Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced). Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a quotation record.
00:00:28APP, OR ONLINE AT C-SPAN.ORG.
00:00:29♪
00:00:54>> IN YOUR NEW BOOK, REGIME
00:00:57CHANGE, YOU DESCRIBE PRESIDENT
00:00:59TRUMP AS "THE MOST CONSEQUENTIAL
00:01:02PRESIDENT OF OUR LIFETIMES."
00:01:11>> IT SEEMS PRETTY INDISPUTABLE. WE ARE COVERING A PRESIDENCY
00:01:14COMPLETELY UNRECOGNIZABLE TO TERM ONE.
00:01:18WE CANNOT THINK OF A HISTORICAL ANALOGUE OF ANOTHER AMERICAN
00:01:21PRESIDENT USING POWER THIS WAY. EXPANDING POWER THIS WAY.
00:01:26IGNORING AN EXTREMELY PLIANT
00:01:30BRANCH OF CONGRESS, LARGELY IGNORING THE SENATE.
00:01:35HE HAS USED THREATS AND BULLYING OF VARIOUS INDUSTRIES.
00:01:37HE HAS SHOWN THE POST-WORLD WAR
00:01:41II WORLD ORDER IS ON ITS LAST
00:01:45LEGS, IF IT WILL SURVIVE AT ALL AND WE HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT.
00:01:50I CANNOT THINK OF A MORE CONSEQUENTIAL AND IMPACTFUL PERSON OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS.
00:01:55I THINK YOU WILL BE, BASED ON EVERYTHING WE KNOW, GOING
00:01:58FORWARD FOR YEARS TO COME.
00:02:04>> THE PREMISE OF THE TITLE WAS,
00:02:06WE EARLY ON COVERING THIS SECOND
00:02:09TERM FELT LIKE WE WERE COVERING A FORM OF REGIME CHANGE IN OUR
00:02:13OWN COUNTRY. WE WERE SO USED TO TALKING ABOUT
00:02:16REGIME CHANGE OVERSEAS AND IT IS
00:02:19WRITTEN ABOUT ALL THE TIME USUALLY IN THE CONTEXT OF,
00:02:22SHOULD THE U.S. BE INVOLVED IN TRYING TO BRING ABOUT REGIME
00:02:26CHANGE OVERSEAS.
00:02:28IT IS MUCH MORE UNCOMFORTABLE
00:02:32AND MORE CHALLENGING TO COVER IT WHEN IT IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE.
00:02:40JUST TO GO A LITTLE DEEPER, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE WAY HE HAS USED
00:02:43POWER AND COMPARE IT TO HIS RECENT PREDECESSORS, IT IS QUITE STRIKING.
00:02:54TAKE, FOR EXAMPLE, FOREIGN POLICY. WHEN GEORGE H.W. BUSH WENT
00:02:58THROUGH SECURITY COUNCIL, THERE WAS CONGRESS, THE BRANCH OF
00:03:02CONGRESS -- GOVERNMENT UNDER THE CONSTITUTION RESPONSIBLE FOR DECLARING WORK.
00:03:05THEN THEY WENT TO WORK.
00:03:09WHEN HIS SON TOOK AMERICA TO WAR IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN, IT WENT TO CONGRESS.
00:03:13TRUMP DID NOT TALK TO CONGRESS BEFORE HE TOOK AMERICA TO WAR IN IRAN.
00:03:17HE DIDN'T TALK TO CONGRESS BEFORE HE AUTHORIZED DELTA
00:03:22FORCED TO GO TO TAKE CARE OF
00:03:22HEAD OF STATE AND REGIME CHANGE
00:03:27IN VENEZUELA. HE UNILATERALLY STARTED A GLOBAL
00:03:29TRADE WORTH AND ONE THING WE READ ABOUT IN THE BOOK THAT I
00:03:34THINK IT IS -- AN IMPORTANT
00:03:35DYNAMIC IS EVEN WHEN HE IS
00:03:38CHECKED BY THE SUPREME COURT,
00:03:41AND THAT IS REALLY THE ONLY
00:03:43INSTITUTION THAT HAS SHOWN ANY
00:03:45ABILITY TO CHECK IN, THE ONLY INSTITUTION THEY HAVE REALLY
00:03:48RESPECTED, IT TAKES A WHILE.
00:03:52THE FACTS ON THE GROUND GET
00:03:55CHANGED IN THE COURT SYSTEM, NOT BUILT FOR SOMEONE LIKE DONALD
00:03:59TRUMP WHO ACTS QUICKLY ON MANY FRONTS, NOT REALLY BUILT FOR HIM. THE TRADE WAR IS A GREAT EXAMPLE.
00:04:05HE USED TARIFF AUTHORITY AS THE
00:04:08SUPREME COURT DEEMED LEGITIMATE, BUT A LOT OF ECONOMIC TURMOIL
00:04:11AND CHAOS WAS UNLEASHED BEFORE
00:04:16THE PROCESS COULD CATCH UP TO DONALD TRUMP.
00:04:20PETER: HIS AND HIS ACTIONS IN
00:04:24THE SECOND TERM A REACTION TO WHAT HE LEARNED IN HIS FIRST TERM?
00:04:28MAGGIE: LARGELY, YEAH.
00:04:32THIS HAS BECOME CLEAR TO US. WE STARTED THINKING ABOUT AND
00:04:36REPORTING ON THIS BOOK IN 2023. AT THAT POINT, WE WERE IN THE
00:04:39MIDDLE OF A PRIMARY CAMPAIGN IN
00:04:42WHICH DONALD TRUMP WAS INDICTED FOUR TIMES.
00:04:45HE WAS BEING SUED IN CIVIL COURT
00:04:49FOR FRAUD BY THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL AND BY A NEW
00:04:53YORK WRITER WHO HAD ACCUSED HIM OF SEXUAL ABUSE.
00:05:00HE WAS WRITTEN OFF BY A LOT OF
00:05:00HIS PARTY, EXCEPT FOR THE MOST
00:05:04HARDENED MEMBERS OF THE PARTY
00:05:10WHO REALIZED IN ORDER TO WIN PRIMARIES.
00:05:12HE DIDN'T ACT AS A PARIAH.
00:05:16THEY WERE HOPING TO NONPERSON HIM. HE WAS KICKED OFF OF SOCIAL MEDIA WEBSITES.
00:05:22HE IS ALSO UNDER INVESTIGATION FOR THE FIRST YEAR OF HIS LAST TERM.
00:05:27IN THE SPECIAL COUNSEL -- HE WAS
00:05:32FIRED AS FBI DIRECTOR. THAT DEARLY -- IMPACTED A LOT OF
00:05:36WHAT HE DID GOING FORWARD. THIS IS SOMEONE WHO HAD NEVER
00:05:39RUN FOR CITY COUNCIL, SO MUCH AS PRESIDENT BEFORE. AND HE WINS THE FIRST TIME.
00:05:43HE HAS A THEORY OF THE CASE IN
00:05:44HIS MIND OF HOW EXECUTIVE POWER
00:05:48WORKS.
00:05:48IT LOOKS MUCH MORE LIKE A
00:05:53DEMOCRATIC PARTY MACHINE BOSS IN
00:05:55NEW YORK CITY, WHICH IS WHERE HE
00:05:57LEARNED ABOUT POWER AND BECAME THIS MULTI-DECADE STUDENT OF
00:06:02POWER THAN HE DOES WHAT WE HAVE
00:06:05SEEN OVER MANY YEARS OF CHECKS AND BALANCES OF THE FEDERAL
00:06:09GOVERNMENT AND PROXIES THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IN PLACE.
00:06:11WHAT HE AND A SMALL GROUP OF
00:06:14AIDS, STEPHEN MILLER, THE MOST POWERFUL DOMESTIC POLICY ADVISER
00:06:17WE CAN THINK OF ARGUABLY OF THE
00:06:18LAST MANY DECADES, AND NOW THE
00:06:23HEAD OF THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET, AND A HANDFUL OF
00:06:26OTHER ADVISORS, LOOK FOR POCKETS
00:06:28OF INDEPENDENCE THAT THEY COULD ELIMINATE.
00:06:32THEY LEARNED THEY COULD DECLARE, PARTICULARLY STEPHEN MILLER ON
00:06:35THIS ONE, IF YOU DECLARE
00:06:39EMERGENCIES, YOU CAN UNLOCK SWEEPING POWERS VERY QUICKLY. THEY DO NOT GO THROUGH THE
00:06:44PROCESS OF THE AGENCY.
00:06:48AND THEY LEARNED THE TERM LOYALTY. THAT IS A REALLY KEY FACTOR WE
00:06:51WRITE ABOUT THROUGHOUT THE BOOK.
00:06:56TRUMP WAS STYMIED THROUGHOUT HIS TERM IN TERM ONE BY A FEDERAL BUREAUCRACY HE NOT UNDERSTAND.
00:07:03HE WAS CONVINCED, AND SOMETIMES THERE WERE PEOPLE TRYING TO SLOW
00:07:06DOWN ACTIONS HE WAS TAKING, BUT
00:07:09HE ALSO WAS INFURIATED BY
00:07:14SENIOR-LEVEL AIDES LIKE JOHN KELLY OR JIM MATTIS, WHO REALLY
00:07:17OPPOSED HIS WORLD AND BELIEVED OF THE COUNTRY NEEDED TO BE
00:07:21PROTECTED FROM TRUMP. ALL OF THESE LESSONS COMBINED
00:07:24WITH WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS
00:07:26PERIOD INFORMED THIS PRESIDENCY
00:07:30USA NOW. I WANT TO ADD TO WHAT JONATHAN WAS SAYING ABOUT CONGRESS.
00:07:33NOT TAKING ANY OF THESE POLICY MATTERS TO CONGRESS FOR A VOTE.
00:07:37CONGRESS IS SUPPOSED TO ENGAGE IN OVERSIGHT.
00:07:41THIS IS A CONGRESS WITH VERY
00:07:44RARE EXCEPTIONS, EPSTEIN,
00:07:46JEFFREY EPSTEIN, THE PRESIDENT'S
00:07:50PERSONAL MONEYMAKING, THIS
00:07:55CONGRESS HAS GENERALLY -- TREATS
00:07:58ITSELF AS SOMETHING OF AN APPENDAGE TO THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.
00:08:00PETER: WHAT DID YOU SAY ABOUT PERSONAL MONEYMAKING?
