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00:00:03And now on BBC Persian TV, the daily
00:00:07issues
00:00:09of the #MeToo movement, which started in Iran following
00:00:13the global #MeToo movement, what results has it had
00:00:16and to what extent has it been able to be the voice of survivors of violence
00:00:19and sexual assault? What are its challenges?
00:00:23Hello.
00:00:51Ambra, at 18, after participating in the Miss Italy beauty pageant, was invited
00:00:54to a party at the home of Silvio Berlusconi, the then
00:00:58Prime Minister. When she saw underage
00:01:02girls present as sex workers at this party,
00:01:06she left the venue and informed the Italian
00:01:10prosecutor's office.
00:01:12After that, the media under Berlusconi's control defamed
00:01:16her, and she was forced to leave
00:01:19the country and even changed her last name. A few
00:01:23years later, when she went to the office of Harvey Weinstein, the famous
00:01:26producer, for a job offer.
00:01:35She went back the next day with a wiretap to Weinstein's
00:01:39meeting place to gather legal documentation
00:01:43for her claim, but despite audio evidence,
00:01:46she could not prove the accusation.
00:01:49After that, a number of American publications published negative articles about
00:01:53her, so much so that she could no longer receive job
00:01:56offers, and eventually signed a non-disclosure
00:02:00agreement with Weinstein. After
00:02:04that, Weinstein announced that this girl had extorted him
00:02:07for a role in a film.
00:02:10But shortly after, when Weinstein's sexually violent behavior
00:02:14was exposed by other survivors and led to his conviction,
00:02:18it became clear that Ambra Gutierrez had not lied.
00:02:21This is an example of the cost
00:02:25that has been paid by women
00:02:28in the #MeToo movement. This
00:02:32storytelling by women about violence and sexual assault
00:02:35and rape has also grown in Iran in recent
00:02:38years. What consequences has the #MeToo
00:02:41movement left in Iranian society, and what are the challenges
00:02:45ahead for it? Ladan Hashemi, Professor
00:02:49of Gender Studies at City, University of London, and
00:02:53Sanaz Azimipour, Gender Studies
00:02:56researcher at Humboldt University.
00:03:02Welcome. Let's start with you,
00:03:06Ladan. What is your assessment
00:03:08of the #MeToo movement in Iran? Has it had the impact it should have? In
00:03:12my opinion, it has had good achievements
00:03:16that can be discussed.
00:03:20These include, for example, the issue of sexual assault
00:03:23or sexual harassment, which now have various
00:03:27types. Usually,
00:03:31from statistics, we knew that this was common, but both in Iran
00:03:34and globally,
00:03:38the #MeToo movement brought this to the level of public
00:03:42discourse, and in fact, it was as if a light
00:03:45was shone on it, and because a large number of women came
00:03:49out and said #MeToo, I also had such an experience,
00:03:52it broke the taboo. It came out of that stigma
00:03:56and from something that was previously considered a private
00:04:00matter, and now it happened to you, or for example, the victims might
00:04:04have only confided in their close friends or with
00:04:07those they were very close to and trusted, this
00:04:11suffering they were enduring from this trauma they had experienced,
00:04:14and now it was brought to the public level and public discussions
00:04:18at a macro level in society were taking place. As a result, it shifted
00:04:22from "my personal problem" to "our problem,"
00:04:25a public problem, which is correct, because violence,
00:04:28since most victims are women, I refer to this
00:04:31that gender-based
00:04:35violence, where someone is subjected to violence because of their gender,
00:04:38is not a personal issue. It's an issue that society must confront.
00:04:42It's an issue that society also plays a role in its occurrence.
00:04:46As a result, this came to the level of public discourse, and this
00:04:48taboo was broken, and among other points,
00:04:52it showed the diversity of perpetrators
00:04:56and that at all levels of society,
00:05:00we saw, for example, even in our Iranian #MeToo society,
00:05:03for example, diversity in terms of which part of society these
00:05:06perpetrators come from. We have highly educated people
00:05:09to, for example, less educated people,
00:05:13people who are considered, so to speak, very high-profile or celebrities in
00:05:16society, to university professors, to sociologists.
