Google Cloud Speech-to-Text API (Chirp) + Gemini 2.5 Flash Non-Thinking. Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:00further, objectively, uh, then we will have to continue insisting
00:00:03and we will have to generate the political conditions for that, no, to
00:00:06to be able to understand how from the state and how
00:00:10at a general level we can think of a policy design that
00:00:14fundamentally impacts on risk factors and that combines,
00:00:18without ceasing to think about the immediate demand, President Nayib
00:00:22Bukele maintains a war against violent gangs, the state of
00:00:25exception that allows arrests without a court order was established on
00:00:28March 27, 2022. I understand the
00:00:32shock policy in public security that
00:00:35Bukele is carrying out, I don't know
00:00:39and that's why I lack to make a
00:00:42360 evaluation on the issue of human rights, the issue of the prison
00:00:46situation, I don't know entirely. If
00:00:49the question is, is it a model for Uruguay? No, it's not a model for
00:00:52Uruguay.
00:00:56In Uruguay, as in several other Latin American countries,
00:01:00this idea of the Bukele model is
00:01:03used as a reference to
00:01:07talk about security in our own
00:01:09fill out a resume or whatever, countries. First of all, I want to ask you that, can we talk about
00:01:12a model? I believe that no, we cannot talk about a
00:01:16model in which the government's security strategy
00:01:19for the first 3 years was to make a pact with criminal
00:01:22organizations, which were the gangs. The pact ends
00:01:26with a massacre of 87 citizens in a period of 3
00:01:30days. From that, another model begins
00:01:34called the state of exception, which consists of the
00:01:38suspension of constitutional
00:01:39something about the rights for citizens, and
00:01:42which has resulted in El Salvador being the country with the highest incarceration
00:01:45rate in the world. There have
00:01:49been more than 80,000 arrests since March 2022. There were more than
00:01:5340,000 people in prison at that time, that is, it is said
00:01:57that at least 2% of the adult Salvadoran population is incarcerated.
00:02:00In addition, in a system
00:02:04because it has even been taken to in which citizens know what the government allows us to
00:02:07know, in which the public information access law is
00:02:10rendered useless, in which the Directorate of Penitentiary Centers has not uploaded
00:02:13statistics since December 2020, and in which the statistics that had been
00:02:17uploaded are now inaccessible.
00:02:19And in which citizens, at any time they are
00:02:23arrested, do not have the right to a lawyer. What has happened in El
00:02:26Salvador, people want to
00:02:29type of contact within the know if it can be replicated. And the other thing is if people would be
00:02:32willing, in a society that has different characteristics from that of El
00:02:35Salvador, Salvadoran society is a society that has an average
00:02:39schooling of sixth
00:02:41grade. It is a society in which 40% of people are poor
00:02:45and in which
00:02:47the half-naked gang members there is all this notion of people's rights. When we
00:02:50talk about the rule of law, guarantees, separation of powers, people did not
00:02:54understand that. People understood that there was a criminal outside their house who was
00:02:58about to
00:03:00do something to their children or themselves, who rented or
00:03:03extorted them. So the
00:03:07projects and to sacrifice of those theoretical rights for tangible
00:03:09security has been a decision of the majority of Salvadorans and is
00:03:13part of the reason why Bukele was voted
00:03:16unconstitutionally for a new term. It is the basis
00:03:21yes, in the way I get to the neighborhood at of now, in other societies that have other
00:03:24characteristics,
00:03:26the question that arises is whether people are willing to give up
00:03:30their rights for security.
00:03:32to enable them to return to And another question that academics and people who study this ask is
00:03:35if it is necessary, is it the only
00:03:38way to have security? There must be other formulas and that this is neither
00:03:42a magic formula nor replicable as such. El Salvador is a
00:03:45country of 6 million inhabitants in 21 thousand km2.
00:04:08Federico Maritán is a community teacher in Piedras Blancas since
00:04:122010 and coordinator of the women's rugby group Las Águilas. This
00:04:16it ends up being something that will is a social and
00:04:20sports integration project that has been operating since 2018. About
00:04:2340 girls between 12 and 19 years old who
00:04:27study in high school, UTU, and the University's Institute of Physical Education
00:04:31participate. They themselves baptized themselves Las Águilas,
00:04:35they are registered in the Rugby Union of Uruguay, and since they still
00:04:38do not have a field or headquarters, they train at the Piedras
00:04:42Blancas social
00:04:43club.
