Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:22[Steven D'Souza] On this edition of The Fifth Estate... [shouting]
00:00:25We're on St. Mary's Bay in Nova Scotia,
00:00:27the richest part of Canada's billion dollar lobster industry,
00:00:31where there's a war on the water.
00:00:34-Go home. -You go home, lady.
00:00:38[Steven] Intimidation and frequent threats of violence.
00:00:40Places burning down, windows getting smashed in,
00:00:44houses being shot up, people getting shot at.
00:00:46You hear stories it's a little lawless sometimes around rural Nova Scotia.
00:00:50The fight over who gets to fish here
00:00:52has left communities bitter and divided. [Matthew] We're not pirates.
00:00:55We're not the villains. [Steven] Does racism play a role here? Uh...
00:01:00no. A dispute with roots older
00:01:03than Canada itself. Lobster's not going anywhere. [chuckling]
00:01:07It's been around for a very long time.
00:01:09[Steven] We look at who is cashing in on the chaos.
00:01:12I'm sick of it, it has nothing to do with conservation. It's just, it's total greed.
00:01:15We ain't [muted] going anywheres either, man. I'm Stephen D'Souza.
00:01:19This is The Fifth Estate.
00:01:21♪
00:01:37[pensive instrumental]
00:01:41[shouting]
00:01:48♪
00:01:55Woohoo, there's some biggins in there, boys.
00:01:59Some [muted] biggins. Send 'em a couple of those.
00:02:02You want to save a couple of these? Yeah, I want to take a picture of us,
00:02:05all three of us holding up jumbos. Just take my picture with this big lobster.
00:02:08The kids will get a kick out of it at least.
00:02:12And remember, you've gotta hold it up like this.
00:02:17Anybody else want a cool picture of the lobster?
00:02:20[Steven] Out on the water, it's easy for Matt Cope
00:02:22to lose himself in the moment.
00:02:25To cast aside, briefly, the battle taking place here.
00:02:29[Matthew] It's just, when you're out here...
00:02:32the rest of the world almost don't exist for a minute.
00:02:37How many traps do you put out usually?
00:02:40-Like, if I'm doing moderate? -Yeah.
00:02:42Like, when I was doing it here and I got charged,
00:02:45I was fishing a half a shot a gear. So I was fishing 150 traps.
00:02:49And I had two other band members with me. So we were...
00:02:53we were fishing about 50 traps apiece. Right.
00:02:56And during the commercial season, how many?
00:02:58We fished 300, which is a full shot, yeah.
00:03:03[Steven] But this is the boat you were in when all the trouble went down initially? Yeah.
00:03:10[Steven] Navigating the politics of these waters is far from easy.
00:03:14Every time the 39-year-old father of six sets out,
00:03:17he's putting himself at risk of threats, violence,
00:03:21and arrest for something he believes
00:03:23he has every right to do.
00:03:26What do you want them to understand about the dispute? -Like, what's happening here? -I want them to understand
00:03:30that we're not poachers, we're not pirates.
00:03:32I was selling my catch to make money for my family.
00:03:36[Steven] The waters in Atlantic Canada have long been harvested for lobster.
00:03:39The region is parceled into sections, each with its own strict rules
00:03:43for when lobster boats can go out.
00:03:45These are known as commercial seasons.
00:03:48Here in this part of Nova Scotia, St. Mary's Bay is fished commercially
00:03:51from November to May.
00:03:53One in five lobsters fished in Canada come from here.
00:03:56You weren't hiding anything, right?
00:03:58No, absolutely. I had bright buoys.
00:04:02I had my phone number, my name on them.
00:04:06I actually wanted them to call me so I could explain to them what I was doing.
00:04:12[Steven] Cope is licensed to fish during this area's commercial season,
00:04:15but he also fishes much smaller amounts out of season,
00:04:19a controversial practice that more than once
00:04:21has caught the eye of officers
00:04:23with Fisheries and Oceans Canada, or DFO.
00:04:27I have no problem fishing in season. That's what they're always going on about.
00:04:30Oh, if you just fish in season, if you just fish in season.
00:04:33And then we fish in season and it's still a big deal.
00:04:35And basically they said they were gonna take my boat.
00:04:38-[Steven] Was that DFO? -DFO, yeah.
00:04:45[Steven] Cope is Mi'kmaw, they're the predominant
00:04:47First Nations group in Nova Scotia.
00:04:52He traces his right to fish here
00:04:54to treaties signed with the British Crown in the 1700.
00:04:57So, there's a hierarchy here
00:04:59in Nova Scotia because of these treaties, that there's a hierarchy.
00:05:03It goes commercial-based fisheries,
00:05:06which is a privilege-based fisheries, and then there's rights-based fisheries, which is higher.
00:05:12[Steven] In the heart of St. Mary's Bay, at the wharf in Saunierville,
00:05:15the dispute over the hierarch, as Cope describes it,
00:05:18unfolded in 2020.
00:05:21Mi'kmaq launched a rights-based fishery outside the commercial season
00:05:25and it caught international attention.
00:05:28We're right on schedule, we're going to have
00:05:30our elder, Becky, give us an opening prayer.
00:05:34[Steven] Journalist Maureen Googoo covered the event.
00:05:37Five years ago, during the middle of the COVID pandemic,
00:05:41this Sipekne'katik First Nation
00:05:43decided to launch its own moderate livelihood fishery.
00:05:48Yeah! We covered the speeches.
00:05:52We got shots of them giving out lobster tags to fishermen,
00:05:55and then they were going on the boats.
00:06:00As soon as they went on the boats,
00:06:02they were met with a flotilla of non-Indigenous fishers
00:06:06who were ready to take those traps out of the water,
00:06:09and there was clashes. [woman] You're not welcome here. No, you're welcome here.
00:06:13[woman] You just said we're not welcome. You said to go home.
00:06:15...instead of taking our money, go home.
00:06:18You go home, lady.