00:08:04MAGGIE: THIS PRESIDENT, FAMILY
00:08:08MEMBERS, AND SOME MEMBERS OF HIS ADMINISTRATION, HAVE MADE A LOT
00:08:10OF PERSONAL WEALTH DURING THE COURSE OF HIS PRESIDENCY.
00:08:13PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS SON,
00:08:18STEVE WITKOFF, SET UP A
00:08:24CRYPTOCURRENCY COMPANY IN 2024, WHICH IS UNHEARD OF TO DO IN THE
00:08:28MIDDLE OF A CAMPAIGN. WHENEVER THOSE CONVERSATIONS
00:08:31STARTED, IT GETS UNVEILED IN THE FALL OF 2024 AND AS PRESIDENT
00:08:34TRUMP IS TAKING ACTIONS INVOLVING REGULATING THAT VERY
00:08:39INDUSTRY, THERE WAS A SECRET DEAL THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
00:08:44UNEARTHED WHERE FOREIGN
00:08:47NATIONALS FROM THE GULF NATIONS,
00:08:49ONE IN PARTICULAR, TOOK A 49%
00:08:52STAKE IN THE COMPANY A FEW DAYS
00:08:56BEFORE THE INAUGURATION.
00:09:00THERE HAVE BEEN PRESIDENTIAL RELATIVES WHO HAVE MADE MONEY
00:09:03AND EMBARRASSED WHITE --
00:09:08EMBARRASSED WHITE HOUSES. HUNTER BIDEN IS AN OBVIOUS EXAMPLE. THERE WERE VARIOUS BUSH FAMILY
00:09:12MEMBERS WHO HAD PROBLEMS. THIS IS A SCALE UNLIKE ANYTHING WE'VE EVER SEEN.
00:09:16TO LISTEN TO REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS, YOU WOULD THINK IT IS NOT HAPPENING.
00:09:24PETER: IS THERE SOMETHING ILLEGAL GOING ON IN YOUR VIEW? JONATHAN SWAN?
00:09:26JONATHAN: IT IS AN INTERESTING
00:09:29QUESTION BECAUSE TRUMP HIMSELF WAS GRANTED SWEEPING IMMUNITY AS
00:09:32ALL PRESIDENTS WERE WITH THE SUPREME COURT IMMUNITY WORLD --
00:09:35RULING IN 2024.
00:09:38TRUMP IS ESSENTIALLY BEYOND THE
00:09:40REACH IN TERMS OF ACTIONS.
00:09:43IT HAS NOT BEEN TESTED. SO WE DO NOT EXACTLY KNOW WHAT
00:09:46THE BOUNDARIES ARE, BUT IT IS
00:09:49HARD TO IMAGINE SOMETHING HE HAS
00:09:51DONE SO FAR THAT WOULD DEFY THE BOUNDS OF THAT RULING.
00:09:56WE ALSO HAVE REPORTING IN THE
00:09:58BOOK THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS TOLD
00:10:01SENIOR ADVISERS IN THE OVAL OFFICE THAT HE IS GOING TO
00:10:04PARDON ANYONE WHO CAME WITHIN
00:10:07250 FEET OF THE OVAL OFFICE. HE SOMETIMES SAYS 200 FEET,
00:10:12SOMETIMES 29 FEET. SOME NUMBER OF FEET.
00:10:15SO THERE IS A SENSE AMONG TRUMP
00:10:19AND HIS ALLIES IN HIS INNER CIRCLE THAT, WITH A VERY
00:10:23FRIENDLY JUSTICE DEPARTMENT RUN BY TRUMP'S OWN FORMER PERSONAL
00:10:26LAWYER, WITH SWEEPING IMMUNITY
00:10:28FROM THE SUPREME COURT, WITH AN
00:10:31INTENTION TO USE PARDON POWER
00:10:32MORE EXTENSIVELY POTENTIALLY
00:10:35THAN ANY PRESIDENT HAS EVER USED IT, I DO NOT THINK THEY FEEL ANY
00:10:39REAL CONCERN ABOUT ILLEGALITY.
00:10:43PETER: WHAT IS THE RULE -- ROLE
00:10:49OF BORIS EPSTEIN PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LIFE?
00:10:51MAGGIE: IT IS A GREAT QUESTION.
00:10:55A LOT OF REPORTING ABOUT BORIS EPSTEIN IN THE BOOK.
00:11:00--TRUMP HISTORICALLY LIKES
00:11:06HAVING PEOPLE AROUND WHO WILL
00:11:07FIX A PROBLEM, WHETHER IT IS
00:11:11STEPHEN MILLER WHO SAYS I CAN GET THIS DONE REALLY FAST,
00:11:13WHETHER IT IS PEOPLE WHO WORK
00:11:16FOR TRUMP AND HIS COMPANY, WHO
00:11:19WILL TALK TO AN OFFICIAL, OR AN
00:11:22ELECTED OFFICIAL WITH WHOM TRUMP
00:11:25IS ENGAGING ON A PROJECT, BORIS
00:11:29EPSTEIN -- BORIS EPSHTEYN IS NOT
00:11:42A GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE BUT IS AT THE WHITE HOUSE A LOT.
00:11:45WE LEARNED TRUMP, AS PART OF HIS
00:11:50RETRIBUTION AGENDA, AND WE WILL
00:11:54TALK ABOUT THIS, HE HAS A LIST
00:11:55OF PEOPLE WHO HE BELIEVES ARE
00:12:00HIS PERCEIVED ENEMIES AND HE WANTS HIS POWERS TO GO TO.
00:12:04BEING A DRIVING FACTOR IN THIS
00:12:08ADMINISTRATION IS PAYBACK AND THE FEELING THEY WERE PROSECUTED
00:12:10UNFAIRLY, TRUMP AND HIS ADVISORS .
00:12:17TRUMP SAID IT HIMSELF. I WAS THE HUNTED AND NOW I AM THE HUNTER.
00:12:25THERE IS A REMARKABLE MOMENT
00:12:25WHERE BORIS EPSHTEYN IS THERE AN
00:12:29STEPHEN MILLER IS THERE. AND THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT
00:12:33VARIOUS THINGS AND THEY START
00:12:34TALKING ABOUT CHRIS KREBS, WHO
00:12:37RAN THE CYBER SECURITY AGENCY
00:12:40THAT OVERSAW THE AGENCY IN 2020
00:12:42AND IN TRUMP'S MIND, HIS SIN WAS SAYING ELECTION SYSTEMS WERE SAFE.
00:12:46TRUMP CANNOT EVEN REMEMBER HIS NAME. WHO WAS THAT GUY?
00:12:49BORIS EPSHTEYN LOOKS HIM UP AND IT IS CHRIS KREBS.
00:12:53AND THEN THERE IS A PRESIDENTIAL
00:12:56MEMORANDA TARGETING CHRIS KREBS DIRECTLY THAT TRUMP READS OUT
00:12:59DURING AN OVAL OFFICE EVENT.
00:13:03THAT SPOKE TO HOW AD HOC A LOT OF THIS IS, BUT IT WAS REALLY
00:13:07REPRESENTATIVE OF THIS INSIDE
00:13:08OUTSIDE GAME -- NOT GAME,
00:13:12APPROACH, THAT TRUMP PASSED. IN TERMS OF TARGETING
00:13:16INDUSTRIES. STEPHEN MILLER IS ON THE INSIDE.
00:13:21HE OVERSEES A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT
00:13:27OF POLICY, EXECUTIVE ORDERS, WHAT ULTIMATELY WILL GO THROUGH
00:13:30THE PAPER OFFICE AND THEN TRUMP'S DESK.
00:13:34BORIS EPSHTEYN HANDLES THE OUTSIDE CASE.
00:13:37BORIS EPSHTEYN, AT LEAST WE DEMONSTRATE IN ONE SCENE, HE CAN SPEAK FOR HIMSELF ABOUT HOW HE
00:13:41WOULD CHARACTERIZE IT, WORKS OR
00:13:44HAS WORKED WITH BOB, WHO IS WITH
00:13:50A STORIED FIRM REPRESENTING
00:13:51TRUMP IN HIS APPEAL OF HIS
00:13:55CRIMINAL CONDITION IN 2024, AND ONE OF THE AREAS YOU SEE THE
00:13:59INSIDE OUTSIDE FACTOR WAS EARLY
00:14:01ON WITH EXECUTIVE OR --
00:14:05EXECUTIVE ORDERS TARGETING LAW FIRMS, WHICH HAS NOT FARED WELL,
00:14:10BUT THEY DID ENOUGH DAMAGE TO
00:14:10THESE FIRMS IN TERMS OF PR OR
00:14:14THEIR ABILITY TO REPRESENT CLIENTS. WHAT WE TRIED REPORTING IN THE
00:14:19BOOK WAS LAYING OUT HOW TRUMP
00:14:21USES THESE VARIOUS LEVERS TO HSN
00:14:26ESSENTIALLY A BULLYING CAMPAIGN, WHETHER AGAINST PEOPLE HE DOESN'T LIKE, INDUSTRIES LIKE
00:14:31MEDIA, ABC NEWS, CBS, AND
00:14:36OTHERS.
00:14:39THEY HAVE FOUND WAYS WHERE IF THERE IS SOME KIND OF GOVERNMENT
00:14:42OVERSIGHT OR LEVER OVER
00:14:47EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS, HARVARD, AND WE LAY THIS OUT,
00:14:51THEY ARE WILLING TO USE IT AND PRESS AND SQUEEZE.
00:14:56TRUMP HAS VARIOUS MECHANISMS HE HAS SHOWN HE HAS NO COMPUNCTION ABOUT DEPLOYING.
00:14:59PETER: HOW MUCH TIME DID YOU
00:15:02SPEND LOOKING AT THE LEGITIMACY
00:15:06OF SOME OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S GRIEVANCES?
00:15:08A LOT OF THIS CAN GO BACK TO
00:15:11RUSSIA, RUSSIA, RUSSIA, IN 20, CAN'T IT?
00:15:14JONATHAN: WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE
00:15:17LAW FORMS -- LAW FIRMS THAT
00:15:22MAGGIE WAS TALKING ABOUT, THE GRIEVANCE WAS HIRING SOMEONE
00:15:26LIKE ROBERT MULLER, POINTED
00:15:28SPECIAL COUNSEL TO OVERSEE THE RUSSIA INVESTIGATION.