00:05:19This showed that no one
00:05:23is immune from experiencing such a thing.
00:05:26Any woman at any level can experience it, and from anyone at
00:05:30any level. Yes, and any man can also be
00:05:33a perpetrator of sexual harassment.
00:05:37As a result, in recent years,
00:05:40within Iranian society—when I say Iranian society, I mean both inside Iran and abroad—
00:05:44most cases are celebrities
00:05:48who have made headlines. Does this not cause
00:05:51a significant portion of these harassments that occur at other
00:05:55levels, in other environments, workplaces,
00:05:59schools, to remain largely in the shadows?
00:06:03Well, this is one of the challenges of the #MeToo movement, and it's not exclusive to Iran.
00:06:06Very much so, the person who founded
00:06:10the #MeToo movement was asked in one of her interviews if she was
00:06:14upset that celebrities jumped on this wave and, in a way, if you mean
00:06:16Tarana,
00:06:19she was asked and said that well, this is a movement,
00:06:23and these celebrities create moments,
00:06:27and because they are more visible,
00:06:30they bring this into public discussion. So there are
00:06:34good aspects to it, that people who are now
00:06:38well-known, have many followers, have been seen on television,
00:06:41or because of their art or whatever they are famous
00:06:45for in society, they cause this
00:06:48level of abuse to be seen, and even the woman who doesn't
00:06:52have this platform and perhaps doesn't have this
00:06:56glamorous, spotlight, public life, she also sees
00:06:59that another woman has had a similar experience
00:07:02to hers, the experience she had, she also had, she is also encouraged
00:07:06to, for example, but Tarana Burke
00:07:09went and worked with Black women
00:07:13and said that among them
00:07:16I can better raise awareness.
00:07:19But when you look at American society, the cases
00:07:23that make a lot of noise are cases of actresses,
00:07:27cases of Hollywood producers. So,
00:07:30underneath, still, not much noise is made,
00:07:34especially on social media. It's true, we have the same discussion in Iran. Those
00:07:37cases that make noise are mostly those who are visible.
00:07:41Like
00:08:00I am not alone, meaning this widespread nature of abuse and harassment is seen. But then, this criticism is also valid,
00:08:04well, what about those who have no voice, no platform?
00:08:07What happens to them? And if they speak, how much will they be heard?
00:08:11How much will what is said be echoed? I mean, the anonymous one,
00:08:14the anonymous one, how much will their voice be #MeToo-ed? Yes.
00:08:18What other significant consequences has it had, besides this awareness-raising
00:08:22and turning the discussion of sexual
00:08:25violence into a public discussion?
00:08:29Another point that was seen in the #MeToo movement in Iran is the deficiency
00:08:32in the law and the deficiency in our education system. For example, in
00:08:36a country like England, we now have here that these are, for example, very diverse
00:08:40topics that are taught, but it can cover things,
00:08:44including, for example, the issue of informed consent,
00:08:47what it even means, where its boundaries are, and
00:08:51how not to say it. And
00:08:53boys and girls are also taught, and also, for example,
00:08:57that my body is my own, and how
00:09:01to identify abuse, how to react,
00:09:05who to talk to, where to get
00:09:08support, what a healthy relationship means, what an unhealthy
00:09:11relationship means, and how to recognize the signs of coercion
00:09:15or pressure and compulsion. These are very important topics,
00:09:19and yes, yes, this, and well, because the education system in Iran
00:09:22doesn't do its job properly, these trainings are not given, this #MeToo
00:09:26caused these to come to the level of public discourse, and
00:09:30that this is not seen in the Iranian education system,
00:09:33this deficiency became prominent, and in fact, the responsibility has apparently been shifted
00:09:37to families, that you know that it's no longer in school,
00:09:41at least try to do this on social media, or whoever
00:09:44can provide this education in any way they can. Another one was the deficiency in the judicial
00:09:48system and in the law in Iran, which has also been discussed
00:09:52a lot, and perhaps before this #MeToo movement, perhaps many
00:09:55people, including myself, may not have known the details of this, what big
00:09:59deficiencies there are in the definition of harassment and in recognizing
00:10:02and criminalizing it.