00:06:19And that went on for about a good two-month period...
00:06:24[indistinct shouting] [Maureen] ...in that area, and it got very violent.
00:06:28It got very scary. They said they won't let me leave
00:06:32unless they have my lobsters. [Maureen] There was fishermen, you know,
00:06:35who were trapped inside of a fishing plant at one point,
00:06:39and with non-Indigenous fishermen
00:06:42threatening to burn them out.
00:06:48[Steven] That wharf is now fenced off. Entry is controlled.
00:06:54But it doesn't keep away the tension that's still sharply felt here
00:06:58by the First Nations fishers on the other side...
00:07:01even in this postcard setting.
00:07:07[folk music playing]
00:07:15[Steven] The Clare region of southern Nova Scotia
00:07:18takes pride in its Acadian ros and its connection to the sea.
00:07:22Here the lobster business touches everyone in some way,
00:07:26and is the lifeblood of these communities. [Bernie] Outside of the Halifax area,
00:07:29once you start coming west,
00:07:32probably every coastal community,
00:07:34its main economic driver is the lobster fishery.
00:07:37The lobster fishery is the big enchilada. If it wasn't for that,
00:07:40I'm not sure how any of these smaller communities,
00:07:43coastal communities, actually could survive.
00:07:45My father owned a small fish plant. Anyway, it ended up,
00:07:48like a lot of the smaller communities around here, most everybody ended up going fishing.
00:07:52[Steven] Bernie Berry sets the table
00:07:54for what the commercial fishes see as the key issue.
00:07:57At the end of the day, it's the stock is the main worry here.
00:08:03And without the stock, a healthy stock, or a sustainable stock,
00:08:07nobody has nothing, okay?
00:08:09And so we've got to get our head together and we've got to take better care of this.
00:08:15There's still lobsters here, but you cannot harvest them in the summer
00:08:19and expect them to be there in the commercial season in the fall.
00:08:23It doesn't work that way. And the problem with the harvest in the summer,
00:08:26it's unregulated. It's not supposed to be happening.
00:08:29[Steven] When you talk to commercial fishermen,
00:08:31they say that the moderate livelihood fishery,
00:08:34anything out of season, is dangerous to the stocks.
00:08:37They may say that to you, they never say that to me. Somebody that knows better.
00:08:41[Steven] The question of First Nations' impact on lobster stocks
00:08:44has been trailing them for a long time.
00:08:47Questions remain unresolved. What are the natives entitled to?
00:08:51How many plan to enter the fishery and for which species?
00:08:54That's what the fight's all about.
00:08:56Lobsters, a few lobsters.
00:08:58[Steven] First Nations fishers say their treaty rights
00:09:01were upheld by a 1999 Supreme Court decision.
00:09:05[reporter] Donald Marshall was charged and convicted
00:09:07of fishing and selling eels without a license.
00:09:10Marshall was out to make a pot on behalf of all Mi'kmaq,
00:09:13that they have the right, not only to hunt and fish without a license,
00:09:17but also to make a living doing it.
00:09:21[Steven] The Supreme Court said Mi'kma,
00:09:23just 5% of the province's population,
00:09:26have a right to fish and sell their catch
00:09:28to make what the court called a moderate livelihood.
00:09:33We're here to make sure our kids in the future
00:09:37will have something better.
00:09:40'Cause that's so weak, like look at him.
00:09:43[Steven] Some bands have negotiated agreements with DFO to do that.
00:09:47But the government wants them to sell only during commercial season.
00:09:50It looks like he's gonna make it, though. Oh yeah, he's flappin', he's swimmin' now.
00:09:54[Steven] But Cope says he should be able to fish
00:09:56for a moderate livelihood when needed.
00:09:59I don't like that they limit
00:10:01the potential of what we can make
00:10:03based on a term such as moderate livelihood.
00:10:06[seagulls squawking]
00:10:08[Steven] The opposition is still there,
00:10:10though not as overt as the open clashes of 2020.
00:10:14Indigenous fishers, a lot of them have talked about
00:10:17dealing with racism on the waters
00:10:19when they fish with non-Indigenous fishers.
00:10:22[indistinct shouting]
00:10:25[woman] They're dropping traps,
00:10:27but the guys behind the non-Native fishers
00:10:31are cutting their traps as soon as they drop them.
00:10:34I don't think people realize how...
00:10:36how racism affects an individual.
00:10:38It's very personal and it's very stressful.
00:10:40And sometimes your life is put at risk because of it.
00:10:45So I think, you know, for the fishermen that I've interviewed,
00:10:49they would prefer to have
00:10:53a season where they could fish
00:10:54without feeling like they're being discriminated against.
00:10:58Some folks, some First Nations individuals
00:11:01will say that they...
00:11:04are permitted to have a moderate livelihood in fishery.
00:11:08[Steven] Well, the Supreme Court said that. Yeah, but it's never been defined.
00:11:12[Steven] Does racism play a role here, do you think?
00:11:14[exhales]
00:11:17I don't think-- I mean, back in 2020, that's how...
00:11:21unfortunately, I think it was painted.
00:11:24But I think what it was...
00:11:26I mean, certainly the communities here and the fishermen were painted as racist because,
00:11:30I mean, things exploded.
00:11:32First Nations gear was cut off and all that.
00:11:34That was just, uh...
00:11:37pent-up frustration, anger,
00:11:39because nobody in the government seemed to be wanting to help
00:11:43and they took it upon themselves. Was it right? No.
00:11:46But, uh... no.
00:11:50I'm just gonna tie her around the post here.
00:11:54[Steven] What do you think is at the heart of their opposition?
00:11:56[Matthew] It's a very passionate field, fishing.
00:11:59I mean, right from your fishing ground,
00:12:01how you tie your traps, what bait you use,
00:12:04your family's been doing it for so long, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera,
00:12:07so that if you feel like you're entitled to something, I get that they're gonna be mad that
00:12:11there's people out there fishing and making money while they're not.