00:15:32OR MARKET, WHO WAS HIRED TO HELP
00:15:35INVESTIGATE TRUMP IN NEW YORK. PEOPLE TRUMP DOESN'T LIKE.
00:15:43SO, THERE IS NOT A GREAT MYSTERY
00:15:46TO BE DISCERNED HERE ABOUT THE SELECTION PROCESS OF HOW THEY
00:15:49WENT AFTER VARIOUS LAW FIRMS. LAW FIRMS PEOPLE THAT ARE
00:15:53REPRESENTED PEOPLE HE DIDN'T LIKE LIKE JACK SMITH, APPOINTED
00:15:56AS A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR TO INVESTIGATE TRUMP OVER
00:16:00CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS, AND THE
00:16:05JANUARY 6 CONSPIRACY, OR BECAUSE THEY EMPLOY PEOPLE HE DIDN'T LIKE AND HE USED GOVERNMENT
00:16:10POWER TO COERCE THEM INTO MAKING
00:16:15SIGNIFICANT PRO BONO COMMITMENTS TO THE GOVERNMENT.
00:16:17PETER: I WANT TO QUOTE FROM A
00:16:21BOOK ABOUT DECISION-MAKING PROCESS, DAILY SCHEDULE.
00:16:23BY MIDWAY THROUGH THE YEAR, A PICTURE WAS EMERGING --
00:17:12PETER: HOW DOES THAT AFFECT THE
00:17:18DECISION-MAKING PROCESS IN THE OVAL OFFICE?
00:17:19JONATHAN: WE WRITE THAT SORT OF,
00:17:22IT IS AN INTERESTING JUXTAPOSITION.
00:17:24WE WRITE THAT TIME IS A FLEXIBLE
00:17:28CONCEPT IN TRUMP'S WHITE HOUSE. PREVIOUS PRESIDENT, GEORGE W.
00:17:30BUSH BEING ONE EXAMPLE AND BARACK OBAMA BEING ANOTHER, PREVIOUS PRESIDENCIES TO
00:17:35SCHEDULE THEIR TIME IN 10 OR 15 MINUTE INCREMENTS.
00:17:37THAT IS HOW ORGANIZED THEY WORK. THE ADAGE THAT A PRESIDENT'S
00:17:41MOST VALUABLE COMMODITY IS HIS TIME.
00:17:45THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE, TO THE OUTSIDE, LOOKS LIKE THIS HIVE OF
00:17:50ACTIVITY, AN INCREDIBLE MACHINE THAT IS JUST PUMPING OUT
00:17:54ACTIVITY. FOR PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY GO IN AND SEE HIM, IT CAN SEEM LIKE HE
00:17:58HAS ALL THE TIME OF THE WORLD. WHEN WE WENT IN TO SEE HIM FOR
00:18:02AN INTERVIEW MARCH 16, PERFECT
00:18:08EXAMPLE, UNHURRIED.
00:18:10IT WAS THE 17TH DAY DURESS AND
00:18:23STRESS AND WHATEVER. HE WAS THE PICTURE OF
00:18:27RELAXATION. WHEN WE WALKED INTO THE OVAL
00:18:29OFFICE, ON TOP OF THE RESOLUTE DESK WERE PHOTOGRAPHS OF MAPLE TREES.
00:18:33HE HELD IT UP AND SAID, I AM
00:18:36BUYING MAPLE TREES FOR THE WHITE HOUSE.
00:18:38IT TURNS OUT I AM GOOD AT BUYING TREES.
00:18:41UNDERNEATH WERE MORE PICTURES OF
00:18:42HIS BALLROOM, BUT COLUMNS, HE
00:18:47SPENDS CONSIDERABLE AMOUNTS OF
00:18:49HIS TIME ON DECORATION, DESIGN,
00:18:54REBUILDING MONUMENTS, REFURBISHING WASHINGTON, D.C.
00:18:57THE MEETINGS ARE UNSTRUCTURED.
00:19:00AND ROLLING, AS WE SAY. THERE IS OFTEN A DELINEATED ENDPOINT.
00:19:07THERE'S ALSO SOMETHING ELSE WE WRITE IN THE BOOK.
00:19:10FOR IMPORTANT TOPICS, THINGS THEY ACTUALLY WANT TO KEEP
00:19:16SECRET, THEY ARE VERY GOOD AT KEEPING SECRETS, MUCH BETTER
00:19:19THAN THE FIRST TERM. I THINK PEOPLE WILL UNDERSTAND
00:19:22WHEN THEY READ THE BOOK IS, THIS
00:19:25IS NOTHING LIKE THE FIRST TERM.
00:19:28THIS COUNTRY IS BEING RUN BY FIVE OR SIX PEOPLE.
00:19:31A TINY GROUP.
00:19:34MOST PEOPLE IN THE GOVERNMENT,
00:19:36EVEN AT A SENIOR LEVEL AT VARIOUS AGENCIES, STATE
00:19:40DEPARTMENT, PENTAGON, HAVE NO EARTHLY IDEA WHAT IS BEING SAID
00:19:44IN THIS ROOM AND WHAT IS BEING DISCUSSED AND PLANNED.
00:19:49SO WE TRY. ONE OF THE HARDEST THINGS WE HAD
00:19:53TO ACCOMPLISH AS REPORTERS WITH THIS BOOK WAS BREAKING INTO
00:19:56THOSE ROOMS AND TRYING TO GET OUT THAT INFORMATION.
00:20:00IF THIS WAS THE FIRST TERM, IT WAS LIKE ANYONE COULD GET A LEAK.
00:20:03IT WAS LEAKING STORIES EVERY DAY.
00:20:08HE NOW HAS TRUE LOYALISTS AROUND
00:20:10HIM, AND THE LEAKING IS FAR LESS PREVALENT.
00:20:13PETER: YOU HAVE GOT THE CORE
00:20:17GROUP OF TRUMP INTIMATES AS YOU SAY.
00:20:20STEPHEN MILLER, MARCO RUBIO, JD VANCE, STEVE WITKOFF, NATALIE
00:20:24HARP, WHO MY MISSING ON THAT LIST?
00:20:27JONATHAN: PETE HEGSETH, JOHN
00:20:31RATCLIFFE. IT DOESN'T GO MUCH BEYOND THAT.
00:20:34MAGGIE: I WOULD NOT CALL ALL OF
00:20:39THEM INTIMATES.
00:20:41THE TREASURY SECRETARY AND CHRIS
00:20:44WRIGHT WHO TRUMP HAS AS THE
00:20:48ENERGY SECRETARY, TRENT HAS HAD A LUKEWARM APPROACH, THEY WERE
00:20:52NOT EVEN IN THESE MEETINGS THAT WE DESCRIBED ABOUT THE LEAD UP
00:20:56TO THE IRAN WAR. THE PEOPLE WHO MANAGE THE FALLOUT OF A GLOBAL ENERGY
00:21:00CRISIS FROM THIS WAR WERE NOT
00:21:02PART OF THE PLANNING MEETINGS, BECAUSE THIS WHITE HOUSE IS SO
00:21:06CONCERNED ABOUT LEAKS. .
00:21:10PETER: BUT THAT IS TYPICAL OF ANY WHITE HOUSE.
00:21:13MAGGIE: NOT LIKE THIS.
00:21:16JONATHAN: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
00:21:19THE TREASURY SECRETARY NOT INVOLVED IN ANY OF THE PLANNING
00:21:21MEETINGS TO TALK ABOUT THE POTENTIAL CLOSURE OF THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ QUESTION MARK THAT IS
00:21:25NOT NORMAL. MAGGIE: THE CONCERN ABOUT LEAKS IS NOT UNUSUAL.
00:21:29IT IS THE EXTREME MEASURES THAT THEY TAKE TO TRY TO AVOID THEM,
00:21:33WHICH IS ALSO PART OF WHAT MADE REPORTING THIS, IN ADDITION TO
00:21:37THE FACT THAT JONATHAN SAID THIS IS NOT TERM ONE WHERE YOU HAD TO
00:21:41BE, TO PARAPHRASE A COLLEAGUE OF OURS, ABSENT YOUR SENSES TO NOT
00:21:45GET A STORY AT SOME POINT.
00:21:48BECAUSE THEY HAVE SET UP ALL OF THE EFFORTS TO TRY TO AVOID
00:21:52LEAKS, THIS WAS A REALLY HARD BOOK TO REPORT.
00:21:54WE ARE HUMBLE ABOUT THE FACT THERE IS PROBABLY MORE TO LEARN
00:21:58ABOUT CERTAIN EPISODES HERE, BUT THIS WAS OUR BEST ATTEMPT.
00:22:01PETER: "THOSE WHO KNEW HER WELL --
00:22:19PETER: WHO ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?
00:22:20MAGGIE: THAT WOULD BE SUSIE WILES.
00:22:24NOT MUCH TO ADD TO THE DESCRIPTION WE HAD IN THE BOOK. ONE THING ABOUT SUSIE WILES IS
00:22:28SHE WAS WITH TRUMP AT TRUMP'S
00:22:31LOWEST POINT, WHICH WAS 2021. BUT HE WAS WITH HER AND HER
00:22:35LOWEST POINT. AND I THINK THAT GETS MISSED IN
00:22:36TERMS OF UNDERSTANDING THE
00:22:41DYNAMIC BETWEEN THEM.
00:22:42IN 2018, AT TRUMP'S REQUEST,
00:22:45SUSIE WILES IS A LONGTIME FLORIDA OPERATIVE, LOBBYIST,
00:22:49VERY WELL KNOWN, HAS BIPARTISAN
00:22:52RESPECT AND ADMIRATION IN FLORIDA.
00:22:59SHE WAS VERY INVOLVED IN RICK
00:23:01SCOTT SENATE CAMPAIGN IN 2010, THE SAME TICKET MARCO RUBIO RAN ON.
00:23:05SO SHE HAS HAD A FIRSTHAND LOOK AT HOW THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS
00:23:08CHANGED OVER TIME. SHE WAS NOT SOMEONE HE WOULD
00:23:12ORGANICALLY THINK ABOUT AS A
00:23:16FLAMETHROWER OF THE MAGA
00:23:20VARIETY. BUT SHE IS HARDER TO PUT IN A BOX THAN PEOPLE THINK.
00:23:24HOWEVER, JUST IN A NEAT CLEAN
00:23:26POLITICAL BATH -- BOX.
00:23:30BUT SHE HELPED RON DESANTIS SAVE
00:23:33WHAT WAS A FLAILING GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN. HE WON.