00:04:47Have you seen an evolution in terms
00:04:50of, above all, that, living with children and
00:04:53seeing them,
00:04:57When you put flesh on that, what you also correction, then the do you feel that they are more afraid than before, that life has changed a little
00:05:00in relation to the neighborhood and to security? Well,
00:05:03look, actually,
00:05:06yes,
00:05:08it's true that sometimes there are news that are not nice, I'm not going to say
00:05:12no, nor am I going to be naive nor am I going to
00:05:15say things that are not.
00:05:18Yes, sometimes people are a little afraid of
00:05:22some things that have happened, but
00:05:24well, from the school's point of view, for
00:05:28example, the school is a place that is highly cared for by the
00:05:32neighborhood, so it is a safe place.
00:05:35The community, the school, respects it
00:05:39very much. So
00:05:42many times it can be thought that Piedras Blancas is a dangerous
00:05:46place, but I would say that it is not that
00:05:49dangerous, that things can happen, I'm not going to tell you no. The
00:05:52truth is that I believe that many good things happen, educational
00:05:56centers, the movement that there is in educational centers, I mean, nothing,
00:05:59as for teachers, professors, I mean,
00:06:02committed and well, maybe that sometimes doesn't
00:06:05appear in the news. What
00:06:08appears is the other thing, and a lot of the other thing,
00:06:10right?
00:06:27That before the door of the CAIF, the door of the school, the door of the youth center was
00:06:31respected, nowadays there are
00:06:34shootings at the door of the CAIF at the time
00:06:38the children leave. Last
00:06:41week there was another one at the door of Santa Rita, which is one of
00:06:44the CAIFs next to where the polyclinic used to be, which they have now
00:06:48moved from the Salumisurraco
00:06:50center, there was a shooting, so
00:06:54the educators don't know how to handle this because you call the
00:06:58families and tell them to come pick up the children, but you come to pick up the children in the
00:07:01middle of the shooting, of course, walking down that same
00:07:05street and the children are thrown under the tables because there are shootings and you don't
00:07:08know if a bullet will enter inside
00:07:12and hurt a child. Well, in moments when the
00:07:15armed clashes in the neighborhood were very
00:07:17complicated, yes, I mean,
00:07:20because it was like
00:07:23"I have to leave here" because
00:07:26I have my daughter, I mean, how I worked, I mean, how it
00:07:30was, and then it's a little like that, no, at the moment you say
00:07:34it's okay, I mean, because
00:07:36the natural thing is to be able to get out of that danger too, no, when
00:07:40you realize that you are in a situation and real also
00:07:44intuitive is like, well, I can't because how long do I have to stay
00:07:47here like something clinging
00:07:51but well then well in my
00:07:54case I chose to go out to work, I went to
00:07:57work, I mean freedom, I mean
00:08:01I moved to the department, I mean I left a little and
00:08:05I was able to, I mean, now in time I was able to see how to take a
00:08:08distance, no, from those situations and
00:08:11to be able to see that seeing you will not change
00:08:15too much, no, because it's everywhere, the issue is
00:08:18when you have to leave your neighborhood because you can't inhabit it, that's
00:08:22like the, because they don't let you, that's the
00:08:25annoying thing. Uruguay is an aging country that expels
00:08:29its young people, who also subject its poor young people
00:08:32to very high levels of violence and
00:08:35particularly makes the economic conditions of the
00:08:39game and the current conditions, for example,
00:08:43of drug trafficking, which has been one of the dynamics that hits
00:08:46harder where there is a lack of money, because it is a slave
00:08:49market, violent, that does not respect rights and that feeds
00:08:53precisely on poverty, obviously determines that for poor
00:08:56young people it is fundamental because there is also not an equal
00:09:00distribution of young people in the territory, young people are concentrated in that
00:09:04area, it makes them fundamental, the system
00:09:08of protection of educational trajectories because education is the
00:09:11basis of the formation of a project that will provide
00:09:14conditions not to reproduce that key in which
00:09:18they have been left, obviously formal employment
00:09:21market, because money, drug trafficking and
00:09:24work offer, we are, what is precisely
00:09:28needed in these violent territories is formal
00:09:31employment and lasting life
00:09:35projects and the reconstitution of a
00:09:38community network. The case of gender violence is another
00:09:41case. If we only,
00:09:45that is, we do not continue promoting a change
00:09:48of pattern in gender relations,
00:09:51we will first fuel the problem of adolescent violence due to the issue of violent
00:09:55masculinities that culturally is one of
00:09:58the factors that allows involvement in
00:10:02violence and that in homes the idea of a
00:10:06violent masculinity or
00:10:10of the head of the household or the landlord was strongly associated. In the debate about
00:10:13raids, the idea of the head of the household who opens
00:10:17their door continues to be put in the center. This is
00:10:21very different from the reality of female-headed households.