00:10:05Investigation. Yes, we have an audio from
00:10:09Malika Parsadoust, who in every
00:10:13hearing that was formed against Pejman
00:10:16Jamshidi, a famous figure in Iran,
00:10:20it went to the stages of judicial
00:10:23proceedings, and one of the points that Malika Parsadoust
00:10:27makes is the loneliness of the woman during the
00:10:30trial against the person accused,
00:10:33and where this woman's narrative is heard,
00:10:37under what circumstances? Let's listen to this, because
00:10:41this itself is an important
00:10:44point. It's very important to say that my mother was
00:10:47not allowed to enter the court. Not even my mother,
00:10:51not a single woman, except for the lady who was writing the minutes
00:10:55and sitting next to the judge. There was
00:10:57no woman there for me to hold her hand.
00:11:00And
00:11:04what questions were asked of that person? Very brief questions, or in response
00:11:07to what the plaintiff
00:11:11is saying now, what defense do you have for yourselves? And we were
00:11:15met with a lot of oaths, only oaths,
00:11:18which, according to Malika Parsadoust, are in an environment where a woman
00:11:21faces a man who is the judge,
00:11:25and those who investigate are also men.
00:11:29She has to give them. But
00:11:32you yourself referred to social networks. What impact
00:11:36has the social networking of the #MeToo
00:11:40movement had? Because this
00:11:43very case that was discussed, Malika Parsadoust, virtually
00:11:47the vast majority
00:11:51of the reactions, the information gathered, all of these were
00:11:55on social media that emerged.
00:11:57The session that was held
00:12:01and in which Malika spoke was formed
00:12:04by women activists
00:12:08and was publicized. The feedback was mostly
00:12:11from social media. What effects does
00:12:14this leave? Well, social media now, in such an
00:12:17environment where women don't have an official platform, even though newspapers
00:12:21in recent years, thanks to the #MeToo movement,
00:12:25media inside Iran were forced to cover it, in addition to media outside Iran. But
00:12:28still, women's voices are much
00:12:32less heard. This social media
00:12:36or mass media has now provided an opportunity,
00:12:40in fact, it is a tool that can give a platform
00:12:43to marginalized voices that have been pushed to the margins
00:12:47to be heard. So it's both inevitable and useful. Do you
00:12:51think that on social media, such a widespread?
00:13:18What are the challenges of the #MeToo movement, especially within
00:13:21Iranian governmental culture?
00:13:25First, before we start the discussion, I want to say something that is very important to me:
00:13:29when we are talking about a social movement,
00:13:32any movement, not just a storytelling movement, any
00:13:36movement, in order to remain dynamic, in order to be able
00:13:40to move forward, to get closer to its horizons,
00:13:43needs to constantly look back at the past and review and see where
00:13:47it worked and where it didn't. That's why I think this critical perspective
00:13:51comes more from a place of solidarity and empathy. Yes.
00:13:55To limitations, and I think it's actually very important. Now, the #MeToo movement, despite being a very
00:13:59new movement, has gone through different phases in different years.
00:14:02So what we see today, that the survivor is actually speaking
00:14:06in the public sphere with her own name,
00:14:10this, in my opinion, is considered a very big
00:14:13achievement. This achievement is, in my opinion,
00:14:17the continuation of all the things that happened in previous years.
00:14:21And also, another point to consider when looking at
00:14:25the storytelling movement is that I think it's very important for us
00:14:28not to forget that
00:14:31we are talking about a movement whose driving
00:14:34forces are those who are survivors of
00:14:38violence, sexual violence. That's why, in my opinion,
00:14:41there is a delicacy
00:14:44required when looking at the various complexities
00:14:47that this perspective can have, in addition
00:14:51to the fact that I think it's important to have a perspective, that is,
00:15:25he does. That's why, in my opinion, when we look at narratives, more important than who is telling
00:15:29their story should be what that narrative
00:15:32and that case is telling us, what mechanism
00:15:36it is actually revealing. I mean, instead
00:15:40of focusing on the perpetrator, focus on the structure.