00:12:14But we could talk about residential schools,
00:12:17we could talk about the systematic racism,
00:12:20we could talk about the racism we get from the commercial fishing, but when it all comes down to it,
00:12:24we have a treaty right to do so. And if any one of them could fish
00:12:27in between the season...
00:12:29you guess what, they'll be out there fishing.
00:12:36[Steven] But fishing out of season, as Cope has been doin,
00:12:39puts him in a tough spot not just with commercial fisherme.
00:12:42DFO considers that illegal,
00:12:44leaving him few options to sell whatever he catches.
00:12:49Do you find you have places to sell
00:12:51when you're doing the moderate livelihood?
00:12:53Or how hard is it to sell during that time?
00:12:56[Matthew] It all depends on you. I have the connections and the resources
00:13:00to be able to sell to...
00:13:02like, very broad markets.
00:13:04But for the person that don't have
00:13:07as good connections, then...
00:13:10then that's-- that's all they can do.
00:13:13Somebody can really nickel and dime them, right?
00:13:16[Steven] In 2023, Canada's lobster industry pulled in
00:13:19almost $1.8 billion,
00:13:22almost half of that coming from Nova Scotia.
00:13:25With so much money in play,
00:13:27Bernie Berry alleges fishing in the summer
00:13:29is being leveraged into big sales.
00:13:33This is a, this is a...
00:13:35simply an out of season commercial black market fishery
00:13:39because it is profitable and most of the stuff
00:13:42that's being bought in here is being bought in cash
00:13:46and, or drugs. Your average lobster buyer isn't doing that.
00:13:49So somebody else has got to be involved and stuff like that.
00:13:52[Steven] How do you know that? Are you hearing-- Are you hearing stories or reports?
00:13:56Yeah. Well, again, it's just anecdotal stuff.
00:13:59♪
00:14:03[Steven] But what is the reality here?
00:14:05In a place where little goes unnoticed, we try to get to the bottom
00:14:09of what's really happening on the wharf.
00:14:13-Coming up... -How do I look? Terrible?
00:14:15[Steven] We follow the money in the alleged black market. [Zacharie] You can say I came out threatening
00:14:19or I sound threatening to arrest me. [Steven] Who is in danger?
00:14:23[Geoffrey] As soon as I looked up at the wall and saw a pretty clear hole,
00:14:26it's pretty obvious it was a bullet. [Steven] And just who has the right
00:14:29to fish lobster in these waters? Even if half of what they're saying is true,
00:14:33most people wouldn't even believe it.
00:14:42Hi there, Canada.
00:14:44Hi Siri,
00:14:46How are you holding up?
00:14:51It's been difficult to say the least.
00:14:55I intend to resign as party leader, as Prime Minister.
00:15:01The funny, not so funny thing about the
00:15:03world right now
00:15:05is the thing that can consume your thoughts
00:15:09is the thing you maybe didn't see coming.
00:15:13My favorite word? Tariff
00:15:16is going to be cracking down. Minimum 10% tariff on all
00:15:19imports. Some contracts are already getting cancelled.
00:15:22Facing a potential 25 or even 50% tariff on steel exports.
00:15:25We're already hearing about layoffs. Feeling the financial
00:15:29pain of Canada's 25% counter tariffs. He believes that
00:15:32Canadians would benefit greatly from becoming the 51st state
00:15:36when our sovereignty is threatened.
00:15:38You do what you can. He is trying to break us. So you have
00:15:42questions. How should Canadians be preparing for that next trip?
00:15:46What is your plan? How seriously are you taking
00:15:49this threat of 100% tariffs on foreign made films?
00:15:52A lot of questions. How is Hamilton bracing for tariff
00:15:56impact? When we talk about counter
00:15:58terrorists, do those affect you? How much does it cost to be
00:16:01patriotic when picking items at the grocery store?
00:16:05And while your elbows have been up, elbows up.
00:16:09For us, it's the sleeves rolled up.
00:16:12Because you need answers about your neighborhood, your world,
00:16:16your Canada,
00:16:18and what it means for all of us to say we are Canadian.
00:16:27Our journalists countrywide and all over the world are on the
00:16:30case.
00:16:32Do you think you're gonna have to close?
00:16:35I hate to think about that.
00:16:43I'm about 15 kilometers from the Russian border. Where are
00:16:47Canada's allies? Where are Canada's markets?
00:16:50What is this country's place on the planet?
00:16:53It's the uncertainty that's the
00:16:55this issue. What is the next thing to happen and what will
00:17:00it mean for all of us? We assume that it will be a
00:17:04difficult Rd. Canada. We got you and we are right there
00:17:08right beside you trying to make sense of it with you.
00:19:25[somber music playing]
00:19:32[Steven] In this seaside town, for some,
00:19:34the only thing bigger than the love of lobster
00:19:37is the fear of the crime around the industry.
00:19:40This is the Clare region, with a population of just 8,5,
00:19:44where the lobster business in this small town
00:19:47has brought big city problems.
00:19:52I mean, I grew up here, I love my hometown
00:19:55and it's hard seeing it being abused so badly.
00:19:59[Steven] The towns along this shore have recently seen
00:20:02more than their fair share of crime.
00:20:04The Fifth Estate has tracked allegations of extortion,
00:20:08assault, arson,
00:20:11even threats to kill a dog. At one point, it was happening so frequently,
00:20:15you couldn't even keep up with what was going on.
00:20:17And there's poaching going on from Yarmouth anywhere,
00:20:19you know, it's so vast, the ocean's hard to control.
00:20:22[Steven] JC Comeau runs a business at the Meteghan Wharf.
00:20:26[JC] It's coming primarily from the fact that this illegal,
00:20:28underground poaching activity
00:20:30generates a lot of money to a handful of people,
00:20:33and they will do every they possibly can to keep it going.