00:23:41DESANTIS STARTED TARGETING HER AND MAKING ACCUSATIONS ABOUT
00:23:44LEAKS AND MONEY, ALL OF WHICH HE
00:23:47DENIED, BUT DISSENT IS SET OUT TO TRY TO RUIN HER CAREER
00:23:51ACCORDING TO OUR REPORTING AND ACCORDING TO PEOPLE IN FLORIDA.
00:23:53PETER: WHAT WAS THE ISSUE THEY HAD?
00:23:56MAGGIE: I DO NOT KNOW THAT WE
00:23:58WILL TOTALLY KNOW THE BREAKDOWN
00:24:00HERE, BUT WE KNOW THEY ACCUSED HER OF VARIOUS TYPES OF IMPROPRIETY.
00:24:06THE DESANTIS'S ARE PARANOID IN
00:24:09OUR EXPERIENCE OF COVERING THEM IN EVERYONE'S EXPERIENCE OF
00:24:12GOVERNING THEM. BUT SHE DID THAT AT TRUMP'S REQUEST.
00:24:17DESANTIS WENT AFTER WILES TO
00:24:22TRUMP AHEAD OF THE 2020 CAMPAIGN, SAYING YOU SHOULDN'T
00:24:25HIRE HER. SO TRUMP DID NOT. SOME MEMBERS OF TRUMP'S STAFF
00:24:30PROTESTED AND HE BROUGHT HER ON OVER OBJECTIONS.
00:24:33HE CREDITS SUSAN WILES WITH WHY
00:24:37HE WANTED 2016 AND HAS FOR A LONG TIME.
00:24:39THERE IS A FAMOUS STORY IN A
00:24:42SMALL STORY -- SMALL CIRCLE ABOUT HIM BEING PRETTY ABUSIVE
00:24:46TO HER ONE NIGHT IN OCTOBER 2016 IN FRONT OF A GROUP OF PEOPLE AND SHE TOOK IT AND DID NOT FLINCH IN HIS PRESENCE.
00:24:52PART OF THE WHOLE ICE MAIDEN THING.
00:24:57BUT HE STUCK BY HER OVER TO
00:25:00SANTOS'S OBJECTIONS TO 2020. IN EARLY 2021 WHEN HE ASKED HER
00:25:04TO RUN WHAT WAS A PRETTY SHAPELESS POST PRESIDENTIAL
00:25:08PERIOD AT MAR-A-LAGO, SHE SAID YES.
00:25:11IT WAS A TIME THAT MOST PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT TO BE AROUND HIM FROM HIS OLD WORLD.
00:25:15EVERYONE NOW WOULD SAY I WAS
00:25:17ALWAYS WITH HIM, I NEVER LEFT, I
00:25:20ALWAYS BELIEVED HE WOULD WIN, AND WE CAN CONFIDENTLY TELL YOU THAT IS NOT TRUE.
00:25:27BUT SHE WAS WITH HIM AND SHE DID
00:25:29ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS A CLEAR PATH FOR WINNING.
00:25:32PETER: YOU STARTED THIS BOOK IN
00:25:352023 WHEN HE WAS OUT OF OFFICE. WHAT WAS THE SHAPE OF THE BOOK?
00:25:39DID YOU THINK HE WAS GOING TO WIN AGAIN? JONATHAN: I DID.
00:25:43SHE CAN VOUCH FOR THAT. MAGGIE: HE NEVER WAVERED ON IT.
00:25:47JONATHAN: BUT IT DIDN'T MATTER.
00:25:50WHEN WE DECIDED TO DO THE BOOK, WE DECIDED WE WANTED TO COVER
00:25:53THE FINAL ACT OF TRUMP, WHATEVER THAT ACT LOOK LIKE.
00:25:56SO THE BOOK EVOLVED A LOT. WE JUST STARTED REPORTING. THAT IS ALL WE COULD DO WAS TO
00:26:01REPORT. WASN'T GOING TO BE A CAMPAIGN
00:26:04BOOK IF YOU LOST THE CAMPAIGN? COULD IT END WITH HIM GOING TO
00:26:08PRISON? WE WERE JUST FOLLOWING A STORY WITH AN OPEN MIND AS TO WHERE COULD GO.
00:26:13WE HAVE BOTH COVERED TRUMP FOR A LONG TIME. THIS IS MY 11TH CONSECUTIVE YEAR
00:26:17OF TRUMP -- COVERING DONALD TRUMP.
00:26:20MAGGIE HAS COVERED HIM WITHIN THAT. SO WE JUST FOLLOW THE STORY.
00:26:24WHEN HE GOT INTO POWER, CAME
00:26:27BACK TO THE PRESIDENCY, I WOULD SAY ABOUT THREE OR FOUR MONTHS
00:26:31IN, WE REALIZED THIS WAS A
00:26:34CONSEQUENTIAL FIRST YEAR OF A PRESIDENCY LIKE NOTHING THAT HAS
00:26:37HAPPENED IN OUR LIFETIME, THAT THE FOCUS OF THE BOOK REALLY
00:26:41NEEDED TO BE HIS RETURN TO THE PRESIDENCY. WE MADE A PRETTY PAINFUL
00:26:46DECISION, WHICH STILL HURTS ME
00:26:49DEEP INSIDE, WHICH WAS, WE
00:26:56JETTISONED, WE THROUGHOUT, METAPHORICALLY, IT STILL EXISTS
00:26:59SOMEWHERE, THOUSANDS OF PAGES OF REPORTING AND WORK FROM ABOUT A
00:27:03YEAR AND A HALF ALL THROUGH
00:27:102024.
00:27:11THIS IS US WORKING, KILLING
00:27:16OURSELVES, TONS OF BEHIND-THE-SCENES STUFF, BECAUSE WE DECIDED THAT REPORTING JUST
00:27:19DID NOT MEET THE BAR THAT WE WANTED. THE ONLY MATERIAL YOU WILL FIND
00:27:23IN THE BOOK FROM THE 2024
00:27:26PERIOD IS THE MATERIAL WE FEEL HELPS ILLUMINATE WHAT WE ARE
00:27:29LIVING THROUGH THROUGH THIS PRESIDENCY.
00:27:31WE WERE INCREDIBLY RUTHLESS ABOUT WHAT WE DID AND DID NOT INCLUDE.
00:27:36SO THE CUTTING ROOM, EVERY BOOK HAS A BIG CUTTING ROOM FLOOR.
00:27:39MAGGIE: IT IS A PRETTY BIG ONE.
00:27:42JONATHAN: THIS WAS A PRETTY
00:27:45FREAKING WAREHOUSE OF THE CUTTING ROOM FLOOR AND IT STILL
00:27:49HURTS ME AS YOU CAN SEE. PETER: YOU HAVE BOTH INTERVIEWED HIM IN THE PAST.
00:27:52BUT MIKE ASKED -- BUT MY GUESS
00:27:56IS YOU BOTH HAVE HIS CELL PHONE NUMBER.
00:28:00IF YOU CALLED, AND WE WILL NOT MAKE YOU DO IT, TRUST ME. MAGGIE: I WOULD NOT DO IT.
00:28:04PETER: WOULD YOU PICK UP?
00:28:06MAGGIE: -- WOULD HE PICK UP?
00:28:10MAGGIE: I DON'T THINK SO. MAYBE.
00:28:15WE PERSONALLY HAVE NOT TALKED TO HIM VERY MUCH RATHER THAN DAY-TO-DAY WHICH WE WRITE ABOUT.
00:28:18PETER: BECAUSE OF THE BOOK?
00:28:21MAGGIE: BECAUSE OF A COUPLE OF THINGS.
00:28:25WE MADE A CONCERTED EFFORT TO GET HIM TO SIT WITH US FOR THIS BOOK.
00:28:29IT DID NOT LOOK LIKE IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN AND IT WAS
00:28:32BECOMING CLEAR TO US WE WERE
00:28:34GOING TO HAVE TO GO TO HIM
00:28:36DIRECTLY TO ASK BECAUSE WE HAD TRIED THROUGH THE FRONT DOOR OF
00:28:40THE WHITE HOUSE AND THAT WAS NOT GETTING US ANYWHERE FAR.
00:28:43THIS IS A BOOK WHERE HE IS THE SUBJECT. WE WANTED TO GIVE HIM THE
00:28:47OPPORTUNITY TO ANSWER DIRECT QUESTIONS. WE ALSO DID NOT WANT TO HAVE IT
00:28:51JUST BE OPEN MIC NIGHT, HAVE HIM SIT DOWN, HOW WAS THE NEWS OF
00:28:54THE DAY, SIR.
00:28:57CLEARLY, NEWS HAS COME FROM PEOPLE CALLING HIM IN THE LAST
00:29:00HOWEVER MANY MONTHS IT HAS BEEN.
00:29:03NEVER BEEN VERY REVEALING
00:29:06COMMENTS HE MADE, THE ONE ABOUT
00:29:08HOW HE TALKED AT THE ATLANTIC
00:29:11ABOUT HOW AMERICA FIRST MEANS WHATEVER I SAY IT MEANS.
00:29:14LAST YEAR WHEN HE WAS FIRST
00:29:17INVOLVED IN AN INCURSION INTO IRAN, THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER
00:29:21PIECES OF NEWS THAT EMERGED BUT
00:29:22IN GENERAL, THESE CALLS WHEN
00:29:27PEOPLE MAKE THEM, THEY LAST ABOUT TWO AND A HALF MINUTES.
00:29:30HE DICTATES THE TERMS OF THE DISCUSSION, AND IT IS A WAY TO
00:29:34APPEAR A DISPLAY OF
00:29:39TRANSPARENCY.
00:29:45THE MOST TRANSPARENT PRESIDENT IN HISTORY, WHICH IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE.
00:29:52THIS IS NOT A TRANSPARENT ADMINISTRATION.
00:29:55SO THOSE CALLS ALLOW HIM TO
00:29:57MAINTAIN THAT THE NEAR WHILE --
00:30:00VENEER WHILE REALLY NOT ANSWERING MUCH AT ALL.
00:30:08PETER: WHEN HE HAS AN OVAL OFFICE MEETING, AND SAYS DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, YOU CAN ASK HIM ANYTHING YOU WANTED?
00:30:11JONATHAN: THE WHITE HOUSE DECIDES WHO IS IN THE POOL.
00:30:16SO IF I'M SELECTED IN THE POOL, SURE.