00:15:44In my opinion, every narrative actually has three, I mean, every
00:15:47investigation, every encounter with a narrative of sexual
00:15:51violence actually has three parts, three different goals.
00:15:54The first is looking at the mechanisms
00:15:58and relationships that made that
00:16:01violence possible. The second
00:16:04is the care of the survivor. The person
00:16:08who has been harmed, and in fact, the focus and concentration
00:16:12on healing and on the
00:16:15survivor. The third is holding
00:16:18the accused perpetrator accountable. Right.
00:16:22Then, in my opinion, these three things go hand in hand,
00:16:26and also in many places, they can have commonalities,
00:16:29meaning that in many places, holding the person
00:16:33who committed the abuse accountable can actually
00:16:36help heal what happened to the survivor,
00:16:39and ultimately, that accountability can affect
00:16:43the mechanism that enables
00:16:47violence, towards changing
00:16:49those relationships. Do you think
00:16:52the challenge is here?
00:16:56In my opinion, this has not happened in many places.
00:16:59I mean, I think in most of the #MeToo cases that have been raised so
00:17:03far, we have not encountered this much,
00:17:08that the person accused of perpetrating abuse would
00:17:11actually be interested and curious and even feel responsible
00:17:15for taking a step forward in relation to what happened.
00:17:18Let's discuss this challenge with Ladan.
00:17:22This challenge is that the focus shifts
00:17:25to the perpetrator and not on caring for
00:17:29the victim or survivor
00:17:32and not on structural change in laws.
00:17:35This is heard a lot.
00:17:38For example, I quote a feminist
00:17:42here who says that the narrative
00:17:45of sexual violence trauma
00:17:49becomes a commodity, a protest that is consumed but
00:17:53doesn't create change. When the narrative of a celebrity's
00:17:56or famous person's abuse is brought up, society, instead
00:17:59of focusing on women's structural rights or reforming
00:18:02rape laws, focuses on the man's
00:18:06name
00:18:08and the exciting and revealing details,
00:18:12and the woman's narrative of abuse is consumed in the chain of likes,
00:18:15comments, shares, and clicks,
00:18:19and at this point, the woman painfully
00:18:23becomes an object of society's voyeurism.
00:18:26How serious is this?
00:18:28I
00:18:31can see both sides,
00:18:33both that
00:18:35sexual violence, due to the
00:18:37attention it has received in the #MeToo movement, has actually
00:18:41come to the level of public awareness. It is one of the rarest
00:18:45types of violence against women in which the perpetrator
00:18:48or abuser is held accountable in public,
00:18:51and this is an opportunity. In fact, I see
00:18:55this as an opportunity, and I agree with
00:18:58Sanaz, that the structure of
00:19:01the #MeToo movement is about changing structures,
00:19:05and
00:19:08that structure which actually enables sexual violence
00:19:12is its ultimate goal, and ultimately, the ultimate
00:19:15goal is prevention. We want to prevent future cases of
00:19:19violence from happening, and at the same time, healing
00:19:23or reparation, as you said, should happen for the victims who are currently
00:19:26experiencing this. Well, this is one of the very rare
00:19:30cases of violence against women that we see society
00:19:34holding the abuser accountable. It shines a light
00:19:37on him. Does it really hold him accountable, or does it turn
00:19:41into, as I quoted from a women's
00:19:45rights activist, turn into
00:19:47a scene for the consumption of a
00:19:51commodity? I mean, everyone focuses on what he said, especially
00:19:55since the figure accused is a celebrity and has many
00:19:59fans, it causes polarization and a very dramatic
00:20:03social media
00:20:06activity. It creates it on social networks,
00:20:09and then after a while, it's forgotten, and the victim
00:20:13or survivor remains. Exactly. So that
00:20:17care we have for the survivor
00:20:21doesn't happen to the extent it should, especially on
00:20:24social media, and for example, victim-blaming
00:20:28is seen, condemnation: "Well, why did you go yourself? Why didn't
00:20:31you realize? Why did you drink? Why did
00:20:35you smoke pot? Why did you even put yourself in this situation? Why did
00:20:38you dress like that? Someone who dressed like that deserved this."