00:20:37[Steven] But what is really tearing apart this community,
00:20:40many commercial fishers pointed the finger
00:20:42at the First Nations activity on Saulnierville Wharf.
00:20:46First Nations can go out in the summer legally
00:20:49under a license known as FSC.
00:20:52Fishers can harvest limited amounts for food,
00:20:55social and ceremonial purpose,
00:20:58but they're not allowed to sell their catch.
00:21:01According to this internal report from DFO,
00:21:04authorities have evidence confirming
00:21:06that lobster cod in FSC is being illegally sold,
00:21:10often through unreported cash sales.
00:21:14But is that the whole story?
00:21:16This guy right here is a small jumbo, so he's between three to four pounds.
00:21:20[Steven] That's a big boy.
00:21:25Geoffrey Jobert moved back to the Clare area from Halifax
00:21:29in 2020 to manage the family business.
00:21:33To the outside eye, the lobster processing busines
00:21:35seems straightforward. So in a crate that we had seen earlier,
00:21:39those gray boxes, they hold about £100 just mixed in there.
00:21:44[Steven] Buy lobsters from boats on the wharf, get the seafood out to distributors
00:21:48around the world. And then the trays are going to individually
00:21:51partition each lobster, and that's just to prevent them from eating each other.
00:21:55Did you have a sense of what you were getting yourself into?
00:21:57I had known a little bit that it can be
00:21:59a somewhat rough industry and one that's not always
00:22:02governed the best, I guess you could say,
00:22:04or you hear stories that's a little lawless
00:22:07Sometimes around rural Nova Scotia.
00:22:09[Steven] Buyers like Jobert have to go by the book.
00:22:12[Jobert] We're not allowed to buy out of seasoned lobster, and I think we'd face a hefty fine if we did.
00:22:16I don't think the indigenous people support
00:22:19or want any of the criminal activity that's going on
00:22:21that their middlemen maybe doing. I think they're just trying to find a place
00:22:25to sell their catch, so typically, like commercial fishermen, last little while
00:22:28they're making, like, eight to ten dollars a pound.
00:22:31And then I've heard rumors that the indigenous fishermen
00:22:33are only going to paid around $4 a pound because it is an illegal lobster.
00:22:36Kind of like a gray zone lobster or whatever you want to call it.
00:22:40And I think that's just too low for--
00:22:42for the species they're dealing with. But I mean, from what you've seen, I mean,
00:22:46would you describe it as Organized crime or what would you describe it as?
00:22:50Somewhat-- somewhat organized, but I wouldn't say
00:22:53it's like a huge operation or such a large scale.
00:22:59[Steven] In early 2024, Jobert started buying
00:23:02from a new boat and trouble followed.
00:23:06The story goes that that boat had upset some people,
00:23:09So they started making small threats here and there
00:23:12like a text message or Something like that to leave that boat alone.
00:23:16And I guess it kind of just boiled over to the point
00:23:19of that gunshot happening.
00:23:21[Steven] That fall, a bullet ripped through his home.
00:23:25[Jobert] I cut through the dining room, the kitchen and stop in the living room.
00:23:29It just seems so crazy and intense. Not something I had experienced before.
00:23:32[Steven] Do you feel scared knowing that there are individuals out there
00:23:35capable of this kind of stuff? I definitely feel uneasy.
00:23:38There's some reckless individuals like that that would, you know...
00:23:43go to those extents almost for nothing, for pride maybe.
00:23:49[Steven] No one has been charged in that shooting.
00:23:55But we did track down one of the men
00:23:57charged with a number of lobsr industry related crimes,
00:24:00including allegedly threatening Jobert.
00:24:03[woman] He doesn't answer the front, try the side. -[Steven] Yeah. -[woman] Yeah.
00:24:07[Steven] He calls himself a "Shady, fly-by-night" lobster dealer.
00:24:11[Richard] Fine. Have a good day.
00:24:13[Steven] There were weeks of negotiations to get him on camera,
00:24:16including a few in person visits.
00:24:23How do I look? Terrible.
00:24:25[Steven] He eventually agrees to sit down
00:24:27with CBC Nova Scotia reporter Richard Cuthbertson.
00:24:31We're the lobster mafia. Me and my Dad don't even talk half the time,
00:24:34it's not like it's..
00:24:38There's one in every town I guess, I don't know.
00:24:40[Steven] This is 33 year old Zacharie Thibault.
00:24:42He's currently on house arrest. [Zacharie] If the Thibault family's an organized
00:24:46crime family, they got to change the definition. A bunch of [muted] degenerate drug addicts
00:24:49driving around and being assholes, is about it.
00:24:52[Steven] We wanted to know if he shot at Geoffrey Jobert's home.
00:24:56Turns out Thibault was in jail at the time.
00:24:59Can't shoot that far. Not from Burnside anyways. [Richard] Yeah, you were in jail.
00:25:03[Steven] We know Thibault is facing charges for threatening to kill Jobert,
00:25:07extortion and harassment.
00:25:10Thibault says he's done some bad things,
00:25:12but denies those allegations.
00:25:14I went to jail this year, I was guilty on those I went to jail for,
00:25:17but definitely not guilty on this one.
00:25:21[Steven] But beyond his criminal past, we wanted his insight.
00:25:25He says for years he worked as an unlicensed broker.
00:25:29-[Richard] So this is all cash? -Yeah, most of it.
00:25:31[Richard] Yeah. So how much cash are we talking about? Fifty thousand, hundred thousand.
00:25:34[Richard] Like, you've got $50,000? -Yep. -What are you carrying it in?
00:25:38Huh? [scoffs] Pringle box.
00:25:40Pringle box, [indistinct]. -[Richard laughing] -Bring your truck. Whatever.
00:25:44[Richard] You're just driving around -$50,000 in cash? -Yeah.
00:25:47[Steven] He says unreported cash sales are a tax dodge
00:25:50and happen more often than people realize.
00:25:54[Zacharie] There's 1,688 boats in District 33-34.