00:30:20BUT THE COMPOSITION OF THE POOL HAS CHANGED FROM WHAT IT USED TO BE. THERE ARE MORE FRIENDLY
00:30:24REPORTERS THERE.
00:30:25IT IS TRUE, LET ME BE CLEAR.
00:30:30HE ANSWERS MORE QUESTIONS THAN JOE BIDEN.
00:30:32HE IS MORE AVAILABLE, THERE ARE REPORTERS ASKING HIM QUESTIONS WHEN THEY ARE IN THE POOL.
00:30:37BUT MAGGIE AND I FIND THE TYPE
00:30:41OF REPORTING WE DO IN THIS BOOK, THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT TYPES
00:30:44OF REPORTING BUT WHEN WE GOT --
00:30:46WANT TO GET INSIDE A ROOM FOR
00:30:49THE SENSITIVE CONVERSATIONS, THE
00:30:50WAY TO GET THAT IS NOT TO CALL DONALD TRUMP ON HIS CELL PHONE FOR THREE MINUTES.
00:30:54IT'S NOT THAT USEFUL.
00:30:55PETER: JONATHAN AND MAGGIE, IN
00:31:00"REGIME CHANGE," YOU ARE IN THE
00:31:03OVAL OFFICE AND YOU HAVE CONVERSATIONS GOING ON.
00:31:07ARE WE LOOKING AT AUDIO TAPES OR TRANSCRIPTS?
00:31:10IS A LEGAL FOR YOU TO HAVE
00:31:14POTENTIALLY NATIONAL SECURITY TRANSCRIPTS IN YOUR POSITION? MAGGIE: WE ARE NOT GOING TO
00:31:18DISCUSS SOURCING.
00:31:19WE HAVE AN EXTENSIVE BIT ABOUT
00:31:24SOURCING AT THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK AND WE DESCRIBE HOW WE CONDUCTED OVER 1000 INTERVIEWS
00:31:27AND MADE DECISIONS ABOUT USING DIRECT QUOTES, HOW WE DECIDED TO
00:31:31USE THINGS THAT, AS BACKGROUND
00:31:34DISCUSSIONS, AND WE DESCRIBE THE
00:31:36PROCESS BY WHICH WE DID
00:31:38INTERVIEWS WHICH IS ON THE JOURNALISTIC UNDERSTANDING OF
00:31:42DEEP BACKGROUND. PETER: THE PRESIDENT HAD A REACTION TO YOUR BOOK AS I'M
00:31:45SURE YOU HAVE SEEN BUT WE WANT TO SHOW OUR AUDIENCE.
00:31:49BASED ON A VERY QUICK AND BORING BRIEFING CONCERNING THE "MAGOT"
00:31:52HAGERMAN BOOK ABOUT ME, IT IS
00:31:58MOSTLY MADE UP, FAKE NEWS, LARGELY FICTION, AS HAVE BEEN
00:32:01MOST OF THE THINGS SHE HAS WRITTEN ABOUT ME FOR SO MANY YEARS.
00:32:04SHE IS A THIRD RATE WRITER AND INTELLECT TO HAS MADE A FIRST
00:32:08RATE INCOME BECAUSE OF YOUR
00:32:11FAVORITE PRESIDENT, ME.
00:32:12THEY DON'T HAVE THE AUDIOTAPES THEY IMPLY THEY HAVE.
00:32:18IRAN WILL NEVER HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON. PRESIDENT DONALD J. TRUMP.
00:32:22DO YOU THINK HE TYPED THIS OUT HIMSELF ON HIS PHONE?
00:32:24MAGGIE: THE MARGOT IT IS A
00:32:30CONFUSING ADD BUT THAT WAS
00:32:32EITHER HIM, OR THERE IS A SMALL
00:32:36GROUP OF AIDES WHO IT COULD HAVE BEEN.
00:32:39NATALIE HARP WOULD BE ONE OF
00:32:43THEM. SHE SENSITIVE MATERIAL AND POSTINGS ON HIS BEHALF ACCORDING TO OUR REPORTING.
00:32:47SOMETIMES WITHOUT OTHER AIDES KNOWING IT SO I DON'T KNOW.
00:32:51PETER: OUR SUSIE WILES, STEPHEN
00:32:55MILLER, AVAILABLE TO YOU ON A REGULAR BASIS IS NEW YORK TIMES REPORTERS?
00:32:58MAGGIE: WE AREN'T GOING TO DISCUSS SOURCING.
00:33:01PETER: WHAT MOTIVATES STEPHEN
00:33:04MILLER ON THE ISSUES HE CARES ABOUT, PARTICULARLY IMMIGRATION?
00:33:07JONATHAN: IT RUNS PRETTY DEEPLY
00:33:09FOR STEPHEN MILLER, MORE DEEPLY THAN IT DOES FOR THE PRESIDENT.
00:33:13WHAT WE TRY TO DO IN THE BOOK FOR ALL THE MAIN PLAYERS IN THE
00:33:17ADMINISTRATION IS GIVE READERS A
00:33:20DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF THEM AND THEIR CHARACTER AND HOW THEY GREW UP.
00:33:24STEPHEN MILLER WAS AN INTERESTING EXAMPLE. HE GREW UP IN CALIFORNIA. PETER: SANTA MONICA.
00:33:28JONATHAN: VERY LIBERAL ENVIRONMENT.
00:33:31IN HIS VIEW OPPRESSIVELY SO.
00:33:35AND FROM A VERY EARLY AGE, HE
00:33:37WAS HIGHLY IDEOLOGICAL.
00:33:40HE WAS OBSESSED WITH THE RIGHT
00:33:43WING RADIO HOST RUSH LIMBAUGH. HE WOULD LISTEN TO HIM ALL THE TIME.
00:33:48HE WOULD CALL INTO ANOTHER
00:33:50RIGHT-WING RADIO HOST, LARRY ELDER, HE WOULD CALL INTO HIS
00:33:54RADIO SHOW WHEN HE WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL.
00:33:56HE WAS A SORT OF PROVOCATEUR AT HIS HIGH SCHOOL.
00:34:01THERE'S A CLIP ONLINE YOU WILL SEE IF YOU LOOK IT UP WHERE HE IS GIVING A SPEECH ABOUT WHY
00:34:07CAN'T THE JANITORS CLEAN UP OUR TRASH, YOU GET THE IDEA.
00:34:13HE CAME TO HIS ANTI-IMMIGRATION VIEWS AT A TIME IN CALIFORNIA
00:34:17WHERE EVEN THOUGH CALIFORNIA WAS
00:34:20OVERWHELMINGLY LIBERAL, THE POLITICS OF IMMIGRATION DURING
00:34:22HIS HIGH SCHOOL YEARS WERE VERY
00:34:25EXPLOSIVE IN CALIFORNIA.
00:34:29SO HE KIND OF GREW UP IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.
00:34:32AND STIRRING UNIVERSITY, HE GOT
00:34:35HIS FIRST TASTE OF REAL NATIONAL
00:34:40CELEBRITY, CELEBRITY IN THAT SMALL WORLD. HE WAS AT DUKE UNIVERSITY.
00:34:44AND YOU PROBABLY REMEMBER, THERE WERE LACROSSE PLAYERS ACCUSED OF
00:34:48RAPE.
00:34:51YOU KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON, STEPHEN MILLER BECAME ONE OF
00:34:54THEIR MOST VOCAL ADVOCATES AND DEFENDERS. TURNS OUT STEPHEN MILLER WAS RIGHT.
00:34:59THEY WERE FALSELY ACCUSED OF RAPE AND VINDICATED LATER.
00:35:05BUT THAT GOT STEPHEN MILLER ON FOX AND HE BECAME THIS
00:35:09AGGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE
00:35:11IDEOLOGUE ON FOX AND THAT SENT
00:35:15HIM TO CAPITOL HILL WHERE HE WAS
00:35:15THIS SORT OF FRINGE, AT THE
00:35:21TIME, ALMOST A GADFLY TYPE FIGURE. HE WOULD CALL REPORTERS LATE AT
00:35:24NIGHT, VERY FOCUSED ON HIS
00:35:28FASHION, HE USED TO WEAR A SILVER PINKY RING WITH BLACK DIAMONDS.
00:35:34VERY FOCUSED ON HIS TIES AND THE
00:35:37FABRICS OF HIS SUITS AND ALL OF THIS STUFF.
00:35:41BUT WHEN TRUMP RAN FOR PRESIDENT IN 2015, STEPHEN MILLER
00:35:45DESCRIBED TO OTHERS BEING ELECTRIFIED BY THAT FIRST SPEECH
00:35:48TRUMP GAVE WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT
00:35:50MEXICANS BEING RAPISTS AND THE HORDES COMING ACROSS THE BORDER.
00:35:56BASED ON OUR REPORTING, IT SEEMS LIKE STEPHEN MILLER IN THAT
00:36:00MOMENT, HE HAD BEEN LOOKING FOR
00:36:03A VESSEL FOR HIS IDEOLOGY.
00:36:06AND HE SAW I THINK IN DONALD TRUMP, SOMEBODY THAT HAD THE
00:36:10CHARISMA AND THE STAR POWER TO
00:36:13TAKE STEPHEN MILLER'S IDEAS AND REALLY ELEVATE THEM.
00:36:19AND FRANKLY, TO CRUSH THE OLD
00:36:21REPUBLICAN PARTY WHICH STEPHEN MILLER HAS CONTEMPT FOR.
00:36:29THE GEORGE W. BUSH COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATIVE, WELCOMING IMMIGRANTS.
00:36:32HE HAS A CONTEMPT FOR THAT PARTY AND WANTS IT TO BE GONE.
00:36:35HE SOUGHT TRUMP AS A VEHICLE AND BECAME ONE OF HIS MOST VALUED AIDS.
00:36:41VERY SMART GUY, RELENTLESS.
00:36:43HAS A VISION AND STICKS TO IT.
00:36:49WAS AS WELL-PREPARED AS ANYONE FOR THE SECOND TERM.
00:36:51PETER: WHAT IS IT LIKE TO BE ON
00:36:54THE RECEIVING END OF A TRUTH SOCIAL POST LIKE THIS OR A
00:36:58CALLOUT IN THE OVAL OFFICE TELLING YOU YOU ARE TERRIBLE AND AWFUL?
00:37:03MAGGIE: I DON'T THINK YOU WOULD LIKE IT.
