for someone to be responsible for anything, an incident,
00:17:47a crime must occur, and this crime must be proven
00:17:51by the police. The evidence must be collected,
00:17:54the accused must be identified, and the court, as the judicial
00:17:58authority, must convert the individual and criminal responsibility
00:18:01of the accused, if there is a suspect or accused,
00:18:05into a convicted criminal. None of these processes happen here.
00:18:30The second circle was the instances of media and media
00:18:33figures, which included all these people and media.
00:18:37And the third circle recently was this fight against infiltration
00:18:41that they had raised. This plan to fight infiltration,
00:18:44although it hasn't become law yet, these three are practically
00:18:48like triangles that are security circles that target
00:18:51all citizens, especially activists in the diaspora,
00:18:55because they used to prefer their opponents to leave the country
00:18:58so that, as they say, they wouldn't bother them. Now they have seen
00:19:02that these people have mobilized in the diaspora, gained
00:19:05power, and can advocate. Now they want to deprive them of the minimum
00:19:08consular services, from property to criminalization
00:19:12and considering them spies, all against each other.
00:19:15In this system, the
00:19:18terms used, such as "anti-homeland," "sanction
00:19:22supporter," "traitors," these, after all, do not have a clear
00:19:26legal definition, they are very simple.
00:19:29In this case, isn't it possible that anyone, even if they are not a critic
00:19:33or opponent, simply because they have an activity or
00:19:37an opinion, will be considered
00:19:40an accused?
00:19:42100% exactly. In principle, when we talk about the legality
00:19:46of crime and punishment, the crime must be defined in law,
00:19:50its instances precisely, and the punishment in the same way.
00:19:53If we are to proceed with this trend, decisions are actually
00:19:57being made and actions are being taken by a government
00:20:01that is "anti-homeland" in this government. That is, it fundamentally lacks a national perspective,
00:20:05a purely Shiite Islamic and ideological perspective
00:20:08on the people of Iran. Here, in fact, nationalist
00:20:12movements should come forward more and claim, discuss
00:20:16whether it is really correct that non-legal terms
00:20:19of slaughter should enter principles that lead to confiscation of property,
00:20:23dehumanization of people, then condemnation to death,
00:20:27and execution in the name of the homeland from a country that
00:20:31believes not in the nation, but in the ummah. This is the first point. The second is that
00:20:35the terms used here are not only selective and
00:20:38murderous, but also fundamentally not legal, because the issue
00:20:42of homeland, the issue of treason, is something that they talk
00:20:45about in terms of patriotism or love of homeland, none of which
00:20:49are defined anywhere in the laws. Moreover, who can
00:20:53prove that the person who reports does not have a personal
00:20:56vendetta? Many of these things are
00:20:59not new either. For example, in America in the 1950s,
00:21:02we had McCarthyism, where out of fear of Soviet influence,
00:21:05all citizens were turned against each other, or in
00:21:09Germany, the Stasi, what they did was turn all citizens
00:21:12into security suspects, all against each other. This "divide and rule"
00:21:16is a historical pattern of rotten politics.
00:21:20But why does the government do this? Because it cannot control
00:21:23its own surroundings. All this infiltration, all these actions,
00:21:27all these espionage issues, actually went all the way to the IRGC Intelligence
00:21:30and the Supreme Leader's office. That's why many people were exposed
00:21:34and then came to power, and many of them gave information
00:21:48decisively to attacks by Yemen's Houthis. According to Riyadh,
00:21:5213 people were wounded in Saudi Arabia in the latest
00:21:55attacks by the Iran-backed group. The Houthis have recently, in addition
00:21:59to renewing attacks on Saudi Arabia, seized strategic
00:22:02points on the western coast of Yemen and have also
00:22:06consolidated their control over the Bab el-Mandeb strait.
00:22:09The possibility of further disruptions to shipping in this important
00:22:13waterway, alongside the Strait of Hormuz, has increased
00:22:17concerns about the escalation of the global energy crisis. Mohammed bin Salman,
00:22:20Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, met with the Egyptian president
00:22:24today in Cairo.
00:22:26Elizabeth Kendall, Professor of Middle Eastern Studies and Head
00:22:29of Girton College,
00:22:36that arises now is that if we
00:22:40put ourselves in the shoes of the Yemeni Houthis,
00:22:43can it be said that they are looking
00:22:46for more than this, and how far do they want to go?
00:23:48Energy also pays them.
00:23:50That is, they also gain financial power. This is what they want.
00:23:54How far will they go? It's not clear. Perhaps they won't
00:23:58stop here, because in the final analysis,
00:24:01their ideology gives them
00:24:03political legitimacy not only to govern,
00:24:07but to govern in the Islamic world. If such a thing could be implemented,
00:24:11how much of what we said do we consider to be the Houthis'
00:24:14own decision, and how much of it might actually be
00:24:18part of Iran's strategy in the region?