00:10:27And the impossibility of thinking that there are children and adolescents in homes who often
00:10:31today are the ones who care and are almost heads of household in the
00:10:34absence of responsible adults.
00:10:47The girls empowered themselves,
00:10:51the neighborhood does not have much to offer.
00:10:55women's and they found an
00:10:57identification, they found the possibility
00:11:01of practicing sports and also rugby,
00:11:03which is a sport that
00:11:07really gives a place to all people. I never
00:11:10played rugby, I'm simply a rugby fan, it gave me the possibility to
00:11:14train, to be a coach and well, the
00:11:18girls find a place of belonging and an identity
00:11:21that for me is the most important
00:11:25thing for us, it's not if we win more or fewer games,
00:11:29but the issue of identity and that
00:11:32they feel part, because at a time when
00:11:34sometimes the identities of the neighborhoods are
00:11:38traversed by negative connotations
00:11:41or we are in times of globalization where there are no
00:11:44local identities and the global does not overcome
00:11:47them in their neighborhood they found
00:11:51something that identifies them, their colors, their name,
00:11:55their routines, no, every
00:11:58day there is a game you have to meet at 7, 7:30 in
00:12:01Belloni and Tula, there they are, and then this emotional
00:12:05thing, I think it's a factor, but it's everywhere
00:12:08and it's like a very tough thing, it's loneliness, the loneliness of the boys, the loneliness of
00:12:12the girls, the loneliness of the families, I mean, and that's
00:12:15where we have to do like, well, what's up, no,
00:12:19because the more alone the person is,
00:12:23the more complicated they have the... I think the point is loneliness,
00:12:27I mean, I don't know, a girl disappears and the
00:12:30girl understands that no one has to go out to
00:12:33look for her, that no, that no, no,
00:12:37don't look for me, why are you looking for me, I mean, it's because
00:12:41it's bad, because someone who understands that, or
00:12:44that settling of scores is someone's son, someone's
00:12:47brother, and the same with people who are, I mean,
00:12:50nothing, that it's difficult to be able to do the
00:12:54search, that there is nothing clear, that is, it's
00:12:57with that, I think the point of what you
00:13:01were saying, the neuralgic point of all is to attend to the
00:13:04family, to give tools to the family,
00:13:08to promote workshops for families,
00:13:11to instruct them, to give them tools for
00:13:12adolescents,
00:13:19the state mostly cares for the
00:13:22poor, mostly reaches the most vulnerable, whom
00:13:26the current model mostly condemns
00:13:29to not have
00:13:32reproduce logics of illegal money acquisition, because
00:13:35the problem of money continues to be the fundamental problem that
00:13:39organizes the daily gaze of
00:13:42those who do not have, especially in a world where
00:13:46structures like school, like the square, are missing, or where these
00:13:50structures also contain violence and become
00:13:53insecure. Due to these dynamics,
00:13:57we must remember that this control
00:14:01is a very poor control, punitive control, and that it
00:14:04is directed, above all, at punishing the crimes of the
00:14:07poorest and to a lesser extent the crimes of the richest. That
00:14:11is what is called the selectivity of the
00:14:14criminal system and that
00:14:18precisely forms part of the things that we have to
00:14:21address and democratize.
00:14:25a multidimensional problem, because when we talk about having problems in the neighborhood,
00:14:29we talk about having problems of work, if our young people do not
00:14:32have work, do not have a good education, just think
00:14:35that our young people are imprisoned, many of them,
00:14:39and of those young people
00:14:42almost all of them are
00:14:44illiterate due to disuse or because they did not finish
00:14:47school, and what does an illiterate
00:14:51young person expect at 20 years old when they have no alternatives?