00:37:10BUT SECONDLY, THIS IS NOT THE
00:37:10FIRST TIME, THIRD, FOURTH, FIFTH
00:37:14TIME HE HAS ATTACKED ME.
00:37:16JONATHAN HAS ALSO BEEN ATTACKED. BY HIM IT DOESN'T IMPACT HOW WE
00:37:20DO OUR JOB.
00:37:21THE ATTACKS COME FAR MORE
00:37:24FREQUENTLY AND SIMILARLY TO MOST OF THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA AT THIS
00:37:28POINT. AND NOT MAINSTREAM MEDIA. IT'S JUST WHAT HE DOES.
00:37:33THAT HE ONCE. HE IS PERFECTLY ENTITLED TO.
00:37:37PETER: FROM YOUR BOOK, POLICY IS
00:37:42WHATEVER THE PRESIDENT SAID LAST. MAGGIE: ACCURATE.
00:37:44IN FACT, YOU ARE SEEING IT MUST
00:37:48VISIBLY RECENTLY, ON THIS BIPARTISAN HOUSING BILL WHERE
00:37:52THIS WAS ONE OF THE FEW TIMES I
00:37:53THINK -- WE HAVE BEEN STRUCK AND
00:37:57WE TALKED ABOUT THIS A LOT OVER
00:38:00THE PAST HOUR, OR HOWEVER LONG WE HAVE BEEN HERE, PART OF THE
00:38:04IMPETUS IN WRITING THE BOOK IS
00:38:07HOW DIFFERENT THIS TERM, UNRECOGNIZABLE THIS TERM IS FROM THE FIRST TERM.
00:38:11THERE WAS A MOMENT OF
00:38:14FAMILIARITY IN RECENT DAYS WHEN YOU HAD TOP ADVISERS TO THE
00:38:18PRESIDENT TALK ABOUT, THEY HAVE
00:38:21BEEN TRYING TO GET HIM TO FOCUS ON AFFORDABILITY AND COST OF
00:38:26LIVING FOR AVERAGE VOTERS FOR SOME TIME. ONE OF THE DOCUMENTS THAT WE GOT
00:38:29OUR HANDS ON IN THE REPORTING OF
00:38:31THE BOOK WAS PRIVATE POLLING
00:38:34INSIDE TRUMP'S WORLD WHERE --
00:38:36PETER: TONY FABRIZIO.
00:38:38MAGGIE: WHO HAS PULLED FOR TRUMP
00:38:43SINCE THE 1990'S, WHICH IS A
00:38:45SIDE STORY BUT TRUMP'S TEAM
00:38:48REALLY BELIEVES IN THOSE NUMBERS WITH REASON.
00:38:51HE ACCURATELY CALLED TO THE
00:38:55MARGIN OF ERROR OF THE SWING STATES IN TERMS OF TRUMP'S VICTORY MARGIN.
00:39:01THAT WAS PRETTY REMARKABLE.
00:39:02WHEN I SAY ON-AIR THAT RUMP WON
00:39:07OVERWHELMINGLY, HE DIDN'T WIN THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULAR VOTE.
00:39:11HE IS THE FIRST REPUBLICAN TO WIN THE POPULAR VOTE IN 20 YEARS.
00:39:16AS WELL AS A SIZABLE ELECTORAL
00:39:20COLLEGE VICTORY. SO IT WAS A DEFINITIVE WIN THAT
00:39:24HE DIDN'T HAVE AN 2016.
00:39:25FABRIZIO HAS A MEMO THAT HE
00:39:30CIRCULATES, AND HE CIRCULATES POLLING TO A SMALL GROUP OF
00:39:34PEOPLE AROUND TRUMP ON A FAIRLY REGULAR BASIS.
00:39:36THIS ONE WE GOT WAS IN DECEMBER
00:39:40OF 2025, AFTER TRUMP HAD DONE A SPEECH THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE
00:39:44ABOUT AFFORDABILITY.
00:39:45AND INSTEAD TRUMP REFERRED TO
00:39:49AFFORDABILITY AS I THINK A CON JOB IN THAT SPEECH.
00:39:53IF I'M DESCRIBING WORDS HE DIDN'T ACTUALLY SAY AT THAT EVENT.
00:39:56FABRIZIO'S POLLING MEMO SAYS
00:40:01UNLESS THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE
00:40:02GOP ARE HONEST, HONEST IN ALL
00:40:05CAPS, WITH VOTERS, THEY WILL
00:40:09HAVE REAL PROBLEMS WITH THE MIDTERMS. SO YOU HAVE SEEN AN EFFORT BY THE WHITE HOUSE TO TRY TO GET
00:40:14TRUMP TO FOCUS ON THIS AS OPPOSED TO HIS REDECORATING
00:40:18PROJECTS, AS OPPOSED TO
00:40:19MONUMENTS TO HIMSELF, OR
00:40:24BEAUTIFICATION PROJECTS AROUND D.C. OR REVAMPING A GOLF COURSE
00:40:26THAT DOESN'T ACTUALLY BELONG TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AS FAR AS WE CAN TELL.
00:40:31BUT HE -- THERE WAS A BIPARTISAN
00:40:36HOUSING BILL THAT WAS WIDELY
00:40:39SEEN AS SOMETHING THAT WOULD
00:40:41ADVANTAGE PEOPLE RIGHT NOW IN THEIR FINANCIAL CRISES.
00:40:46AND TRUMP AFTER HIS OWN AIDES
00:40:51TOUTED IT AS PROMISES MADE,
00:40:53PROMISES KEPT, TORPEDOED SIGNING IT BECAUSE HE WANTS INSTEAD THE
00:40:56SENATE TO PASS A BILL THAT THE
00:41:00REPUBLICAN SENATORS MADE CLEAR THERE IS NO MAJORITY TO PASS,
00:41:03WHICH IS A VOTING BILL CALLED,
00:41:06HE CALLS IT THE SAVE AMERICA
00:41:08ACT, THAT WOULD PUT MASSIVE RESTRICTIONS ON WHO CAN VOTE AND
00:41:12HOW.
00:41:12THERE ARE ALREADY LAWS ABOUT
00:41:17ONLY AMERICANS CAN VOTE IN ELECTIONS. THAT FELT LIKE TERM ONE, WHERE
00:41:20THE AIDES WOULD SAY SOMETHING
00:41:22AND HE WOULD PULL IT BACK BUT
00:41:25YOU HAVE SEEN A LOT LESS OF THAT THIS TIME IN PART BECAUSE HIS
00:41:29AIDES ARE RELUCTANT TO GET AHEAD OF HIM.
00:41:32IT'S A IS WHATEVER THE PRESIDENT
00:41:34SAYS IT IS -- SO POLICY IS WHATEVER THE PRESIDENT SAYS IT
00:41:38IS. PETER: IS JD VANCE USUALLY IN THE ROOM FOR DECISIONS?
00:41:42MAGGIE: YES. PETER: HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE RELATIONSHIP?
00:41:45JONATHAN: SO TRUMP LOVES A
00:41:49CONVERT. AND THERE ARE PLENTY OF THEM AROUND HIM.
00:41:53IT'S FUNNY.
00:41:54THE PEOPLE AROUND TRUMP, A
00:41:58COUPLE OF THEM IN SENIOR ROLES, ALMOST NO ONE HAS SAID WORSE THINGS.
00:42:02RUBIO CALLED HIM A CON ARTIST.
00:42:05VANCE PRIVATELY COMPARED HIM TO HITLER.
00:42:09LOVES A CONVERT SO THAT IS NUMBER ONE.
00:42:12NUMBER TWO, HE CAME INTO TRUMP'S
00:42:14ORBIT LARGELY THROUGH THE DONALD
00:42:17TRUMP, JR. TUCKER CARLSON
00:42:21FRAMEWORK AS AN ANTIWAR,
00:42:25POPULIST, MAGA TO THE NTH
00:42:29DEGREE, MORE MAGA THAN TRUMP IN
00:42:33TERMS OF BELIEVING AND
00:42:37ANTI-INTERVENTIONISM, MORE HARD-CORE ON IMMIGRATION.
00:42:41HE GOT TRUMP'S BLESSING FOR THE
00:42:42SENATE RACE AND THEN RAN A
00:42:46PRETTY AGGRESSIVE CAMPAIGN WITH HIS ALLIES TO BECOME THE VICE PRESIDENT. PETER: INCLUDING DONALD TRUMP, JR.
00:42:50JONATHAN: HE WAS HUGE.
00:42:52AND ELON MUSK AND CHARLIE KIRK
00:42:55AND TUCKER CARLSON. . TRUMP THOUGHT HE WAS BRILLIANT
00:42:59ON TELEVISION. HE WOULD SEE HIM IN THE DEBATES,
00:43:02HE WOULD SEE HIM GO TO COMBATIVE
00:43:06ENVIRONMENTS LIKE WHEN HE GOES ON CNN.
00:43:09TRUMP WOULD COMMENT HOW HANDSOME
00:43:11, GOOD-LOOKING GUY AS HE OFTEN DOES.
00:43:15AND TRUMP WAS IMPRESSED HE GOT
00:43:19INTO YALE WITHOUT HAVING A RICH DADDY. THAT BEING SAID, THERE ARE
00:43:22PEOPLE IN THE WHITE HOUSE WHO HAVE OBSERVED THAT TRUMP HAS A
00:43:25WARMER PERSONAL CHEMISTRY WITH
00:43:28MARCO RUBIO AND TRUMP AS WE DOCUMENT IN THE BOOK, REALLY
00:43:31LIKES TO MESS WITH VANCE.
00:43:34AND BRING RUBIO IN.
00:43:39WHEN HE SELECTS THIS YOUNG GUY AS HIS VICE PRESIDENT, COURSE
00:43:43THE NATURAL OBSERVATION IS,
00:43:47WELL, HE HAS ANOINTED HIS HEIR, THE 2028 CANDIDATE.
00:43:52BUT TRUMP HAS GONE OUT OF HIS WAY TO MAKE CLEAR THAT HE
00:43:55DOESN'T NECESSARILY VIEW IT THAT WAY.
00:43:58HE IS OFTEN PITTING THEM AGAINST EACH OTHER, ASKING PEOPLE WHO THEY PREFER.
00:44:03HAVE A WILD SCENE IN THE BOOK
00:44:05WHERE RUPERT MURDOCH COMES TO
00:44:08THE WHITE HOUSE FOR DINNER. THAT WAS LAST YEAR.
