Google Cloud Speech-to-Text API (Chirp) + Gemini 2.5 Flash Non-Thinking. Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:03:14And now on BBC Persian Television, current
00:03:18issues.
00:03:21Francis Fukuyama is one of the most well-known political theorists
00:03:24of the last few decades, a thinker whose name became
00:03:28famous worldwide at the end of the Cold War with this controversial idea:
00:03:32"The End of History." He argued that with
00:03:35the collapse of communism, liberal democracy and market
00:03:38economy had become the most unrivalled model for
00:03:41the political organization of societies. An idea that has been challenged
00:03:45many times since then, and Fukuyama himself has repeatedly explained that
00:03:49he didn't mean that nothing else would happen
00:03:52in history. Francis Fukuyama, who also has a background
00:03:56working at the US State Department, is currently a professor of political science
00:03:59at Stanford University. In his new book, "In the Realm of
00:04:02the Last Man," he revisits more than three decades of global political changes
00:04:06and his own evolving views, from the rise of Donald
00:04:09Trump and populism to the crisis of democracy, the Ukraine war, and
00:04:13the return of ethnic nationalism. In this
00:04:16interview with the BBC Newsnight program, Nicholas Wade asks Francis
00:04:20Fukuyama how much today's world differs from the world he
00:04:24envisioned at the beginning of the 1990s.
00:04:27My
00:04:29understanding
00:05:05is that you're a bit upset because people interpreted the first part of the book's title, "The End of History," as if you meant
00:05:09that history was over. Everything was resolved, everything was good, and
00:05:13would continue to be good, whereas you say the issue was more
00:05:16complex than that. Exactly where was it
00:05:20misinterpreted?
00:05:21شده؟
00:05:26The idea of the end of history comes from the German philosopher Hegel. He was the first
00:05:29philosopher to see history as a long-term evolutionary process, what
00:05:33we call modernization or development
00:05:35today.
00:05:40this idea that there would be an end of history:
00:05:42Then Karl Marx took his idea and said the end of history is communism,
00:05:46meaning the culmination of this historical process of development
00:05:49is communism.
00:05:53In 1989,
00:05:59I wrote an article and asked whether such a thing would really happen or
00:06:03not, because in the former Soviet Union, communism was basically
00:06:06being dismantled. I thought if there was an end to history,
00:06:10it wouldn't be communism, but rather a form of liberal
00:06:14democracy and a market economy. This was the concept
00:06:17of the end of
00:06:18history.
00:06:22Then in 1992, I turned this idea
00:06:24into a book. But the last five chapters of the book
00:06:28were about the Last Man. This part comes from another
00:06:31philosopher, Friedrich Nietzsche, who said the end of history would not be a pleasant
00:06:34period, but rather a tense one. Because people don't
00:06:38just want peace and prosperity. The good things that liberal democracy
00:06:42also does are not enough for them. People seek struggle and
00:06:45conflict and strive for something different, and this
00:06:49leads to the erosion of democracy. So you shouldn't be too
00:06:52complacent, because the story continues. 35 years have passed since
00:06:56the publication of that book, and today we have entered a completely different
00:07:00political era.
00:07:05So, it can be said that not only were we not completely wrong and didn't say that
00:07:09history had really ended, but perhaps in...
00:07:15the book, we somewhat predicted it, because in your new book you write that in 1992,
00:07:18you had a clear vision of the emergence of a kind of demagogic populism
00:07:22that we have experienced from the mid-2020s until today. You
00:07:26wrote about this about 30 years ago.
00:07:28بودین.
00:07:31Yes, that's right. I think what led me to this conclusion was that one of
00:07:34the important driving forces of history is the desire for
00:07:37recognition. Some want to be recognized as superior to others.
00:07:41رسمیت شناخت.
00:08:12become president and enter politics. In fact, what I was unaware of
00:08:16at that time was this unstable part of democracy. That very
00:08:20ambitious people can completely disrupt the established system.
00:08:23بزنن.
00:08:25Don't you have mixed feelings about your reference to Donald Trump in 1992?
00:08:29Because his name really appears there. I think on page
00:08:33328, meaning you had noticed
00:08:36something about him even then, but as you say, your
00:08:40understanding was that he would be satisfied in a liberal market
00:08:43economy because he could become wealthy. I think you told
00:08:47the New York Times a few days ago that you didn't know that just being rich
00:08:51wouldn't be enough for him.
00:08:54Yes, that's right. I think ultimately you're also looking for political
00:08:58recognition, not just, for example, a luxury jet to travel everywhere
00:09:02with. That wasn't enough for Trump, and I think
00:09:05this political ambition, this desire for dominance, is the root
00:09:09of many of our current political problems.