00:15:09If you turned 18 and haven't processed your INE, or your address no
00:15:13longer matches your voting credential, or you want to update your
00:16:28sometimes it doesn't worry you that they might make a mistake with a person, have
00:16:32you discussed that, do you talk about it as a
00:16:34group that? who is our
00:16:38confusion towards clear clear
00:16:41someone who might live on the street but suddenly doesn't commit crimes or
00:16:45do you discuss that among yourselves? Yes, because there have been
00:16:48specific cases and there is a person who, although they do not
00:16:52live on the street, is a car guard who also
00:16:55integrates the group, but
00:16:59unfortunately we cannot reach the point
00:17:02of allowing
00:17:05compassion, as I would say,
00:17:08without questioning that person can harm
00:17:11us.
00:17:14That distrust that we feel is fueled by all the
00:17:17daily events that
00:17:18happen.
00:17:26We can talk about security, yes, if my cell phone is stolen, but we can talk about traffic
00:17:30security, we can talk about all the
00:17:33digital security today, about everything that happens that
00:17:37hacks an account, accesses a lot of information, and
00:17:41that's not something that happens here in Belloni, I mean,
00:17:45that in reality the concept of security is very broad, we have to
00:17:48see in what
00:17:51how we delimit it, I mean, I can assure you that in the neighborhood
00:17:55I feel
00:17:56safe.
00:18:00Well, I live a few blocks from here, I don't live in
00:18:02Marconi, I live in Palacio Zaurí, but I have all my family in what is
00:18:05Marconi, I live in Flor. Maroñas, I was
00:18:09born there, my family has also been there for
00:18:12many years in Flor de Maroñas, I don't know if you, when you say
00:18:16where you live, generate things in
00:18:19others, right? What happens with that,
00:18:22personally, it generates
00:18:26a certain annoyance, from the fact that ambulances don't come in, for
00:18:29example, where
00:18:32a TV cable
00:18:36provider doesn't want to come in or fiber
00:18:38optics because they consider it
00:18:42a red zone and that brings a problem, that's
00:18:45like we feel forgotten also by
00:18:49society, that we are not part of society, I imagine
00:18:53the same must happen in your neighborhood, right?
00:18:56Yes, yes, the same happens quite a lot, Maroñas is very diverse,
00:19:00right? And also diverse in its days, in its moments
00:19:04and in the situations,
00:19:09it's not like denying it, but it happens and
00:19:12when it happens it generates things and one of the things it also generates is that
00:19:16it does not make visible all the other
00:19:19things that happen in the neighborhood that also promote a lot of things
00:19:23and this is not to stigmatize for moments
00:19:26that the neighborhood may be going through, an entire
00:19:29neighborhood.
00:19:37No.
00:19:44In August of this year, the newspaper El Observador published a survey
00:19:48conducted with academics from the Faculty of Social Sciences of the
00:19:51University of the Republic that reveals an increase in the feeling of
00:19:55insecurity in neighborhoods where lethal violence is more
00:19:58frequent. In Colón, where Esther lives,
00:20:0230% of the residents said they feel safe
00:20:05in Piedras Blancas. Where the Eagles train,
00:20:0929%. In Las Acacias, where Elba lives
00:20:13and works, only 15% feel safe. In
00:20:16Itusaingo, where we interviewed Winston and Tania,
00:20:2024% feel safe, but in Flor
00:20:24de Maroñas, the neighborhood where Tania lives, only
00:20:279% have that
00:20:29feeling.