00:20:42This is very painful, that when a survivor comes
00:20:46out with her private matter and exposes it,
00:20:49in fact, the expectation is more empathy
00:20:53and support for her, so that the healing process can happen,
00:20:56and this is not exclusive to Iranian society, to have to answer these questions
00:20:59and again even expect her to sit down
00:21:03and describe in detail what happened. "Tell us, we can't
00:21:06figure it out otherwise." This was very important. This actually leads
00:21:10to re-traumatization, re-living
00:21:13the trauma she experienced once. Now she has to explain it in detail
00:21:17to the public, and this is actually not caring
00:21:20for the victim and survivor at this time.
00:21:23A very important discussion in this
00:21:26regard is the definition of sexual
00:21:29or gender-based harassment. When the #MeToo movement
00:21:32started, we, who here in the
00:21:35West were following the media, saw that
00:21:39the discussion of assault and
00:21:42ultimately sexual violence that occurred
00:21:45physically, this gradually intensified.
00:21:49An academic and scientific
00:22:20barrier to the concept of sexual harassment in
00:22:24Iranian public, customary, and legal
00:22:27literature has made this difficult. It says that in today's
00:22:31Iranian environment, the exact boundaries of harassment
00:22:33are unclear. In the absence of a precise theoretical
00:22:37framework, sometimes daily interactions, awkward
00:22:41verbal communications, words without specific
00:22:44intent, or two-way communication misunderstandings
00:22:47are placed on the same scale as systematic harassment,
00:22:51deliberate rapes, and structural sexual
00:22:54extortion. First, I want to add a few things to what I said before
00:22:58and then come back to your question. Firstly,
00:23:02I think this is a very important discussion, the discussion of caring for the survivor,
00:23:06because I think it receives very little attention, and in the
00:23:09conversations I've had in recent years, very little attention has been paid to this issue.
00:23:12When we talk about care, what exactly are we talking about?
00:23:16We just heard in the audio that was played, that
00:23:20situation that Malika was describing when she
00:23:24entered the court, and all of this, I think it's important to address
00:23:27that, one, that situation is a material
00:23:30situation. I mean, many people after the issue of rape
00:23:34and assault, it's not just the psychological aspect.
00:23:37For example, people lose their jobs, they lose their homes.
00:23:40In my research with those who
00:23:44had shared their stories, one of the survivors was Keyvan Emamverdi.
00:23:48Something he described was that many plaintiffs had to take a bus
00:23:52from another city at 4 AM, while they didn't even have their family's
00:23:55support. I mean, no one knew you were doing this
00:23:59that led to the conviction of Keyvan Emamverdi,
00:24:03but eventually he was released on bail.