00:09:42Except perhaps for the Civil War, we have never seen such an attack on American
00:09:46democracy, and he has managed to convince perhaps a third of Americans
00:09:50that Biden became president through election fraud, which is completely
00:09:53false. This is very dangerous for
00:09:56democracy.
00:09:59Just to be clear, since 1863,
00:10:03we've had two world wars, racial segregation,
00:10:06the civil rights movement, Martin Luther
00:10:10King, and all those events.
00:10:25system, for example, the civil rights movement, in my opinion, was actually
00:10:28the fulfillment of the promise of American institutions. The Declaration
00:10:31of Independence says all men are created equal, but in practice,
00:10:35they were not treated equally. With the civil rights movement,
00:10:38finally the laws changed. Legal segregation ended,
00:10:42and African Americans were given the opportunity to vote and
00:10:45participate. So, that was actually the fulfillment
00:10:49of the original promise. What we didn't predict was the rise of a politician
00:10:53who would not accept democratic results. Trump did not accept the democratic
00:10:57results of the 2020 election, but in 2016,
00:11:00he won under this same system, and in 2024, he won under this
00:11:04same system. He won two presidential elections.
00:11:08Yes, that's right. In a way, the second election was even more concerning
00:11:11than the first because it happened after January 6th, but he won
00:11:15both the Electoral College and the popular vote. Yes,
00:11:18that's right, and I don't think electing someone with such a record paints
00:11:22a positive picture of the American voter, but
00:11:55well, no university tells you everything comes down to just one person.
00:11:59I think many of the things you mentioned play a role.
00:12:02A different social structure has emerged, and there's a lot of
00:12:06anger and resentment between less-educated individuals and the educated
00:12:10elites who run many of the country's major institutions.
00:12:13Globalization has exacerbated many of these tensions, because after
00:12:16China joined the World Trade Organization in the early 2000s,
00:12:20many jobs were moved to China.
00:12:24شد.
00:14:05to divert attention from the fact that he was unsuccessful as president.
00:14:09So maybe we'll hear about Greenland
00:14:12again, or new wars will start. But yes,
00:14:16in the short term, I think he will face a major setback.
00:14:19The main problem, in my opinion, is 2028, because
00:14:23for now, there's no strong figure from the party.
00:14:27As far as energy and momentum go, it's mostly on the very
00:14:30left wing of the party, a bit like the Labour Party during Jeremy Corbyn's
00:14:33era. Their first response to years of Conservative
00:14:36rule. I'm worried something similar might happen in the US.
00:14:40بیفته.
00:14:46You actually anticipated my next question. If Republicans suffer a setback
00:14:49in the midterm elections, is that good for Democrats?
00:14:53For example, control of Congress.
00:15:26We hate Donald Trump, and we are not Trump. They need a positive reason
00:15:30why people should vote for them, and finding that reason
00:15:34has become difficult. Many young people feel they don't have enough opportunities.
00:15:52if Republicans nominate, it gives a big
00:15:55advantage.
00:15:57It's interesting that you said some parts of the Democratic Party have become a bit like the Labour
00:16:00Party during Jeremy Corbyn's era. We've seen candidates on the left
00:16:04wing. Some of them even call themselves socialists, which
00:17:37for example, in California, there will be a referendum on a billionaire tax, because people are
00:17:41very unhappy that people like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos are doing so well
00:17:44while ordinary Americans are struggling. So there's a lot
00:17:48of energy behind these kinds of proposals.
00:17:52I'm not sure if this is what will make you win a national
00:17:55election, but it will definitely mobilize left-wing
00:17:58voters. So left-wing candidates do well in Democratic primaries,
00:18:02but the closer it gets to the 200 presidential
00:18:05election...
00:18:37this might be one of those unknowns that suddenly appears
00:18:40from somewhere.
00:18:43Asaf is very good. He speaks well and has good arguments.
00:18:47There are a few others who could potentially be appealing.
00:18:51But for now, those who are attracting the most attention are
00:18:55like Ocasio-Cortez in New York, Mamdani, and that Arab-American
00:18:58candidate for governor of Michigan. Everyone is focused on these people, and
00:19:02Republicans are very happy about this situation, because nothing
00:19:05is better for them than their opponent.
00:20:37I don't rule out major changes on the Russian
00:20:39side. What's your understanding of Donald Trump's
00:20:43mindset? We all remember that famous confrontation in the Oval Office. I think
00:20:47it was February 2024,
00:20:50shortly after Trump returned to the White House, where he told Zelensky,
00:20:53"You have no cards in your hand." But in recent months,
00:20:57Ukraine has had military successes with its drones, and it seems
00:21:00Trump now thinks maybe Ukraine actually has cards in its
00:21:04hand. What do you think is going on in Trump's
00:21:06mind? Frankly, I think this is just a
00:21:10superficial maneuver, and he is fundamentally still pro-Russia.