00:44:12THEY ARE IN THE BLUE, WHICH IS
00:44:13THIS VERY ORNATE, OPULENT ROOM
00:44:18IN THE WHITE HOUSE. THEY ARE SITTING AROUND THE TABLE.
00:44:21AND IT IS RUPERT MURDOCH, TRUMP,
00:44:24A FEW AIDES, VANCE AND RUBIO AT THE TABLE.
00:44:28TRUMP SAYS, RUPERT, I LIKE BOTH OF THEM. THEY ARE BOTH GREAT.
00:44:33WHAT DO YOU THINK OF JD?
00:44:36AND MURDOCH, MURDOCH -- WHO HAD
00:44:41GONE OUT OF HIS WAY TO TRY TO PREVENT VANCE FROM BEING THE
00:44:44VICE PRESIDENT, HE SAYS YOU KNOW , JD HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE GREAT.
00:44:50AND VANCE IS THANKS, RUPERT. SORT OF THIS FUNNY MOMENT.
00:44:55VERY LOADED, AWKWARD MOMENT. TRUMP SAYS WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT MARCO?
00:44:59AND MURDOCH STONE COLD, DOESN'T
00:45:02MISS A BEAT. HE SAYS MARCO IS BRILLIANT.
00:45:06SO THAT WAS A MOMENT WHERE TRUMP
00:45:09LITERALLY IN FRONT OF THEM WHILE THEY WERE SITTING THERE WITH THE
00:45:11MOST POWERFUL PROPRIETOR OF
00:45:16CONSERVATIVE MEDIA AND AMERICAN HISTORY, GETS HIM TO ESSENTIALLY
00:45:18DO A BEAUTY PAGEANT OF HIS SUCCESSOR. THAT IS THE DYNAMIC.
00:45:23LET'S SAY IT'S COMPLICATED. PETER: YOU REPORT ALSO THAT
00:45:26MARCO RUBIO HAS BASICALLY MOVED INTO THE WHITE HOUSE SO HE CAN
00:45:31BE THE LAST ONE IN THE ROOM IN A SENSE.
00:45:32MAGGIE: MARCO RUBIO PRIMARILY
00:45:35WORKS OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE IN OUR EXPERIENCE. I THINK THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM
00:45:39MIGHT CONTEST THE EXACT NUMBER OF HOURS HE SPENDS THERE VERSUS
00:45:43THE STATE DEPARTMENT. HE HAS TOLD SOME ADVISORS, HE
00:45:47TRIES TO START HIS DAYS AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT BUT I CAN TELL
00:45:50YOU BASED ON EXPERIENCE, JONATHAN HAD THE SAME EXPERIENCE
00:45:52AS WE COVERED THIS WHITE HOUSE, BACK IN THE DAY WHEN YOU COULD
00:45:56WALK UP TO UPPER PRESS, WHERE
00:46:00THE PRESS SECRETARY'S OFFICE IS, IT IS NO LIMITED BUT -- UNLESS YOU HAVE AN APPOINTMENT.
00:46:06RUBIO WOULD BE RUNNING AROUND FROM ONE OFFICE TO THE NEXT.
00:46:09WHAT WAS STRIKING WAS HE CLEARLY
00:46:12SEEMED TO BE ENJOYING HIS ROLE,
00:46:16ENJOYING THE AND THIS PARTICULAR ONE MILLION.
00:46:23--MILIEU. WHAT RUBIO WANTS LONG-TERM WE
00:46:27CAN'T SAY. HE ISN'T DOING ANY OF THE THINGS
00:46:31ONE WOULD DO IF ONE WERE RUNNING
00:46:31FOR PRESIDENT.
00:46:36WE WRITE ABOUT HOW SUPPORTIVE HE WAS OF VANCE IN 2024 WHEN VANCE HAD THAT, WHAT HE DESCRIBES AS
00:46:40AN ILL ADVISED SINGLE CAP LADIES
00:46:43COMMENT OR WHATEVER IT WAS HE SAID.
00:46:44CHILDLESS CAT LADIES.
00:46:49RUBIO WAS SUPPORTIVE AND THEY DO HAVE AN ACTUAL FRIENDSHIP.
00:46:53DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING IN POLITICS BUT RUBIO IS AROUND TRUMP A LOT.
00:46:59TRUMP LIKES TALKING TO RUBIO. IT IS NOT JUST THE PERSONAL
00:47:03CHEMISTRY, IT IS THE WAY HE PRESENTS INFORMATION TO HIM. JONATHAN: THAT'S ANOTHER THING.
00:47:08HE'S THE SECRETARY OF STATE WHO BARELY TRAVELS, WHICH IS HIGHLY UNUSUAL.
00:47:12BUT IT IS ALSO SMART BECAUSE HE
00:47:15UNDERSTANDS, RUBIO UNDERSTANDS THAT IF YOU ARE NOT IN THE ROOM
00:47:18WITH TRUMP, IF YOU AREN'T LITERALLY THERE, YOU ARE OUT OF
00:47:22THE LOOP. THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS IN THAT LITTLE OVAL OFFICE.
00:47:28TRUMP MAKES THE DECISIONS.
00:47:31I DON'T WANT TO BE TOO SWEEPING, BUT THERE IS NOT MUCH OF AN INTERAGENCY PROCESS.
00:47:36THERE IS NOT A HUGE AMOUNT OF COORDINATION ACROSS AGENCIES. IT'S A VERY SMALL GROUP.
00:47:40IF YOU AREN'T IN THE ROOM, NOT
00:47:43ONLY DO YOU NOT HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO WEIGH IN ON THE
00:47:46ISSUE, YOU MAY NOT EVEN KNOW ABOUT A DECISION THAT IS MADE.
00:47:50HE MAKES DECISIONS VERY QUICKLY, IN MANY CASES IMPULSIVELY ON THE
00:47:54SPOT. IF YOU ARE THERE, YOU AREN'T THERE.
00:47:57PETER: THE TARIFF ISSUE SEEMED TO BE AD HOC IN A SENSE.
00:48:01MAGGIE: NOT ALMOST.
00:48:04A COLLEAGUE OF OURS TEXTED ME, I
00:48:09WAS READING THE BOOK, TEXTED ME LAST NIGHT AND SAID I WAS GOING
00:48:12TO WAIT UNTIL THEY FINISHED THE BOOK TO TELL YOU WHAT I THOUGHT BUT I JUST FINISHED THE TARIFF
00:48:16SEEN AND I CAN'T GET OVER THIS. MY JAW IS ON THE FLOOR ABOUT HOW REVEALING THIS WAS.
00:48:23AND WE HAVE THIS VERY DETAILED INSIDE THE ROOM REPORTING ABOUT
00:48:28HOW THIS FORMULA FOR THE GLOBAL
00:48:29TRADE WAR THAT TRUMP WAS ABOUT
00:48:33TO BRING HIM TO THE WORLD, AND TRUMP -- HIS ADVISORS WILL SAY
00:48:36AND THEY ARE RIGHT, HE HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT TARIFFS FOR
00:48:40DECADES. BUT LITERALLY THE WORD TARIFF. IT'S IN THE CONTEXT OF OTHER
00:48:44COUNTRIES RIPPING US OFF. IT'S NOT A LONG-HELD ECONOMIC
00:48:46THEORY AND HOW IT MIGHT WORK.
00:48:51IT SOMETHING HE WANTED TO DO IN HIS FIRST TERM AND HE DIDN'T FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS, BUT ONE OF
00:48:54THEM WAS HE HAD AIDES LIKE GARY
00:48:57COHEN WHOSE ECONOMIC
00:49:01CREDENTIALS, HIS ECONOMIC ADVISOR WHOSE CREDENTIALS TRUMP
00:49:05RESPECTED OR AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGED WERE SUBSTANTIAL.
00:49:08GARY COHEN WAS WILLING TO GET IN
00:49:12TRUMP'S FACE AND SAY DON'T DO THIS. AS WE HAVE SAID, THERE IS LESS
00:49:15OF THAT THIS TIME. THIS IS SOMETHING TRUMP WANTED
00:49:19TO TRY FOR A LONG TIME. THIS FORMULA FOR TARIFFS WAS
00:49:23ESSENTIALLY DONE THE NIGHT BEFORE.
00:49:27IT WAS LARGELY, NOT ENTIRELY BUT
00:49:30LARGELY TRUMP'S PROTECTIONIST
00:49:31ADVISOR, WHO TRUMP LIKES A LOT FOR A LOT OF REASONS.
00:49:37THE FORMULA BECAME UNEXPLAINABLE FOR THE GOVERNMENT.
00:49:40WE DESCRIBE HOW TWO THINGS WENT.
00:49:44TRUMP WAS IN MANY CASES JUST COMING UP WITH AN INCREASED
00:49:48TARIFF RATE OFF THE TOP OF HIS HEAD. PUT THEM IN FOR 10 IN MANY
00:49:52CASES, AS IF THIS WAS A LEDGER AS OPPOSED TO A TRADE FORMULA.
00:49:55THE OTHER IS, IT WAS STUNNING TO
00:49:59US AS WE WERE REPORTING AND WE REPORTING IT IN PREPARATION FOR
00:50:02THE BOOK, TO STRESS TEST
00:50:07INFORMATION, THE PEOPLE AROUND
00:50:08TRUMP WERE SO ALARMED AT HOW
00:50:12THIS WAS GOING, NOT ALL OF THEM, BUT MANY OF THEM, EITHER THEY
00:50:16DIDN'T THINK HE WAS GOING TO REALLY GO THROUGH WITH THE
00:50:19TARIFF REGIME, OR THEY THOUGHT HE WOULD ALLOW MORE CARVEOUTS.
00:50:22THEY STARTED TO GET ANGRY. BUT HE REALLY TOOK THE GLOBAL ECONOMY TO THE BRINK.
00:50:27AND IT WAS REALLY ONLY WHEN THE BOND MARKETS WERE AT THE POINT
00:50:30OF MELTDOWN THAT HE PULLED BACK.
00:50:34SO LIBERATION DAY, THE TARIFF WAR DAY BEGINS APRIL 2.
00:50:39A FEW DAYS LATER, APRIL 6 I
00:50:44THINK, THE TREASURY SECRETARY AND COMMERCE SECRETARY IN THE
00:50:47CABIN OF AIR FORCE ONE ON THE FLIGHT FROM FLORIDA SAID WE NEED TO PULL BACK. THERE ARE WARNING SIGNS.