00:24:06We'll get to that. He would come
00:24:09alone to Tehran before every court session
00:24:13and then go back again. The issue is that
00:24:16these are all material structures. When we say care,
00:24:21since you yourself used the word "victim," I wanted to briefly talk about this
00:24:24issue. Of course, I also used "survivor." Dr., I
00:24:28want to consciously avoid using the word "victim" here because I think
00:24:31one of the challenges that survivors face
00:24:35is precisely being positioned not
00:24:38as fighters in a movement, but as victims of sexual
00:24:41harassment. I think this is also
00:24:44part of caring for survivors, for the forces
00:24:48of the movement. It refers to a possibility that the #MeToo
00:24:52movement has actually created: that it doesn't reduce
00:24:56individuals simply to being victims, but rather creates
00:24:59a possibility for people to become political subjects
00:25:03who are paying the highest price for their storytelling
00:25:06and are advancing this movement. We will actually get
00:25:10to this later. I want to answer the question I asked
00:25:12to see what your opinion is. Let me see
00:25:16what it
00:25:18was. The definition of harassment. What is this
00:25:22and how much does its ambiguity make
00:25:26things difficult? First, I think this ambiguity and, in fact, the controversy and the
00:25:30complexity that exists in defining sexual
00:25:33violence is not exclusive to Iran. I mean, this is one of the challenges
00:25:37that exists all over the world when sexual
00:25:40violence is discussed. The main problem is that most of the time,
00:25:44sexual violence occurs in private
00:25:47spaces. That's why its proof and
00:25:50sufficient evidence for its proof are lacking. Now, in
00:25:54Iran's case, this becomes much more complex because there is no judicial institution that
00:25:58can recognize most forms of
00:26:00violence. In my opinion,
00:26:32multi-layered and full of abstract
00:26:36language in many of these narratives, which causes
00:26:40one of those audience members, who is also a curious
00:26:43woman, to say, "Excuse me, can you tell
00:26:46what happened? What was the story?" I mean, doesn't this
00:26:49ambiguous language in many of these narratives make things difficult?
00:26:53Although it's understandable in the cultural,
00:26:56political, and social context of Iran, it still has its own problems.
00:27:00They say that in the #MeToo movement, the survivor,
00:27:03I strongly agree that the survivor doesn't need to
00:27:06come and describe,
00:27:08and in response to that comment you
00:27:12mentioned, they had written, "Now come and describe in detail what
00:27:16happened, say this happened, and this happened, and this happened, and this happened, to convince us that
00:27:20this happened." That's what happens in court, in a courtroom.
00:27:24After that, we usually deal with a pattern
00:27:28rather than one person against another. Usually,
00:27:31we see that now, they attract public
00:27:35attention. Several survivors against
00:27:38one person, and the stories, to the extent that even
00:27:41revelations occur, are very similar. I mean, they are showing, for example,
00:27:45drugs were put in drinks, or everyone
00:27:49was dragged to this place or that place. As a result, this consistency
00:27:52between stories, between survivors who each come from a different place
00:27:56and didn't know each other before, and this has been seen
00:27:59in Hollywood cases too, how similar the stories
00:28:03are, and that the abuser
00:28:06has a specific pattern, a specific
00:28:09among
00:28:12these routines or specific patterns, as you said,
00:28:15patterns, one of them
00:28:18is psychological pressure that the woman is subjected to,
00:28:22and in one or two instances, this has been
00:28:25described as creating expectation and keeping
00:28:28the woman in suspense, and I also have another term.
00:28:51Meaning psychological pressure in an unequal
00:28:53relationship, or as you said, a relationship
00:28:57full of misunderstandings. Several points are raised here now. One of the things that
00:29:01has caused a lot of ambiguity is that no means no,
00:29:05not yes, and it's very
00:29:08, extremely complicated, and this is where the role
00:29:12of education becomes very important, that we open up
00:29:15this concept of when no actually means no.
00:29:19If someone says no, then it's not that this woman
00:29:22wants to be coy, this woman wants the man to
00:29:26be, for example, strong and assertive, he must turn
00:29:28the no around.
00:29:33Or I've seen some of those who were accused referring
00:29:36to the idea that in Iranian culture, this no is
00:29:40coquettishness and a desire. Let's see
00:29:43how much work has been done on this in the #MeToo movement
00:29:46in Iran, because consent is a complex issue,
00:29:49not only for men, but also for
00:29:53Ladin said no to it as no, they don't understand, but
00:29:56women should also be trained in it. I
00:29:59took this from the Instagram account of one of the
00:30:02women's rights activists. One of the reasons I don't mention some of these names is that
00:30:06they might not want their names to be mentioned.
00:30:09For example, four of
00:30:12the several criteria related to expressing
00:30:16dissent that this women's rights activist mentions
00:30:20on their social network or Instagram account.
00:30:23It was interesting for me to see how much these have
00:30:27become established and how much lack of transparency in storytelling
00:30:30causes these to be a bit.