00:21:13This is one of the things we've all been confused about for a long
00:21:17time. In the 1908s, when the Soviet Union
00:21:20still existed, he went to Moscow. Then he spent tens of
00:21:24thousands of dollars and ran an ad in the New York Times saying
00:21:27NATO was to blame for the Cold War confrontation and the US should
00:21:31not pay for NATO because NATO is financially exploiting
00:21:34us. So for decades, he has been first pro-Soviet and then pro-Russia.
00:21:38It's a strange issue. No one really
00:21:41understands why, but it's been a consistent line in his views. I don't
00:21:45believe for a moment that he is now more sympathetic to Ukraine.
00:21:49He's upset because he thought the Russians would really defeat
00:21:53Ukraine, and he's frustrated that it didn't happen and Ukraine
00:21:57wasn't forced to make a deal. But he hasn't changed
00:22:00his mind. Of course, Donald Trump will probably say, "Look, I just want this war
00:22:04to end. I don't like the killing, and my frustration is that they're still
00:22:07fighting." I think he's looking for the glory of being recognized
00:22:11as a peace broker, but I doubt he'll achieve
00:22:15that. You're in Britain now and you're interested in politics. The Labour
00:22:19government recently without
00:22:50England, you can remove a Prime Minister so quickly,
00:22:53although you probably do it a bit too much.
00:22:55میکنید
00:22:58But I think this is more a sign of a deeper problem than a feature
00:23:01of the system, namely the stagnation of the British economy, especially
00:23:05since Brexit. I think this stagnation has created a lot of
00:23:09discontent, and as a result, a series of politicians have come
00:23:12who haven't really been able to address the root causes of the problem.
00:23:16But has the economy stagnated since Brexit, or since
00:23:50because other countries also had COVID and recovered much faster than Britain.
00:23:53So I think some of the policies that Britain has adopted after
00:23:57COVID have really been problematic.
00:24:00بوده.
00:24:05One of the debates we're having in this country now is about national identity, and you
00:24:08also wrote about it in your book. One of the topics
00:24:12raised is ethno-nationalism, meaning the view that
00:24:15national identity comes from ancestry and background, not simply from obtaining
00:24:19citizenship.
00:24:50I think ethno-nationalism is very dangerous. If you look at the Balkans and the wars
00:24:54that happened there in the 1980s and 90s, their roots were in ethnicity
00:24:57and tribalism. A particular ethnic group feels historically oppressed,
00:25:01and then you want to kill people from the neighboring ethnic group. Ultimately, the cause of
00:25:04the two World Wars was also these aggressive nationalisms
00:25:08that clashed with each other. The reason we build liberal societies
00:25:12is to move past this stage. You want people to be able to tolerate
00:25:16those who are not like them and live together.
00:25:19People who might speak a different language or
00:25:23have a different appearance. In my opinion,
00:25:26the success of a liberal society lies here. Therefore, nationalism,
00:25:29just like religion in an earlier period, is really
00:25:33an enemy of stability. So ethno-nationalism is an enemy of stability, but you yourself
00:25:36write that perhaps simply building a national identity around an
00:25:40idea, for example, a piece of paper like the Declaration of Independence
00:25:44or the US Constitution, might not be enough, and something richer
00:25:47might be needed.
00:25:50In a liberal society, I think national identity, well, first
00:25:54of all, you need a national identity. People need to have a common
00:25:57understanding of where they came from and where they are going, otherwise
00:26:01you practically don't have a country.
00:28:58they use fake names. Their phones are one-time use.
00:29:10They are journalists from BBC World Service,
00:29:13and this is the Global
00:29:15Eye program from BBC Persian. Is
00:29:18Iranian culture a suitable ground for violence?
00:29:22Can it be said that insensitivity to violence in public
00:29:25or verbal violence are among the signs of violence
00:29:29in Iranian culture? The issue. Suppose
00:29:33you go to witness an execution.
00:29:36Do you see this as violence
00:29:39or as the execution of justice?
00:30:26Hello again, we are with you with a short news segment. The Kremlin says Vladimir
00:30:30Putin, the Russian president, has conveyed Iran's views on ways to resolve
00:30:33the Tehran-Washington conflict to Donald Trump. The presidents
00:30:37of Russia and Iran met the day before yesterday on the sidelines of two summits of Caspian
00:30:41Sea littoral states and Commonwealth of Independent
00:30:45States in Turkmenistan. At the same time, the naval
00:30:48force of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps said that dealing with vessels
00:30:52that they consider to be in violation will not be limited to the Strait of Hormuz.
00:30:55According to the IRGC, any vessel that