00:20:35see are lives. heavy that make some
00:20:39noise to those constructions, no, when we talk for example about settling
00:20:43scores or clashes between gangs, in one of the interviews for
00:20:46example Tania said I understand it. I
00:20:50see it, but I also know those kids since they were little and
00:20:54I see the fracture in a house, no, beyond the fact that there is
00:20:57a certain trajectory, there is also
00:21:01a whole thing that is generated from those episodes,
00:21:05no, and that leaves scars that then have to go
00:21:08back, no, there is also a difficulty to
00:21:12to make it visible to invest or
00:21:16work in those areas, no, yes,
00:21:18it's a little the magnitude of the problem,
00:21:22no, the depth of the problem of those
00:21:25damaged, wounded,
00:21:27victimized lives, those lives that oscillate
00:21:30precisely between legal life and illegal life, no, those
00:21:34borders that blur, when you focus on
00:21:37territory, you zoom in, the
00:21:41panorama is much more complicated, that's where the problems of public policy design
00:21:44come in, policy in general is designed more from
00:21:48a distance. And from the
00:21:52phenomenological ignorance of the problem,
00:21:55so it's not just a matter of resources, I understand it's a
00:21:58matter of resources, but I think it's more about design, about
00:22:01rationality. The feeling I have, and this is an
00:22:05interesting topic to study in depth, is that there has indeed been an
00:22:09increase in investment in security in all its components in recent
00:22:12times, without achieving absolutely anything,
00:22:16because we have not softened either the crime rates or the most
00:22:20serious crimes. The prison population has
00:22:23increased, the problems of recidivism also, so we have
00:22:29rationality of that spending that is always considered urgent and
00:22:32necessary, whose impact must be debated.
00:22:35Well, Bukele is a very
00:22:38effective publicist, certainly, that's what best characterizes
00:22:42him, that was his family business, his foray into
00:22:45politics comes from him managing the advertisements for the
00:22:49left-wing party, the FMLN, from that he
00:22:52becomes mayor of a rather small town called
00:22:56Newgerland, from there he propels himself to the mayoralty of San Salvador, which has been the
00:22:59most traditional platform for presidents, we have to
00:23:03see where we come from in this country, a country where territorial
00:23:07control was not held by the state, it was held by
00:23:10the gangs in which to enter certain
00:23:14territories you had to enter with permission or with some
00:23:19communities in which parents did not see their children
00:23:22who lived passages away and
00:23:26had to leave their columns to see their families, that is the
00:23:30El Salvador that people see, the
00:23:33videos of the secott,
00:23:37with shaved heads
00:23:40marching to the beat of the prison guards, what people
00:23:44don't see is that the secott is simply one of the prisons in
00:23:48El Salvador and that the majority arrested
00:23:50under the state of exception do not go to the secott, but go to other prisons like
00:23:54Izalco, like Mariona, where according to testimony from people who have been released from
00:23:57prison, whom we have interviewed in El Faro, which has also been
00:24:00documented by organizations like Human Rights Watch,
00:24:04they talk about systematic torture, they talk about deaths in
00:24:08prisons, they talk about conditions that do
00:24:11not facilitate reintegration, which is
00:24:14according to Salvadoran law the purpose of prisons, not
00:24:18to torture people, but
00:24:22reintegrate into society after serving their sentence, what happens in
00:24:26El Salvador looks more like revenge than justice,
00:24:29but since again this country has been so deprived of
00:24:32justice, this country was a country in which one out of
00:24:36every 10 homicides was judged and the conviction rate was very low
00:24:40compared to the enormous violence that existed in which people in the
00:24:43communities were under the yoke of gangs and criminal
00:24:46organizations that when they see the police act in these ways
00:24:50against other people it gives them a sense of vindication which is normal and
00:24:54which is I think understandable to a certain point, the problem is
00:24:58that when we applaud the violation of the rights
00:25:01of other people, that ends up being a spit in the air,
00:25:06affect us and that the people who applaud the state of exception, which is
00:25:10many, applaud it until it affects a close
00:25:13relative.