00:25:58There's not one of them doesn't sell lobster's cache.
00:26:01[Richard] But you don't know for certain that those fishermen
00:26:03are not declaring that money on their taxes. If they report it, I'm a porn star.
00:26:07There's about as much likelihood as one is the other. Let me ask you this.
00:26:10Your unreported, all the business that you did, your unreported sales,
00:26:13how much of that was Indigenous, how much non-Indigenous?
00:26:17Ten percent indigenous.
00:26:19Yeah. Ten, 15%.
00:26:22-And the rest is non-Indigenous? -Yeah.
00:26:25[Richard] Do you think this is all being
00:26:27sort of used to fuel
00:26:30this sort of energy against the indigenous fisheries?
00:26:32Absolutely. Absolutely. Whether it be a scapegoat or just a lightning rod.
00:26:37-Is this just all lobster... -Absolutely. -...and all just lobster greed. -Yeah.
00:26:40I'll bet my reputation, as shitty as it may be, on that.
00:26:45[Steven] Thibault is making a point that echoes
00:26:47what many First Nations fishers told us,
00:26:50that they feel they're being unfairly blamed
00:26:52for risking stocks,
00:26:54causing crime, and illegally selling.
00:26:57I get angry when I hear it's illegal.
00:27:02You know, it doesn't need to be portrayed that way, right?
00:27:12[Steven] Shelley Denny is a fisheries scientist.
00:27:14She also researches Mi'kmaq self governance
00:27:17and the harm that comes when Treaties aren't respecte.
00:27:20[Shelley] If we are fishing in season
00:27:22with non-Mi'kmaq lobster fishers,
00:27:26that we are at risk and that we can be targeted.
00:27:29Not every non-Mi'kmaw harvester is,
00:27:32you know, vile or, you know, against the fishery,
00:27:35but there are some out there who will very much make sure
00:27:38people are bothered and try as much as they can
00:27:41to discourage them from continuing to fish there.
00:27:47[Steven] Some First Nations fishers at Saulnierville tolds
00:27:49they feel like they're being watched, their every move tracked.
00:27:56When we were there, commercial fishers
00:27:58parked outside the fence, sitting, watching.
00:28:02[fisher] And I own a boat over there.
00:28:05[D'Souza'] This Mi'kmaw fisher tells us
00:28:06seeing the commercial fishers brought back visceral memorie.
00:28:10She sees their presence as intimidation,
00:28:13though it's not always this obvious.
00:28:15Are you monitoring cameras? Are you reviewing footage?
00:28:19Tell me about, like, just keeping a track of all this?
00:28:21Yeah, listen, again, the number of people that's got eyes on that place,
00:28:25and then with the drone footage and stuff like this, it's...
00:28:30There's not much that escapes us.
00:28:34[Steven] Bernie Berry and other commercial fishers
00:28:36are watching, reporting what they see to DFO
00:28:39from their cars and from the air.
00:28:42[Bernie] People actually do some drone video.
00:28:45You can't deny videos.
00:28:48[Steven] They claim these videos show lobster being
00:28:51illegally harvested for sale.
00:28:53If you can climb a fire escape or a ladder with one camera,
00:28:58you can get up above, outside of the gate. You know, when you're back here, you're safe and everything
00:29:02and you can see the whole thing, what's going on.
00:29:05[Steven] Dan Fleck is a retired DFO officer
00:29:08hired to help the commercial fishers.
00:29:10He says their surveillance is necessary.
00:29:14We needed to have video, physical proof
00:29:17in the eyes of the Canadian public because it's a Canadian resource for everyone
00:29:21to actually see how it's being exploited, over exploited.
00:29:28[Steven] One thing First Nations and commercial fishers agree on,
00:29:32that DFO enforcement isn't hitting the mark.
00:29:35First Nations Fishers tell us
00:29:37they feel it's criminalizing their treaty rights.
00:29:40Commercial fishers we spoke to say,
00:29:42DFO isn't cracking down hard enough.
00:29:45So we feel some pressure. [Steven] Noel D'Entremont leads Conservation
00:29:49and Protection for the Maritime Region.
00:29:52[Noel] There's a lot of opinions on this matter,
00:29:54whether the...
00:29:56community members here in Clare, commercial industry,
00:30:00First Nations communities, everyone has their side.
00:30:05What we do is, enforcement is enforcement.
00:30:09How difficult is that though, for your officers when they're out there
00:30:13and knowing they have to make these distinctions?
00:30:15Yeah, so it is very challenging for our officers
00:30:18and we do hear that. And that's where we try and give them the clarity
00:30:22that they need, that...
00:30:25keep in mind what is authorized and what isn't.
00:30:30[Steven] This past summer, across southwest Nova Scotia,
00:30:33DFO seized six boats and more than 1500 traps,
00:30:37filling their storage cages.
00:30:40Coming up, the long fight for Mi'kmaw managed fisheries...
00:30:44The government's reaction was severe, strong,
00:30:48crush the treaty fishery. This is our treaty.
00:30:51[Steven] ...and the battle over the message.
00:30:54Do you see a world in which the moderate livelihood fishery could exist
00:30:57outside of the commercial season? No, no, I don't.
00:31:06Hi there, Canada.
00:31:10How are you holding up?
00:31:14The funny, not so funny thing about the
00:31:16world right now
00:31:18is the thing that can consume your thoughts
00:31:22is the thing you maybe didn't see coming.
00:31:26My favorite word, tariff, minimum 10% tariff on all
00:31:29imports. Some contracts are already getting cancelled.
00:31:33We're already hearing about layoffs. Feeling the financial
00:31:37pain of Canada's 25% counter tariffs. He is trying to break
00:31:41us. So you have questions. How should Canadians be preparing
00:31:44for that next trip? What is your plan?
00:31:47How seriously are you taking this threat of 100% tariffs on
00:31:51foreign made films? A lot of questions. How is
00:31:54Hamilton bracing for tariff impact?