00:50:52IT TOOK ANOTHER TWO AND A HALF DAYS.
00:50:55PETER: STEVE WITKOFF SEEMS TO
00:50:59HAVE SEVERAL JOBS IN THE WHITE
00:51:01HOUSE BUT IT IS NOT AN OFFICIAL
00:51:05GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE, IS THAT CORRECT? JONATHAN: HE IS. MAGGIE: HE IS AN ENVOY.
00:51:09I DON'T THINK HE IS A SPECIAL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE. . HE COULDN'T BE IN THIS LONG.
00:51:13PETER: HE IS WORKING ON RUSSIA, THE MIDDLE EAST? MAGGIE: HE IS AN ENVOY FOR
00:51:18EVERYTHING. PETER: A LONGTIME FRIEND OF PRESIDENT TRUMP?
00:51:21MAGGIE: GOING BACK TO THE 1980'S.
00:51:25HIS FORMER LAWYER WHO BECAME A REAL ESTATE DEVELOPER HIMSELF. PETER: THERE IS ANOTHER
00:51:28CHARACTER IN THE BOOK, NATALIE HARP.
00:51:31WHO IS NATALIE HARP AND WHAT IS
00:51:33HER ROLE IN THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE?
00:51:36JONATHAN: SHE IS A YOUNG WOMAN
00:51:39WHO USED TO BE A TV HOST ON
00:51:43OANN, WHICH IS A FAR RIGHT
00:51:45NETWORK, VERY INVOLVED IN THE
00:51:49POST-2020 CONSPIRACY THEORIES ABOUT THE ELECTION. EXTREMELY DEVOTED TO TRUMP.
00:51:53AND HE HIRED HER WHEN HE LEFT OFFICE.
00:51:56SHE BECAME THIS SORT OF EVER PRESENT AIDE.
00:52:01SHE WOULD FOLLOW HIM AROUND, THEY CALL HER THE HUMAN PRINTER
00:52:05BECAUSE SHE CARRIES A PORTABLE PRINTER IN HER BACKPACK. SHE IS ALWAYS PRINTING HIM
00:52:09STORIES THAT ARE GOOD NEWS, STORIES TO MAKE HIM FEEL GOOD.
00:52:13THAT WAS DURING HIS LOW AND
00:52:16AFTER LEAVING OFFICE. SHE WOULD FOLLOW HIM AROUND ON
00:52:20THE GOLF COURSE WITH A PRINTER. MAGGIE: ON FOOT SOMETIMES.
00:52:22JONATHAN: SOMETIMES ON FOOT.
00:52:25WE OBTAINED REPORTING FOR THE
00:52:28BOOK, SOME LETTERS THAT SHE HAD
00:52:31WRITTEN TO THE PRESIDENT DURING THE CAMPAIGN.
00:52:35THEY WERE VERY UNUSUAL LETTERS, VERY PERSONAL.
00:52:39AND THEY WERE LEFT IN SOME OF HIS PRIVATE SPACES.
00:52:44AND THEY WERE INCLUDED, THEY INCLUDED LINES LIKE YOU ARE ALL
00:52:48THAT MATTERS TO ME, WAS ONE OF THE QUOTES.
00:52:53SECRET SERVICE BECAME AWARE OF
00:52:53IT, AND SOME OF THE SECRET
00:52:58SERVICE AGENTS BECAME QUITE ALARMED BY THE BEHAVIOR, BUT TRUMP WASN'T.
00:53:02HE WOULD SAY THINGS LIKE, SHE IS
00:53:04THE ONLY ONE, HE WOULD JOKE BUT
00:53:08IT IS NEVER QUITE A JOKE, SHE IS
00:53:09THE ONLY ONE WHO LOVES ME. SHE WILL BE WITH ME, YOU WILL
00:53:13ALL GO MAKE MONEY BUT SHE WILL BE WITH ME. I THINK HE VERY MUCH APPRECIATE
00:53:17HER DEVOTION AND LOYALTY AND THAT SHE WILL DO THINGS VERY
00:53:21QUICKLY. SHE REPRESENTS SOMETHING LARGER
00:53:24IN HIS WORLD, SOMETHING THAT, HE
00:53:28ALWAYS HAD PEOPLE AROUND HIM WHO ARE DEVOTED, SYCOPHANTS OR WHATEVER.
00:53:32SHE IS OF A DIFFERENT ORDER.
00:53:36AND SHE IS ALSO A CONDUIT.
00:53:38WHEN PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE WANT TO GET INFORMATION TO DONALD
00:53:42TRUMP AND THEY DON'T NECESSARILY WANT TO GO THROUGH ANY TYPE OF
00:53:46VETTING FOR THE CHIEF OF STAFF, THEY CAN GO THROUGH NATALIE AND
00:53:49SHE WILL SHOW IT TO HIM. SHE IS A CONDUIT, SHE IS A
00:53:54PROVIDER OF GOOD NEWS, SHE IS
00:53:56SOMEONE WHO IS ALWAYS THERE.
00:54:00SHE SITS IN THE OVAL OFFICE WITH HER LAPTOP UP AND BACK AGAINST THE WALL. PETER: IN EVERY MEETING?
00:54:03MAGGIE: ALMOST EVERY MEETING. JONATHAN: JUST ABOUT EVERY MEETING.
00:54:08THAT IS NATALIE HARP. MAGGIE: YOU ASKED ABOUT BORIS EPSTEIN.
00:54:13WHEN YOU WERE TALKING, PART OF
00:54:14NATALIE HARP'S REMIT IS
00:54:20ESTABLISHED BY HERSELF IN THE PRESIDENT, IS PROVIDING HIM WITH GOOD NEWS.
00:54:24THE WAY THAT TRUMP DESCRIBES
00:54:28BORIS EPSTEIN IN PRIVATE, NO I
00:54:31CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER WHICH IS THE
00:54:34ACCURATE PRONUNCIATION, HE WOULD
00:54:36SAY THINGS LIKE, HE IS MY
00:54:40PSYCHIATRIST. HOW MUCH HE LIKES HOW BORIS IS NEUROTIC.
00:54:43HE WILL CLAIM THE BORIS, HE
00:54:44WOULD SAY IN 2023 WHEN TRUMP WAS
00:54:49FACING A DIET HENCE, IF I WAS
00:54:52ABOUT TO GET INDICTED BORIS WOULD SAY IT IS GREAT FOR ME.
00:54:55BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY TRUMP LIKES HAVING BORIS AROUND.
00:55:02SOMETIMES YOU WANT SOMEONE WHO CAN MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD.
00:55:04AND SOMEONE DO WHATEVER YOU WANT.
00:55:09AND THOSE TWO PEOPLE, THERE
00:55:12REALLY IS -- THERE ARE FEW PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE ACTUAL
00:55:15GOVERNMENT WHO WILL DO LITERALLY WHATEVER TRUMP WANTS.
00:55:18THERE ARE SOME AND SO FAR I
00:55:22WOULD SAY BASED ON A REPORTING,
00:55:23BILL POSEY -- BILL PULTE, ACTING
00:55:28DIRECTOR OF INTELLIGENCE, IS
00:55:32POSITIONING HIMSELF THAT WAY. HARP IS IN THE GOVERNMENT BUT
00:55:35SHE IS IN A DIFFERENT CATEGORY. PETER: THE BOOK HAS BEEN THE
00:55:39HARDEST THING EITHER OF US HAS EVER DONE PROFESSIONALLY. WHY YOU SAY THAT?
00:55:42MAGGIE: ACCURATE.
00:55:44JONATHAN: GET A BETTER ANSWER IF YOU SAT DOWN WITH MY WIFE.
00:55:48MAGGIE: OR MY HUSBAND.
00:55:50JONATHAN: SHE PROHIBITED ME FROM
00:55:54EVER WRITING OF THE BOOK. WE HAVE FOLLOWED TRUMP FOR A LONG TIME.
00:55:58WE ARE BOTH UNBALANCED IN OUR APPROACH TO WORK I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY. PETER: UNBALANCED?
00:56:02MAGGIE:. A LITTLE OBSESSIVE. JONATHAN: I HAVE WORKED SEVEN
00:56:06DAYS A WEEK, 12 HOUR DAYS FOR A
00:56:10VERY LONG TIME IN MY CAREER. BUT THIS BOOK I THINK TOOK IT TO A DIFFERENT LEVEL.
00:56:16BY THE END OF IT, IT IS HARD TO
00:56:20EXPLAIN TO A READER HOW HARD IT IS TO GET INSIDE THESE ROOMS AND
00:56:23TO ACTUALLY GET VERIFIED INFORMATION THAT YOU ARE CONFIDENT ABOUT INSIDE THESE
00:56:27ROOMS. TO DO THAT PAGE AFTER PAGE AFTER
00:56:31PAGE IS JUST AN IMMENSE EFFORT
00:56:33OF REPORTING THAT BASICALLY KILLED BOTH OF US.
00:56:36MAGGIE: I HAVE CHILDREN WHO ARE
00:56:40OLDER THAN JONATHAN'S CHILDREN
00:56:41BUT THEIR WHOLE LIFE HAS BEEN A VERSION OF THIS.
00:56:46THIS WAS NOT A PERIOD WHERE IT LET UP.
00:56:49PETER: THE COLOR OF GOLD FOR THE COVER ON PURPOSE?
00:56:53MAGGIE: IT WASN'T OUR CALL. IT WAS THE DESIGN TEAM AT SIMON
00:56:57& SCHUSTER. GOD LOVE THEM BECAUSE IT IS BRILLIANT. JONATHAN: IT IS GENIUS.
00:57:01PETER: IF YOU COULD SIT DOWN
00:57:04WITH ONE MEMBER OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION FOR ONE HOUR UNFETTERED, WHO WOULD IT BE?
00:57:07JONATHAN: WE PROBABLY SHOULDN'T ANSWER THAT.
00:57:11I DON'T WANT TO NARROW IT DOWN.
00:57:14PETER: MAGGIE HABERMAN, JONATHAN
00:57:19SWANN, NEW YORK TIMES WHITE HOUSE REPORTERS, THE AUTHOR OF
00:57:23"REGIME CHANGE: INSIDE THE
00:57:27IMPERIAL PRESIDENCY OF DONALD
00:57:28TRUMP." THANKS FOR SPENDING AN HOUR WITH US ON C-SPAN.
00:57:32JONATHAN: THANK YOU. MAGGIE: WE ENJOYED IT.
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