00:25:17I don't think it's a feasible
00:25:20solution to, let's say,
00:25:23balance between repression and prevention, so to speak,
00:25:26that is, to somehow reduce the state's repressive apparatus,
00:25:29I think it's simply not a viable option. Those who live
00:25:33in neighborhoods like these where violence is rampant, they know it, that
00:25:37is, I can't withdraw the state from that
00:25:40part, I have to grow the other, and that's why I spoke at the beginning about
00:25:44the development model, because it seems to me that there is no
00:25:47viable solution that does not involve a plan where Uruguay grows
00:25:51much more than it is growing now and that allows the state to expand in
00:25:54this part that is still in its infancy, that is to say,
00:25:58of course I have to change the matrix of the penitentiary system and that in the long term
00:26:02implies having many fewer prisoners, it's true, but if
00:26:05I take the people I have imprisoned out of the
00:26:08numbers, crime increases, it's like that, it's proven in many
00:26:12parts of Uruguay's recent history, even in this
00:26:14government, there are people that I can take out of the penitentiary system and
00:26:18no matter how much I give them an alternative measure, they will continue
00:26:21to reoffend, they will continue to commit crimes, so
00:26:25unfortunately this part, unfortunately, because as I said before, I would like to be able
00:26:29to invest in other areas, but unfortunately the problem we have is
00:26:33for many decades, perhaps centuries, a
00:26:36culture was created that today we simply cannot
00:26:40eradicate by changing policies, it's there, so I
00:26:43have to keep the repressive part strong, the investigative part, the
00:26:47deterrent part, the kind of violence that exists today did not
00:26:50exist before, the number of negative
00:26:53things that happen is not very
00:26:56increased and it's like she
00:26:59said, you have to live here
00:27:02to... tell it, don't stigmatize the
00:27:05neighborhood so much that when you
00:27:08need to
00:27:12you have to give another address from another part of the house to a relative
00:27:16because if you say I'm from Palacio Shauli, I'm from Flores de
00:27:19Maroña, I'm from Marconi or I'm from Piedras Blancas, they already don't
00:27:23look at you favorably, you understand? They feel that in the places
00:27:27where they live, where they move around,
00:27:30things have started to happen on the street during the day that didn't happen before,
00:27:33that didn't happen before, there's that, how much of
00:27:36construction is there or how much they actually see it, they
00:27:39feel it,
00:27:42yes, for example, personally, yes, claro that there are things that
00:27:45are new modalities, you understand,
00:27:49how people are killed on the street, of course I see it, I see
00:27:52that it happens, not that I see it myself, I see that it happens, I see
00:27:56that it's complicated, I see that
00:27:59it generates morbid curiosity in young people.
00:28:02certain violence generates morbid curiosity
00:28:06social networks to have kids with
00:28:09weapons promoting
00:28:12weapons and they
00:28:14want, this happens to me, this happens to me, we
00:28:18have a biblical school where we work with children from
00:28:21critical contexts, children from families, suddenly
00:28:25they grab a stick, they grab the other day I had a paint
00:28:28torch outside my house and it looked like a weapon, so
00:28:33one of the children grabbed that and said to me "wow, I have a tremendous nine" so
00:28:36that's what generates that morbid curiosity, it generates that
00:28:39it's not good, it's not good, all that is generated in the environment in
00:28:43which we are, to know what a nine is at that age, they know, they know
00:28:46because
00:28:49so what we always try to do is to raise awareness in
00:28:52others, to tell them, no, look, the path is not
00:28:56that way, the path is this way, leave that
00:29:00there, that's not going to help you, so always, I don't know, in
00:29:03your house, in your neighborhood, if that happens, yes
00:29:06it happens, as in all of them, I move
00:29:10through several spaces and you feel that you have had to design
00:29:12strategies to to
00:29:15protect yourself,
00:29:17that you have changed ways where yes, in everyday life,
00:29:20yes,
00:29:23night, no, I study, I get to the neighborhood at night, how we also, no, how
00:29:27we inform each other if there is someone, a colleague, we go together,
00:29:30so the power, like, no, and I
00:29:33also see it in the morning when I go to work, the family
00:29:37taking the kids to the bus stop, no, like in those
00:29:40things, and also in
00:29:44in the in the knowing
00:29:48that there are kids from our neighborhood who have
00:29:51died in clashes, so you know the story, no, I
00:29:54work more in the social part, I
00:29:57worked a lot of time, no, so nothing,
00:30:01families that remain there, quite broken,
00:30:04and and and and well, and that the girls who
00:30:08would be in that, you went through all their lives, how
00:30:12no it impacts in macro terms, there is a
00:30:15correspondence between on the one hand the places of
00:30:19concentration of crime and the more negative and more critical perceptions
00:30:23in terms of affectation, one could think that there is a
00:30:26correlation there, now when one analyzes from another place, not only
00:30:30from a public opinion poll, but works
00:30:34in the territories listening, no, we have had to
00:30:37work several years in ethnographies
00:30:40in Marcón and Casa Valle, eh, the
00:30:43punitive demands there are much more diminished, precisely because of what
00:30:47you said, there is a social conviction that I don't know if
00:30:50it's too articulated, that precisely punitive
00:30:53devices do not work,
00:30:57they break, they undo, they do not provide guarantees, they do not provide security,