00:31:56How much does it cost to be patriotic when picking items at
00:32:00the grocery store? And while your elbows have been
00:32:03up, elbows up.
00:32:06For us, it's the sleeves rolled up.
00:32:08Because you need answers about your neighborhood, your world,
00:32:13your Canada,
00:32:17our journalist countrywide, and all over the world are on
00:32:20the case. Do you think you're going to have to close?
00:32:24I hate to think about that.
00:32:33Where are Canada's allies? Where are Canada's markets?
00:32:37What is this country's place on the planet?
00:32:39It's the uncertainty that's the biggest issue. What is the next
00:32:43thing to happen and what will it mean for all of us?
00:32:48We got you and we are right there right beside you trying
00:32:53to make sense of it with you.
00:35:07We're doing a lot of work right now, so there's like...
00:35:11so there's workers, a lot of workers and stuff around too.
00:35:16The majority of people that are out there fishing
00:35:18are all following the rules. The only thing that might differ is that...
00:35:24some people fish out of season.
00:35:26[Steven] As a Mi'kmaw fisherman and businessman
00:35:28asserting what he says are his treaty rights,
00:35:31Matt Cope finds himself tangld in the web of accusations
00:35:34and anger surrounding the lobster fishery. And, uh...
00:35:39So they drive by here, my house and stuff.
00:35:42[Steven] An eight foot fence now surrounds his yard,
00:35:45built in part to block the prying eyes
00:35:47of fisheries officers who he says
00:35:49surveil him from the street and with dron.
00:35:52Ever since his arrest on fishery charges in 2020.
00:35:56Did somebody give them instructions
00:35:58to specifically target,
00:36:01Say, certain native targets?
00:36:03I mean, like, if that's the case,
00:36:05then I find that's kind of...
00:36:09stereotypical, maybe unjust.
00:36:15We have no problem trying to work for it. So it's frustrating because
00:36:19they call us lazy when we don't work. And when we do work, we're...
00:36:24we're taking something from them. Calling me a criminal, villains
00:36:27and poachers and organized crimes.
00:36:31Just the list goes on and on. It's just fear mongering.
00:36:35[Steven] He says DFO plays into that fear.
00:36:39I mean, if there was an avenue where I could report my catch
00:36:42and do it completely on the books
00:36:45and it be regulated, then I would do that. I have no problem doing that.
00:36:49There's nothing black market about it at all.
00:36:51I mean, if we have the rights,
00:36:54then make it so that we can sell our catch to the buyers.
00:36:57Make it so that we can report our catch.
00:37:03[people clamouring] Here we go. [indistinct]
00:37:10♪ Put the hands together, it's getting dark again ♪
00:37:14♪ Getting dark again ♪
00:37:17♪ For the second time since we got up ♪
00:37:20♪ It's getting dark again ♪
00:37:22[Dan] They still love to go out there and fish. I mean, despite all the challenges.
00:37:26I mean, it's part of their core of who they are as Mi'kmaq.
00:37:29We've always been a coastal people
00:37:31and the fisheries always been a part of our life.
00:37:34And they absolutely love it out there.
00:37:36They absolutely love it,
00:37:38being able to fish, look after their families
00:37:41and look after their friends.
00:37:44And there's so much pride in being part of that.
00:37:48You gotta thank Don Marshall Jr. It all started there.
00:37:56[Steven] In 1999, Dan Christmas was the executive chairperson
00:37:59of the Union of Nova Scotia Indians,
00:38:02a prominent member of the team supporting the Marshall Case.
00:38:05And finally, I remember that day,
00:38:07September 17, 1999, clear as a bell.
00:38:13I wasn't there for myself.
00:38:15I was there for my people.
00:38:17[Dan] When our lawyer called us and said
00:38:20that we had won. And so that was...
00:38:24probably one of the most happiest moments
00:38:27because I think we knew, all of us in that room,
00:38:30that things will never be the same again.
00:38:35[Steven] In that landmark ruling, the Supreme Court said Mi'kmaq could fish
00:38:39for a so called moderate livelihood.
00:38:42But the court left it up to First Nations
00:38:44and the federal government to negotiate
00:38:46what that term meant in practice.
00:38:51[Dan] What does moderate livelihood mean?
00:38:54We have no idea. We always thought that was a fiction,
00:38:57a legal fiction that really had no meaning.
00:38:59It was almost discriminatory, almost racist to say, well,
00:39:04you know, everyone else can fish commercially,
00:39:07but when you do your fishery, you know, keep it down here,
00:39:12don't make too much money off it.
00:39:16The Mi'kmaq were given the right to basically
00:39:19harvest the bounty of creation, to sustain ourselves.
00:39:23That's how we understood it.
00:39:28[Steven] In the following years,
00:39:29DFO did help expand Mi'kmaq fisheries,
00:39:32transferring licenses to them from commercial fishers.
00:39:36But Christmas says DFO avoided the key issue,
00:39:39one that would follow him later in his career.
00:39:42They wanted us to accept cash to enable...
00:39:46First Nations to obtain boats, licenses, gear training.
00:39:54But without ever referencing the treaty or the court case.
00:39:58And so it enabled the communities
00:40:00to enter into the fishery,
00:40:03the commercial fishery, in a big way.
00:40:05There was no recognition of-- of our treaty right,
00:40:09what the court called a moderate fishery.
00:40:12And we continued to ask the government,
00:40:15"Are you going to set up a table to talk about the treaty right?"
00:40:19And it was just silence.
00:40:23So why don't you just take yourself to the end of the wharf and respect us?
00:40:26We do respect you. Listen, do we have to blockade
00:40:28this [muted] wharf or what? [Steven] That silence led to clashes
00:40:32when First Nations fishers took to the water
00:40:35and DFO responded in force.
00:40:39[woman] Oh, my God.