00:24:21منطقه
00:24:28I think the latest developments indicate
00:24:31both cases. Both the Houthis' decision-making and
00:24:35the fact that, well, it works for Iran. It's not right
00:24:39to completely separate Iran from the Houthis.
00:24:42It's also not right to see them as proxies
00:24:46who simply listen.
00:25:20who see themselves as oppressed and weak
00:25:24forces who have stood up against what they call imperialist
00:25:27and Zionist conspiracies. At the same time,
00:25:30Iran also benefits from this because it causes
00:25:34maximum pressure on Saudi Arabia and
00:25:37the international community due to
00:25:40the control that is established over shipping
00:25:43in Bab el-Mandeb. This works well for Iran,
00:25:46strengthens Iran's leverage, and consolidates
00:25:50Iran's position in the negotiations
00:25:53that it will later use to reach an agreement
00:25:57in the Middle East crisis. You mentioned that the Houthis
00:26:01consider themselves victims. They now say
00:26:04that their actions were due to Saudi pressure.
00:26:08How much traction does this have in their strategy
00:26:12within Yemen?
00:26:13داره؟
00:26:20I think the Houthis now want to present
00:26:24themselves as champions of the oppressed.
00:26:27They are now presenting themselves as winners,
00:26:31with great confidence and a sense of
00:26:34recent superiority.
00:26:38I don't think the image they have of themselves is an image
00:26:42that all Yemenis share. But what resonates
00:26:46with the Yemeni audience is that the Houthis
00:26:49are defenders of Islam. They are defenders
00:26:52of Palestinians in Gaza, defenders
00:26:56of Palestinians in the West Bank, and
00:26:59oppressed Muslims in Lebanon,
00:27:02Muslims who were harmed
00:27:05in Yemen by
00:27:07the Saudi blockade. This narrative resonates well
00:27:11in Yemen. But the narrative that does not resonate
00:27:14well is for the Houthis to say,
00:27:18"We are defenders of Iran." No, the Houthis don't
00:27:22say these things, and in their narratives, this discussion of Iran
00:27:26has no place. Another issue is,
00:27:29of course, Saudi Arabia, which is engaged in conflict
00:27:32with the Houthis. What do you think Saudi Arabia can do
00:27:36with the Houthis? On the one hand, if it wants to escalate
00:27:39these conflicts, it will have to pay a heavy price. But on the other
00:27:43hand, if it continues its strategic patience, it will be in a position
00:27:47of weakness and can expand the Iran-US war front.
00:27:51What solution do you think
00:27:53Saudi Arabia has?
00:27:59Saudi Arabia does not have
00:28:03good options for what
00:28:06Saudi Arabia can do is what it has done
00:28:09so far. First of all, the war with the Houthis,
00:28:13which it waged from 2015 to 2022. That did not work
00:28:17very well and eventually led to a ceasefire
00:28:21before intense negotiations. I think this issue
00:28:24will continue. Saudi Arabia will probably
00:28:28also consider military options, but with the goal
00:28:32of being able to put themselves in a position where they can reach
00:28:36an agreement with the Houthis. This, in my opinion, is inevitable. In addition
00:28:40to these, Saudi Arabia needs new
00:28:43partners. We know that
00:28:46the United States is reluctant to
00:28:50get involved militarily and directly with the Houthis.
00:28:53Last year, it tried to do this,
00:28:56but it didn't work very well for them.
00:28:59Perhaps
00:29:02they can get help from the US in milder
00:29:06or consultative ways, for example, intelligence
00:29:10regarding their targeting or logistical
00:29:14support. But
00:29:17Saudi Arabia is looking for new partners and allies. We know that today
00:29:21they also spoke with the Egyptian president. We know that they also
00:29:24had discussions with Turkey and Pakistan within the framework
00:29:28of the Mecca Pact. However, it is very unlikely
00:29:32that any of these countries would want to get involved
00:29:35in a direct military conflict with the Houthis.
00:29:39That's why that Saudi Arabia
00:29:42should really think about an agreement, a solution
00:29:46that includes an agreement not only with
00:29:49the Houthis, but also with other regional players
00:29:53and even Iran itself. Elizabeth Kande, professor of Middle Eastern studies,
00:30:04Four years have passed since the killing of Mahsa Amini in the custody of the morality
00:30:08police, and even though the hijab law in Iran has not
00:30:11officially changed yet, these days some women appear
00:30:15with optional head coverings in public places and even some official ceremonies.
00:30:19Has the Woman, Life, Freedom movement ended, or does
00:30:22that movement continue to exist in other forms? Paria
00:30:26Manzarzadeh has taken a look at the evolution of the situation
00:30:30of women here.
00:30:39Four years ago, this image of two women without mandatory hijab
00:30:43in a cafe in south Tehran was a media sensation.
00:30:45Dunia Rat was arrested because of this photo.
00:30:49شد.
00:30:53But other women also joined
00:30:55them.
00:30:58From familiar names in Iranian cinema to athletes
00:31:01and other women.