00:40:42You have a license issued by the Department of Fisheries
00:40:44hat authorizes you to set those traps? Do you understand that?
00:40:48We're fishing under food fishery. This is our treaty.
00:40:56[Steven] Then as now, commercial fishers have stood in opposition,
00:40:59arguing the stock must be protected.
00:41:02-[tenses music playing] -[car horn honking]
00:41:05This is-- this is nowhere near aggressive.
00:41:08[Steven] The various fishers associations have since
00:41:11taken their message to the courts, government and media,
00:41:14forming the Unified Fisheries conservation Alliance in 2020.
00:41:19We collected millions of dollars from our members
00:41:22and we have a key mandate, and it's to pursue
00:41:24a legal resolution to the Marshall issue.
00:41:28[Steven] Colin Sproul is the head of the alliance.
00:41:31I think that a lot of indigenous governments
00:41:33have perverted the Marshall decision into thinking that--
00:41:37that Marshall rights mean an open ended accumulation
00:41:41of fishery access for coastal First Nations.
00:41:43Do you see a world in which the moderate livelihood
00:41:45fishery could exist outside of the commercial season?
00:41:48No. No, I don't.
00:41:50There's one lobster resource for Atlantic lobster,
00:41:53and it needs to be managed under one set of management plans.
00:41:57[Steven] Commercial fishers argue against expanding
00:41:59treaty fisheries by pointing to the off season as a time
00:42:02when lobster can repopulate.
00:42:05This lobster here, ooh, and lovely little eggs.
00:42:08They're always in some sort of reproductive season.
00:42:11They're not a very complicated species.
00:42:13You know, they're basically the insects of the sea.
00:42:16[Steven] Shelley Denny is the director of Aquatic Research and Stewardship
00:42:19at the Unama'ki Institute of Natural Resources.
00:42:23It's healthy, it's been healthy. I mean, there's been some ups and downs.
00:42:26Like any other a species that's fish commercially. The resource is fine.
00:42:29The lobster industry and the population
00:42:31seems to be doing great and you know, there just needs to be more room made
00:42:35and more accommodations made for Mi'kmaq fishers.
00:42:38The level at which the Mi'kmaq are harvesting,
00:42:40even if they're harvesting during seasons where...
00:42:44the lobster industry isn't, the impact would be minimal.
00:42:49[Steven] The internal DFO memo we obtain through access to information
00:42:53confirms much of what she's saying.
00:42:55Dated June 13, it says lobster stocks
00:42:58across the Maritimes, including around St. Mary's B,
00:43:01are in the Healthy Zone
00:43:03and that while the commercial catch is trending down in par,
00:43:07DFO says the decrease has not been directly linked
00:43:11to the food, social and ceremonial fishery.
00:43:14Like, no matter what the government says,
00:43:16no matter what biologists say, we can see the effect of,
00:43:21of the incredible amount of illegal fishing. DFO's own science, though, is saying that
00:43:25overall the health of the stock is in good shape.
00:43:28So is that not a good enough sign that things are okay
00:43:31and that there is enough for everyone?
00:43:33Certainly the lobster resource is in good shape,
00:43:35but it's important to understand why it is.
00:43:37Trap limits, releasing of buried females,
00:43:40minimum sizes, increasing the minimum size,
00:43:44escape fence in our traps. There are literally hundreds of management things,
00:43:47but the most important one of all is the seasonality of our fishery.
00:43:51At the end of the day though, isn't it as simple
00:43:53as there is only so much to go around
00:43:56and you and your members simply just don't want to share?
00:43:58You don't want to give up your share of the pie?
00:44:01Certainly there's enough lobsters to sustain
00:44:04all the communities that need to rely on it.
00:44:06I think those narratives have been put forward by certain Indigenous leaders
00:44:10because it's politically advantageous to them.
00:44:17[Steven] Thirteen people have held the position
00:44:18of Fisheries Minister since the Marshall decision.
00:44:22The current minister, Joanne Thompson, sent us this statement.
00:44:30She also says that since the Marshall decision,
00:44:32the government of Canada has invested over $1 billion
00:44:36to implement the right
00:44:38through communal commercial fishing licenses.
00:44:41That didn't completely answer our questions.
00:44:45So we came to Ottawa to ask the Minister directly
00:44:48if she will resolve a quarter century of uncertainty.
00:44:52Hi, Minister, I'm with The Fifth Estate. Just wondering, will you commit to solving
00:44:56the moderate livelihood question once and for all?
00:45:00Minister, what do you think about DFO? Do you feel like they're criminalizing First Nations
00:45:03fishers by enforcing the law the way they are?
00:45:08The minister didn't give us much of her time,
00:45:11but look who did get a meeting with her.
00:45:13Check out this photo from Jun. Some familiar faces.
00:45:17Bernie Berry, Dan Fleck and Colin Sproul.
00:45:24Coming up... Sometimes they're getting their boat seized,
00:45:27sometimes they're getting their car seized. [Steven] Mi'kmaq fisher's forced
00:45:30to take their fight back to court.
00:45:32[Matthew] We've been criminalized, harassed
00:45:34all the way through this system
00:45:36that's designed to be racist towards us.
00:48:47[singing in other language] [Steven] October 1st.
00:48:52In Nova Scotia, this is Treaty Day.
00:48:55A chance to recognize the peace and friendship
00:48:58struck by the Mi'kmaq and the Crown.
00:49:01We are all treaty people.
00:49:05[Steven] But also a reminder of the work remaining.
00:49:10[Norman] Twenty-six years since the landmark decision.
00:49:15We still need to work on trying to get our rights recognized.
00:49:22[Steven] The event had plenty of dignitaries,
00:49:24but few provincial or federal politicians showed up.
00:49:28[applause]
00:49:30[singing in other language]
00:49:32[Steven] It's an annual event and every year
00:49:34questions hang over the celebration.
00:49:37Will anything change and is Canada listening?
00:49:41[Dan] [indistinct] people have the right to self-determination. We have the right...
00:49:46to govern and manage our own fishery.
00:49:49As long as that principle is ignored,
00:49:52Will never have peace in the water. ♪
00:49:56[Steven] Matt Cope often finds himself forced
00:49:58to shed his fishing gear and put on a suit.
00:50:03[Matt] I don't even think I can count how many of these I've been through.
00:50:08[Steven] He's faced a number of lobster fishery charges
00:50:11since 2020 and hopes his case
00:50:13will be among the last.
00:50:16Fundamentally, when DFO says you're breaking the law,
00:50:19do you see yourself as breaking the law? [Matt] Absolutely not.
00:50:22The very law that they're claiming
00:50:25that I'm breaking is unconstitutional.
00:50:30I am the owner, editor of Ku'ku'kwes News,
00:50:33independent Indigenous News in Atlantic Canada.
00:50:38[Steven] Journalist Maureen Googoo is closely following how the Fisheries fight
00:50:42has moved from the water to the courts.
00:50:46It takes up a lot of my time. [Maureen] There's at least about two, three cases
00:50:50each week. I started getting calls from fishermen
00:50:54and they were saying that they were trying to do
00:50:56their treaty fishery in the summer
00:50:59and they were getting their gear seized,
00:51:02not recognizing their moderate livelihood treaty right.
00:51:05DFO was still enforcing the Fisheries Act
00:51:09and charging them with illegal fishing.
00:51:14So I just started tracking the court cases,
00:51:16getting the court information.
00:51:18I was really shocked to learn that there were over
00:51:2150 indigenous fishers who were charged.
00:51:27[Dan] It is so disheartening.
00:51:30You would think that after Marshall
00:51:34that there would be no more court cases.
00:51:37But it seems that the government is so anxious
00:51:40to relitigate the case
00:51:42that they want to get a different decision
00:51:45that they'll continue to charge and charge
00:51:47and charge and recharge.
00:51:49Why not the federal government just sit down
00:51:51with the First Nation leaders and hammer out
00:51:55what a treaty fishery looks like?
00:52:01[Dan] It's not a Mi'kmaq treaty fishery. It's a DFO commercial fishery.
00:52:05So until the day comes when it becomes truly a Mi'kmaq treaty fishery,
00:52:09then we would have arrived where we should be.
00:52:13[Steven] Dan Christmas saw a way forwad without going to the courts.
00:52:17After he was made a senator, the first Mi'kmaw in the upper chamber,
00:52:21he led a Senate report recommending
00:52:23Fisheries and Oceans Canada fully recognized treaty fishi.
00:52:27Let Mi'kmaq create their own system
00:52:30separate from the commercial structure.
00:52:32I can't tell you how disappointed I was when...
00:52:36DFO just summarily
00:52:39dismissed our recommendations as nothing.
00:52:42[Steven] Over the generation they've been at this,
00:52:45-for Dan Christmas... -We would like to have
00:52:47the problems and also governmt of Canada to recognize
00:52:50that these ways of living stil are extent in our community,
00:52:53and that they're still an important means
00:52:55for some of our families to get by each year. [Steven] ...and Bernie Berry.
00:52:59There is individuals saying that, you know, "Let's go fishing next week."
00:53:03Others are saying, "Leave your plots in the water after the season" type thing.
00:53:06There is, certainly there's frustration.
00:53:09[Steven] It always comes back to family and livelihood.
00:53:12Cross your fingers, cross your toes and hope for the best. But a lot of instinct and experience
00:53:16go into it, doesn't it?
00:53:18If you go fishing for 30 or 40 or 50 years,
00:53:21Mother Nature usually wins on a bigger percentage of the time,
00:53:25and you're just playing catch up.
00:53:27[Steven] He hopes their strong ties to the past are respected
00:53:31when the future of the fishery is set.
00:53:34The industry should have a lot more input as opposed to somebody like you said,
00:53:37sitting in an office in Ottawa
00:53:39and just thinking how it should look.
00:53:45A really good friend of mine made this for me.
00:53:49I wear it at special stuff, like events.
00:53:52Sometimes I wear it to court and stuff.
00:53:55Especially with the ones where we're arguing the treaty.
00:53:59It's got the lobster on there..
00:54:02Commemorating the 1752 treaty.
00:54:07[Steven] Matt Cope draws strength from the treaties
00:54:10because for him, they're more than history.
00:54:13They're personal.
00:54:15But right there, that's our...
00:54:17That's our family tree with...
00:54:22Jean-Baptiste Cope. He would be my...
00:54:25great, great grandfather.
00:54:27He's one of the most recognized signatories
00:54:31of the 1752 treaty that gave us the right to hunt and fish.
00:54:37[Steven] For now, he's going to keep setting off,
00:54:40resolved not to be trapped on the water.
00:54:43[Matthew] I'm already almost 40 years old,
00:54:45So I want my children to be able to exercise their rights.
00:54:48I want them to be able to work hard
00:54:51and fish and be able to make a living out of it.
00:54:55I have the right to fish. I have the right to sell that fish.
00:54:58It's protected under the constitution, and I'm gonna fight that to the end.
00:55:09Hi there Canada.
00:55:13The funny, not so funny thing about the
00:55:15world right now is the thing you maybe didn't see coming.
00:55:21My favorite word? Tariff. Minimum 10% tariff on
00:55:24all imports. We're already hearing about layoffs. He is
00:55:29trying to break us.
00:55:32So you have questions. How should Canadians be preparing
00:55:35for that next trip? How seriously are you taking
00:55:38this threat? How is Hamilton bracing for
00:55:40tariff impact? And while your elbows have been
00:55:43up, elbows up, for us it's the sleeves rolled
00:55:46up. Because you need answers.
00:55:50Our journalists countrywide and all over the world are on the
00:55:55case. Canada, we got you and we are right
00:55:58there, right beside you trying to make
00:56:01sense of it with you.